Red Knights are developing a plan to buy United – and any new ownership model would aim not only to put the club on a sound financial footing, but would also put all of us, as supporters, at the heart of everything the club does.
Crucially, before they take action, the Red Knights need to know that they have the backing of United supporters. They’ve played their part and now we need to play ours by demonstrating mass support. We need to race to our first goal of 100,000 fans.
This is our moment – in the coming days and weeks we can change everything.
We have a window here – and we must rise to the challenge and grasp this opportunity. Or else we risk allowing the Glazers to throw our club’s future away. If we unite now at this crucial time, however, we will achieve real and lasting change.
This is no longer just about protest – this is now our positive movement that can make a difference. And we need your help to seize this moment. Add your support to the campaign and then make sure that all of your friends sign up as well.
There are plenty of questions we have as fans about the Red Knights and I think it would be naive to assume they will provide us with some sort of utopia. I am wary about their calls for fans to ditch their season tickets and am intrigued as to whether they plan price freezes/cuts. However, we at least have a group of people who are claiming they want to do right by the fans and who claim to be fans themselves. To the Glazers, we have always been customers and our club has always been a franchise.
For the Red Knights to have the total backing of MUST suggests that this lot might just be the good guys. I don’t expect them to ride us off in to the sunset but they impressed representatives MUST enough at a meeting on Monday and I am going to trust MUST on this one. Of course, it is up to you whether you choose to do the same.
Man Utd News 24/7
about time its getting started! Stand together Utd supporters all over the world!
under 100 people shy 90k as of this moment… Crazy increase in one day! Bring it on
Did this last night, checked today and so chuffed to see the support coming through, although we have MILLIONS of fans, come on people JOIN. LUHG.
i want to be the first one for this resque campaign…………………… i love united and will always a loyal fan… i am ready to do what am asked to .. for my beloved team.
we dont need the G. family………..hell to them…………… we never suffered such cristis in our history as united………..thanks to them… we are now…
kick them out
KICK THEM OUT………………KICK THEM OUT………………KICK THEM OUT………………KICK THEM OUT………………KICK THEM OUT………………KICK THEM OUT………………KICK THEM OUT………………
I joined up today.
Woah it’s certainly getting a lot of activity, gone up by about 400 in the last 5 minutes.
POWER TO THE FANS!
Am I United? Absolutely. 100%
Am I going to drop my trousers and bend over for a bunch of faceless Londoners, who I know nothing about? No.
Are some of you? Well, yes apparently, if some of the posts on this site are to be believed. And you can’t wait!
(Trying my hardest not to sound condescending here)
Don’t be so bloody naive.
I joined MUST a few years ago. I am from the Isle of Man and gave up my season ticket at the end of 2008 as the costs were just becoming crazy. We must grasp our chance now, but who will honestly say they will give up their season ticket this season to help get rid of the Glazers. We have to all stick together and hit them where it hurts in their pockets, or fill them with an offer they cannot refuse.
amazing the numbers MUST are talking about now, we can be a 100,000 in no time at all.
I just checked the web site, fuck me over 90,000 now LUHG.
i have sign up, not without reservation though.
do i want é glazers out? absoutely, no doubt. but to these so call Red Knight? Well, not very sure i muz say.
anyhow, one is responsible for his own action. Hope i have make é right decision.
Long Live Manchester United.
i did mine just before the arsenal game. More people gettin involved coz we now properly believe this can happen. Everyone get it on ur facebook pages, get ur friends in on it, i think 100 000 is easy, should get double at least
Like Scott said, i trust MUST on this issue before any of the pro Glazer camp and will give it my 100% backing.
LUHG
To start, I HATE THE GLAZERS and everything they stand for but please people can we 1st get all the facts about these red knights before we start showing them our support..
All we MIGHT be doing is bending over for someone who claims to be a United fan.. yes they have good ideas about ownership, but do we as fans know it will work? or will it cause our demise?? and how do they plan to settle the debt? will the be able to afford +-1.5 billion without loans? will ticket prices have to rise every year?? these are questions that must be answered before i show them my full support. I want a better ownership too!!
People lets not forget why we want glazer out. its due to the debt, the way we as fans are treated in terms of increasing ticket prices. and thats probably the main reason, therefore we should only back someone that will change these situations of increasing ticket prices and stealing our clubs money for there own use..
IF someone can point to me an article where the red knights are revealed, show how they will go about the take over and how our debt will be minimised and how we as fans wont be exploited then yes i’ll support them too but for now NO i know too little and for all i know they could potentially fuck us up worse. emotions should never be considered when dealing with business.. i know to most We aren’t a busines but in reality we are so that must be taken into account otherwise we may not be the club we are in the future.
LUHG always
How are the Red Knights going to pay back the more massive amount of debt they will need to take on to buy out the Glazers?
jonothan OGBE wrote ‘we never suffered such crisis in our history as united…’
goodness me, don’t know whether to laugh or cry…
Yeah I was thinking the same think about what jonathan OGBE wrote… chocking stuff from a so called fan…
Paul H, you happily dropped your trousers for the faceless Americans so I don’t really see a problem. Join the fight against Glazer.
Guys lets get someperspective here. I hate what the glazers are doing to our club. I in turn hate them for not respecting our history or fans. I hate that we are constantly left wi questions without answers. But can anyone actually tell me what the red knights plan is? So far i’ve read 20 ppl putting in 40mil or 40 ppl putting in 20mil each, with them then borrowing 200mil to attempt to buy out the club. Thats still debt. Ok not as much debt, and i respect that at least we’d have some owners who are professed united fans. But i still would like answers before i’d say it’s a good move. I don’t want us to be heading towards another disaster like the one we’re in now. But also can i say, it fills me with happiness seeing so many united fans committed to one cause. Think this shows the incredible support our beloved club has. Just hope something good comes out of it, even if it’s not the red knights
Some of the smears levelled at the Red Knights so far:
a) They’re not from Manchester
b) They might increase the debt
b) They might raise ticket prices
Nothing like the Glazers then, whom you staunchly defend?
scot the red – if the red knights are going to over throw the glazers they will need help from a real super rich backer who can put about 2 or 3 hundred million to help get the club off the parasitesif the red knights get 40 different rich backers. because at the moment they have no chance, I would love our club to be has you have said fans owned but they need more than 40 rich backers to put in 20 million why didnt they ask for 30 million.
Still tentative about the Red Knights though.
@Fred
Good point indeed!
@Tony Starks
he’s right this IS the worst thing to ever happen to our club United could be bankrupt…….oh wait that already happened to united twice well if it keeps up united could drop out of op league football………wait didnt that happen before but this is worse the glazers want to sell the name of old trafford ,whats manchester united without old trafford ……………didnt the club not have old trafford during ww2 because it got bombed. ha ha ha
jonothan OGBE comments made me laugh
`
i understand the club also had such a worse tragidy but i didnt want to write about it in a joke post
Costas – PPL are bashing the red knights even though these PPL are def united fans, its like saying we are not from manchester does that make us less fans. Yea like what the glazers have done which some of these PPL are defending them remember the cup scheme and the rumored ticket model where they want the fans to pay all up front for the season tickets yea they really are great ownerr arrent they.
What I’ve learned from the Glazer stooges on here:
- The Glazers might be from Florida, but that’s irrelevant to how they run United.
- The Red Knights are London-based. You cannot trust these non-Mancunians.
- The debt is not a bad thing. It’s easily managable. Debt can be a good thing.
- The Red Knights would plunge us deeper into debt and that would be disasterous. Debt is a very dangerous thing.
- The Red Knights are just businessmen looking to line their pockets.
- The Glazers are businessmen but they don’t really care about money. And they love United!
- The Glazers might have taken a few personal ‘loans’ out of United but that’s perfectly normal.
- The Red Knights could take money out of United and that would be totally unacceptable.
- The Glazers selling our best players and refusing Sir Alex funds won’t affect the team.
- Fans wearing green & gold scarves damages the team’s performance and must be stopped.
- The main thing people have against the Glazers is that they’re American. It’s nothing to do with the astronomical debt they’ve saddled us with, the ticket prices skyrocketing, resultant worse atmosphere at OT, the auto cup scam, oops, scheme, selling off popular players to make ends meet, low net expenditure, the world’s greatest club being forced to ‘wheel and deal’ and scrounge for bargains in the transfer market, Glazers paying themselves handsomely and taking £10m “loans” from the club, etc.
Out of the fucking fire and into the pan. “Doing it for the fans” my arse. Greedy fucking London men who could not give a fuck about United I dare say. Don’t like the Glazers but don’t trust these cunts either. Better the devil you know.
Just because there united fans doesn’t mean kosher, remember peter risdale, be careful what you wish for.
I should add to that, i want see the red knights plan before i commit to anything.
the fact they are Man Utd fans is not particularly a good thing.. Mike Ashley is a Newcastle fan isnt he?
Sometimes when owners, presidents, or other leaders love their club or country so much that they start meddling in all sorts of things
Like Idi Amain.. took over as president of Uganda cause the former government was corrupt.. so everybody loved Idi Amin for saving them..
in few year time he was more corrupt than his predecessors and eventually made his country much more harm than imaginable
and he justified it by his love for the country…
Mike Ashley has made some strange bad choices for Newcastle that just fucked the club over..
But dont get me wrong I hate the Glazers as much as much as the next guy.. but im just saying dont just look at those “red knights” as some heroes that are going to save us and be all good for the club..
They just might do us more harm
@rooney the new king
Trust me, this isn’t about the Glazers. My opinion hasn’t and won’t change about them. I just want to find out a bit more about the Red Knights before I shape my opinion. At this moment of insecurity for the club’s future, it’s easy for anyone to manipulate United fans into trusting them.
I wish them all the best.Hopefully they execute their plan.
Anyone else read.. “We will keep United for seven more years, say defiant Glazers”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/mar/02/manchester-united-takeover-red-knights
I don’t like the Glazers, nor am I that fond of the Red Knights. It’s laughable to think they won’t want any return on their investments. Even if there are 10 of them, that’s 150 million pounds per person.
From some of the comments on here I take it London businessmen are bigger cunts than any other type of businessman. Personally I think businessmen from Yorkshire are the worst.
The “Red Knights” – (who on earth gave them that name and why are we using it) haven’t made it clear at all what they plan to do other than try and buy the club.
I’ve said it a thousand times my gripe with glazers is the ticket prices, if I can’t afford to go or get tickets how the fuck am I supposed to support my team. I get continually pissed off with applying for games and when a Liverpool, Milan or even chelski come up. I get a “Sorry you’ve been unsuccesful.” When its Fulham, Burnley, Bolton, Wigan etc. No problem. Shady business from glazers regarding the sale of our match tickets. Never get away games even when a season ticket holder.
I’m all for getting rid of these parasites but it looks to me that our plight is being taken advantage of again, just like glazers do with our tickets. Tell us your plans before we back you, under no circumstances am I going to stop going to games. Fucking pointless. I am football fan and Manchester United is MY football team even if it doesn’t say it on our badge.
King Eric calls the Red Knights “greedy fucking London cunts who don’t give a fuck about United.”
Maybe he’s right, maybe he’s wrong. But replace “London” with “American” and you’ve got an accurate description of the Glazers, or as King Eric aptly described them, ‘the devils we know.’
Signed.
LUHG
NotoriousRedDevil Said,
March 3rd, 2010 @17:21
“From some of the comments on here I take it London businessmen are bigger cunts than any other type of businessman. Personally I think businessmen from Yorkshire are the worst.”
http://www.newsnow.co.uk/A/405230765?-11193
David gill comments about the red knights.
I will personally do anything i can to aid this cause. If there is anyone on this site reading this that is in perth, australia, then we should talk about getting some sort of rally together, something that will get publicity as being the first public protest/rally in ‘some far away country’. if the glazers realise how worldwide these protests can span then they will begin to think. we should aim to get asia involved. thats the lucritive money market these days and would only help our notoriety in the east. getting supporters involved all around the world will only make this club stronger and outline what this club stands for. we can use this green and gold campaign not only to oust the glazers but as a marketing campaign to further strengthen this club. there is an oppotunity here to be seen and heard to be fighting a just cause. we should use it.
There should be a donation system allowed for each person joining up with this campaign to help with the funds if they want to go ahead with it. On a smaller scale this is what has been done to good effect at my local club where fans pay a 5er a week into a kitty which helps to run the club and keeps fans having a say in the club also for their money a bit like a share system but not really a share. Again on a much smaller scale it is but if you had 100,000 people donating 20 a month to the buy United back fund. Thats £24m a year that could be cut off whatever debt there is. People do it here for the love of our club and if Manchester United couldnt get enough people to donate money then no club could.
fair enough people are questionin the red knights and their intentions, but lets not forget we got the head of must involved from the start and watchin out for the start, BELIEVE, the fans can own the club. Plus, coz they’re based in london, doesn’t mean they’re from london. Fred done is from salford
Deja vu all over again.
“We feel the [Glazers'] business plan was aggressive and the level of debt too high. That’s the clear stance of the company.”
“The level of debt required was not in the best interests of the club. As a board, we have a duty to consider any bona-fide offer but in this instance [the Glazers], we felt the business plan could be detrimental to the success of United.”
“Manchester United is a debt-free, profitable and sustainable business. The ground and training ground are complete, we have no debts and have £28 million in the bank.”
“Leeds and other clubs are castigated for their mounting debts. Then you have a club like ours being castigated for their financial strength. I know whose shoes I’d rather be in.”
David Gill on the Glazers, 2004
Does ANYONE know how I can get myself a green and gold scarf? Can one order them online somewhere?
I moved with my family to Denmark a couple of years ago, and I’m desperate to join in on the protest!
I just sign the campaign. I hope united fans worldwide will sign up as well. i got 1 question…did MUST have plan to have something like donation to initiate this takeover. maybe the fans who willing to donate something like 10 euro or so. i once subscribed to one united official club and paid around 250 ringgit malaysia (40 euro) but not renew it after glazer takeover.
i hope the the fans there in manchester and england or red knight especially can emulate something like barca where the fans participated to fund the club.
Its amazing some people saying the Red Knights aren’t from Manchester when both Jim O’Neill and Mark Rawlinson are. Is the Glazer’s propaganda machine already working?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/article7046386.ece
Is this “Are you United” something new or is it the same as becoming a MUST member. I’ve been a member for a good while, but is this something new I can sign up to?
Stretford972 – exactly. We only know the identity of two of the Red Knights but that doesn’t matter apparently. They’re all “London cunts” according to some people on here.
Businessmen are businessmen regardless of where they come from the fact they come from London doesn’t make them any more of a cunt at least in my eyes. Dark Knights are shifty to me as I don’t know what they actually plan to do not because they’re from London. Where they are from is irrelevant? At the end of the day Peter Kenyon used to stand on the terraces as a youth and look what he did, and he’s a manc and a cunt.
United4Eva – it is mate and unfortunately some people are falling for it hook, line and sinker.
Gill’s comments at Soccerex today:
“We feel the [Glazers'] business plan was aggressive and the level of debt too high. That’s the clear stance of the company.”
“The level of debt required was not in the best interests of the club. As a board, we have a duty to consider any bona-fide offer but in this instance, we felt the business plan could be detrimental to the success of United.”
“Manchester United is a debt-free, profitable and sustainable business. The ground and training ground are complete, we have no debts and have £28 million in the bank.”
“Leeds and other clubs are castigated for their mounting debts. Then you have a club like ours being castigated for their financial strength. I know whose shoes I’d rather be in.”
Oops, those are old comments from Gill. Sorry about that.
I am sitting firmly on the fence with regards to these ‘Red Knights’. I cannot blindly support anyone, trust must be earnt. More detailed information needs to be given, with assurances for the future on issues such as debt, ticket prices, transfer funds etc. I would also like to know how the club will be run with 40-50 ‘owners’.
@Scott
Can you please engage your brain for once on this situation. For starters WHERE are you getting the ‘Fan Ownership’ from? These aren’t people looking to buy the club as fans, they are looking to buy it for business reasons and the real fans will have NO REAL POWER.
All they are offering is a Golden Share, what this means is that IF someone wants to buy the club MUST as holders of the Golden Share would be able to veto it.
As for having MUST’s support so they must be good guys. Seriously this is MUST we are talking about, all they care about is feeling important and they are being bought with the ‘Golden Share’ in the belief this is meaningful.
Lets look at the Red Knights for a second. The richest of the Red Knights has a WORTH (and worth not cash in the bank) of £274 million. So the £20mill they are wanting from each to raise 1bn is hardly money found down the back of the sofa. Most are apparently only worth millions or tens of millions.
They have admitted that they will have to take Bank Loans to pay for it. And thats IF the Glazers accept 200mill less than the asking price. If its closer to the 1.5bn Harris has mentioned then the loans are going to be higher.
And these Red Knights can’t even be consistant. A couple of them say that the Bonds won’t be cleared another claims they will. The one who does reckons they will be able to get those who bought them to accecpt just a 1% on top of the ticket price meaning that they would have to pay another £514million to clear it. Ofc this is bullshit because the bond holders are currently getting £44million a year meaning they are on for over £800mill back by 2017.
So they have admitted they can’t afford 1bn without Bank Loans, so 1.5bn makes it even worse and they then have to either pay £44mill a season for the bonds and then find £500mill in 2017 or need to find between another £514mill and £900mill
Now do you think these bank loans will be paid out of their own pockets, do you think the money they invest themselves is just going to be written off by them OR are they going to expect a return. Remember most of these people are LONDON CITY MEN who aren’t in the business for giving money away.
I would also add that Harris has stated the idea is for a villa style buy out. THis means that the cost to buy the club will be saddled onto the club in the form of a loan from the buyers, this loan then has to be repaid with interest so that MORE DEBT being loaded onto the club.
@Fred
You sir continue to show you are the biggest idiot ever to walk the earth. I don’t think anyone you label as Pro Glazer has ever said they are great just that they aren’t as bad as they are being made out to be.
Now the 3 points you raise are 3 things which anti Glazer people keep bringing as reasons the Glazers have to be got rid of. As such when its brought up about the Red Knights what peoples point is (And you know this full well but you choose to act like an idiot) is that why are people supporting a group who are bringing the same issues.
“- The debt is not a bad thing. It’s easily managable. Debt can be a good thing.
- The Red Knights would plunge us deeper into debt and that would be disasterous. Debt is a very dangerous thing.”
Debt is about what is servicable. There is a big difference between the 500mill of the Glazers debt and What is in the best case 1.5bn and could be as much as 2.4bn. Again they have stated they will need a 200mill loan to buy the club for 1bn (The Glazers won’t accept 1bn). So thats something in the 20mill range ontop of the 45mill for the bonds BEFORE the Red Knights get to take penny back on their investment
“Deja vu all over again.”
Yes lets keep using Gills statement out of context. His statement WAS NOT on the deal that the Board later accepted. And this is what people keep deciding to ignore when using Gills quote.
“Stretford972 – exactly. We only know the identity of two of the Red Knights but that doesn’t matter apparently. They’re all “London cunts” according to some people on here.”
We know more than 2. Infact we know about 10 of them. And one of them (HARRIS) has stated that most of those are Londerners with a few being Northern business and financial men
@NotoriousRedDevil
“I’ve said it a thousand times my gripe with glazers is the ticket prices”
The Red Knights or TBH any take over won’t be able to lower these. The only way imho Ticket prices will ever fall is if the EPL stop their ‘combined’ TV right sale and let clubs sell their own. Thats something that helps Barca and Real keep ticket prices lower
“I get continually pissed off with applying for games and when a Liverpool, Milan or even chelski come up. I get a “Sorry you’ve been unsuccesful.” When its Fulham, Burnley, Bolton, Wigan etc. No problem. Shady business from glazers regarding the sale of our match tickets. Never get away games even when a season ticket holder.”
Gill’s comment in a recent interview
“The vast majority of fans of Manchester United should be happy with what we are doing and staying at the top of domestic and world football.”
How the fuck can we be happy with how the club is being run. Does he think we’re all soft in the head.
Woops missed the reply for the second quote
@NotoriousRedDevil
“I get continually pissed off with applying for games and when a Liverpool, Milan or even chelski come up. I get a “Sorry you’ve been unsuccesful.” When its Fulham, Burnley, Bolton, Wigan etc. No problem. Shady business from glazers regarding the sale of our match tickets. Never get away games even when a season ticket holder.”
Seriously thats nothing Shady on Glazers part. Its the same at every club, attractive ties get more applicants. Just look for example at the ticket sale boosts the teams whose stadiums are usually empty get when they play us.
@United4eva
No-ones saying that none of them are but Harris himself admits most of them are from London
Fred – We are perfectly entitled to our opinions pal without being offended and called names such as “carpetbaggers”. How would you feel if Fergie was aginst the move and decided to call it a day?
@McQueen
The problem is the information they do keep releasing ends up contradicting itself. Its as if they are just trying to say things to keep or get MUST and the fans on side. Even if they make a statement dealing with all the information you would have to question how much it was to appease fans who they seem to need to motivate to ‘walk out’ on the club.
I’ll use the bond issue as an example. Harris initially stated that the buyout would wipe out the debt. He then said the bonds wouldn’t be cleared. Now one of the other ones (whose name I can’t recall off the top of my head) is claiming that they will pay the bonds off at 1% over the initial purchase price (Which I don’t see the bond holders accepting when it will see them make around 5mill on their investment in the bonds as opposed to over £300mill
There is also the changing in funding. First Harris said 1.5bn was no problem, then it was 1bn np. Now its we can get 1bn but we need bank loans to make it
@ Wakey -I have to politely disagree with you on that one. Theres something called loyalty, 6 years of applications as a member and the only time I’ve seen as play Liverpool at Old Trafford is as a season ticket holder. I’ll admit I’ve only been going to Old Trafford since I was able to earn money with one exception. Then there was the iconic Barcelona game in 08 they took my ticket away from me and was unable to get another one DESPITE having a season ticket that year. They allocate a lot of the big game tickets to corporate. The biggest joke is I applied Arsenal this season was unsuccesful so made other plans to be away and THEN I get an e-mail just 2 days after being deemed unsuccesful offering me match tickets? What the Fuck? There is no organised policy regarding tickets they just do as they please. The prices may not come down but they should be frozen and the rate at which they have increased especially the £5 extra per round we get through in the Champions League is unjustified. Oh wait it isn’t, its helping to go towards THEIR debt. It gripes me when someone who is plastic goes to these games and sits their quietly cough cough *leads* cough cough. When I could be there making noise, how some people get all the big games by applying and I don’t get one that isn’t random at all especially when it happens 3 years on the trot.
If the knights give us their policy regarding tickets I’ll decide for myself if I back them until then I’m not sure. There’s 40 of these blokes what could happen? Look at dipperland theres 2 of them and they can’t even sit next to each other.
Quite rightly people are being cautious about this whole thing and waiting to learn more about the so called Red Knights and their plans; but there is also a feeling of momentum gathering around the campaign and the role supporters are playing in ridding the club of the vile parasitic Glazer’s, which I personally find positive and uplifting. I’ve met a few of the MUST lads and they’re an intelligent, decent bunch who are United through and through, this does not mean I go with everything they say, but I am prepared to listen to what they do say and seriously consider any recommendations.
Time for a little cautious optimism then, whatever happens next, it’s good to see many United fans fired up over this situation and every time I see the green and gold at matches, on telly, or around town, it bring’s a smile to my face.
Just saw the first bunch of guys wearing g&g scarfs in zurich, it starts to get big mates!!!
Mike Ashley is a Spurs fan.
lets stick to the football Scott. This is a very divisive topic.
Some posters wait for such a topic to come so that they can show off their financial knowledge and post long essays.
Actually, I think it is very important that this “Red Knight” group to share to all of us what is their business plan, it is easy to stir up emotions, but it is another thing putting work where your mouth is.
Do all of you seriously think they would spend billions of their own money but let the fans have a say in the club? It is like you buying a Porsche and allow it to be driven by some self proclaimed Porsche fan from the streets whom you have never met. In fact, are we even sure they are using their own money? Reminder to all that Liverpool fans initially thought their owners had used their own money to buy the club, but it was only after the take over that, they found out the money was borrowed. We need to be sure where the money is coming from.
Alot of questions need to be answered before we throw all our support on this group, I believe we should follow this with our brains, not our hearts. Too many unknowns, too much emotions, but let us not forget 1 thing, we did go through one of our most successful periods in history under the Glaziers.
Wakey – I’m happy to have a discussion with you about this but how about you talk to people with a bit of respect. Telling me to engage my brain “for once” is needlessly childish and insulting. Grow up.
To say all MUST care about is feeling important doesn’t make an awful lot of sense to me. I would say what they care about is our club and ensuring our club is in the best hands possible. If the Red Knights proposal was just the same as the Glazers, then MUST wouldn’t back them. That is common sense. You can make guesses about what the Red Knights will and won’t do and of course it is up to you if you would rather assume the negative. None of us know the details of what will or won’t happen if the Red Knights take the club from the Glazers, but we do know that Duncan wouldn’t support a cause that was going to put us in a worse situation than we are in now.
I totally respect your right to have a different opinion to mine but talking down to people is a really unattractive quality and makes you sound like a real cunt. Think on.
AIG – stick to the football? We won’t have a football club to speak of if we stay under the ownership of the Glazers, so I’ll stick to posting what I like. If you don’t like reading long essays or don’t enjoy posts of this sort, steer away from all posts under the “Reclaim our club” tag
Wakey > than all other posters on this site.
you know your stuff mate
Also, would the Red Knights have enough money left after buying the club to send Valencia to football camp for the summer so he can learn how to use his left foot? hahaha
i dont know what to think of this takeover talk. the red knights would have to stump up the best part of 2 billion pounds to buy the club and to clear the debt. but then who would own the club ?? certainly not the fans, but a consortium of millionares all vying for power which would be an absolute disaster. i may be completly wrong but i believe that harris is manipulating the fans by acting as the saviour of the club. im not in any way a supporter of the glazers but this could be a case of better the devil you know.
@ AIG
Don’t bury you’re head in the sand.
jesus christ almighty.Theyr’e all after your Kopeks dont you get it?Our manager is quite happy that will do me and if anybody thinks I am intending to boycott a mementous finish to this season dream on,
@ N R Devil.
Thats why I got my season ticket, got totally fed up of not getting the big games. I got E-mails telling me tickets available when only a day or two before I’d recieved one saying Unsuccesful, but never got a big game. I applied for every game season after season and only got 5 or 6.
NotoriousRedDevil – the ticket office have been up to sorts for ages – the News of The World were *allegedly* going to run a story on them that was pulled at the last minute. I also know from speaking to a mate that goes to the majority of away games that for some reason regulars are also not getting tickets as frequently as they used to either. You only have to look at last year’s euro final to see how the club bent over for the corporate prawn sandwich section – buying a box for this season guaranteed you final tickets.
if the red nights buy man utd it will erase the fucking debt thats all matters
for me so i 100 per cent.
love united hate glazer
i am asking the fans who live in manchester please no boycott
the team needs our support people are saying we’re less good than previous years we’re in march and can still our 19th league title
and the champions league and kill again some fucking blues jealous.
so come on united.
I’ve read all the posts on here
and the general feeling is both good and bad..
earlier i said not to back anything blindly. I stand by that, and until we become more aware of the situation regarding how the red knights intend to change our club for the better (that is change most things the glazers fucked up) then we should be very cautious.
I’m happy this movement is gathering pace and is a good thing provided that we remain cautious and think of the long term and not just the short term (getting the glazers out)
This is a very divisive issue, but lets not forget, we all on here cause we love united and want whats best for them so lets try respect each others opinions until we can draw conclusions from facts and figures provided by the red knights anyway.
98,000 just about to roll over !
1. On the relative debt levels between (1) Glazer status quo and (2) post-Red Knight takeover, it is a function of (A) what enterprise value (i.e. sum of the value going to them for their equity plus the total amount of current debt, which will not permit any money (other than the pre-agreed mgmt fees amount) to go to the equity before the debt gets paid) the Glazers would sell at and (B) what percentage of that purchase price the Red Knights would put up in equity (as opposed to newly borrowed funds). It is very safe to assume that (A) (the enterprise value at which the Glazers would sell) will be considerably higher than the original price at which they purchased the club; thus, the only way for the Red Knight debt level to be lower would be for them to have a very considerably higher percentage of their deal funding be in the form of equity. The greater the percentage of equity funding, the harder it is to generate a good return thereon. No one knows how the Red Knights would fund the deal, but I question the notion that they would put any more equity in than is absolutely necessary (i.e. like the Glazers in their original deal, it seems likely the Red Knights would also take advantage of whatever debt the current market could bear so as to enhance their returns).
2. On the ticket price issue, I question whether any owner will charge less than the amount that maximizes their revenue. Thus, to the extent ticket price increases have not caused (and do not cause) attendance to diminish in any meaningful way, then one should fully expect any owner to push that envelope. Obviously, it is very tricky to figure out what prices achieve the revenue maximizing objective (see e.g. the crazy world of airline ticket pricing), but, again, I think this issue is a push between Glazers, Red Knights or Arab sheikhs/Russian billionaires for that matter.
I think the harsh reality is that premier league football (at least at the top) is very big business, and it is unrealistic to think that a team can be successful at the top and not run like a business. I would be happy to be proven wrong and see the Red Knights come forward with a realistic financing plan that makes clear that the debt levels will come down significantly if they are successful and/or a commitment to not raise ticket prices.
@ Mancunian Red – Didn’t know that info mate. Cheers for that theres a few other disgruntled fans that appreciate it as well.
@ james21 – I initially did the same thing for 2 years, I was working 3 jobs and at uni but had free reign on the weekends so I didn’t mind. Eventually the cost of the season tickets became too high along with the cup scheme so every time I went to pay a chunk off my credit card I got an extra cup game per month on top of that. I had to give it up and I certainly couldn’t afford that risk now. Same goes for many other supporters, we become members again and our loyalty still gets penalised. Joke!
@ Esteban. On your second point, I know the prices aren’t going to be reduced now because attendances haven’t seen a mass drop. However,
- the ACS guarantees very little loyalty, as does carrying a season ticket and also as a member.
-Theres grey areas in our ticket policy and other clubs reward their fans. Ours don’t.
-There’s a ballot, a second ballot, then the £49 neutral stand tickets with all the away fans (Yes North Stand Tier 1 I’m on about you) become available 2-3 days before games.
-The over inflated prices on viagogo, thats just legal online ticket touting. -Supporters clubs fleece you as well I mean £80 for an away West Ham ticket when it clearly says £45 (which is still ridiculous). More legal black marketing.
I want assurances from the new owners on its ticketing policy, prices will increase at times I accept that. An increase in prices and a policy which is plain bullshit is just taking the piss. It all points back to the same thing debt, glazers etc. The guys need to give assurances to their business plan. Scotts convinced me some that MUST wouldn’t back them if they didn’t think it was right. The Knights still need to give more information to the fans than they have so far.
>How are the Red Knights going to pay back the more massive amount of debt they will need to take on to buy out the Glazers?”
The RKs will not take over the debts incurred by the Glazers. Payment of those loans are the responsibility of the sellers. not the buyers.
There’s a lot of nonsense being written here about not knowing what the RKs will do with the club if they get control. Look at it this way – if the Glazers decide to sell in 7 years time – as Gill said they might – and a Russian oligarch is interested do you really think the fans will be told about the buyer’s intentions before he buys? Will the supporters organisations be privy to the details of the buy-out? I don’t think so.
MUST is relaxed about the attitude and plans of the RKs so that’s OK by me.
Remember in the future MUST and other supporter groups may not have any input to a purchase.
RKs present the best available option for fans wishing to get rid of the Glazers.
Those fans who are questioning the motives of the RKs must really be happy with the Glazers using the fans to increase their personal wealth.
Not enough information out there yet on theses “red knights” for me to sign up just yet. If people think these 40+ people are going to just come up with 20 million quid each and not expect something in return then they are fooling themselves, At the end of the day we will still be in debt. Too many unanswered questions at this point but im willing to listen and to all our options.
Which is the better option
Debt
Debt + More Debt
I know which I want
ABM – Anybody But MUST
Its a bandwagon, and you are jumping on like a bunch of lemmings. MUST has been around 11 years prior to this. It took 11 years to gain just 35k members.
99748
Closing in on the magic number.
I say lets give them some time to come out publically with their proposals once they know that they have the support of the fans (that support being dependant upon their proposals). Bottom line is that anybody investing a large amount of money is going to want some kind of return. The chance of 50 individuals being willing to just throw away 20 million each is extremely unlikely. That said, to actually have a group of fans owning the club whose interest is the club, I would have no problem whatsoever with them having some kind of return through say a low interest rate or whatever.
The bigger question will be how the club would be run going forward. You can’t have 50 or more individuals being asked for their opinion on each decision. There needs to be a decision maker – maybe someone voted in each five years? Just an idea.
100,147
Just signed. i have been mulling over it for a while now, but I think I will put my trust in the Man Utd Supporters Trust. I reckon they probably know more than me.
@Scott the Red
I’m telling you to engage your brain because all you ever report on are the things which support your ‘Get Glazers Out’ view. I mean you are quick to report on the headline grabbing aspects of the Red Knights BUT ignore the rest of the information. Its bad enough that alot of those complaining about the Glazers and supporting the Red Knights refuse to read all the available information BUT you have a DUTY to do so when running a blog like this because you have an infulence on peoples opinions especially those who you are basically their provider of information
Where was your post about Harris going back on his initial Barca Style setup proposal. Where was your post when Harris stated that the Bond wouldn’t be paid off. Where is your post on the fact that NONE of the Red Knights have the money to be able to give the kind of money required to buy the club. Where was your post about the Fact that Harris has gone from saying they have the 1.5bn required, to saying they can get 1bn to now stating they think they may be able to get 700-800mill with a Bank loan making up the rest.
“To say all MUST care about is feeling important doesn’t make an awful lot of sense to me”
They have an agenda, that agenda is for THEM to be in control of the club. MUST have always complained about all the ownership structures, just as they did even before its formation
“You can make guesses about what the Red Knights will and won’t do and of course it is up to you if you would rather assume the negative. None of us know the details of what will or won’t happen if the Red Knights take the club from the Glazers, but we do know that Duncan wouldn’t support a cause that was going to put us in a worse situation than we are in now.”
You say its guesses BUT its not really guesses. There is enough information that has come out of the Red Knights as well as the ability to apply fairly basic business knowledge and common sense to draw accurate conclusions
Harris has admitted to the fact that the bonds WON’T be paid off and the Red Knights stated yesterday that based on the 1bn price over 200mill of that would come from bank loans. That 200mill will equate to an intrest bill of around £20mill a season and thats ontop of the £44mill of the bonds.
We also know that the Red Knight with the highest worth is £270mill but majority only have worths of millions or tens of millions. These people don’t have the £20mill each just to give away. They will need a return to be able to afford that and to cover the interest. Harris shows they want a return also when he says it will be done in the style of Villa where the buyout value is on the clubs books as an owners loan which needs paid back with interest.
MUST are simply letting their hatred of the Glazers and their desire to own the club themselves to be taken in without listening to everything on record.
There needs to be more realism and less idealism and we need to stop being taken for fools by Harris and co.
“I totally respect your right to have a different opinion to mine but talking down to people is a really unattractive quality and makes you sound like a real cunt. Think on.”
Despite getting annoyed by your reporting on the subject which would make tabloid journalist ashamed to have written such one sided puff pieces as well as getting annoyed at the way you let the few of us who try and bring some balance to the situation be constantly abused (Including being accused of not being United fans but Glazer paid posters despite most of us being accused of this having contributed more to this blog over the last few seasons than those making the accusation) then I think I have been pretty calm. All I asked you to do is use the intelligence and fairness you have shown when you have posted about other ‘dividing’ issues where you have posted responsible and fairly.
@redevil forever
Their official mouth piece has stated they won’t erase the debts and they can’t buy the club without some kind of extra debt added ontop of that. We aren’t talking about asking a billionaire for £10 here, we are talking about a group whose richest person is worth (worth rather than has ) £270mill and most have a few million and maybe tens of millions. These aren’t people who have 20mill plus just to give away. The Red Knights require loans to add to the money they will each get and some of these will need loans to get their share as well
@BrisbaneRed
WRONG WRONG WRONG
The Red Knights will take on the 500mill bonds. Bonds which they can’t just pay off at takeover for 500mill. They would have to pay a premium to pay them off early which Harris has stated they wont do.
Its only the PIKs that won’t be transfered to the new owner
I honestly think there is a Super Rich Buyer willing to Invest but he/she is bidding his/her time as this too could enrage our fans!
All I will say is that United we have got over 100k mark on MUST that is us you and me and the support of a bid is GROWING fast! So whomever or whatever the main source of the funding is will become more clear soon as the fans against the Glazers start to really up the ante! And I predict a quite turbulent few months but New owners next Season I just hope us the Fans get a say in OUR future! Scott I do support your Comment with regards to the Milan game We should have done something BIG TIME!
@Scott The Red …”but we do know that Duncan wouldn’t support a cause that was going to put us in a worse situation than we are in now”
Really? Tell me exactly how you know that please. Sorry Scott, but surely you above all people posting here have a big responsibility to stick to facts when it comes to the serious issues. Personal opinions are great when it comes to the team performance, or the merits of a potential new signing, but the statement you made above is highly, highly debatable and could be construed by some as vaguely sycophantic towards the MUST politburo. No offence intended.
And btw, your caption states “Back the bid for supporter ownership”. This is misleading, because that isn’t actually on the table today, unless of course by “supporter” you mean Harris and his hedge fund chums, in which case I stand corrected.
@Fred – I’ve nothing against Laandaners; I’m actually in the capital as I type this evening, so I have to say that!
And as for your point re: some of the RK birthplaces. I didn’t say that they were all from London, in fact it was me who pointed out yesterday that one of them was originally from Stockport (so by default probably has City tendencies)
@Wakey – Legendary stamina and thick skin, Sir. You have been abused something shocking on these pages over the past couple of months, but still manage to keep calm, stating the facts and providing useful background and context to some of the more complex issues. You deserve a medal mate. Patience of a Saint.
On balance now, I’m seeing a lot more supporters posting here who are questioning the motives and credibility of the so called Red Knights, so maybe we are serving a purpose. It would be tragic if the media, Harris and his hedgies supported by MUST contrived to mislead sufficient supporters to seriously destabilise the club during what could be another glorious period in the long, proud history of Manchester United.
On a very serious closing note, RIP Keith Alexander and Michael Foot.
Goodnight all.
Let’s face it. MUST have a chip on their shoulders about the Glazers that goes back five years. They have been dying for the opportunity to get their “revenge” and with the momentum that this campaign is gathering, they believe that the time is nigh that revenge will soon be theirs and that some form of ownership of Manchester United will soon be theirs (or at least some say in how the club is run).
I just don’t think that MUST are running this campaign solely for the good of the Club. There is a personal score that they want to settle.
YOU are the tools being used.
I’m not pro-Glazer but I’m not anti-Glazer either.
I hate the debt but I actually love the way they keep their noses out of every little thing that goes on with the club and for the fact that they are NOT on the news and in the papers spouting their mouths off about this and that every five minutes.
Manchester United is a big business and someone, somewhere will be lining their pockets from it. Whether that is the Glazers or Joe Bloggs matters little to me.
If you’re absolutely honest with yourselves, many of you will have to admit that you are really lending your support to something that you don’t really understand one way or the other and that your main objection to the Glazers is not so much the debt but the fact that they are Yanks who don’t know a thing about football, much less actually care about it.
In many ways, that qualifies them to run the club from a financial point of view than a die-hard supporter. Come on, hands up who would have splashed £50 million on a striker last summer?
THE KEY THINGS RED KNIGHTS NEED T OTELL US:
- what percentage is debt financing of purchase price?
- how are decisions going to be made? If you have to keep going bank to shareholders it could be as much of a bloody pain as a listed company and increase costs – so who will make the decisions and what rights to shareholders have, what types of things do they vote on, what happens if the major shareholders fall out or fight or start trying to take the club over and we have constant takenover nonsense and infighting
- what is their agenda – i.e. overall aim / business plan for the club?
-one thing to do may be to registed united as a charity – with all profit going to chairty before they come in if they can – that way they get 28% of their investment back from the gov and it means that the club is 28% cheaper to buy and does not need to leverage as much, all the money goes on players and any profit goes on charitable ventures, ofcourse that screws the other 72% they put in but hey true love for united – donate! Build them a statute – if 500,000 United fans could put £100 in that = 500,000,000 – or is it -anyway, whatever
The point is the Red Knights may be good but we need to see the details to know and we have to be aware too many cooks – United soup.
On a
On the note re non-Mancs investing – hey if this was a team of 11 local lads from Salford it wouldn’t be United and no one would be watching or care who owned ir – United is an international team of talents with a non-Manc manager which is why it is famous and it has fans all over the world, which is why it has television revenues globally that make it rish enough to be one of the best clubs – deal with it u pathetic blinkered cock-eyed, half balled Manc supremasists – just kidding – luv ya really.
If super-rich businessmen get super-rich by making money out of their business(es), doesn’t it stand to reason that any super-rich businessman that propose to take on United as a business would…want to…make money from it?
If that were the case, much as I rue the day that the Glazers got involved at United, I am struggling to see how a new group of corporate fatcats would be an improvement?
If we look at how well football clubs have generally been run by super-rich businessmen, throw in how happy fans have been with the arrangement, the track record is hardly glowing, is it?
To remain balanced, the Glazers as owners appear to have kept out of the day to day running of the club, Ferguson has had little interference. I think if you asked most supporters what their issues with the Glazers were, the answers would be: (1) The debt they have created, and (2) They are American.
Unfortunately, we want to go back to the club we had before it was sold, and that cannot happen.
The hard fact about the RK so far… From being 700M in debt, we might be 1b in debt shld their takeover succeed. Please think before jumping
I’m unsure about this Keith Harris Chap.
Didn’t he help finance the Glazers with a sponsorship deal? Some betting deal I think.
The Red Devil – Whilst I can appreciate where people are coming from with their doubts about the Red Knights. Lots of STs are and have been unhappy with the Glazers, hence the reason pre-matches I found myself listening to people considering giving up their season tickets, instead of the usual pre-match team selection talk etc. However, to say that MUST have orchestrating this anti-Glazer feeling in an act of revenge because they “have chips on their shoulders” (if that’s how you want to dumb it down) is naive beyond belief. The reason these people are unhappy isn’t because they’ve been brain-washed by big bad MUST, it’s because the Glazers are directly effecting them by pricing them out of the game through the yearly hikes in season ticket prices and the hugely unpopular automatic cup scheme. Another bone of contention would also be the fact despite us seeming having very little money to spend, they pillaged our club for 22 million last year in consultancy fees – not a bad wedge considering they “keep their noses out of every little thing that goes on in the club”.
Wakey – how much are the Glazers paying you for your propoganda and scaremongering? Entitled to your opinion of course, but cannot present all you say AS FACTS, anymore than the Red KNight supporters have all the information at the moment.
What we do know which has been documented, is that the Glazers couldn’t afford to buy our beloved Man United. They had to BORROW to the hilt, and put the best club in the world at the time ‘in the hoc’ to every Tom, Dick and Harry chancer! All this like Oliver, tramping around the world with the BEGGING BOWL. Bloody disgrace, and DAVID GILL allowed this, and is now squirming trying to defend the indefensible. Did he have Man United at heart when he lowered standards and allowed the Glazers to take our club by the testes, and squeeze all that good out of us, and plunder our profits every year for their own ends. Is it okay for GILL to keep lying (publically) sating over and over for so long that the Ronaldo money was available, but no value in the transefer market. Give me a break – and FESS UP Gill and Fergie! They have become GLAZER puppet men, and everybody knows it – respect, hell NO. I love what used to be Manchester United too much for that!
Wakey – telling me to engage brain is disrepectful, but telling me to engage brain for once is damn right insulting. We can talk like adults on here.
I want the Glazers out of our club and am happy to support MUST in doing this. If you don’t want to support MUST then that is totally down to you. I can’t get the Glazers out by myself, none of us can, and MUST is the biggest organisation of reds who want the Glazers out, so I will support them.
It’s not as if I have jumped in with both feet offering no criticism of the Red Knights (http://therepublikofmancunia.com/harris-needs-to-get-real-over-boycott) and I don’t think it will all be rosy, but the conclusions you have drawn yourself will not be on a par with the discussions that representatives of MUST had with the Red Knights on Monday. After those discussions, if MUST weren’t totally convinced then there is no way they would offer their full backing. They have a far greater insight to what the Red Knights plan to do than you do because they are going off one to one discussions, whilst you are just going off headlines. You have no idea if what you have read is accurate OR if what you have read is still accurate, as of Monday.
I don’t believe MUST are totally retarded and naive as you seem to do. I don’t think there’s any way they are blinded by hatred for the Glazers and will support any lost cause to get them out. They’re not idiots.
I’m not a journalist. I’m not here to write from both points of view. Do you understand the concept of a blog? When United play Liverpool, I don’t give a balanced account from both sides, I talk about my opinion. If you don’t want to read my opinion then please do feel free not to return.
Look at the closing line: “I am going to trust MUST on this one. Of course, it is up to you whether you choose to do the same.” I’m not preaching at anyone or telling people what to do, I was simply giving my opinion.
If you don’t like being “abused” then don’t come here. I don’t have an awful lot of sympathy for someone who was rude to me without any kindof prompt or provocation from me. I welcome different opinions on here but I don’t welcome posters who look down their nose at others for simply disagreeing with them.
Paul H – We don’t know the facts on this case, so if we were to stick to the facts, I wouldn’t be reporting anything about the Red Knights. I trust MUST on this and will write my opinion. My opinion is MUST wouldn’t put us in a worse situation than we’re already in because that would defeat the whole purpose of MUST.
The problem is @ Wakey. Most of the fans havn’t a clue what all this Glazer buisness is about its just like sheep following the shephard. Wear green and gold, buy your hats scarves shirts badges, wish i’d jumped on the bandwagon and got my Granny knitting her little socks off 24 hours a day I’d be enjoying a nice Holiday now. Fans will buy anything on match day just to feel part of it all.
Also I find on here that you disagree with somebody all hell breaks loose, ‘You C*nt You Tw*t words that aint necessary in a discussion.
The Red Knights will borrow money to Buy our Club or in their eyes a Buisness because it is a buisness to them. The Glazers Bought a Buisness that will make them Money whats wrong with that? They are not Utd Fans and the Red Knights are is that whats wrong? The Debt is manageable or the Glazers wouldn’t have bought the club by borrowing so much Money. All buisnesses are bought using money Borrowed from Banks, except if its Monsour @ shitty.
This protest is starting to remind me of ‘GET SWALES OUT’ ‘FORWARD WITH FRANNY’ A year later ‘GET LEE OUT’
All the talk of a ticket Boycott is silly, Cut off your nose to spight your face if you like but I won’t. Take your Money out of the club the turnover reduces the Club sell your best players to balance the books, Rooney wearing Blue No Thanks.
All Utd fans have a right to protest and I support the right fully But I don’t support this protest, Sorry.
@wakey
good man! The red knights are not trustworthy IMO. As much as I don’t like the Glazers, Harris and RK are definately not the solution. What I feel is that they are using public sentiment to make a quick buck.
@ AIG
“long essays….” Lol
@ Fred
hahahahaha….the way you make some of the points….real funny
@ The Red Devil
(just kidding!)
you’re partly infringing on my trademark! Change your username
To be honest I don’t understand this anti-Glazers movement. Why it’s happening now? Is a debt s’thing new? No, Glazers borrowed the money few years ago. So why they become public enemy nr 1 now, not, for example 2 years ago?
I don’t understand your love for Red Knights. We don’t know anything about their plans – how much they will borrow to buy the club, what will happen with our debts, what will happen with ticket prices etc, etc.
We don’t know who they are, either.
So be careful – don’t try change 1 bad owner for another
@ Mancunian Red
Apologies for “dumbing down”. I’m not one for writing five thousand words when a few will suffice. However…
MUST have been claiming all the credit for scuppering the proposed takeover by Murdoch all those years ago. When the Glazers came in, they tried to scupper that bid too. They failed and much to MUST’s dismay, they took control of Manchester United.
MUST want control of Manchester United (or at least to have a strong say in the running of it) for themselves but are pretty much treated with contempt by the people who really DO have a say on how the club is run. By getting into bed with the RKs, they believe that this will give them some form of power within the club when/if the RK’s takeover.
Now who’s being naive? All this talk of fans having a say in how the club is run is not going to happen either. The likes of Barcelona were BASED on this model, they weren’t recently bought up by the fans. Manchester United has become too big a beast for that to happen now.
Anyway, if fans had their way, what would be the first things on the agenda?
Lower ST prices?
Spend that £80 Million Ronaldo money?
So, you want to reduce income whilst at the same time increase outgoings but remain super-profitable and competitive on and off the field.
Now who’s being naive? Something has to give.
Season Tickets, unfortunately, are subject to the laws of supply and demand. Despite articles being published in the press recently of empty seats, I don’t see much evidence of it in the attendance figures with recent attendances being around 74,000 – 75,000.
In any case, attendance is not accurately a reflection of ticket sales. Some people will just not turn up for the match despite having purchased their ticket (and I do appreciate that in the case of Cup games, ST holders have not had much choice in this matter and this is one thing I also have an issue with).
If ST sales did start to slump significantly then the Club would have to rethink it’s pricing structure but at the moment, despite being vastly overpriced for the majority of fans, the tickets are still being sold and I’m afraid that that’s all the bean counters are concerned about.
The fact of the matter is (and the majority of fans cannot seem to accept this fact) Manchester United is not YOUR/OUR Club. It is the Club we support but it is owned by the Glazers at the moment.
I realise that this is probably playing with semantics but I see it as a common thread in many of the anti-Glazer arguments – “How dare they take £x Million from OUR Club!”.
Sorry but they own it and are perfectly entitled to take a salary or whatever they want to call it. To expect them to not take any income for themselves is also naive.
The Club is going to cost any potential buyer something well in excess of £1 Billion to completely take over and get on a sound financial footing but even that is a contradiction in itself because the money has to come from somewhere and to expect people to put forward that kind of money without it being classed as debt of one kind or another is also naive.
In other words, any investor will want a return on his investment.
In an ideal world, someone like Mansour who has billions to spare would come along, give the Glazers what they want and then hand over the keys to people who would run the club with the fans best interests at heart at all times. They would put up £100 Million for new players every summer and tickets would cost £5 (kids go free).
This wouldn’t be sustainable should the Mansour figure decide he doesn’t want to play anymore but it’s a nice thought. Completely naive. But nice.
You might not believe it but I am NOT pro-Glazer. I really do have concerns about the future because the ability to repay the debt is making an assumption that all other things will remain the same as they have been for the last 10 years or so (i.e. the Club will remain very successful on the pitch, the TV companies will continue to plough millions into the Premier League, likewise the Champions League etc etc)
If any of those things ceases to be the case then our position would be preacrious to say the least. I’m not happy about that. Winning trophies is obviously fantastic but when it is taken for granted to the extent that people are gambling the medium-term future on it then it leaves a sour taste and we all know about Clubs who have gambled on future success and found themselves in dire straits (Leeds, Portsmouth anyone?)
That said, I can only say that so far, the Glazers seem to be doing a good job and looking forward I hope to see a day when the debt is finally paid off and we are once again on a sound financial footing. If we can continue the level of success we have enjoyed whilst saddled with the debt for the last few years then what will things be like when the debt is finally cleared?
Or am I just being naive again?
@ Red Devil sorry… but I am THE Red Devil
I’m sure there’s room in hell for both of us though.
Isaidso – Yeah great comment pal. “Fergie has become Glazer’s puppet”. Do you really believe that? Disgraceful comment. Just because Wakey is giving another side to the argument you accuse him of been on Glazer’s payroll. Pathetic. Myself and others actually like to hear both sides.
The Red Devil – Fantastic post mate at 12.00
The Red Devil – The fact that we needed Ronaldo’s massive transfer sale to stay out of the red last season suggests that we can’t just keep bobbling along as we have been doing… unless you’re planning on selling Rooney for a transfer record next summer? And then who next the summer after…?
For us to carry on as we have been doing means we have to be winning the title and reaching European Cup finals every year which we should know is impossible.
There are real concerns with the fans allowing themselves to be exploited by these “Red Knights” the only reason these guys want in is because of the overall income Man Utd generates, they are exploiting the fans dislike of the Glaziers to be put in the same position the Glaziers are in, they will not do anything different, the PR will be more fan friendly but the results will be the same financially. The problem now is the supporters under the MUST etc banners are allowing themselves to become pawns in a media led battle in the belief that it will end in a fundemental change to the Club that will benefit the fans in the long run! There is no proof that it would happen even in the unlikely event the Glaziers relinquish control. The Media are not interested in this being a happy ending for the fans they see it as a way to get at The Glaziers and SAF for not communicating with them in the way they feel shows them due respect!
As a Fan I’m not enamoured of the Glaziers, as a Fan the Club have not done badly during their tenure up to now, as a Fan I am concerned that the supporters are being taken for roller coaster ride by external and disengenuous forces.
Shit I have been trying for the last 4 hours to sign up!! It must be overwhelmed!!!!!
@ Scott the Red – Woah! Easy tiger! *I’m* not planning on selling anybody!
I will admit that when those basic account figures were published in the press, I was pleased to see that we had made a decent profit but when the realisation began to dawn that it included the £80 from the sale of Ronaldo, my feelings soon changed.
However, since that time, I have had chance to think a bit more about it and I am just throwing this in here, I might be completely wrong.
However, there is one thing that is ALWAYS missing from these accounts published and perhaps someone can help me to clear this up a bit.
The word is: Tax.
With just those basic figures showing various ins and outs, how do we know that the club did not actually make an even greater profit than shown but deliberately spent some of the money (including the Glazers taking a wedge off for themselves in “admin fees”) in order to reduce the tax burden?
If the Club had made £100 Million profit including the Ronaldo money then would not Mr Taxman have come along and said, “Oooh, £40 Million for me… thanks a bunch guys, the office party should be bloody good this year”?
Again, I am no financial expert (far from it, I have £3.26 in my pocket as we speak… that’s how good with money I am!) but is debt interest also not tax deductable and so not the completely evil thing it is being made out to be.
I dunno. I think that this Summer and the next published accounts are going to reveal a lot about the Glazers and their business plan.
If we do sell Rooney and it is not for something in excess of £100 Million then I think we can safely assume that we’re stuffed. If, however, some serious bids do come in for Rooney from the likes of Barca, Real or even Citeh (please, god, no) and we reject them then I would rest easier that we are in good hands.
I genuinely believe that the Ronaldo sale was not motivated by the debt burden but I do believe that any sale of Rooney would be. Now I’m going completely OT so I’ll shut up.
The Red Devil – Tax isn’t the answer though really, is it? Whether the accounts include tax or not, you would like to think the biggest club in the world could avoid being in the red with a once in a life time world record fee like the one we got for Ronaldo.
“The Glazers seem to be doing a good job and looking forward I hope to see a day when the debt is finally paid off and we are once again on a sound financial footing.” – that can’t happen unless we make a mint in the transfer market every summer, as last year proved.
Of course we won’t sell Rooney, unless he ever became desperate to leave (the money his sale would generate is a drop in the ocean compared to the money we make by having him in the team). The point I was making is that you were claiming the Glazers were doing alright and we could keep on under this current regime, but the point is without another world record fee this summer, we will likely be in the red. That is absolute madness for a club like ours, who have already won one trophy and who are still in the running for the league and a CL title. But that is the reality.
@ Blotto Well said. The media may well have their own agenda but the most important for them is to sell papers. There’s nothing like a good scrap that drags on for months to fill those column inches.
@ Scott the Red Without being privy to Manchester United’s accounts, I have no way to answer that without resorting to the kind of speculation that anti-Glazers have been using as the basis for their arguments all along.
All I am saying is that we have been hearing from day one how they will do this and do that and none of it has yet happened.
What HAS happened is that we have probably had the most successful spell in the history of the Club. I am not suggesting for one moment that this is BECAUSE of the Glazers, only that their ownership has certainly not hindered us in any way on the field.
I do believe that you are making light of the highly relevant tax issue though. People were outraged to see the Glazers take out their “fees” but I would rather it went to the Glazers than the black hole that is the Treasury.
You’re right though and I am not going to argue for the sake of arguing. The fact that we have had this most successful spell and have sold a player for a World Record fee yet still only appeared to keep our head above water is not good. Not good at all.
The accounts for this year are going to be interesting and if they show that we have made a £40 Million LOSS then we are in trouble because clearly that is not sustainable.
I have a sneaking feeling (I know, great argument!:D) that that won’t be the case however.
The Red Devil – So the massive rise in ticket prices and the automatic cup scheme are what we should expect at all clubs? As far as I’m aware, no other season ticket holders are forced in to buying cup tickets.
We were told the prices would rise, that has happened. We were told the debt would increase, that has happened.
You don’t think we’ve been hindered? You don’t think if a considerable chunk of the money that the fans are paying in to the club had been spent on players, we wouldn’t be in a better situation than we’re in now? How many cup finals/semi-finals have we been in since the Glazers came? Quite a lot. That is down to the manager. How many cup finals/semi-finals might we have won instead of losing had we spent more money on our squad? Just because we’ve achieved brilliant things over the past few years doesn’t mean we couldn’t have achieved more had we not been hundreds of millions in debt and had more money to spend on players.
We’ve made European Cup finals two years in a row and still would have made a loss if not for the sale of Ronaldo. I’m not entirely sure where you get your “sneaking feeling” from tbh.
Anyone read about the fan being told to leave Red Cafe?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1255291/Manchester-United-fan-thrown-MUTV-wearing-green-gold-scarf.html
i’m struggling to make sense out of anyone who thinks the Glazers are anything but poison for this club.
were we in the red last year if it wasn’t for a world record fee for Ronny? YES
are we going to make a world record fee every summer for one of our players? NO
have the Glazers now organised the funds in a way that makes them able to take out larger sums for themselves? YES
and would they do this if they were willing to pump money back into the club to prevent another year in the red (as the world record transfer wont happen)? NO
i’m all up for us having mere opinion on this and for each of us losing rafa syndrome and pretending we have facts at our disposal because we don’t. none of us do, all we have is mere speculation.
i know nothing about the proposals being prepared by ‘The Red Knights’ as i don’t develop ‘facts’ in my head from stories written to sell newspapers. but what i will say is this..
i love this club and i refuse to stand by and let the situation continue. i don’t know what these Red Knights have up their sleeves but what i can see is what the Glazers have up theirs and i want rid. the reality of the matter is that our club is being used and abused and will eventually be shafted when the cash runs dry and we’ll be left with nothing but history. i’m not willing to let that happen. we have to make a choice now if we care for this club.
do we stand with the status quo and their mouthpiece Gill who we KNOW are fucking us over and bleeding us dry or do we stand with these Red Knights who we know little about but have the support of MUST with their 100,000 strong red support and chairmen in regular contact with these Knights??
i’m siding with the latter as even in the worst of worse circumstances they can only be as bad as what we already have. i’ll side with 100,000 fellow reds and take the gamble for something better.
United84 – Its got to be bollocks mate. I watched Red Cafe last night and there were plenty on there with Green and Gold.
Just popped on to the MEN site to see what they are saying on there about our situation. Talk about the blind leading the blind. It does concern me that alot of these people are backing the red knights when clearly they know fuck all. Calls of “Gill and CHARLTON the peasants” to be fired!! You could not make it up. Little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Believe me we could have ALOT worse CEO than Gill.
Scott – Who are these players YOU would buy mate? If Fergie thinks his squad is good enough then I have faith in him. We ain’t done too bad. What if we did buy “top names” what is to say they would have the United spirit? We may have done worse in that case. Who knows.
@ King Eric
We could have gone for Kaka for starters mate….he went for 50 mn didn’t he?
Just shut out the Value for money part for a moment……If Lescott can go for 22 mn, then Kaka is deffo worth 50 mn
we could have still bought Valencia, Smalling, Obeertan, etall and still have cash remaining….
Kaka was at a good age, is no tantrum throwing superstar but a devout person who wants to work hard….. he himself said he would love to play with Rooney at Old Trafford one day…. why not tie him up if you knew we were going to sell Ronaldo ? perfect replacement for Paul Scholes!
and top talent always comes at a premium mate….
Anderson, an unproven teenager for 19 mn, Smalling another unproven teenager for 12 (+ add ons) mn, …… the market itself is inflated mate, so if you want to buy decent players we will have to spend over the top money—-or else we can just wait for all the talent to be hogged by the likes of Barcelona, Real Madrid, manchester shitty etc coz their owners and managers have no qualms paying over the value!
Sorry for the multiple posts
but, before I sound like a glory hunter who just wants us to buy every top-palyer and become another Real-virus-madrid…I am not saying we should go for everyone and anyone, just that sometimes we may need to pay OTT for a player we really want..just like we did for Berbatov (who I love by the way!)
@ Scott the Red – Many things in the world have gone up in the last four years, mate. I am also totally against the forced purchase of Cup match tickets too. I am almost certain that something like that lies on the very edges of legality to be quite honest.
As I have said, I am not pro-Glazer but I am not exactly anti-Glazer either and certainly not to the point where I will jump on the bandwagon of the first bunch of people to come along and say nice things to me.
As for the debt. I am NOT a fan of the debt either and the topic of this thread was the proposed takeover by the Red Knights and as has been amply demonstrated by other posters on here, it looks increasingly likely that the debt will not disappear even if the RK’s took over. We would simply owe it to different people. There is even a distinct possibility that the debt could be even higher under the RK’s.
I’m afraid the rest of your argument about the success being hindered by our debt burden is a little bit … what’s the word? I’m sorry, my limited vocabulary is letting me down here so I will have to settle for the word… crap.
Are you seriously suggesting then that if we were debt free, we would have won more in the last five years? That is pure speculation. You will have to point me to the United teams of the past who achieved that when in better financial shape because I can’t remember them.
Are you suggesting that squillions in the bank guarantees success? You might want to tell that to Manchester City (or even Chelsea or Real Madrid, for that matter).
The fact is, a sizeable chunk of the money the fans give to the Club IS spent on players (I would go so far as to say that that is where the vast majority of it goes) but it is on the CURRENT players. I’m quite sure you’re aware that these lads don’t play for peanuts anymore.
Besides, I do believe Fergie when he says has money to spend but he has just chosen not to spend it and so far this season his judgement, as has been the case for probably 95% of the time over the last 24 years, has been proved correct.
If every time we fail to win a tournament, you blame it on the Glazers, you’re being a little unfair there methinks not to mention putting one hell of a lot of pressure on whoever takes over from them because I will tell you one thing right now, whoever it is and however much they bring, they will still not be able to guarantee success on the pitch.
As for my sneaking feeling. There are two columns on an accounts sheet and you are only paying attention to one of them. Wait for the accounts to be published is all I can say.
@Mancunian Red
Being upset about Season Ticket Prices doesn’t make it justified to throw support behind the Red Knights though OR to even consider doing what the Red Knights have asked and give up season Tickets to try and force the Glazers hand.
The season ticket price isn’t going to fall under the Red Knights, infact the amount of money they will be putting in with a significant amount of that being in both a joint bank loan and then each individuals borrowing means they will expect a good return on investment and will still have to pay the bonds yearly payments.
I’m not even sure they would remove the Automatic Cup Scheme because while its a horrible system its done so on a very valid basis. A football staduims costs are relativly fixed, every home game costs a set amount to operate and that cost is somewhat linked to the top capacity. If 30k turn up for a Carling Cup Match it costs the club the same as if 75k turn up for a big prem clash. So effectivly you are losing/wasting money if all the tickets haven’t been sold. Unless someone in The Red Knights has another bright idea that will increase lesser games ticket sales thus reducing the wasted expenditure AND won’t reduce the overall income then I’m not sure they would remove it as it makes business sense.
“Another bone of contention would also be the fact despite us seeming having very little money to spend, they pillaged our club for 22 million last year in consultancy fees”
Once again people are getting their Facts wrong. The amount they took out of the club was not 22million last year. The consultancy fees were in the 2million range (Less than the same kind of fees paid each year under the PLC) Your 22million figure is the total amount over the 5 years and that INCLUDES 10million of loans and as I’m sure everyone is aware a loan isn’t free money so that 10mill WILL be repaid with intrest (I believe the terms of the loans are an average of 5.65% interest which means they have to pay £10mill back + £565k for each year the loans outstanding)
@Isaidso
I haven’t presented everything I say as Fact. However the majority of my points are FACTS as they come from the horses mouth through the various interviews and statements the Red Knights have made since the bond issue.
Ofc you lot may not know these facts because Scott, MUST and most other united sites choose to ignore it. Even the media end up burying the revealing information at the end of a puff piece where they let the likes of Harris spout rubbish about a key point he wants to make and bury other less headline grabbing information at the end where alot of people won’t read
As for the so called Facts of yours. It wasn’t that the Glazers couldn’t afford to buy the club, its the fact that like anyone who is rich most of their money is tied up in assets so you either have to try and make these assets liquid or you borrow money. You decide based on which makes more business sense.
“Did he have Man United at heart when he lowered standards and allowed the Glazers to take our club by the testes”
He didn’t lower his standards. The Board (Which included Gill) had to listen to any offers and then its their duty to act in the shareholders interest and advise them on what to do. Inititally they turned offers down because the deal wasn’t in the clubs interest which is where the Famous Gill quote that people use comes from. However the quotes out of context for the final offer that the board did recommend. The initial offer and the one the board ended up recommedning simply weren’t the same, the first had debt attached to the club that was unmanageable the second was manageable.
“Is it okay for GILL to keep lying (publically) sating over and over for so long that the Ronaldo money was available, but no value in the transefer market. Give me a break”
Look at the clubs accounts. Thereres over 100mill in the bank. Thats partly the Ronaldo money. You are also forgetting that if Benzema had of wanted to join us so hadn’t dragged his feet waiting for Real to put a bid in then we would have bought him for 35mill (There was little point in United getting into a bidding war once Real did come in nearly a week after our bid was made and accepted because Reals top price as shown with their attempt to buy Villa was 45mill which is more than Benzema was worth so we would have had to bid over that to give Benzema no choice but to choose us). We also have to remember that Douglas Costa was also close to joining us but Germio wanted 14mill upfront and we wanted 7mill + addons upto 14mill. Germio then refused us a 2 week trial so we pulled out completly. So Valencia (17mill), Obertan (3mill), Diouf (atleast 2mill) gives us a spend of 22mill. Add in 35mill for Benzema and 7mill for Costa and we would have had 62million spent. Also remember that selling a player is a single cost but ontop of the fee of buying a player you have signing fees for the player and then wages have to be taken into account
As for not agreeing with the no value argument. Seriously where was the value to be had. Were Villa or Aguero worth the fees of £45mill being talked about. Was Ribery worth the £65mill price tag put on him. We bid for David Silva the season before and ultimatly had £25mill turned down and they were looking for more so was he worth something like £30mill+. Every club went crazy with their asking prices during the summer.
@Scott the Red
“I want the Glazers out of our club and am happy to support MUST in doing this”
See this is the problem with you, MUST and alot of fans. You are letting you hatred of the Glazers remove your common sense
“They have a far greater insight to what the Red Knights plan to do than you do because they are going off one to one discussions, whilst you are just going off headlines.”
Sure accuse me of going off headlines BUT I haven’t. I have bothered to take my time to read ALL the information I get hold of on this subject. Most of my points about the Red Knights come from the Red Knights own mouths with the rest coming from common sense when it comes to Finances. The Red Knights themselves have said they will only be able to make 700-800mill so we know if they get it for 1bn like they are now looking at that theres a shortfall of 200mill to be made up in bank loans (This is something they have said themselves so its FACT). The Glazers AREN’T going to sell for 200mill UNDER the market value so that loans growing.
Now lets assume for a minute you are one of the Red Knights. If you are the richest guy you have worth of £270mill. Would you be able to find liquid funds of 20mill from that worth to pay your cut, you probally could if you cash in some assets. BUT by the Red Knights own admission most of them are worth either millions or tens of millions. The 20mill hence represents a significant amount of their worth for some and in many MORE than their worth. They are going to have to take out personal loans or shift investments in which case the return they get has to be high enough to pay the Interest and put enough to pay off the loan OR it is going to have to pay out more than their other investments were making.
And again this is based on them paying 20mill each, if purchase price goes over 1bn either each of those either needs to increase their stake OR the Bank loan will be higher.
And they aren’t looking to clear the Bonds so the debts not even going and then the club is going to have a duty to give these people a good return OTHERWISE some of them are going to be in real finacial trouble with loans they cant pay off.
So please tell me using common sense WHERE this better finacial footings coming from when the debts of the Glazers are still there and we then have a bank loan thats more than the PIK to service and then 40-50 Red Knights who need a return for their investments
“I’m not a journalist. I’m not here to write from both points of view. Do you understand the concept of a blog? When United play Liverpool, I don’t give a balanced account from both sides, I talk about my opinion. If you don’t want to read my opinion then please do feel free not to return. ”
There is a difference between writing on football matter and something like this. You have a duty to provide people with a more balanced reporting, especially when you aren’t in a position to post without emotion on the subject OR have the knowledge to post a fair opinion. You say its up for people to make up their own mind SO LET THEM by providing them with all the available details and not just the ones that push MUST’s agenda.
Oh and yes you did post the one about Harris asking fans to walk out on Season tickets BUT while you have highlighted most of the ‘positive’ statements but haven’t done the same on the other side. So please you have alot of power with this blog so use it responably rather than a propaganda machine so that people can make up their own minds. And this doesn’t mean you can’t state your own opinion in them either.
@james21
On the City point, its eactly like that. We have seen it at Pompey with all their recent owners too and at Liverpool when they wanted H&G to come in
Thats the problem with Fans in general. They end up not looking at the bigger picture and just assume the Grass is Greener. With that assumption fans end up being able to be ‘conned’ like we see with the Red Knights. They may not put any additional debt ‘directly on the clubs accounts but they will add debt in someway that will need serviced. Again look at Villa everyone uses them as how a takeover should be done but theres debt in that club due to the takeover but it doesn’t look as bad. Its the same with Chelsea and City who may be ‘Virtual debt free’ but the preferential shares that their owners have in the clubs ensures a set dividend is paid to them every year.
As you said its business and with a business somewhere theres a form of debt that needs repaid.
@The Red Devil
“The likes of Barcelona were BASED on this model, they weren’t recently bought up by the fans. Manchester United has become too big a beast for that to happen now.”
And as Gill stated at Soccerrex yesterday about Barca and Real its not like the fans have any real say. They get a vote to elect a president for a 5 year term (or they choose to step down) and that person can do WHATEVER they like. And its not even as if they even have a choice in most of the Predidential elections as the cost of running is so much all the potentials usually drop out before the vote so they just get a choice of voting for the person or abstaining. So wheres the fan Control?
“and tickets would cost £5 (kids go free).”
People would complain then as well no doubt as getting tickets would be nigh on impossible as the damand would shoot up further
“You might not believe it but I am NOT pro-Glazer”
Thats what annoys me. If you don’t jump on the ‘Glazers are the most evil people in the world and the Red Knights are saints” you are Pro-Glazer or even worse on their payroll.
I don’t think I have seen anyone state that they thinl the Glazers are perfect owners or that they have no concerns over the debt or their ownership. All they are asking saying is that people need to take a step back and ensure they are realists and are have all the information
@Scott the Red
“The fact that we needed Ronaldo’s massive transfer sale to stay out of the red last season suggests that we can’t just keep bobbling along as we have been doing… unless you’re planning on selling Rooney for a transfer record next summer? And then who next the summer after…?”
Thats the holding companies accounts though. They have made a loss in those in every years accounts apart from last. These accounts aren’t the same as the clubs accounts and its where theres some confusion. With teh Red Knights we would see a company setup in a simerlar way and I would epect them to make simerlar losses on those accounts. The Clubs accounts show over 90mill in profit.
I would also add that the United Accounts are published BEFORE TAX but when the United figures are included in the holding companys accounts they may use a figure that includes tax. There is also a a fair amount of accounting write offs in the Holding companies accounts (Such as the 30mill a season in goodwill) and also business trasnactions like Interest rate hedging (Which wiped something like another 30mill off the Holding companies accounts)
Again though it isn’t like the Clubs making a loss. If you look at Chelsea, Liverpool, City these are clubs where the CLUB makes only a tiny profit or a loss each year and their holding company show massive losses on their accounts
“For us to carry on as we have been doing means we have to be winning the title and reaching European Cup finals every year which we should know is impossible.”
Actually the business plan is based on us making the Group stages of the Champions league
106,528 strong.
http://www.newsnow.co.uk/A/405437467?-11193
The glazers aren’t for budging.
Wakey – MUST are the official supporters trust. To believe that they have the best intentions possible for the club is not removing common sense.
As of Monday, MUST believe that the Red Knights proposal would put us in a far better situation than we’re in now. If what you’re saying is true it makes NO SENSE for MUST to back them. So either their situation has improved/changed or the information you’ve read is inaccurate. Had you been at the meeting on Monday then fair do’s, it would be hard to argue with you. But it’s easy to argue with you because you’re in the dark as much as any other fan… whilst MUST have a much clearer picture of what the Red Knights plan is. You’re guessing and drawing your own conclusions, whilst MUST had a meeting three days ago. Obviously they are far more informed than you on the topic.
You don’t understand the purpose of a blog if you’re telling me what I should and shouldn’t write. I am entitled to voice my opinion on the topic, as are you. Set up your own blog and then you can write positive and negative articles on the Red Knights.
I support MUST. I’m not going to pretend otherwise and write things I don’t agree with. If you look at the RoM links you will see I’ve posted a variety of articles which don’t agree with my opinion on the Red Knights. But I’m not going to write something that I don’t think is true on my own blog.
@Scott the Red
“As far as I’m aware, no other season ticket holders are forced in to buying cup tickets”
If the demand allowed it they would all do it because as I stated it costs pretty much the same to run the staduim full as it does nearly empty
“We were told the prices would rise, that has happened. We were told the debt would increase, that has happened. ”
Wow MUST predicted tickets would rise. What a shocker. OFC they were going to rise as the prices were ridiciously cheap compared to our rivals (And before anyone brings up the Londons more expensive, please explain why liverpool were more expensive and on average actually still are)
As for the Debt increasing. NO IT HASN’T. Where are people getting this from? The debts actually FALLEN
@Henke17
“were we in the red last year if it wasn’t for a world record fee for Ronny? YES”
I have said this to Scott already BUT No we weren’t.
@Red Devil
Kaka after his good year hardly set the world alight last year and for Real he has been pretty poor. Also Kaka was one of the players on Reals promise list, if they had had to they would have gone higher imho. Plus they were pretty smart by seeming to back off from Ronaldo and got the Kaka deal done first before launching their Ronaldo move. Perhaps if it had been done the other way round we would have tried for Kaka
And yes theres a premuim for us to pay, I think thats something everyone at the club will accept but we shouldn’t let clubs take us to the cleaners on transfers. It was bad enough that happened with Berba and that was largely due to circumstances forcing it (Although I think like Anderson Berbas fee is eagerated as the fee includeds addons which aren’t guarenteed fees. Just look at Beckham his transfer was £25mill but by all accounts not all the addon clauses were ever activated)
@Wakey Said
You have a point. The reason the 80mn from Ronaldo is in the bank and not used is because it makes commercial sense for the Glazers. By leaving it there United looks like a profitable going concern and they had to leave the money untouched to pimp the bond issue and try to re-finance the loans by inflating the value of United revenues.
I have no doubt the Glazers will quietly use that money now, maybe some will be on new players, but basically it was only retained, in my view as a finance lawyer, to sell united to bond purchasers and make it look attractive. Watch where it goes when the attention is off!
There may also be penalty or default clauses in the loan agreements that allow the finance lenders to step in or onto the board if United’s revenues show a loss or a particular degree of loss – there is a lot beneath the surfice.
Wakey – Stop showing yourself up. The Red Devil said we were told all sorts of things were going to happen under the Glazers and they haven’t happened. I was just giving him a few examples. I wasn’t praising MUST or anyone else for predicting the ticket prices were going to rise.
You wade in to things with you’re condescending attitude and end up looking like a twat. Too eager for an argument and too blinded by your anti-MUST stance.
Of course the debt has increased. It reached 700m+ this year. It wasn’t 700m before this year. Increase.
@Scott the Red
My information ISN’T wrong as it comes from the Red Knights themselves.
Seriously isnt of taking MUST’s word as gospel use your own brain for a second. The WORTH of the Red Knights combined is around 1bn. Based on 800mill from them and 200mill Bank loan (Which is what the Red Knights have stated) where exactly are they getting 80% of their combined worth from?
And again how much are the PIK loans for? The Answer is £138mill
How much have the Red Knights stated they will take a bank loan of? over £200mill
Which is higher? Oh wait its the Red Knights
And Harris has stated that the Bonds won’t be paid off. So we are swapping a combined debt of £647mill for over £1bn and thats without accounting for the money the Red Knights would want back.
Wakey – I said their situation has changed OR your information is wrong.
Did you hear what they had to say on Monday? No. Neither did I. Therefore you can blab on with what you’ve read as much as you like. You don’t know who was at that meeting, which new people they might have recruited since the latest things you’ve read in the press and how much money they have.
So keep quoting your stats to try and cover up the fact you know less about the issue than MUST… but you weren’t there on Monday so essentially your rants are worthless. I would rather put my trust in MUST who DO know about the situation than believe someone who isn’t informed, like yourself.
@Scott the Red
The statement from the Red Knights about the make up of their group came AFTER the meeting. So we have a decent idea what their total WORTH is (and again its WORTH and that’s important, its not Cash in Hand)
Now yes Harris’s comment on the bonds came before the meeting BUT we are talking about bonds that are worth 500mill in 2017 and between then are due payments of another 300mill in Interest. So they have to find 80% of their worth to buy the club and then between another 50% to 80% of their worth to pay off the bonds (So thats between 120% and 150% of their value)
So PLEASE tell how you can think that makes financial sense?
@ Scott the Red “Wakey – MUST are the official supporters trust. To believe that they have the best intentions possible for the club is not removing common sense.”
Perhaps it is. My original post on this topic was that MUST have their own agenda.
Is it not beyond the realms of possibility that maybe, just maybe, MUST are doing this with their own best interests in mind too?
You called me naive but your stance seems to be: “MUST have had meetings with the RKs and have decided to support their campaign to take control at Manchester United so they must be satisfied that it is the best thing for Manchester United because MUST are only here to do what is best for Manchester United”.
That smacks of naivete if ever I saw it. You’re putting one hell of a lot of trust in MUST there.
When someone like Wakey comes along and puts forward some of the counter arguments in the form of quotes from known Red Knights themselves, you don’t have much to really offer in return because you’re in the dark too. All you can come back with is yet more anti-Glazer stuff.
In fact, I will pre-empt you here. You are about to say that if the choice is to trust MUST or trust the Glazers, you will go with MUST every time.
Personally, I prefer to trust the man whose agenda is clear.
The sales of those Norwich City Scarves in the club shop are doing a roaring trade…talk about hypocritical actions. Your buying the scarves off the club therefore giving money to the Glazers…the irony!
Wakey – I wasn’t there on Monday, you weren’t there on Monday, neither of us know what the Red Knights are intending to do as of this moment. I trust MUST on the issue, you would rather draw your own conclusions despite not being fully informed. As I say, keep quoting stats for as long as you like, but you’re not basing your opinion of the Red Knights on the most up to date information. The Red Knights didn’t recieve MUST’s backing until the meeting on Monday. If you had been at the meeting, maybe they would have your backing too. I am happy to trust MUST on the issue until presented with reasons to disagree with them. Your out of date information is not a reason for me.
The Red Devil – I didn’t call you naive. I don’t think it’s naive to support the official Manchester United supporter’s trust. I have said several times we’re all in the dark, therefore my opinion or Wakey’s opinion matters little, because neither of us are informed. MUST are informed though, so that is why I trust them.
@ Scott the Red – Please accept my apologies. It was MancunianRed who called me naive.
There are wayyy too many Reds on here and I’m getting confused!
@5ForKeeps Don’t MUST have their own Merchandise Section?
@KingEric – errrr how is it a disgrace mate? I listened to David Gill squirming on sky yesterday, not looking comfortable at all IMHO. He said that Sir Alex was FINE with the amount of debt the club was carrying. Gill is himself too. How can anybody be fine with the amount of debt the Glazers have placed upon the club? Gill is saying what he has to say to keep his bosses (the Glazers) happy. You are not really trying to say that employees of big business (especially when they are in high company positions) do not have to toe the party line are you King Eric? Because anybody who works for a living knows you have to say and do the right things by the company when you are an employee. In my book that makes most employees puppets, IF THEY WANT TO KEEP THEIR JOBS that is. That is all I am saying. So not so disgraceful mate!
@Wakey – The Glazers couldn’t afford to meet the demands of the supposed manageable debt though mate – could they. The payment in kind interests is killing the club, otherwise we wouldn’t have had to go around the world with the begging bowl, and put up some of our biggest assets – Carrington not the least among them. One does wonder Wakey wouldn’t we have been more able to make the PIK requirements with the money the Glazers keep taking out of the club funds to loan to their grandchildren, and the handouts and huge dividens finances they take for themselves and their kids. Please don’t say that isn’t true mate, because David Gill admitted it is true in interview, but said all owners do that – YEAH RIGHT? Anyway respect Wakey, we just have very opposite takes on this whole Glazer businesss – only time will tell which horse backed comes up a winner eh?
Red Devil – Kaka? Come off it pal. Fergie is NEVER gonna spunk 50 million on a player is he and rightly so. He is hardly pulling up trees in the sub standard La Liga is he?
I also joined
I noticed on a football site(which linked me to here)had said in an article that united will have to sell a hefty 10 players to cover a 100m pound debt cuz of the glazer family
naaaaw i dont weant united to suffer
ronaldo already made quite a hole
Is it just me or does anyone else feel a little bit lost the longer this goes on. I read pro Red Knights comments and anti Red Knights comments, both sides make decent enough points. In truth, none of us has a crystal ball. Personally, i signed up to MUST to give RKs what they wanted, i.e. a show of support from us, now i hope they give us, in the near future, an open and honest explanation of policies on how they propose to take the club forward.
@ Scott the Red- you say MUST is the official supporters trust but quick Google search said the following.
“Due to the delisting of Manchester United from the London Stock Exchange, and to reflect its essence as a supporters’ trust, Shareholders United changed its name to the Manchester United Supporters’ Trust. In 2006 the organisation became an Industrial and Provident Society.
Though it is recognised by Supporters Direct as the official Supporters Trust for Manchester United, the Manchester United Supporters’ Trust is wholly independent from Manchester United, and is in no way directly connected with the club or its owners.
If this is true then MUST are no more the official supporters trust than me and and my mates are a supporters trust. If the club doesn’t recognize them officially why the hell should i trust them?
@ Willierednut
Interesting link. I was aware of the Chinese bid but not the Middle East one.
@ Red till I die
They don’t represent me either. Are they the ones that stopped the Murdoch takeover as well?
@james21- I believe they are the group that evolved out of the Murdoch takeover bid although im not 100% sure as i know fuck all about MUST to be honest. But just because they have 100,000+ members though doesn’t make then the “official” anything.
Id imagine just like a supporters club has to be recognized by Manchester Utd to be “official” so would a supporters trust. Im not against the supporters trust idea but id rather it was officially linked to the club in some capacity.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1255291/Manchester-United-fan-thrown-MUTV-wearing-green-gold-scarf.html?ITO=1490
What next?
I agree with getting the Glazers out and the Barca model is the footballing ideal but I don’t trust this other shower.
Gill for the nonsense he talks at times is right, how can 20 people run a club?
I will sign up for this great campaign but the right questions need to be asked here.
@Scott the Red
Keep dodging the questions why don’t you. As I said alot of the information about the Red Knights deal came from THEIR OWN MOUTHS. And this information is stuff which was announced after the Monday meeting (Or was stuff announced before the Monday meeting but claified in additional statements AFTER the monday meeting). So you can’t bury your head in the ‘Out of date info’ argument.
We know that they aren’t going to clear the Bonds and we also know a ball park figure of the makeup of the Red Knights which puts their combined worth at around the 1bn mark.
Now there is NO WAY that these people can afford to put the club on a better finacial footing. As they have said themselves they think they can raise 800mill (Down from Harris initial claim of 1.5bn and then his 1bn). And the Red Knights have said the rest will be financed through a Bank loan. So they don’t have the 500mill to pay the Face value off the bonds off LET ALONE the extra 200-300mill required to get the bond holders to cash in early.
The reason MUST are supporting it is
a) They think that being involved now will let them have more say later.
b) They think the ‘Golden Share’ is worth anything when all it does is allow them to veto any future takeovers. Personally I’m not even sure how good this is as what good is it having owners who want to sell but the fans prevent it but hey MUST will like that ability
c) They have no doubt been persuaded with talk about how the new borrowing won’t be attached to the club. The problem is how are these people supporting the borrowing they are going to have to do (Both the 200mill joint loan and the personal loans that some if not all of them will have to take)? The only way for them to cover the loans is to be getting a good return from the club
@Isaidso
Seriously mate if you are going to comment ensure you get the facts right.
The PIK’s aren’t killing the club because the club aren’t servicing the PIK debts.
On the bond issue. If you go back to 2006 when the Loans were initially refinanced the statements mentioned that it was always in the plan and further refinancing may happen. And thats all the bond issue is.
And with the bond issue they didn’t put assets up. Its a legal requirement in financial documentation to highlight the risks to the investors and whats assets are there to protect the investors money. Where asset sales were mentioned was in the RISK section only and was just fulfilling the legal requirement rather than stating this was something they were going to do.
Every football club in the country has the risk of selling teh freehold on their Ground and Training grounds but its not something they do unless they have to because it makes generating profit so much harder. Crystal Palace for example stated that it was the fact that they didn’t hold the freehold that caused alot of their issues
“One does wonder Wakey wouldn’t we have been more able to make the PIK requirements with the money the Glazers keep taking out of the club funds to loan to their grandchildren, and the handouts and huge dividens finances they take for themselves and their kids. ”
Firstly as mentioned above the club don’t service the PIK loans. However even if they did where are these massive loans and dividends. As of the bond issue the Glazers hadn’t take a penny in dividends. The money they had taken was in Management fees (~10mill across their ownerships) and loans (a further 10mill). These aren’t really massive for a 5 year period. Now on the loans moving money around an organisition via loans isn’t unusual. Its cheaper to borrow internally than goto the banks and no-one really loses out as the money will come back into the club. The Management fees are also normal, its less than the PLC paid in management fees over the same period od time. Any business will have Management fees taken out
“but said all owners do that – YEAH RIGHT?”
Show me a club where the owners aren’t taking money out of the club in some way?
@MUFCforever
“I noticed on a football site(which linked me to here)had said in an article that united will have to sell a hefty 10 players to cover a 100m pound debt cuz of the glazer family”
It was the Star Newspaper. As I mentioned on this site when someone raised it they are just readying themselves for a “See its true” story when a number of players are sold due to the new Premier League rules on Squad sizes which will see almost all clubs trimming their squad (You have to name 25 players over 21 at the start of the season, 8 of which have to be homegrown. Anyone over 21 not named in this squad of 25 can’t play)
The Red Devil – No, I am not calling YOU naive (you seem to have taken it REALLY personally, it wasn’t meant as an insult), rather that point of view was. What I meant earlier was that even prior to the green and gold campaign/The Red Knights people were unhappy with what was going on the United – this unrest hasn’t just been born out of MUST and the press kicking off and winding people up.
Wakey – You seem to think I am advocating the Red Knights, I’m not and also have reservations them. The point I was making was how the Glazers ownership has personally affected me, my family, mates and fellow scarfers I speak to at the game. These people are not talking about turning in their tickets in support of MUST, they are talking about it because they are being priced out of the game and/or because of how they feel the Glazers’ ownership is affecting them and the club.
You’re probably right about the automatic cup scheme and I also wouldn’t expect the price of my ST to be reduced either if new owners came in. But the fact STs have gone up on average by £400 since the Glazers have owned the club doesn’t sit well with me, and others, at all.
@LunG420
Its a bullshit story as others have pointed out when the link was posted before. There are people wearing G&G Red Cafe all the time, in fact there were many apparently on the airing where this is supposed to happen.
Its like the whole ‘Stewerd Sacked for Returning a G&G banner”, someone has done something wrong to justify a removal or sacking but rather than just accepot it they decide to turn it into some ‘Censorship’ issue
I salute the effort MUST & RedKnights give into the matter.
Those that might say they cant raise the money are just blind.
If you take 150 000 fans each donating 150 euros (similar to Barca model) it nets 2.25billion And if that wouldnt be enough for Am.leechers,… 200euros nets 3billion.
Glazers would be out in a week.
@Mancunian Red
But that’s the thing, Ticket prices shouldn’t be a factor in this whole movement. The PLC was on its way out and anyone taking over was going to bring prices in line with the likes of Liverpool, especially with the way football was going where its maximise income or struggle against sugar daddy clubs.
Its not great that fans get priced out but on ticket prices peoples anger should really be focused at the Premier league and the FA who insist on clubs selling their rights as a group meaning we get an unfair cut (Barca and Real for example got £132mill for their domestic TV rights and we get £52mill. So that’s 80mill more despite united rights being alot more of a draw. Additionally our TV money is reliant on where we finish in the league with 52mill being the top amount. Barca and Reals is guarnteed). If we could sell our own rights then maximising ticket revenue wouldn’t be as important and like in Spain the price could be subsidised slightly
@Hampy
Do your maths again please. Barcas membership brings in 22mill a season not 2.25billion
@Wakey – While im not against the idea of a supporters trust i would be against the idea of them having ANY kind to veto power with regards to a takeover, only way that could happen is if the trust owned 51% of the club which will never happen because the nobody else will invest in a club where they don’t have any say in how its run, Liverpool being the perfect example of this.
I had envisioned a supporters trust having a token stake in the club but working more towards maybe buying the old trafford or Carrington at some point, that way they could never be sold off by future owners.
@Wakey: haha damn small monitors. I stand corrected. Cheers.
@Red till i die
Nah they only need 25.1% as you need 75% to force a takeover. The golden share would only activate upon the club being sold where 25.1% would be transferred to MUST who would have to then decide if to sell. Effectively MUST saying no would scupper the takeover as no-one will want a club where MUST have 25.1% of the ownership and everything would revert to as it was before
makes perfect sense when you put it like that.
Scott the Red – well I have changed my opinion on the red knights. I am happy they are trying to push this forward but they just dont have the money and wont they put united in even deeper debt, because at the moment the debt stands at 507 million. Add the fact the parasites have reportedly turned down a huge bid from 2 super rich billionares, now if they turned down 2 huge billion pound bids what hope have the red knights got.
I want this to be kept going keep the protests going show your anger but if they are going to get any kind of cash together they will have to get a huge billionaire involved in te mix to help put this bid in place, because at the moment the red knights model is just not strong enough and its not going to change uniteds debt, yu also got to add to the mix the parasites other venters they have are not doing so well so united is their main source and I doubt they will sell the succesful one.
Wakey – Broken record. You’re making the same points over and over again. I’m not burying my head in the sand and I’m not avoiding any questions. I’ve made my opinion very clear. I support MUST in this. At present, the Red Knights idea is something in the pipeline and nothing official. I’m not going to get bent out of shape when essentially nothing has been done yet. If MUST go on to confirm they think the Red Knights idea is good for the club, then I will support them in that. You disagree with that. I get it.
I’m bored of saying the same things repeatedly. Clearly, you’re the kindof guy that doesn’t get bored of hearing his own voice…
Isaidso – Yeah fair enough mate. Of course all employee’s toe the party line I just thought the bit about Fergie was a bit off hand pal, thats all.
Wakey – yea thats a good idea sell our own TV rights which could in process kill the game in general, because I doubt smaller clubs could do that.
Wakey – As you have eluded to there were plenty of people in the Red Cafe last night with their scarves on. Not at you this mate but that is the FOURTH time I have said that now yet people still keep posting that story.
@RTNK
I have to respectfully disagree here. I don’t think any club will have a problem selling their TV rights to be honest. Even the smaller clubs have loyal fan bases. Besides, buying Hull’s Tv rights, means that you get the chance to show Hull v United, Hull v Arsenal, Hull v Chelsea and who knows? Perhaps a Hull v Stoke game on the final day could be a relegation 6 pointer.
The Glazers aside, I have always thought that Man United should negotiate their TV rights on their own. It would be a hell of a more profitable for us. If anyone is going to feel the pain if all this, it’s Sky sports because they will have to splash a lot of money to get the TV rights.
Also, if we get to negotiate our own TV rights, we might have a better chance at getting bettet kick off times. Especially after European games.
Costas – maybe it will but perhaps it would be a bigger threat to sky and the premier league. well if united did that most of it will go towards the debt has the ronaldo cash is propably spent by the glazers on the debt.
OOPS I ment to say the parasites
@RTNK
Yep, that could be what eventually happens. But it would generate a bigger profit for us compared to today and Sky’s monopoly.
Costas – I would love nothing more well except the parasites gone and united win the title this year is seeing richard sumdamore out of a job. Is it me or if united win the league this season it will be the greatest title we have ever had and isnt it about time united could some kind of special award if united do this and its about time we kept the premiership.
@ Wakey- Your opinions on ticket prices especially is absolute tosh. They weren’t raised to bring us in line with the dippers, they were raised to maximise revenue for these parasites which either line their pockets or go some way to service the debt that wasn’t there before. You justify these hikes unfortunately its killed Old Trafford. There’s a minute portion of proper supporters that sing from whistle to whistle. When you go to a game and constantly told by cunts around you to sit down and looked at as if you’ve molested every child in the country when you’re giving your team vocal support. That attitude inside the ground is of direct consequence of our current owners. God forbid we 76,000 people like you inside the ground. It really would be a morgue!
NotoriousRedDevil – you are completly spot on, how anyone can justify the cup scheme yea like who has the money to pay for all the compititons without taking into factor the cost of travel, united fans are not docters enginers or loto winners christ. good for saying the word parasites, buut the ronaldo transfer has really seen the movement kick off especially when non of the cash we spent to strengthen ths side.
@ N.R. Devil
Where do you sit?
My seat is in East stand tier 2 and we sing quite alot along with most of East stand and the Streford end. I chose this area because its nearer the away fans and a better atmosphere. I could agree with you if you sit in North stand lower or South Stand. North tier3 are louder than these two areas put together.
Yes the cup scheme stinks. I can’t make midweek games so on ocasions I have cut my losses being unable to sell my seat. Viagogo is a rip off so I won’t let them Rip fans off in my name, I’d rather loose the cash.
@RTNK
No doubt about it in my mind. It will be the hardest title win ever. The other two that come to mind, are the 95-96 when we overtooke Newcastle and the 02-03 one when we overtook Arsenal. But in both cases, the team didn’t have so many injury problems.
@NotoriousRedDevil
How is it tosh. As the PLC our ticket prices were under priced significantly compared to the clubs around us, most specifically Liverpool. Liverpool were selling their ground out without effort at a much higher rate and who ever the new owners we going to be when M&M effectively forced an end to the PLC by revealing they wanted to offload their shares was going to increase the ticket price as in English football this is the main revenue stream and Liverpool (And Chelsea, Arsenal and a few other clubs) were charging more so the club needed to bring it in line with them no matter who bought the club
The marketplace dictates the costs of things and that’s not just the supply and demand for your product but also your rivals around you.
Oh and you do realise you aren’t supposed to stand up don’t you. A few years ago part of the staduim was closed down for a few games because fans were standing up as it breaks H&S regulations so while its a stupid rule they are right to tell you to sit down
Wakey – Fair play to you for not refusing to shut up and fighting your corner despite abuse from some people. How do you know so much is what I would like to know, what do you do for a living? You seem to know a fair bit mate.
@rooney the new king
Its perfectly simple to justify the reason for the Automatic Cup Scheme. It doesn’t mean that its a good system but its actually harder to argue why it shouldn’t be done than why it should be.
I’ll ask you this if you were in charge what would you do to keep less appealing games in the likes of the Carling cup sold out and profitable without screwing over the season ticket holders?
I see the question of UTD negotiating their own domestic TV rights has cropped up again. About 3 or 4 years ago the question of all clubs doing this came up before a PL meeting of all the clubs. UTD voted for, the other 19 voted against.
The situation in Spain cannot go on forever. One day it will end and there will be a much more equal distribution of money. In Spain the money RM and Barca get is about 37 times what the smaller clubs in La Liga get. In the EPL the figure is about 7.
Some years ago UEFA forced the Italians to adopt a more equal distribution of money through collective bargaining with the TV stations. This meant that the big clubs received less money – hence they’ve been spending much less in the transfer market. AC Milan had to sell Kaka as their yearly loss was reported to be 78m euros.They couldn’t afford his wages.
The same will happen in Spain – UEFA will force changes. And RM and Barca will no longer be able to pay high wages.
@ MancunianRed – It’s not a problem but when I express MY point of view and someone calls it naive then I am going to take it personally because it was MY point of view. I only went off on one because quite frankly I find the willingness of so many people to pledge their support to something they know very little about naive.
MUST were against the Glazer takeover from the start and they warned everyone that it would be bad for Manchester United with all kinds of horror stories about what they were going to do with the Club (basically sell everything and leave a discarded shell before upping tools and moving on).
They then had to retreat into their shell for quite some time because, on the face of it, their ownership has not really changed anything. Two CL Finals, one CL Title, three Prem Leagues on the bounce, a couple of Carling Cups etc.
I do appreciate that the ST prices have risen quite drastically and with the Cup success we have enjoyed over the last few seasons, it has really kicked in on the ACS aspect of ST ownership too. I don’t mean to be frivolous about what is obviously a very serious issue for match-going supporters but I suppose you could say that it is the price you pay for supporting a successful team.
Our ticket prices are pretty much in line with the rest of the Premier League though and in many cases, we’re actually cheaper. I really cannot see any drastic change in ticket prices whoever owns the club.
I’m off on a tangent though…
The point I was making was that MUST had to crawl back into their shell while we were winning and everything seemed hunky dory on the outside but then the press started to publish those accounts with the £700 Million and Rising type headlines.
To add insult to injury, we had just seen our local rivals bought by a dollar trillionaire. After so many years of being able to look down at our “poor” local rivals, we were suddenly the ones who were skint whilst they had the richest owner in the history of football and a seemingly bottomless pit of money to go with it.
This was all MUST needed and since those reports, after years of relative silence, MUST have barely been out of the papers with their “We told you so, maybe now you will listen” type comments.
I sometimes wonder… what if the press had NOT published those accounts. Would there be this furore now? Would the years of Glazer ownership pass with no one even knowing the mess behind the scenes? Or would it, as MUST continually insist, have manifested itself externally to the point where it became obvious that something was very badly wrong?
Anyway. MUST are now riding a wave of outrage amongst the fans and they’re loving it. They have received more members in the last 48 hours than they have had in the last eleven years put together.
On the basis of what though? That they are best able to judge who is the best person or people to run Manchester United? Or who would be the best people to run Manchester United in terms of what it will mean for them?
Call me cynical (I am certainly not naive) but I don’t believe in the notion of altruism. Nobody does anything without some payback for themselves. Whether that payback be financial, power, kudos it doesn’t matter.
The fact is that for the last four years, they have been completely ignored and dismissed with contempt by the likes of Sir Alex and I doubt the Glazers have even heard of them, much less care for what they do.
But someone is now giving the impression of taking them seriously and has even lulled them into working for them and their bid to oust the Glazers with promises of power of their own within the Manchester United hierarchy. Clandestine meetings, mystery and intrigue. All will be revealed… soon. How very exciting.
The problem is that the more this drags on, the more that is being revealed about the Red Knights that suggest that they don’t actually have what it takes to oust the Glazers.
Perhaps one day some wealthy Sheik will come along and make the Glazers an offer that they can’t refuse. Will he go to MUST first? Will he bollocks. He will just march right in, slap a cheque on the table and tell them there’s a taxi waiting in the car-park.
MUST will be ok though… they have a mailing list of 100,000 members now and will probably live out their days running a fine Green & Gold Scarf Business.
@ Scott the Red – Shame on you for having a pop at Wakey. I know that you would rather not have anyone come on here and go against the grain but I have found his contributions to this topic to be the most insightful and informative on here. Today has been an education for me. Thanks Wakey!
@ Wakey – Wakey, you seem to know your financial stuff… have you any idea how much share dividends etc were costing the club per year when we were a PLC?
The Red Devil – “Call me cynical (I am certainly not naive)” dry your eyes mate and get over it or you won’t sleep tonight!
@Mancunian Red
OK
Wakey – yea if you are the parasites who only way to get money upfront because they put the club so far in the red so we get the money has fast has they can is fleecing the fans, but the reality is the cup scheme is a disgrace you can suger coat it has much as you like but still it is wrong. you can put a suit on a goat but its still a goat, and its give and take if you are the clubs owners and if they cared for the fans they would not use the cup scheme, the really is if they had loads of cash to spare and the club were not in the red do you really think the cup scheme would be introduced very well doubt it. You are talking for how the owners benifit through their eyes not the fans, and that is what seperates the hardcore working class fans from the corperate fans who can afford it, the difference is there are more working class than corperate.
Also it is evidence they dont have the money because why would they be so desperated to expect fans who work their asses off for living to pay for games they cant get to yes its a choice but its still wrong, our game is not like how they work in the US who’s ticket price range is so far from reality it is beyond a joke.
So you are saying is with the cup scheme if I am some member and I bought a PS3 I am forced to pay for all the add ons I may not need in the future but I still have to pay to benifit SONY. The glazers cup scheme is exactly how microsoft did with the Xbox 360 when that was launched, instead of easing the fans into the next generation console like sony done with the PS2 when they were compatible with PS1, they made the fans of the XBOX completly go away from the old console, the fans did not have the compatible option to play all the old games, and Xbox live is never free despite buying the game that benifits Microsoft not the customers getting ripped off. Yes microsoft may make shit load of cash it does not mean it is right NO.
It is the same with the parasites yes they propably make more money does that mean that is right no and especially at a cost have pissing on the fans, we us fans have the unwriten moral rule, treat the fans like respect and you will get it in return, the parasites clearly think the fans are complete idiots by making them pay for tickets they cant go to sometimes? for me the parasites are seeing how far they can take the fans for a ride to any depths see if they can go further than the abyss and clearly they have seen the results.
The Red Devil – glad that’s sorted then… Enjoy your shut-eye!
I am going to start a campaign to save my club.
To show my loyalty I shall resurrect the old colours of red and white.
@King Eric
I run my own small consultancy firm with some of the consultancy service we offer being of the financial nature. Its not my ‘area of expertise’ although I have some background and qualifications in that area and obviously running a business forces you to deal with accounting and financial aspects.
I’m one of these people though who likes to understand a situation as much as possible before making up my mind so like most people I was annoyed when the Glazers took over (And I still don’t think its perfect, far from it) I spent alot of time reading everything I could find about it (And still do) and also have used (or should I say abused) my contacts to better understand aspects.
Mind you if you take some time to read everything available there really is plenty of actual information and opinions and insights to for even those with no prior knowledge to get a balanced view that doesn’t see everything as black and white as ‘Glazers bad, MUST/Red Knights good’
@The Red Devil
I did read an article the other day which did address this. Due to the takeover no dividend was paid in the last year of the PLC but the projected amount using the clubs accounts at the time and the last dividend paid would have apparently seen around £30mill paid. How accurate this is I don’t know. It does seem a little high because my understanding from those who had access to the PLC accounts is that for the 2000′s before the takeover the dividends were in the 15-20mill range.
I’m trying to find the link again (I really should bookmark everything I read as going through my history is a pain) but haven’t succeeded yet.
@ Paul H – Count me in. Where do I sign up?
@ Wakey – That’s fine, thanks. I just wanted a ballpark figure really. The reason I asked is obviously because for Shareholder Dividend Payment we now have Interest Payment.
The difference between the two is obviously that whilst one might be lower, it is there for as long as the Club is a PLC. The other might be higher in the short-medium term but it has the potential to be removed completely in the longer term.
Yet another thing that is conveniently overlooked when reporting on the debt situation, it seems.
@rooney the new king
The thing is when it comes to the Cup Scheme is that if we get drawn against City the staduims full and the queue for tickets is endless. But if we get drawn against Brentford the tickets won’t sell out.
Now does it cost less to run the the staduim for Brentford game over the city? Not really (In reality it might a little as extra Police and security may be drafted in)
Now as a business this isn’t acceptable, its inefficient and a waste of resources and money. You have to as a business find a way to get over that and thats what this tries to do. I don’t think its a great system, certainly not from a fan pov but the problem is whats the alternative?
And the thing is with the tickets is the prices really are on par with the majority of the league. Do they really sell them significantly cheaper just because some fans might not be able to afford it and put the club on at a disadvantage? Then what happens when we can’t buy players as despite having a higher capacity we end up generating less from clubs main income source than many smaller clubs. Its really not as simple as you may want it to appear and imho even the PLC would have had to raise tickets alomg the same line to bring them to the levels of our rivals.
The idealist in me says yeah tickets should be cheaper and the club shouldn’t be bothering about maximising profit but about pleasing the fans but the realist tells me we are in a global marketplace and that makes idealism redundant
This is offtopic but on the console argument. Your argument makes more sense actually using PS3 and PS2 as there isn’t a signiifcant platform diffence between PS1 and PS2. When you use PS2 to PS3 and XBOX to Xbox 360 situation its a hardware issue. Both platforms are significantly different so to make them backwards compatible they require additional hardware. The PS3 included hardware for the PS2 compatibility but that and the BluRay pushed the prices up, The Xbox 360 decided not to for cost reasons and it kept the price lower and helped it fall in price quicker. On for Xbox live, One of my clients is a Social Game developer whos game runs on Facebook. They have 3million players and to handle those 3million the servers set them back almost £300k a year. I don’t know what the running cost is for the severs to handle the Xbox live system but it cant be cheap to run
Wakey – I know it was off the topic and it will still be but I used the cup scheme example with the playstation and X box because of microsofts disgusting behavior towards its customers when they launched the 360 in 2005 it reminds me of how the glazers are treating the clubs fans for me is unexceptable. You add the cost back then to buy a 360 about 600 same with PS3 but what I see with the PS3 is far better you add the fact no games for the 360 on its launched, there was not much out there they did take advantage of the time when PS3 was still getting built, so the 360 could get loads of exclusives and other major deals a great move but how they have treated their cutomers still angers me, the massive factor is the fail rate of the red ring of death of the 360 is still higher than the fail rate for the PS3 and still their delays replacing systems was bad from microsoft.
PS3 I did not really care for the PS2 compartable because the PS2 I can just use and it would not work javing compatable for PS3 because of how powerful and whats the point in using an old system its not good for buisness, add the fact there is blueray and free online gaming for PS3 I think I am getting great value for money which I dont get for the 360, now when I bring up the 360 say a new xbox 360 game costs about £40 you add Xbox live costs up to £70 a year of you want to renew Xbox live gold, yes PPL could say that is cheap but the principle that you are paying 40 to 45 pounds for a game without adding x box live fees it is not a great deal especially when the 360 system sounds like a jet engine still after its launch 5 years ago.
it is the same with this cup scheme, yes we can say uniteds ticket prices are still cheap but its fans hard earned cash being spent when they cant get to games which for me shows they are treating it customers like idiots. yes fans are selling their cup tickets but to expect fans to pay for tickets they cant get to leaves me with a bad taste.
Like I said I understand where you are coming from you are looking it through the buisness point of views through their eyes like devils advocat your playing, but for me the fans are the reason why football is what it is today and I find it wrong how anyone are taking advantage of the loyal red followers when they should be thanked. I have heard many PPL criticise the fans in the past for intimidation towards the owners but when they treat its fans the way they do then it is expected. The glazers are like microsoft the way they treat its fans and customers has long as they suck the life out of the fans they dont care. I am not completly battering ticket hikes that is not my annoyance why I am pissed off with them, they are still cheap when you look at london prices but the cup scheme for me is wrong, and it is saying fans are idiots and we can see how far of a ride we can take them
damn my username dissapeared tested the other one to see my comments work now
Wakey – well this will be off the topic again sorry PPL but the console wars and microsoft in perticuler is very simuler agressive buisness with how the glazers do with united and what microsoft does with the X box. I am using the XBOX and playstation angle because the way both companys have gone about their buisness.
Yes it made economic sence for microsoft to do what they did in 2005 because they were behing ripped apart by sonys PS2 success and SONY’S brilliant buisness practices were in and still are in a league of their own, add the fact microsoft took advantage of sony going into hybernation to build the PS3 and all the delays and faults in the PS3 before launch, they grab all the exclusive games magazine exclusives, pushing them streets ahead of SONY. But I hated the way both sony and microsoft did by making both consoles so expensive with very little titles, but microsoft who I feel are much like the glazers, the way they treat their cutomers with very little respect. PS2 perhaps a far more simple console than the 360 to have backward compatable.
I did not mind having no PS2 with PS3 backward compatable because I can use the PS2, it would make very little sence for SONY to use a old system when they are trying to promote the blueray compatable with the PS3, it would have more faults having all PS1 and PS2 backward compatable with already DVD and blueray thats way 2 much, but the WII does have the compatable but that is not in PS3 league for a power house of a system that PS3 which it a special system.
Also with microsoft? the fail rate of the X BOX 360 is still to this day the highest fail rate of all the consoles with the red ring of death still a continue theme add the system still sounds like a jet engine, and in the past their poor service to replace faulty systems had pissed me and many other cutomers off, and when you add XBOX live gold fees cost about 70 pounds a year if you want to renew which rumored could cost more in the future, you also add a game costs about 40 to 45 pounds on top of the X box live fees they are taken the piss. PPL say well that is cheap you pay the going rate but its the principle you are paying 110 pounds to play a game to the max. Atleast with sony you get freeonline gaming blueray and the PS3 system itself. SONY have taken a huge loss on the building of the PS3 more than microsoft but they still are giving one hell of a deal and there is even more depth to the PS3 and I love blueray it is sensationa despite the costs of a clueray DVD. Sorry PPL for talking about the consoles but the companys for XBOX was how the glazers run united especially with the cup scheme.
I understand why you said that Wakey that you are looking through the benifits of the owners its playing devils advocate, but still it does not give them the right to do what they have done well they can but I find it terrible to treat the fans this way, yes from buisness point of view it makes sence for them to fleece the fans to get has much money upfront but it is still wrong. To expect fans to pay for all the games when you look at costs of travel then there a line needs to be drawn, the ticket price hikes is not my real gripe and still the media fail to see that united are still well behind the london clubs prices, who for me they are not offering value for money who arsenal have fleeced its fans more than united at times, bar the glazers and their debt and the cup scheme the fans have had value for money in the past phew years.
@ King Eric
Mate…I was just giving an example as to some of the players we could have bought if we had obscene amounts of money to spend, thats all
The point being that if we had those kinds of cash to spend, why not spend it….forget about the about of money for a moment, if there is a player who suits the club and its requirements, go for him, just as we have done in the past…..
For a marker, if we could have spent 30 mn for a young teenager called wayne rooney, a tried and tested world player of the year will surely cost you much more than that….upwards of 40+ million….
As for him not doing too well in La Liga, I think he has been injured a bit this year and not been fully fit which has hampered his form. Besides, Sir Alex was prepared to spend 35+ million on Benzema and he too hasn’t done that well in Spain, does that by implication mean that Sir Alex was wrong to go after him? Absolutely not….so the point being, performances for another club do not reveal the potential performances that could have been achieved with United…I hope you get what Iwas trying to say..
Cheers mate!
The fact that people are paying alot more for tickets now and that that money is generally not reinvested in the club is what’s pissing them off. If there wasn’t a debt to service or the Glazers weren’t extracting funds from the club we’d be just as well of with lower ticket prices. Also, when you do pay alot for tickets, the least you would expect is to be treated with some dignity inside the ground.
I’m definetly with MUST here, even though I’m not convinced by these Red Knights just yet, mostly because of lack of information. If we could get anywhere near what MUST is trying to achieve, I’d be happy and I do think it’s possible. Be it with TRK or an other owner as long as their aims are compatible with those of MUST.
damn my other post did go through LOL
finally someone is trying to takeover the club