So, Arsene Wenger hasn’t won a trophy in over five years so thinks a tally of players who started their careers at Arsenal under him is something to brag about. It’s like the Arsenal fans who spend hours of their time on internet forums ‘showing off’ about how little money they’ve spent.
What do either of these things mean if you aren’t successful on the pitch? Not an awful lot. Tottenham Hotspur, Portsmouth, Liverpool, United and Chelsea have all won a cup since the last time Arsenal got to lift a trophy, and since their last title win in 2004, their league positions have been: 2nd, 4th, 4th, 3rd, 4th and 3rd.
Arsene Wenger was just 7 years old when Sir Matt Busby first won the league with his Babes, a team of young lads who would have gone on to dominate football, on a domestic and European front, had their lives not been cut short by the Munich Air Disaster. Sir Matt Busby set out the blueprint for how United were to run their club. “If they’re good enough, they’re old enough,” our legendary manager famously said. “If you don’t put them in, you can’t know what you’ve got.”
These ideals were picked up and carried through by Sir Alex Ferguson, who has ensured that a proportion of our squad has always contained young lads who have made their way up the ranks at United.
“I’m privileged to have followed Sir Matt because all you have to do is to try and maintain the standards that he set so many years ago,” said Sir Alex.
When United sold Mark Hughes, Paul Ince and Andrei Kanchelskis in the summer of 1995, replacing them with a load of young lads who had proved successful in the youth team, there were more than one or two raised eye-brows. When United lost 3-1 to Aston Villa on the opening day of the season, Alan Hansen was scathing about our chances of success.
Gary Neville (20), Lee Sharpe (24), Nicky Butt (20), Paul Scholes (20), Roy Keane (24) and Phil Neville (18) all started at Villa Park, with David Beckham (20) coming on at half time and going on to score our only goal, and John O’Kane (20) coming on with over 30 minutes to play.
That team went on to win the Double at the end of that season, an incredible achievement for such a newly formed team, particularly one that was so young.
It is because of this I’m absolutely amazed that Arsene Wenger has claimed that, without doubt, he is the best manager in the world at bringing through young players. Not just because of the success our young players had in 1996 and beyond (it was only three years later that this team won the Treble, something no other English team has ever achieved), whilst his young team have failed to win a single trophy, but because Ferguson has followed on with Busby’s blueprint for the 14 years that followed on from our ’96 Double winners.
“Take the list of the players who started here. Johan Djourou, where has he started? Here. Senderos, where has he started? Clichy, where has he started? Gibbs? Where has he started? Fábregas? Where has he started? Song? Where has he started? Diaby has basically never played before at the top level. Ashley Cole. If you go back, it is unbelievable the number of players who started at this club.”
Cole and Cesc Fabregas, a product of the Barcelona youth set up, are the only top players he has listed. I find it fairly insulting that he would list the following players as those worth mentioning at having ‘brought through’.
Djourou turns 24 this year and couldn’t get in even Switzerland’s World Cup squad. Senderos is dreadful. Clichy is 25 and is third in line for his position in the French national team. Song and Diaby certainly wouldn’t get in United or Chelsea’s starting line-up. Whilst Clichy is the best of the lot, he’s still not as good as Ashley Cole or Patrice Evra.
Still, when asked if he believes his record is better than any other manager, Wenger said: “Of course. There is nobody else in the world. Take the list of the players who started here.”
When asked about Sir Alex Ferguson’s record, he was very dismissive. “When I arrived nearly all their team had started [at United]. Not recently.”
Is Wednesday night recent enough? Wes Brown, Rafael Da Silva, Bebe, Darron Gibson, Gabriel Obertan and Federico Macheda all ‘started’ their career at United. If Song, Clichy and Diaby can go on Wenger’s list, despite the fact all of them already had at least a season under their belts playing in a first team in France before joining Arsenal, there’s plenty of players Ferguson can claim to be his too.
If Wednesday isn’t recent enough, let’s look at last weekend against Liverpool. John O’Shea, Jonny Evans, Darren Fletcher, Ryan Giggs, Federico Macheda, Paul Scholes and Darron Gibson all played, with Wes Brown on the bench.
But this is too vague and needs to be looked at in greater detail. So, looking at the most recent season, we will show how many players, who started their career played for Arsenal and United, featured in the Premiership last season. We will also look at how many games they played to get an idea of how important they are to their team. Finally, we will look at their average age, to see whether United’s career starting players are predominately the kids of ’96 or not.
Manchester United
30 players represented United in the league last season, 15 of them started their career with United. (Danny Welbeck, Rafael da Silva, Fabio da Silva, John O’Shea, Jonny Evans, Mame Biram Diouf, Darren Fletcher, Gary Neville, Gabriel Obertan, Wes Brown, Federico Macheda, Ryan Giggs, Darron Gibson, Paul Scholes and Ritchie de Laet)
% of players representing United in the league who started their careers there: 50
Appearances: Danny Welbeck 5, Rafael da Silva 8, Fabio da Silva 5, John O’Shea 15, Jonny Evans 18, Mame Biram Diouf 1, Darren Fletcher 30, Gary Neville 17, Gabriel Obertan 7, Wes Brown 19, Federico Macheda 5, Ryan Giggs 24, Darron Gibson 15, Paul Scholes 28 and Ritchie de Laet 2.
Total appearances: 199
Age: Danny Welbeck 19, Rafael da Silva 20, Fabio da Silva 20, John O’Shea 29, Jonny Evans 22, Mame Biram Diouf 22, Darren Fletcher 26, Gary Neville 35, Gabriel Obertan 21, Wes Brown 30, Federico Macheda 19, Ryan Giggs 36, Darron Gibson 22, Paul Scholes 35 and Ritchie de Laet 21.
Average age: 25
Arsenal
28 players represented Arsenal in the league last season, 12 of them started their career with Arsenal. (Gael Clichy, Alex Song, Cesc Fabregas, Abou Diaby, Nicklas Bendtner, Denilson, Carlos Vela, Armand Traoré, Vito Mannone, Kieran Gibbs, Craig Eastmond, Jack Wilshere).
% of players representing Arsenal in the league who started their careers there: 43
Appearances: Gael Clichy 24, Alex Song 26, Cesc Fabregas 27, Abou Diaby 29, Nicklas Bendtner 23, Denilson 20, Carlos Vela 11, Armand Traoré 9, Vito Mannone 5, Kieran Gibbs 3, Craig Eastmond 4, Jack Wilshere 1.
Total appearances: 182
Age: Gael Clichy 25, Alex Song 23, Cesc Fabregas 23, Abou Diaby 24, Nicklas Bendtner 22, Denilson 22, Carlos Vela 21, Armand Traoré 20, Vito Mannone 22, Kieran Gibbs 20, Craig Eastmond 19 and Jack Wilshere 18.
Average age: 22
Premiership players
If you then take a look at United players who were given their début by Sir Alex who are currently playing Premiership football: Phil Bardsley, Chris Eagles, Ryan Shawcross, Jonathan Spector, Phil Neville, Kieran Richardson, David Jones, David Healy, Jonathan Greening, Danny Higginbotham, Danny Pugh, Sylvan Ebanks-Blake, Frazier Campbell, Danny Wellbeck, Mame Biram Diouf and Tom Cleverley. Not forgetting the likes of Gerard Pique and Giuseppe Rossi in Spain.
That’s obviously not taking in to account David Beckham, Nicky Butt, Keith Gillespie, and so many more.
If you then look at Arsenal players who were given their début by Arsene Wenger who are currently playing Premiership football: Matthew Upson, Ashley Cole, David Bentley, Kolo Toure, Jermaine Pennant, Sebastian Larsson, … I’ll rely on Arsenal fans to help me update this section.
The important point to add is the earliest any of the ex-United players mentioned came through, with the exception of Ryan Giggs, was the start of 1995-1996 season, just a year before Wenger joined Arsenal. Ferguson hasn’t had an advantage where this is concerned thanks to him being at the club longer, these players have through during Wenger’s time at Arsenal.
So, whilst Wenger claims to be the best, whilst he says we should look at the list comparing players, I’m pretty sure he can’t claim to have given a début to 30+ players who currently play in the Premiership.
The future?
Manchester United Reserves: Premier Reserve League North Champions in 2010, Premier Reserve League National Champions in 2010, Manchester Senior Cup in 2008 and 2009, Lancashire Senior Cup in 2008 and 2009.
Conclusions
- Sir Alex Ferguson has more players in his current squad, playing in the Premiership, who have started their careers at United, than Arsene Wenger does players who represent Arsenal in the Premiership who started their careers there.
- Last season, players who started their careers at United played in more Premiership games than Arsenal players who started their careers there.
- The average age of players in the current squad who started their careers at United is 25. The average age of players in Arsenal’s current squad who started their careers there in 22.
- Arsene Wenger is wrong to claim that he has a better record than any other manager in the world at bringing through young players.
- Arsene Wenger is wrong to claim that Manchester United used to have a lot of players who started their careers at United, but recently, haven’t. Of the 15 players in our current squad who started their careers at United and represented us in the Premiership last season, 10 of them are 26-years-old or younger. To illustrate this point further, Fletcher, the oldest of this batch at 26, was 12-years-old when Wenger joined Arsenal.
There’s no denying that Wenger has done a great job of bringing through young players in his career but for him to claim that he is “of course” the best in the world at doing so is arrogance beyond belief, aside from being totally misguided. For him to also claim that since 1996 Sir Alex hasn’t put emphasis at starting players career is just ignorant. When you then consider that Wenger’s young players have won NOTHING, it just adds insult to injury over his remarks.
I’m not sure what has got in to Wenger recently, launching attacks on clubs and players on a weekly basis, and now this, but I would be inclined to agree with Harry Redknapp on this one, which is rare for me.
“When Arsene first came to England he was like a professor watching the game,” Redknapp said today. “All the other nutters were jumping up and down shouting and screaming, hollering and hooting and this man was not like those idiots. But it is affecting him now. He’s no longer sitting there. He is up there arguing with everybody. When you start losing a few games it all changes.”
All Wenger’s other odd behaviour is little to do with us but the comments on youth production could not be ignored, particularly when he directly names our club in his false claims.
Man Utd News 24/7
fuck me mate. get out some more.
@rellends Funny how you don’t even try to argue anything Scott has written? Shows how ignorant you are.
Great article, and wow, that was some really good research.
Did you expect him to say SAF is the best?you clearly don’t know the man.all top managers are egoistical believing they are the best,even Allardyce believes it too.you’ve produced many players without a doubt which is for around 24 years but you forget our academy was built when Anelka was sold to madrid which means its about 11 years old so its abit unfair to compare the two.our players are just starting to breakthrough and don’t forget the golden generations you’ve seen are very difficult to come by.
Some Random 1991 Facts:Althou He’s played in the higher level ever year of his career Giggs has 5 division 1 goals in 33 division 1 appearance because it was in 1991. Ryan Giggs is the man Sir Alex Has said ““There is one accolade which has yet to materialise for Ryan, although I trust it is only a matter of time before it does,” -
In 1991 Arsene Wenger after Buying big name player such as Glenn Hoddle, Jürgen Klinsmann and George Weah got sacked from AS Monaco for trying to talk to Bayern Munich behind Monaco’s back – noone in european football trusted the “man” so he got a job in Japan
scott the great
Frankly i am not suprised.wenger is an arrogant hypocryte.we have developed number of quality footballers yet you dont see sir alex make a idoitic qoute like wenger
jeez… you’re funny.
Wenger wasn’t restricting himself just to his record at bringing youngsters through at Arsenal. Henry, Trezeguet, Thuram, Petit and others came through his youth development at Monaco. Really no need to be so defensive. United have brought youngsters through too but not just as consistently high level as Wenger has done through his career
Not shocked as Wenger the poacher has lost the plot, being unable to spend big has prevènted him buying success for 5yrs and now he and his jealousy of all things ManUtd has got him to lose it…..go back to Japan you clueless french idiot. Fergie has got 36yrs of kid development and most of them plays/ed at high levels. Wenger is as clueless as they get. Fergie haves anew crop coming through ready to succeed whiles Wenger haves like 3 flops. Sir Matt Busby and Sir Alex Ferguson are the masters of youth.
If it wasn’t for wenger, your team would still be winning the league every year since 90′s. How boring would that have been for you. But he came in, won things, got us money, training ground, attractive football, stability etc, etc and let’s face it, the only competition that says you are top team in England is the league. For us, you and Chelsea, fa cup is just nice bonus of double. And don’t give me the day out crap. Cardiff, yes ( those years were fantastic) but wembley is awful.
Lastly, when the new financial rules kick in, it will be boring again because arsenal will have no competition at all.
Calm down dear, Fergie has been great too.
Good analysis although Wenger’s given himself enough rope to hang. ‘Arry Redknapp really has hit the nail on the head calling Wenger a nutter.
Question though – how do we define “started their career” at the club?
Gabriel Obertan, Ritchie de Laet and Mame Biram Diouf have all played senior football in a league other than the Premier League and we paid a transfer fee for each of them. Be good to clarify the methodology.
I don’t think we need to bend the stats to prove a point – Wenger’s record at developing young players into high quality performers is nothing to write home about.
Dear oh dear, its the weekend mate, things to do people to spend time with and a game to go to , pints with mates, and you are sitting obsessing over Arsene Wenger because you thought he said something against utd.
First poster got it right, get out and get a life and stop being married to utd, really sad sad article and waste of your time and life and shows obsessive tendencies as well as major immaturity and embitterment. never write on utd sites but god mate give it a rest its bordering on sickness
What did we expect ? Arsene didn’t see our squad.
I always thought you need to include Ronaldo in Sir Alex’s list of getting through young players. With Rooney, you always somehow knew he was going to make it, but with Ronaldo, he was just dismissed as a one trick pony who would fade into obscurity sooner than later.
Maybe Wenger said this because he didn’t think anyone would be sad enough to actually go to this much effort to prove him wrong.
And besides, if he’s not the best, he’s definitely one of the best, and that’s pretty good I would think.
Besides, stop worrying about jack wilshere. You can go out and spend another 30m on a Ferdinand or Rooney.
You are entitled to your opinion, and i won’t get into a war of words. But let me just point out a few flaws in your research.
Out of the 15 players you have listed as “Players who have started their career at Manchester United”, kindly remove Gabriel Obertan, and Mame Biram Diouf. Obertan has been in the Bordeaux senior side for three seasons, whereas Diouf has also had three seasons of proper senior football under his belt. In short, neither of those two would even qualify as “home grown” as per the Premier League’s rules, forget about starting their careers at United!
If you can include players like that in the United list, Arsenal could very well include Nasri, Eboue, Van Persie, and even Fabianski!
Anyway, leaving that aside, adding on to the 12 players you listed for Arsenal, kindly add:
Johann Djourou, Henri Lansbury, and Fran Merida, all of whom made Premier League appearances last season.
So the final number of players would stand at Manchester United 13 Arsenal 15.
Also, you have very conveniently left out players who appeared in the Carling Cup, FA Cup or the Champions League! If they were included, you could add Szczesny, JET, Watt, Coquelin, Gilbert, Sunu, Randall, Bartley, Cruise, Barazite, Senderos.
A better research would be including all the players who represented the club, in ALL FOUR competitions.
Is Wenger’s myopia catching on to the United fans?
Gotta hate tiny tears you are wrong!! George Weah was no big name when Wenger bought him to Monaco. he was playing Tonnerre Yaoundé in cameron.
Wenger has built a new stadium and kept the club in the champions league in the mean time. He has done this keeping the club in a strong financial position.
United and liverpool are poorly run clubs. If anyone of you could stand back and see whats happening here you’d shit yourselves. This will be telling in 5+ years time when Manure and L’Pool wont be able to compete.
Fergie will be retired quaffing even more whiskey and the club will be so laden with debth they wont be able to buy a player for a playstation. The interest rates they are paying at the moment are shocking and testimony to 2 different manager – One who will risk the clubs future for personal success and the other who cares about the bigger picture and the future of the club.
This is a good article – I don’t agree with everything, but there’s some very good points (I’m an Arsenal fan btw, Newsnow pointed me in this direction).
Still, you’re being exceptionally pedantic. So he’s not THE best developmental manager in the world. Fair enough. But you’d be hard pressed to argue he’s not ONE OF the best. Is there really that much of a difference? Slightly immodest, from Wenger, sure, but hardly an out-of-control-crazy boast. That there’s such conjecture around the issue, and that it is difficult to prove unequivocally that Wenger/Ferguson is the best in terms of young developing young talent, would seem to indicate that his claim has at least some credibility.
I doubt you would have written this if Wenger hadn’t mentioned Ferguson in passing – and that’s what it was, a couple of passing comments, whereas you’ve written an essay as a form of response. Whether he’s right or not, when you take a quote out of context and dissect it so thoroughly, you make Wenger’s argument seem infantile and undeveloped, when really it was a couple of press conference comments; managers do pressers every week, and I’m sure he didn’t feel the need to be explicit about every reason he has for believing what he said. You’ve discussed statistics (very good/convincing stats btw), but Wenger didn’t have any on hand. Are there stats out there more favourable to Arsenal? In all probablility, yes.
There’s such partisanship among football fans (for obvious reasons) that people seem unable to hear comments from opposition managers without taking them ultra-personally, or subjecting them to ridicule. Hence every reference by managers of other Big Four clubs to the club the fan supports is analysed forensically and usually added to a vault of reasons to dislike the manager making the remark. Would be endeavour to analyse Fergie’s comments in this manner? Somehow I doubt it.
For me, Wenger is possibly/probably wrong here, but to call his opinion “arrogance” is sensationalising the issue. I’m sure you have lots of legitimate reasons to dislike Wenger, but if you look at this from a more impartial perspective….is what he says really a ridiculous claim? I don’t think so. To cite his perceived ‘arrogance’ discredits an argument about the semantics of “youth development success”, as it trivialises the issue by casting aspersions on his character. Wenger can be wrong without being an egotist at the same time (I find most people think they’re right when they say something, and Wenger has conceded on many occasions five trophyless years is not good enough). Just as Stoke City’s players can make bad tackles and not be the the ‘cunts’ some Arsenal fans accuse them of being.
Apols for the long comment.
Jesus Christ man! It’s not really worth this much effort, is it? You’re getting worked up over nothing.
why do you seem more interested in Wenger than I am? I live and breath Arsenal through and through. today already I’ve been reading about 2 hours on Arsenals history and former players, in old programmes and stuff. I do this every day, and I dont give a shit what Fergie would ever say in an interview, likewise I hardly give a shit what Arsene says. get a life, and when writing a blog – dont be like a 14 year old. this is the most one sided blog I’ve ever seen, sounds like a bitter yid to me.
I have huge respect for Ferguson, he has said so much bullshit through the years. well, i would probably do the same. cant blame him. Wenger and Ferguson are human beings, media is doing everything to ‘feed’ the supporters, and you keep on taking the bait. you probably “loved” Mourinho too.
and more to the topic – if you think United have better young players than Arsenal, thats your opinion. not like all Arsenal NewsNow-readers care…
agree with lordhillwood, i doubt any arsenal fans or wenger himself give much thought to your youth policy. frankly we really dont care. You really need to go out a bit more often. I dont even think wenger’s comments were about your lot. The fact that all you picked up from wenger’s press conference is his comments about his youth policy (which is undoubtedly impressive) smacks of arrogance on your part, i dont hear SAF chumping at the bit to defend his youth system.
Hilarious, wenger points out that he wasn’t here when you’re outstanding group of youngster came through, you not only ignore it but then proceed to make an argument based on it! Are you going to go back and see what youngsters Wenger was bringing through at Nagoya while schools and the boys were hitting the headlines, probably not, and hardly a fair comparison anyway. Look, Fergie did great when he was on limited resources compared to his greatest rival at the time – Blackburn. He won titles with a great group of kids and all power to him. However after that and due to winning united brought in a policy of big money signings Rooney, veron, Ferdinand, Berbatov etc. As a result (and combined with continued excellence if the kids before them) the new batchlike Eagles have struggled and generally failed to come through. None of your players who have come through since have yet proved themselves top, top quality like the Beckhams and Scholes’, Fabregas and Anelkas and I include Fletcher in that. Good article great research but cant help thinking that if you had spent a bit more time considering at the start you may not have just put all that effort in, only to prove Wenger absolutely right.
As an example discrediting arguments, like I was saying above, I’m going to cite the post by ‘United Red’, who makes the sweeping generalisation that Wenger is a “nutter” based upon this these press comments, which as I say are hardly ridiculous.
Fans are hypocrites when it comes to this kind of petty namecalling/pot-shot taking etc – do you think it’s petty, idiotic and puerile when opposition fans call Fergie ‘Red Nose’?
I don’t see why objective analysis is so stigmatised that people feel they are only proper supporters if they call Lampard ‘Fat Frank’, Wenger ‘Winger’, Rooney ‘Shrek’ etc…so often you read on the internet highly intelligent, thought-provoking analysis that is compromised by an inexplicable insistence on falling back on these childish names and lame stereotypes. It’s not only often incongruent with the rest of their argument, but it’s also lazy and boring.
Arsene Wenger is a typical, ignorant cunt with his head up his arsehole. I’ve always said that players are judged on the medals they win and with that in mind, there is clearly no contest. The 1996 team for me was the benchmark, as we promoted 5 players from the youth set up into the first team, sold £14m worth of talent and still won the double, despite losing our opening game of that season. Fuck off Wenger you twat.
@all deluded gooners (never a more apt nickname I must say, well done)
What obsession is NOT: Scott writing a post defending SAF when the Whinger makes an unsubstantiated LIE that about SIR ALEX’s record.
Obsession is seeing fit to come to a UNITED blog to throw your hissy fit, and commenting that Scott should not blog on site that ultimately belongs to him. If you’re so clever, refute him on your own website. Do your own clever research. Do anything you want – just do it with your own deluded gooners.
Le Gooner – Fuck off you doughnut.
I love this
someone from team a talks bullshit
someone from team b proves it to be bullshit
team A have no comeback so they write “hey mr team b you need to get out more”
even thou the team A people are on a team Bs website
it’s hardly a surprise they haven’t won in 5 years as they haven’t had the money…we spent 30mill on Berbatov which is nearly twice their record signing and then with all the money chelsea spent…as i say it’s no surprise
”Obsession is seeing fit to come to a UNITED blog to throw your hissy fit, and commenting that Scott should not blog on site that ultimately belongs to him. If you’re so clever, refute him on your own website. Do your own clever research. Do anything you want – just do it with your own deluded gooners.”
Just no. What would be the point of refuting his arguments somewhere else? That’s why there is a comment section (a comment section that doesn’t state that fans of opposing teams are not allowed to use).
Lol scott, diouf started his career at fc molde and obertan started his at Bordeoux…
@dan: confine your racist comments to gooner sites – you sad muppet
dan says:
” I live and breath Arsenal through and through. today already I’ve been reading about 2 hours on Arsenals history and former players, in old programmes and stuff.”
then later tells Scott to “Get A Life”
Mate My Misses thinks I love United more than her- I dont think so but she could well be right
but lad if you have just sat there and read old programs for 2 hours you my friend dont know what “A Life ” is
Wenger’s a nutter n ‘Arry’s a nutter. No need to argue that.
SAF is the greatest manager in the world. No need to argue about that.
Mr Wenger you can buy all the talent that is out there but they will only be remembered for the trophies they have won..and the fact is you have won nothing for the past 5 years with your brigade of young players..you would think that,during the period of 5 years ,he would gradually build up a team and come 2008 that team would be a force to reckon with..But sadly that did not happen..IMO Wenger has not been good at developing teams..
The reason why everyone remembers the 96 Utd team is because that team consisted mainly of young players who had come through the academy and were able to win the double..If they didn’t win anything then I doubt they would be remembered..Not only that, but SAF has managed to develop quality teams,by bringing through players from the academy and also buying experienced players, every year which had the ability to compete for all the major titles..
Arsene Wenger gets more senile everyday. United Forever
@Bob
Fair play if they want to have debate. it’s stupid for them to come on to Scott’s blog to ask him to ‘get out more’ or that he’s writing rubbish. some even have the nerve to ask him to stop putting out such articles. what gives?
on another note, side tracking, but the chelsea steam roller has come to an abrupt stop today it seems.
If Djourou, Song, Clichy and Senderos are his idea ‘top players’, Wenger needs to get his head checked.
GHTT – Good to see you back mate and on form.
- Haven’t looked like winning a trophy since Viera left
– Spending every year hoping a bunch of fragile prima donnas can stay fit for more than three weeks at a time
– The only truly decent player in the squad is desperate to leave
– Constantly trying to convince the rest of the world that the ability to string five passes together makes you the best team since the ’70 Brazil team
– Playing without a goalkeeper for the last five years
– Seeking special credit for not having spent as much as teams who actually win trophies
– Claiming credit for the development of Phillip Senderos
If that’s what Wenger’s youth policy brings you can fucking keep it!!
@deludedgooners
stop ranting and making excuses like a prepubescent about not winning.. learn to accept defeat .. cos its understandable when you guys feel insecure all the time ….
comeback when you have won something SOMETHING … even PORTSMOUTH has a title as Scott point out …
for now tell wenger to stop carping and focus on qualifying for the champions league
Great post Scott lad. Fucking pretentious Arsenal. Wenger yesterday was bragging about the profit and comes out with “we have been continually in the top 8 seed in Europe”. Yeah great achievement son.
“Wenger is moaning like a drain because it doesn’t suit Arsenal”-Tony Pulis
perkyrthered – How was dan being racist?
Redbeard – Top post.
@ King Eric
When you haven’t won a trophy five years, you get desperate for something to brag about
@ King Eric
Cheers, mate
Since when did the Da Silva brothers start there career with UTD?
Check your FACTS, the twins started out at Fluminense and was bought by SAF as 18 year old young adults, no youth development by UTD!
With such accuracy as that we can take this article serious can’t we PMSL!
The ones who made their debut under Wenger who are still at the club include clichy, gibbs, djorou, wilshere. frimpong. Players like upson, eboue, song and diaby don’t strictly speaking count because they all made a handful of appearances for other clubs first.
@perkythered what was racist about his comment?
@King Eric & Lanaya,
He said “sounds like a bitter yid to me.”
wouldnt count diouf and obertan as having started their careers here. especially not obertan, thats an insult to bourdeaux. the 1 big reason why sir alex will always have the better record is because our young players won something.
Midoki – Wenger included Song, Clichy and Diaby as players he brought through, despite the fact all of them had played at least a season in the league in France before joining Arsenal.
I’ll direct you to where I mentioned this in the article: If Song, Clichy and Diaby can go on Wenger’s list, despite the fact all of them already had at least a season under their belts playing in a first team in France before joining Arsenal, there’s plenty of players Ferguson can claim to be his too.
So, I’m being as accurate as your manager is. PMSL ROFL LOLZZZZ OMG. Dick.
Correct me if I am wrong but the da Silva twins were contracted to Manchester United when they were a mere 15 yo teenager, playing in Brazil because they can’t get work-permit til they were 18.
No need to squabble…… Arsenal just got beaten at home to West Brom. Bunch of TALENTED kids got undone by a bunch of talentless lower table team. Just love the way Almunia assisted the straight shot into goal.
FYI – West Brom wasn’t even aggresive in their approach and neither did they park the bus,
@ Gooner fans
What happened today lads? Did West Brom bully ya’s? Did they kick you off the park? None of the sort, they out – played ya’s lol.
Just a quick observation:
There are more medals in the picture at the top of this article than there are in the entire Arsenal squad!
By the way, Arsenal fans, that silver thing Wayne Rooney is holding is called a trophy.
PissedOffRed – Read my comment above yours.
You get them for winning leagues, cups etc.
Generally speaking, they are not given out for having the most French teenagers in your squad or boring everyone to death by telling them how little money you spend or how you play such pretty football.
Wenger would be sacked if he managed a big club,.this guy is the most overrated manager ever in the british game,never retained the league or won the european cup…..and can,t handle english players when did he last buy an english player?
Rumour has it, Cesc Fabregas would like to touch one someday – that’s why he is leaving you!
Said it before, but until Wenger wins the champions league and wins back to back premierships, then gooners can come on here and give us proper banter, until then, do one.
what is the whole point of this article??
i would rather read something nice about utd than these nonsense stats you post time after time implying how all other clubs,players,managers are crap.
Dear Scott,as usual good article,fantastic work went into it .
Just wanted to add something,there is a strong possibilty following Fergie/Gill making the decision in 2005,that to counter the kamikaze spending of others,Manutd will stick to its principles of finance internal rules and expand on its youth policy.
The result ,there is a possibility starting with Jonny Evans 2 years ago ,give it 5 years at least,Manutd could produce minimum 18 players into the first team . Players who have come thru the traditional way and players like Rafael into the reserves, and Nani signed as a very young player.Fergie just said the next 8 years is good with thier planning.
The truth wud be a player must keep improving and not all will make it holds thru,example Rossi n Pique , both maybe more cos of circumstances than ability but this players now are that good and space seems to be created for them to make progress.
Jonny,Darron,Macheda,Wellbeck,Rafael,Fabio,Nani,Anderson,Hernandez,Mame,Smalling,Bebe,Corry,Joshua,Cofie,Magnus,Cleverly,David de Gea,Steven Defour for starters. LOL, I want the last 2 at Manutd. Pls ‘GOD’.
cheers.tq
@ swapnil
Everyone else is crap, we are UNITED, ‘not arrogant, just better’
Scott,
Great article and loved the stats, cheers.
Just as usual , just crapping .. They never talks about football , always CRAPPING !
Talking about beautiful football , even been always f*** by stronger teams like when we beated them twice with the same way and they were just stupid loser , barca , chelsea matches , even lately by the city.
Talking about the future and about the financial staff in the future , and you see just failures every season with the same reasons : Webb , luck , referee’s staff , Almunia , bla bla bla
Mr Scott , you don’t even have to compare between the ” SIR ” alex ferguson and mr ” bla bla wenger ” .. Just compare between their trophies , their strategy ,, Just uncomparable !
Go on Mr Scott , really amazing topic , I have nearly finished the translation of this Topic to our arabic forum ..
* Advice ; Don;t try to convince people who think Diaby is better than scholes !
Kind Regards
As an Arsenal fan, I’d just like to say what an absoultely fantastic blog article this is, probably the only time I have or will ever read something well researched from a United fan. Obviously I’m not inclined to give you too many compliments, other than to say Wenger might be slightly surprised to read some of this stuff himself, especially the point on games played last season, although I’d suppose his argument wouldn’t be to include players such as Giggs, Scholes and Gary Neville in that group of statistics due to them not recently coming through the youth system.
The fact is that Wenger’s comments will only stand up as much to us Arsenal fans as they will to you guys if this bunch of kids win something. He mentions Senderos in that group of young players, and I think that is a bit rich considering his ability on the pitch and medals (one of the few old enough to have medals) certainly not won through his own merits.
My personal opinion is that our current bunch of kids are a lot better than yours in terms of ability, I don’t feel the likes of Gibson, Fabio and Macheda have anything on comparative players such as Wilshere, Gibbs and Bendtner. Yet, whilst they might have something special pn the football ability side, a lot of Arsenal fans feel they simply either lack the personal desire, or the support from older players, to back this up with trophies. And it appears this is the one area by which wenger doesn’t wish to be judged…
@ Kris
“I don’t feel the likes of , Fabio and Macheda have anything on comparative players such as Wilshere, Gibbs and Bendtner”
Bendtner? Really? That’s your opinion, mate, and you’re entitled to it but I’d take Tom Cleverly over all three of yours.
Regardless of who has brought on the most players and been the most successful overall (and commonsense suggests it is Fergie based on what he’s won v what Wenger’s almost won), the bottom line is both managers have successfully fundamentally developed their clubs into two of the best in the entire world. No mean feat that. As a Gooner I say hats off to Fergie because he single-handedly raised the standard of an entire league, and Wenger followed him and built on that. The original post was a tremendous bit of work and makes the point well but, all due respect, surely misses the point somewhat which is to ignore the intolerable “rise” of Chelsea and Man City. Sure, Fergie went through a phase of buying big with mixed success but he did it on the back of success earned on the pitch. I suspect Wenger would have bought big too, had his new stadium project not reduced access to funds. The hideous presence of both Chelsea and City in the league, funded not by their own pitch-led success but by unsustainable overseas “investors” with little need or regard for a return on their investments, blights us all. My fear is that Man U’s terrible financial situation will sooner rather than later cause them to unwind in the way Leeds did, Liverpool currently are and Arsenal, due to sound long-term planning, probably never will. The idea that only Arsenal will stand in the way of Chelsea and City is almost too depressing to contemplate; I don’t WANT to see United and the others fall by the wayside but regardless of which manager has the best record in developing players, that is what is probably about to happen. And rather than worry obsessively about one manager’s off-the-cuff remarks at a press briefing, the same amount of effort would be better used working out how to regain financial and ownership control of the club you love and many of us admire. Good luck.
I love this stats! Hahaaaaaa
Amos – if you want to go back further, Fergie also brought through players such as Lee Sharpe, Russell Beardsmore, Mark Robins, to name a few, so this is something he has done consistantly.
Surely Ronaldo can be added to that list, he was an 18 year old “one trick pony” no-one had heard of before Alex took him under his wing.
‘Surely Ronaldo can be added to that list, he was an 18 year old “one trick pony” no-one had heard of before Alex took him under his wing’.
I think you’ll find he was on trial at Arsenal before United bought him and Liverpool had a bid on him too.
Well researched article Scott- haven’t the time to dissect it but I as a gooner would accept that Fergie has a top class record of bringing youth through. Its all to do with timing and perspective. Uniteds success in more recent years has been the ability to spend big and suppliment their youth players with established stars. Arsenal have not been able (or maybe unwilling to do this).
Whoever it was that said wenger should be sacked I’ll simply point out that if fergie had started at the same time as wenger (circa 1997) he would have been sacked by 2001 by todays standards given his record at the beginning of his tenure. Fergie would not have been given the time he was given when he began in the modern era. The 5 quality players he brought through (Giigs and Scholes are still regulars and top players) in his fanous youth team will always stand to him but I honestly think that the ‘great’ treble winning side of 1999 would hardly make the top 4 now things have moved on so much.
On an Arsenal blog I pointed out that Ferguson has a strong record of bringing through and building young talent. But you still haven’t acknowledged that your statistics don’t account for Wenger’s record developing talent while in France in Ligue 1. He does have an amazing record over his career as well.
Arsenalandrew raised a more important point. As a gooner, of course, I both respect and dislike ManUnited, but the game is under threat from teams like ManCity and Chelsea who are the real targets of Wenger’s points. These are clubs that have not developed youth and haven’t the resources from their support but rely on the whims of billionaires. And it has been bad for the game. Wenger has never called out United for financial doping. You all should listen to Arsenalandrew’s advice–focus on rescuing your club from the scourge of debt and put it back on the firm footing it enjoyed before the Glazers saddled you with the costs of their takeover. The UEFA fair play rules are coming too, and while they might be full of loopholes, it won’t be as easy to manage such massive debt and stay competitive on the field. Are you sure your current academy players are as good as they will need to be? We aren’t happy we haven’t won, but we do think Wilshere, Gibbs, and Walcott are already excellent players.
i think this blog post just reeks of your self-consciousness actually.
why not admit that both trainers have done a very good job of bringing in top-class performers through eaches youth academies?
thing is though…wenger hasn’t just brought players up from the arsenal academy but from the monaco academy as well, players such as trezeguet, petit, henry and so on. He even brought on anelka in arsenal that you forgot to mention in your post. THAT is why wenger likes to say that he is the best in the world to bring youths forward and give them a chance.
Whereas United bought many of their best players in their squad right now, Rio, Vidic, vdSaar, nani and so on, most of the arsenal players today came to arsenal when they were very young. THAT is why wenger likes to say what he says.
“Surely Ronaldo can be added to that list, he was an 18 year old “one trick pony” no-one had heard of before Alex took him under his wing.”
actualy, wengerhad heard of him before and had already shown him around at Arsenal and was set to buy him when United came in from nowhere and snatched him up, offering more money.
Interesting article. It must have taken you ages. While there are some misleading perceptions about “the professor’s” greatness, one thing is beyond any shadow of doubt and that is his man management of club transfer funds.
Fergie is not in the same league as Wenger in this respect. If you look at both manager’s respective net spending, I’m certain you will find Wenger and Arsenal are in pocket to the tune of well over £100m. In contrast, and depsite the many trophies, Fergie and United are out of pocket to tune of well over £150m.
If you look at my blog (see link below) you will see that I’ve listed all of Fergie’ major signings (it hasn’t been updated for the current year – so the figures are in fact much worse, around £20m worse…).
You might argue that trophies are more important than money in the bank, but look at Wenger’s management of funds, this in part has enabled Arsenal to achieve great things off the pitch: Arsenal have been able to fund the building of a new ground and make healthy profits and their debts are manageable and under control. Would I swap Fergie for Wenger? Probably not, but there’s no doubt he is a great manager and we United fans have to admit that.
http://a-kick-in-the-grass.blogspot.com/search/label/Fergie%27s%20transfers
To begin with, I am a United fan. I love the team and Sir Alex.
Second, I am an academic researcher and do lots of statistics work all the time.
However, the plain average of age is not a very good measure of what you are trying to say. Essentially, the hypothesis stated by Wenger is: ‘I have brought through more young, impactful players than any other manager.” A part of this statement is that we examine impact. The hypothesis you state is: ‘The players that Sir Alex brought through are not only a product of the double winning season.”
To test these hypotheses, a plain average is not appropriate. If we want to test the simultaneous impact of players brought through by respective managers and the players from United not being from the double winning side then we need to use a weighted average. This will tell us the relative age according to impact. The results are as follows for last season (only using the players mentioned above):
Man Utd: 28.1959
Arsenal: 22.7252
The statistical significance is not high due to sample size, but a simple qualitative review indicates differences.
One way of interpreting this is that Wenger has brought through young players more recently than Sir Alex has. And a qualitative review shows that to be true.
Another way to interpret this is that Sir Alex’s youngsters mostly reflect the double winning side. This can be seen through the large number of appearances by those players. The age is brought down by the considerable contribution by Fletcher and a few others.
In summary, Sir Alex has brought through many excellent players, so has Wenger. It is just that Wenger has done it more recently. This can easily be seen on each week’s team sheet — where, for example, Fabregas is Wenger’s engine and Scholes is Sir Alex’s.
While I think Sir Alex is a genius, he has not been willing to rely on youth recently. Indeed, that is why we have to see the adequate (and dependable) play of O’Shea instead of the occasionally breathtaking (but somewhat erratic) play of Rafael.
I would like to see the numbers from Sir Alex decrease, and I think they will have to next season.
Curtis
Minor addendum to my last post:
This number will surely drop this year. We have already seen Smalling and Chicharito play a couple games a piece (Macheda looks to get a few this season too), so this number should drop.
Really, though, I can’t wait to see Rafael on the team sheet on a regular basis.
to bad Arsenal reserves destroyed United reserves in the recent reserve game.
Eirik – Too bad Arsenal’s first team got destroyed by West Brom in the recent Premiership game.
United Reserves are Champions of England.
Best post by far goes to curttalkthai – and I’m not saying that because it’s more sympathetic to Wenger, but because it’s a more objective analysis with more thoroughly researched and impartial stats.
They’re BOTH good developmental managers. Wenger’s done it more recently, Fergie’s done it more in the past. That doesn’t mean that Fergie has unequivocally failed to bring youngsters through recently, just that he’s done it slightly less than Wenger. Why can’t anyone just accept that?
Unfortunately only Scholes was impressive against Liverpool and the game was won by a 30 million pound signing who scored 3.
Wenger though is full of it and has made a bad reputation by trying to steal the best young talent overseas for free, then claim his academy made them players when all they did is polish them up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Some good points, although I think some of the players you consider to have started at Utd are a bit off. Diouff and obertan in particular. I agree diaby certainly did not start his career at arsenal, but that’s about it from the list.
The first wave of real “wenger” youngsters is only actually coming through now. Wilshere, gibbs, frimpong, JET, eastmond, afobe, aneke, lansbury, bartley and quite a few others – these players have been at the club since they were very young, and it seems almost all of them have a real chance of making the 1st team at some point. This has to be largely because of wenger’s influence on the youth policy, which in truth took a long time to get going (as you’d expect really).
It was also wenger who started (in this country) buying or “poaching” talented youngsters from other clubs at a fairly young age (15-17), which is a model that has now been taken up by man utd, chelsea and others – although I think the concept was really started at ajax. THat is why you see players like the twins, macheda etc coming through at Utd.
That;s not to belittle Utd’s youth system at all. Players like o;shea, brown and of course the golden generation (nevilles, scholes, giggs, beckham, butt etc) really are true products of the youth teams who have gone on to win every competition going. It should also be pointed out that the PL is full of former Utd and arsenal youngsters which shows that both clubs are bringing through quality players.
Lele(le) – Did you even bother reading the article?
50% of our CURRENT team are players who Ferguson has brought through. 43% of Arsenal’s CURRENT team are players who Wenger brought through.
That was the whole point. Wenger said we hadn’t done it since 96.
And yes, both managers are good at bringing in youth. The difference is, only one of them claimed to be the best in the world at it lol. Dick.
You are more dick than Wenger for sure.
Why take one season and one whereby the oldies of united are still there?
And only premier league? Why not the rest of the 1st team games?
Why not take more than 1 season?
Fabianski, Mannone etc not there?
Quite some research u hav here.
And in answer to the title – would you dare to suggest that ferguson is NOT arrogant?!?! Or ALL of the Utd players?!?
If you care so much about whether someone is arrogant, why the hell would you support Utd?
I’d like to add one more thing to this debate. Wenger goes on about being the best manager in the world, when it comes to bringing young players through at his club. Well there’s an argument that he’s not even the best in London when it comes to coaching.
Tony Carr has coached and nurtured many players for West Ham that have been sold for over £80m. I refer to the likes of Joe Cole, Rio Ferdinand and Frank Lampard. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/w/west_ham_utd/8650295.stm
Just looked back at Fergie’s early career as manager of East Sterling, St.Mirren &Aberdeen. His previously teams was fullfill of young players, even he made a player to be the captain of team when that player was just 17years old then.
Fantastic!
Wenger? Its just ashole.
Just looked back at Fergie’s early career as manager of East Sterling, St.Mirren &Aberdeen. His previously teams was fullfill of young players, even he made a player to be the captain of team when that player was just 17years old then.
Fantastic!
Wenger? He’s just ashole, no more less..