“Who put the ball in Arsenal’s net? All of fucking Europe,” used to be the chant sung, following Arsenal’s poor record in Europe. When United won it in 1999, Wenger’s team couldn’t get out of the group stages, with Lens and Dynamo Kyiv finishing above them. It was the same story the following season, with Barcelona and Fiorentina finishing ahead of them. The following season they got out of the group, but were knocked out by Valencia in the next round. Then in 2002, it was Leverkusen and Deportivo that stopped them progressing out of the group. The next season it was Ajax and Valencia. The following year, their unbeaten season, they reached the dizzying heights of the quarter-finals, but were knocked out by Chelsea. Out of the group the next season, but beaten in the next round by Bayern Munich. Then along came 2006 and Arsenal made the final.
In the seven years of European football before then, Arsenal failed to progress from the group stages four times, made the first knock-out round twice, as well as one quarter-final.
They lost to Barcelona in their final anyway, and since then, have reached the first knock-out round and the quarter-finals again. I mean, it’s not exactly a glittering history in Europe for poor ol Arsene. So, it’s no surprise that he wants to see United, Liverpool and Chelsea kicked out of the competition.
UEFA are set to investigate finances of European clubs, particularly those working in a deficit, such as the three teams Wenger battles it out with every season in the league.
Of course, UEFA have only become interested in this matter since English teams have started to dominate Europe. They are not at all happy to see our teams making the semis and finals so frequently, so this is a perfect excuse to bring us down a peg or two.
It’s funny that when Real Madrid were ruling the roost, with the Spanish government sorting them out with their indirect funding, winning the European Cup three times between 1998 and 2002, UEFA weren’t concerned with the topic. The same can be said of AC Milan, owned by Italian Prime Minister, Silvio Berlusconi, winning it five times in less than twenty years. However, Michel Platini is very excited to deal with the English “cheats” after turning a blind eye to clubs in Italy and Spain for so long, and it seems his enthusiasm is shared by Wenger.
“I think teams who have deficit should be kicked out of Europe,” Wenger said. “The only way to go is that there is a control over all of Europe, and I think it will go that way whether you like it or not. UEFA will bring in a control of the management of every individual club and every individual club will be controlled. It is very important for the fans of the competition first, and it is very important that every club lives with the resources they have available – clubs should not speculate and then after one year they cannot pay the salaries for the next seasons. Every transfer nowadays in Europe is paid over two or three years, and it is compulsory that UEFA controls that the commitment of the club is right, because if that does not happen, it can all collapse very quickly.”
Now, United are walking on shaky ground, and it is not a situation any United fan has chosen to be in. We didn’t want the Glazers to buy us. We were sitting pretty as one of the wealthiest clubs in the World, we didn’t need someone to buy us to make us successful and rich. We fought against being in this situation, but in the end, there was nothing that could stop it. The debt is a concern for United and optimistically, we have to trust that the Glazers didn’t get to be very rich people by making stupid decisions and buying “businesses” they couldn’t afford to run. We have to imagine the Glazers have planned out how to repay the debt, as that’s all we can do.
However, I resent being lumped in to this category with Chelsea and Liverpool, the former being on the brink of declaring bankruptcy before Roman Abramovich bought them and the latter going 17 years without winning the title before being bought by Hicks and Gillet.
Regardless, football became a business long ago, which Arsenal have benefited from also since their dealings with Arsenal Holdings plc. If football wasn’t a business, we wouldn’t see big club likes Leedscum in the doldrums, being relegated just three years after reaching the Champions League semi-final.
There is the risk and all clubs are fully aware of it. If it happens to your club then I imagine it feels like the end of the World, but what has it go to do with UEFA if clubs are going to take these risks? What does it have to do with Wenger? He might enjoy playing it safe, but playing it safe has won him fuck all.
Now that is not to say I don’t envy Arsenal’s position of security, because I do. I’d much rather things were how they used to be, but there’s nothing we can do about that now. It wasn’t our choice. But here we are, and we are the Champions, Champions of Europe. We had won the European Cup twice more than Arsenal have even before the Glazer takeover, but now we should be kicked out?
Whilst I hate Liverpool to the core, to throw out teams like them and us, with such rich European history would be ridiculous, and it’s safe to say, the competition would be lesser because of it. It would become a joke if Real Madrid and AC Milan were also removed. In the 53 years of the European Cup, these four clubs have been holders 24 times. But this it what Wenger and Platini would like to see happen. Oh dear.
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Will UEFA make the distinction between clubs that have been saddled with debt by greedy entrepenuers who buy things they cannot afford and those that spend irresponsibly each year by throwing more money at transfers than the club finances can support, i wonder? Such as Chelsea, Madrid and Inter. Surely they must, but knowing what a cnut* of a man Platini is, he will ensure the future participation of Europes elite who commit the same crime whilst at the same time coming down hard on English football. How much longer do we have to suffer these fools at UEFA and FIFA? Bring back G14, and do it quick.
i think the main problem here is that despite the masses of debt the glazers put on us, we are infact making a huge operating profit every year, unlike chelsea, who are yet to make an operating profit under abhramovic.
If we were to sell united to a buyer who could afford the club outright, the club should then become entirely self-sufficient, again, unlike chelsea, who couldn’t afford the wages of twats like fat frank and ballack. they would quickly turn into another leeds.
so to penalise clubs for having one idiot buyer is just another example of uefa/fifa hating all that the PL has given the CL in recent years
Well you may be against Wenger,but i bet the rest of Europe including the west hams’ and Evertons’ of this world will be in total agreement.
Just clarify this for me, where does Wenger mention Chelski, Liverpool and yourselves?
Arsenal are not a public limited company and have not benefited from share increases. I am sure it is not United Wenger is targetting, but Chelsea. Admit isnt it galling that in two years, Chelsea could emulate all united’s European triumhs, just because there is nothing to stop wealthy owners buying success. Wenger saw this before with Marseille but not before OM were allowed to win the CL through corrupt means. There should be a level playing field but United fans fear that without megabuying every season, success will not come as easily nowadays.
errrr…………. was it not united fans who were amongst the list of other fans against chelsea buying the league and spending unseen amounts on players when abvramovic was first on the scene?
And as you say u making a operating profit, has the overall debt increased or decresed?
TopGun – Wenger believes all teams who have deficit should be kicked out of Europe. United, Liverpool and Chelsea all fall in to that category. It’s not rocket science.
If it’s so hilarious why aren’t you laughing?
R.E, United in brum…Huge operating profit????? If you think that’s ‘huge’ then you obviously haven’t seen our interest repayments…
As for you Scott…. ‘The debt is a concern for United and optimistically, we have to trust that the Glazers didn’t get to be very rich people by making stupid decisions and buying businesses they couldn’t afford to run. We have to imagine the Glazers have planned on how to repay the debt, as that’s all we can do’,…………….is the ever increasing price’s of season tickets not a big clue as to how they’re making their money back?? Or how about how we’ve become so fucking commercial that we even has AIG on the Munich Memorial poster outside Old Trafford??
Fuck Glazer, and Fuck Gill. I’d rather we kept our pride and history of the club than have sold out.
MUFCUM
Two United’s, One Soul.
Obviously United recognised themselves from Wenger’s comment. United fans can never face the fact that they are sooo much in debt and it hurts them. Of course the Chelsea and Arsenal implosions of recent seasons have saved Fergie and United’s face. Were it not for the frailties of the other two teams, United would have gone four years without the league. And that is papering over the cracks. To be fair it would be a good day if FIFA UEFA took on these oligarchs or billionaires. At Arsenal, to be fair to them they don’t want to be owned by their Russian. Were it not for Fergie’s horse, UNited wouldn’t be in this mess.
I’m an arsenal fan but I do agree that it’s not up for Wenger, Platini or anyone to be judging the financial hell some teams seem to be spending their way into. Risks are taken by the clubs and not Uefa so when/if it backfires it is the club that suffers. Of course it must be worrying being in this amount of debt to a Russian billionaire or American banks etc. but it will only back fire as far as the club is concerned and could be terrible for the fans, simply to have 5 years at the top.
jas, i have seen the interest repayments, and they are a big worry, especially in the current economic climate. All I am trying to say is that if we didn’t have this debt over our heads, we should be the most financially stable club in world football
Scot the Red, United do not operate with a deficit. Yes you are in debt but you cover your costs, just like we do.
He is referring to clubs that spend beyond their means.
Jas Rai – the rising ticket prices is a concern for all Premiership clubs. Portsmouth fans pay as much as £770 for one. West Ham can pay £885. Liverpool can pay £750, and that’s even before they move in to this new stadium. Even Bolton are forced in to paying £490.
Then we can get on to Arsenal, where some fans are paying £94 to watch one match! And the Chelsea season ticket going for as much as £1,150.
What you’re complaining about is the business of football, which is effecting pretty much every club… not the Glazers, who simply conform to the Premiership.
…clubs who sold their soul for £££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££ oh, in our case, $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
I think the fact that you wrote this article shows Aresne has a point. Every Man u fan i know says at least we didn’t buy it. If you was forced to do as we do (like is fair) then you wouldn’t have the squad you do. You this as Arsene didn’t mention any team. You have made it clear you are one of them though. LONG LIVE ARSENE. COME ON THE GUNNERS
Yeah I am moaning about football in general, we didn’t want the Glazers in charge, we protested as much as we could, and now they are in charge, everyone thinks ‘oh fuck it we can’t do anything about it let’s just carry on paying them our money’. Fuck that….unless we’ve all lost our spine eh??
Scott none of those ticket prices are justified mate, I just think too many of our fans lost their bottle with the Glazers…all those banners saying ‘not for sale’ mean nothing unless we back it up
If it weren’t for the Glazers Man Utd would be financially in a totally different league to pretty much everybody else in world football at the moment.
That’s my understanding of it anyway and I think it’s ridiculous that it’s allowed to happen.
All those above who make the difference between having debt ( like Utd AND ARSENAL – £300M stadium debt ) and buying players/paying wages that the club could never afford without huge loans/billionaire owners ( Chelsea ) are spot on. It is the clubs that build there teams in an unsustainable manner that UEFA are targetting. And it is not just English clubs, had this rule been around 10 years ago then you would not have seen Parma, Lazio and Fiorentina go bust.
United are only in debt because Glazer has attached his own personal debt to the club. We turn a profit. This is an entirely different situation to one like Chelsea’s, where they are paying more in transfer fees and wages than what they are actually making. Glazer incurred this debt by buying us, but the club itself lives within it’s means, and pays Glazer’s debt off as well. This is just Wenger pretending to take the moral highground because he does not have the option of spending money he doesn’t have, the old nonse
Arsene’s concept is absolutely correct. However, banning teams from European competition is the wrong ‘solution’. Far better to say that a club can only spend up to a fixed % of their turn-over. Therefore if you are Utd with 75000 paying supporters and their fan base, or Arsenal with theirs, you get to spend far more than – say – Blackburn or Bolton with their more modest means. All of this would mean that football would operate more like any other industry but it would stop the possibility of clubs ending up with impossible amounts of debt to repay. As a gooner I have no great love of United, Liverpool or Chelsea but I don’t want to see any of them go the way of Leeds or Lazio.
Scott, I am no financial expert but I think that you rather jumped the gun on this.
Wenger said, as you quote, “I think teams who have deficit should be kicked out of Europe. The only way to go is that there is a control over all of Europe, and I think it will go that way whether you like it or not. UEFA will bring in a control of the management of every individual club and every individual club will be controlled.
In Germany, every professional club MUST operate without a deficit and clubs DO go to the wall and lose their licence to operate as a club within the German Football Association.
That is not such an outlandish proposal, I feel. It is, maybe, the proper extension of the principle of a “good and proper ownership” – if they actually used that correctly.
Same as here really, but without the German FA formality, witness the case of Leeds, Aldershot and Accrington Stanley, if my memory serves me right. Go bankrupt and you cannot operate anymore without reforming.
Now, as far as I understand it, United do not operate with a deficit. The Glazers bought the club with a leveraged buy-out – perfectly legal, however unpalatable from a United fan’s point of view. A debt does NOT mean that a company/club is insolvent, as long as you can afford to pay off the interest due. If you have a motgage(=debt), it does not mean that you are bankrupt. You have a job and pay of the mortgage monthly. Arsenal are in exactly the same financial situation as United – their stadium debt: our buy-out debt. BOTH clubs have debts and BOTH service the debts within a healthy fiscal framework – ours rather more healthy than theirs.
The only difference is with Chelsea who are bankrolled by Abramovich and currently operate at a loss. Technically, I suppose, Chelsea’s continued operating deficit means that they are effectively bankrupt but commonsense says that he can inject capital as required. If he wanted to get shot of Chelsea, any prospective buyer would have to take on the debt or Abramovich would have to pump cash in to cover the debt before selling. Exactly the same applies, should the Glazers decide to move on.
If Arsene was getting at anyone, it might well have been Chelsea but maybe it could be more relevant to Real Madrid.
Jas Rai – those banners mean nothing because we got sold. That doesn’t mean any of us are happy about it or change our minds on the Glazers. Every United fan, given the choice, would get rid of them in a heart beat.
For every fan who gives up their seat at OT in protest, there are 20 more who will fill it, particularly now that the glory is back. That’s just the way it is. And whether we like it or not, whether every “true United fan” (however you judge that) turned their back on the club, there’d be more than enough plastics filling the seats and buying the shirts.
I agree that none of those ticket prices are justified, I just disagree with you blaming the Glazers for it. You clearly were following United before the Glazers… have you forgotten about all the ticket rises we had before them? Remember Keane kicking off after the club blamed his new contract on the rising prices? That is the BUSINESS of football, not something directly associated with the Yanks.
Jimmy you agree with Wenger so I dont see why you need to slate him at the end. And you should remember what he went through with Marseilles and Monaco, this is probably closer to his heart than anyone.
Don’t fall for this shoddy article, Wenger is not taking a pop at United on this so I dont see why you need to take a pop at him.
Redrose,
Good post apart from the comparison of debt between the 2 clubs. The majority of ours has a fixed rate of 5% for the next 25 years. I believe Man U need to re-negotiate most of their debt which in the current climate won’t be too pretty.
Alot of clubs have debts.
Arsenal has the cost of the Emirates Stadium to deal with and Man Utd have the cost of refinancing debts from the Glaziers buying them. This is not the kind of debts that clubs will get kicked out for because they are financed to be paid off in a structured way buy clubs with operating profits capable of paying them off.
I believe it refers to the clubs with “Sugar-daddy” owners like Chelsea, Inter and Milan who without owners pumping in there own money would not be able to pay the running costs and would go bust. As much as football is a game we all love it is a business and should be run as one. When Harding died Chelsea lost their cash cow and nearly went bust before Abramovic arrived, if he were to leave they would go bust.
Without Abramovic Chelsea are the next leeds/northern rock !!!!
I think many of you are missing Wenger’s point. He is worried about the fallout if one of these heavily indebted clubs went bankrupt. If a club such as Chelsea were to actually go bankrupt through mismanagement of their debt, this would cause problems not just for the club and their supporters, but for any club who was owed money for recent transfers. If Chelsea had spent the previous year buying up players and paying off the other clubs over the next few years, the other clubs would have to write off those Accounts Receivable, which in today’s transfer market could be 20-30 million pounds. If one of these clubs were also on shaky ground financially, and suddenly took a 30 million pound writeoff, this could cause bankruptcy for them. Basically, one club failing could cause a spirally chain reaction similar to the current credit crises.
Even if this didn’t happen, the transfer market would function better if the risk of default was not present.
Danny Fizman made a comment yesturday about the wealth of Arsenal and said that the annual cost of the debt was 20 million a year whilst total annual profit was 50 million.
fergie says the glazers are good owners . i trust fergie . end of story .
Anant,
He’s not exactly going to say they are bad owners is he? Besides they aren’t from the looks of things so far. But without their buyout Utd would be in a much better position financially and everybody knows that.
Interesting comments. I think the issue here is solvency of the club itself rather than operating profit/loss. Liverpool and Manchester United have both been acquired through LBO. As long as the debt to equity ratio is managable, its fine. If its not, the people who will lose the most is not the supporters but the equity holders. Raising more debt when the business model is not sustainable is a dangerous ploy. If Liverpool with all their spending had failed to qualify for Europe, that would have been a straight £20M wiped off their operating income for the year. Spending huge amount of money by making bold assumptions such as “We will always qualify for Champions League”, ” We will always have 100% attendance on our grounds” etc is what is going to hurt. Peter Kenyon had made a bold statement that Chelsea is on its way to profitability . Incredulous and I dont see how its possible – but there you go. It should not be possible for clubs to flaunt and spend money that they dont have in order to destabilise other clubs a la Real Madrid and Chelsea.
I am a United supporter but also happen to agree that clubs should not be permitted to compete either at home or in Europe with debt. If the FA and FIFA had implemented this years ago we would not have had the Glazers at United at all and Abramovich would have to inject capital not loans into Chelsea. However, I believe this debt rule should apply only to revenue spending. i.e. player trading. It is ridiculous that one club can outbid another by using not their income/reserves but money they don’t have, in the hope of winning trophies/paying it back a la Leeds. It is also detrimental to the supporters who ultimately pay for it through higher ticket prices as we have seen. However you cannot change the rules mid-game, so this should be implemented over say a 5-10 year timeframe. For those Reds who claim we have an operating profit, you’re simply wrong. If we had an operating profit our debt would be lower now than in ’05. It is higher. Also there IS something we can do about it, many of us are. Don’t give Glazer your money. He’s a cnut.
Seems like an unnecessary post really. Wenger made a point that your club spends money or should i say borrows money to buy players and that if a club has to take out a loan to buy someone then somethings wrong there. Those Americans who own your club are gonna get bored eventually and sell to whoever and the next guy coming along might be smart and not throw ridiculous money at alright at best players. Hargreaves cost you 18 mil and is injured all the time. Anyway thats my point.
Also I always thought Gary Neville was shite. Thats my opinion.
In short, Arsene was talking about… Valencia! He had better hope that the stadium debt of his own club doesn’t come up for renewal, or his position will look totally different.
While I don’t like the LBOs, I don’t see how UEFA can do anything about them…. I suspect that the lawyers would make a LOT of money arguing this through the courts. Solution? maybe like Liverpool, leave the debt on the owners (who are really not happy with having to put up collateral).
On the subject of debt, if ManU is so flush, why are there suddenly no purchases of players? My nose tells me that the Glazers are suffering from the credit crunch just like Hicks and Gillett, refinancing will be impossible, and Fergie was told in no uncertain terms that he has no money to buy. Of course, he makes noises… otherwise, the rest of the league – and the bankers – would cotton on to it… he just doesn’t buy. Silvestre and Saha are happening to reduce the wage bill. This isn’t meant as an attack on ManU, just a guess at what is happening.
Prognosis not good for anybody outside of the amateur leagues.
Okay 1st things 1st I stumbled across this article from the newsnow site. However it is a fair article and sums up the rubbish Arsene the Whinger sprouts. Were Arsenal not in debt from building the Library part II? It’s a joke that Platini is trying to be a big shot over this, it’s not like he’s doing anything in the lesser leagues in Europe. I live in Derry and we’re in the Eirecom League of Ireland (Republic Of Ireland league), now please don’t ask about the politics of this Derry/Londonderry is in Northern Ireland but we play in the southern league it’ll take a long time if you really want to find out why just search the web. Anyway I was getting away from my point there but in the last 3 seasons the following has happened, Shelbourne won the 2006 league yet got relegated! Dublin City went bust, Cork City have been deducted 10 points this season and there are serious doubts about the fincial well being of Bohemians, Sligo Rovers and rummours about Finn Harps and Galway United. It’s a joke Shelbourne are still credited with winning the Eirecom Premier League in 2006! Their players certainly didn’t get paid for months and they were relegated because they couldn’t meet their FAI licence, Dublin City (who were a small team) just went bust in the middle of the season. To make matters worse it was a poorly guarded secret that both clubs were in the mire at the begining of the season. It’s classic Platini that he looks at the top level before trying to sort out the crap that happens at lower standard league level. Whilst we’re on the subject will Platini give us “the proper fans” more tickets to European finals, like fXXk he will. Finally Scott you state you hate Liverpool to the core, can we please hold up a second, sure I dislike Man U and it’s the biggest rival in my eyes to my team Liverpool I don’t hate you. Surely hate is part of the problem that we’ve come into, we have to win because we hate them lot so we’ll sell out to Ar$ehol% and Wa£*er to be richer. Surely things were much better in the 60′s and 70′s when Liverpool – United was a football match, hate such be saved for George W Bush or Saddam or Hitler. I applaud AFC Wimbledon and most espically FC United and AFC Liverpool for trying to bring the game back to the ordinary man, and hopefully they’ll succeed and we’ll get back to the athmosphere of the 60′s, but if it’s Anfield, Old Trafford or Stamford Bridge you prefer why should “we” the English teams suffer when there are so many cracks all around the place?
I think wenger says that so he can have a crack at the cl hes only doin it cause arsehole suck and man, chelsea, and LFC are better than arsenal so he think if we can wipe them out we can win, but u wouldnt milan, real and milans would knok u out before u can complain
For all the doom and gloom about the Glaziers they really haven’t been that bad as owners. The debt attached to the club looks bad on paper but its been done for business reasons that are common practice as has been detailed in a number of articles over the last year. The club makes enough to service the debt as well as allowing us to spend a good amount on players (53 million on players last season, 20mill the season before that, 20-30mill being available for a striker atm and 30million earmarked for Tevez next summer).
In the meantime by attaching the debt to the club the Glaziers are able invest the money into other avenues that have a higher return than the club would ever make them thus allowing them in the worst case to cover the debt.
They also don’t interfere the same way as the fools over at Liverpool do.
So while it would be better if we had no debt attached to the club its no where near as bad as it seems and on the whole we got one of the better foreign buyers out there
Ummmm, I’m not being funny, but I’m pretty sure Arsenal have spent a fare amount of money in their day. OK they can’t afford the likes of Man U and Chelsea, but compared to everyone else they are still way out ahead. And lets face it, I hate Man U, but they saw the possibilities at the start of the nineties and took it. We can all complain but basically we’re just jealous. Football’s a business, that’s why we get to enjoy the best league in the world!
georgedevon
you know what that as not happened and its arsenal who have gone four years without a trophy. man utd have been succesful becuase they have been the best. just face fact arsenal have been average for the past four years why because they have been in decline fact. arsenal get away with so much and the reality is ferguson is in a different league to wenger who makes sure that his sides are physically and mentally ready for the battles. and chelsea despite spending a kings ransom still could do nothing its uniteds buying and setting up a balanced side that as won them the trophys.
Does anyone really take anything wanker says seriously??? I mean this is the same guy who never sees anything wrong with his team and said that the refs were conspiring against him last season.
Anyway, does he agree with the 6+5 rule too?
Great point OTRed, well made.