The Manchester United website launched a not so subtle warning ahead of our away leg against AC Milan next week. With protests being lined up for both games against the Italians, our club are clearly in a panic over what might happen.
As not to be embarrassed in front of the eyes of the world, the club has informed our fans that they are wasting their time in planning any green and gold flags for the San Siro.
“Flags not in club colours may not be allowed into the San Siro.”
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what the fuck??
well on a positive note we have got their attention, and its worrying them glazer cunts
now its just about taking it to the next level, the world are beginning to see them for the cunts they are.
personally i say we go ahead with the 10-15min thing against milan at home, i know it could affect the side mentally but really what else can we do to stop the glazers, they gonna ban green and gold at home if they already doing it away..
we need a new plan of action
LUHG
oh come on! i am still not convinced but this is bullshit.
sure, it can’t be true
The thing with the colour of the flags is a bit wierd, but overall, I have to say that I don’t see a Glazer hand behind this. Unless Milan and United have come to an agreement about this. Why would a Milan stewart hold in custody a banner that read “We want Glazers out”? What’s in it for them?
Maybe Italian authorities want to keep United fans in check because our last few Italian visits included crowd incidents. So they don’t want any provocative banners to make it into the stadium.
We live in a democracy where we respect freedom of speech.
As long as supporters are not breaking the law then I can’t see what the problem is. You can’t control what supporters say or do when they are in the ground and if they want to protest then they should be able to.
They are hardly causing a disturbance or breaking the law.
The Glazers know their is a problem and the Green and Gold campaign is gaining momentum. The media is writing about it and no doubt supporters all over the world whether they are United fans or not will be asking “Why Green and Gold?” A very clever campaign.
Let’s hope it diesn’t lose momentum as it did when the Glazers first took over. Despite what the “financial experts” say on this blog.
LOVE UNITED – HATE GLAZER
Costas – they must kill all of the children who show some signs of mental problems in order to prevent them for becoming murderers etc.
It’s stupid.
what the fuck is going on really
green and gold are newton heath / manchester united colours
green and gold is a mid 90s manchester united jersey due to this fact
green and gold till they die or fold
heres hoping its the former
@Corea
It is stupid. I just feel that this is probably a measure to avoid any crowd trouble in Italy. It’s not like Berlousconi cares if United fans hate the Glazers or not.
I think United fans can carry anti-Glazer banners in most away stadiums in England anyway.
@Curis
I have thought long and hard about whether to boycott the first 10 minutes of the AC Milan game.
Potentially it could have a negative affect on the team and the posibility of it contributing to United losing the game. On the other hand it will send a message to the Glazers and the world.
In a perfect world we could boycott the first 10 minutes and United would win the tie. Realistically if I had to chose between United being successful and the Glazers owning the club I know which one I would choose.
Scott,
I love reading your blog and the insight that you provide on all things Manchester United. I share your concerns about the growing debt being heaped on the club. By all accounts however, it appears that the Glazers have a sound business model and will now be able to pay off the junior PIK hedge loans as a result of the recent bond. Why spend so much energy hating the Glazers when you can revel in the fact that our supposed “weak, crumbling team” is still outshining Arsenal and Liverpool and we seem poised for another premiership title? Just a thought. I am sure I will get attacked for not hating the Glazers as much as some on this blog. Just my opinion is all.
What is this line really saying?
“Flags not in club colours may not be allowed into the San Siro.”
Nothing.
‘May not be allowed’ is a nothing statement. ‘Are not allowed’ means something, ‘may not be allowed’ does not.
It’s an attempt to discourage fans that clearly lacks any actual power.
time for the green and gold boxers to come out.. drop your trousers for the reds LUHG
In a way I am quite happy. It shows that our protests are working and are getting the Glazers paying attention and getting them worried, to the point where they are getting the club (people they employ) to write such statements on the website. If the Glazers expect the protests to disappear any time soon, they can think again.We will continue and I imagine there are a hell of a lot of others who are thinking the same
LUHG
Just a dumb question. What happens if United fans boycott the first 10 minutes? Does the game begin at 7:45 anyway? Or will they wait for the stadium to fill?
Because if that’s the case, then an alternative for the protest would be for 50-100 United fans could make a sit-down strike at the halfway like from 7:45 to 7:55. That would prevent the game from starting for 10 minutes without any negative affect on the team, apart from Uefa fining the club.
Rephrasing due to multiple typos:
Because if that’s the case, then an alternative for the protest would be 50-100 United fans doing a sit-down strike at the halfway line from 7:45 to 7:55.
erm, Dont Milan fans have problems of their own against their owners?. Apparently they want Berlusconi out. Saw a boot being hurled at him the other day on TV. Broke his tooth.Looks like the Milan fans hate him.
Dont think boycotting the first 10 mins would be good. the fans can do it in some other game but not this one. It is a big game and we need the fans to get behind the team. If we batter them at the San Siro adn get a comfortable result we can go ahead with boycotting the first 10 mins,depends on the result in the 1st leg i guess
RE: Costas
they would have to kick off anyway I would imagine
I am going to record it on march 10th so when I get back, I can see what it looks like (empty stadium) and what the commentators say etc
RE: AAIG
they do and they have held loads of several protests against them but berlusconi and galliani are usually quite honest with milan fans. they admitted they sold kaka for financial reasons. if that was us, the glazers,Gill etc would have made up some rubbish excuse and gone on about what a brilliant financial situation we were in
If 10 000 United fans turn up wearing green and gold scarves will it be a problem ?
I don’t think it’s so important to show some banners at San Siro even though it is a highly rated CL game. It will be the problem if we weren’t be able to do it on our own stadium.
However i can find million ways to cover the protest by iventing different abbreviations but i believe they will find million of stupid rules because this is the world we live in.
Well said @United Fan
Anybody that has read any of my earlier posts knows that I’m on the other side of this argument.
I don’t know if you were at the Portsmouth match or whether it came over on TV but quite a chorus of boos eventually started up against the Glazier Hate chants, particularly when that ugly green and gold banner was unfurled. I think MUFC know that the majority of match going fans back the manager and the club.
Unfortunately, while everyone is entitled to an opinion, no matter how uninformed it is, this issue is going to divide our support just at the time we need to be most UNITED.
LU -IFIT
*inventing
http://twitter.com/henrywinter/status/8820147042
@spencer
Thanks. Luckily, Greek TV has the option of the ITV commentary, so I will try to hear what they say. Won’t be too flattering one would assume.
@AIG
You do have a point. That’s what happened against Inter last season and in the second leg the difference maker was the early goal. Truth be told, United players benefit a lot from the special OT European atmoshere. That’s why I wondered if a sit down strike would be a better option. I remember a Ch.League semi in the Berbabeu in 98 starting with a 45 minute delay because Real fans started pulling the strings behind one of the goaks and eventually brought the goalposts down.
Dave Mack – it won’t divide out support for the team i think.
Tough question, still not sure what to make of it.
i think that what appeared on the club’s website refers to a law that they’ve got in Italy for whom all the banners need to be approved by the authorities responsible for the safety of the fans inside the stadiums. This law was introduced about two years ago i think,after another wave of violence between fans had hit Italy.This isn’t been made up specifically for the Milan-United game,fans of any Italian team who wish to bring banners or flags need an approval from the hosting club.Hope that this post has cleared a few doubts. I for one will bring my green and gold scarf at the San Siro, Love United Hate Glazer.
gotta hate tiny tears is spot on.
This is why the Green and Gold protest is an inspired idea. They are part of Manchester United’s heritage and therefore part of our colours.
If the club start cracking down on that further it would be a big mistake.
Get the Glazers out!
hasn’t been *
@United Fan
My personal reasons are as follows:
1. I would prefer profits going on reinvesting in to Manchester United rather than servicing debts.
2. I do not like the fact that season ticket prices have risen every year since the Glazers have taken over to service the debt.
3. I do not like the fact a new shirt is out every year to service the debt.
4. I do not like the fact Manchester United is referred to as a franchise. We have over 100 years of history and heritage. It is not a franchise.
5. I object to being owned by Americans. The heart, soul, roots, heritage, and history of this club lie in Manchester. For all the globalisation of the Manchester United “brand” it is still a Manchester club. It should remain in the hands of the people of Manchester, England, UK.
Not used as a cash cow to make money.
Those are just a few reasons.
http://www.manutd.com/default.sps?pagegid={48C41513-A376-4D1F-981D-660FC5BB193E}&redirectorid=news_story&newsid=6646191
They have stooped to a new low, One word RATTLED!
@Spencer
agree. Hard to imagine the Glazers or Gll admitting that we sold Ronaldo due to financial reasons or we are not buying due to that.We come to know all this only when our clubs reveals our profits/debt.The debt thing and the way it is being managed has made our club a laughing stock.
@Costas
Ya. Just feel a European night wont be the appropriate game to do it. as we know the fans can make a hell lot of difference in such games. Possibly the home game with a Stoke or Fulham would be a more appropriate game. I understand that if we do it in the Milan game it will make the headlines due to the occasion but given a choice i am sure we would want to see United go through.
Dave Mack, I’m glad you mentioned that and it has been picked up elsewhere. I am seeing Norwich scarves being given away, or sold for a couple of quid in a desperate bid to subsidise/publicise a ’cause’ that is fast running out of steam and frankly boring a lot of people now.
And as for those banners. Shameful and classless. To be displayed on Feb 6 was doubly disgraceful.
Definately a chasm in class growing between our supporters on this one.
@Dave Mack
Fair is fair. There were boos from United fans when other United fans started chanting against the Glazers. Still doesn’t mean that those going to OT are mostly pro Glazer. I won’t say that they back the manager, because everyone of those 70000 United fans backs the manager.
@United fan
Sound Business model? you are having a laugh lad,
Every United fan at Old Trafford backs the manager and the players.
@United fan
I have to agree Chris20LEGEND. Nothing sound about a model that burdened the club with debts it could have done without. They are doing their best to service them, but the truth is we never needed the Glazers in the first place.
The fact that there may be a divide in the fans does not mean some fans are not backing the manager and the player, the issue is whether it is affecting the team and its performances or whether we arent backing our team enough which i dont think it is. There is no harm in a peaceful protest.
Hold on, not on a european nite? Would you stop… generally United flags on sticks are taking off us, we are told to sit down and keep our mouths shut trying to create atmosphere, but when its a european nite when were a goal down from the first leg the match day review has raise the roof, nothing but PR nonsense, The same lads who chanted when we where 3-0 down at fulham start it all every home game, what are they singing, “love Untied Hate Glazer” enough said
I beleive with the new cameras they have at OT that if the stadium has filled to less than 75% of the tickets sold they would delay ko.
It has happened with traffic issues and such in the past, however we all know what UEFA are like. They would most likely kick off regardless.
The champions league starts are sync’d as noticebale from multiscreen on Sky. If we could start even 1 minute later than the rest, or if they had to wait due to us that would be a big statement to Europe.
Althought like with everything im not sure how far it will actually get us.
I am going to Milan and will be taking my Green and Gold scarf!
I bet deep down Ferguson is with us and knows that the protest is against the scum-bags that own our club.
LUHG
@Corea… sorry mate but it’s naive to think that this won’t divide our support for the team. Can you imagine what effect it would have on the team as various parts of the ground tried to “boo over” anti Glazier chants?
@ Paul H agree. It turned my stomach see the banner on the day the “FLOWERS of MANCHESTER” were being remembered.
LU – IFIT
Scott – I read your blog everyday – and take what you say as “the complete story”
the statement from the website you posted – in my opinion – has been condensed to what you wanted it to mean. I’ve just read the whole statement, and my understanding of it is – AC MILAN HAVE A POLICY ON BANNERS, WE ARE JUST GIVING YOU THE HEADS UP TO AVOID ANY TROUBLE -
If the club wanted to make a hint to stop fans taking the green n gold scarves/banners etc to games they would start at OT – saying they might restrict fans in non-club colors from OT.
Thats my opinion anyway.
Regarding the protest @ Milan game @ OT. Well I have made my views known before – I really think that on such an important night it could effect our players. We should be singing about our love for the club not our hate for the owners. Glazers have been doing ok so far, we have read as fans a bit in the media and over-reacted (I AM NOT IN FAVOR OF GLAZERS OWNING MANCHESTER UNITED).
As said above I am as against Glazers ownership as the other United fan(s), however I do not see them leaving us due to these protest. Times are difficult financially – prices for everything are rising. Do we go to Tesco and protest about the rise in price of bread? or milk?
Yes the rise in prices may have been due to our debts, but we are surviving, and doing blooming well on the pitch. As well as a football club Manchester United is a business – whether we like it or not. We don’t complain about our global appeal – we brag about it ! and thats due to us being a successful business. The two work hand-in-hand. To be successful team we need to be a good business, and to be a good business we need a successful team.
Once again – I DO NOT SUPPORT THE GLAZERS. Just a view on the matter, as it hurts me to see so many protest/songs/chants/banners wasted on this as opposed to energies being diverted to singing/chanting/banners about our club and players.
WE’LL NEVER DIE
Just an idea. Once in the ground we should put all our scarves together and create a huge banner out of them.
@Xyth … so it doesn’t matter what Fergie says about how “terrific” the owners have been ….. or that he comes out directly opposed to these protests …..deep down you know that he supports the gren & gold???
Just like MUST … you invent you own reality to suit your agenda!! LOL
LU -IFIT
@Dave Mack – i’ve thought about this that’s why i said it’s a tricky question and i am still not sure what to make of the whole situation.
But people have every right for the peaceful protest. However we have to be sure whether this protests are held in order to help the club and not to help raise ones ego.
@Dave Mack
United weren’t exactly fighting for their lives at 3-0 were they? Has there been a time when the team desperately needed the fans’ help and they chanted against the Glazers instead?
Time has come to hurt them where it counts. We have only one serious way of limiting the $ in their pocket and that is with our season tickets.
If we do this we need whoever can be lined up to take over to guarantee that holders of season tickets 2009/10 who don’t renew in 2010/11 will get them back when the Glazer’s are gone. I’d make the sacrifice. Also I’d hope that any new ownership includes rank and file supporters not just “red knights”. I’ve 20k in the MUST savings trust and hopefully we can get a lot more supporters to put up some cash in however small.
truedevilred … too right.
I love Scott’s insights on football matters and the passion with which he craves success on the field but when it comes to non football matters he’s out of his depth and just trot’s out an old, long dead, MUST agenda.
Like the tabloids …When you don’t know the facts ….just twist the truth.
LU – IFIT
Like people have said, it’s AC Milan’s policy to check banners (that they are not too big or contain offensive material) and I doubt they will have a problem with our ani-Glazer banners. The next line in the article ‘Flags not in club colours may not be allowed’ is probably just bullshit. Bring your green and gold people! Certainly the scarves anyway, what they guna do, make you put it in the bin?!
Fellas, im not a financial expert by a long shot but im not a mug either, so can one of you who knows whats going on answer this quick question. I was skeptical of United “being bought” as soon as i heard the name of the bank that was fianancing the deal, but now its happened, HOW BAD is the situation? Before the deal, United was owned by shareholders right? So Glazer came along, took a loan out using United as collateral, paid the loan to the shareholders to “buy” the club, and now he’s slowly making repayments using United’s income, meanwhile United are in debt for the capital plus interest that HE borrowed to “buy” us in the first place?
Is that basically what this cunts done? Cheers Fellas.
@Dave Mack
Please educate us mere mortals with the facts.
That’s the kind of utter fantasy and conjecture driven propaganda that helps IMUSing and MUST-get-a-proper-job dupe these poor, gullible people.
“I’m sure Fergie agrees with us……”
“David Gill won’t admit that we sold a player who was desperate to leave for 3 years for a world record sum, just because we needed the cash”
“Rio kept that dirty Norwich scarf that I forced onto him for nearly 10 whole seconds, so he must hate the Glazers”
“The players gave me the thumbs up when they drove past me into the training ground so they must agree…..”
“Fergie is living in fear of the sack so he has to say they are great owners”
Just when you think you’ve seen it all, they keep getting better. Next it will be “I could tell by the way Nani backflipped that he wants Glazers out” or “Owen missed that sitter, in protest at the Glazers”
not that i’m a big fan, but article 10 of the european convention of human rights, states,
“Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. this right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.”
take a copy of this with you and they can’t do a thing. take them to the european courts. see how the glazers like that!
green & gold. LUHG
Green and gold are our clubs colours, aswel as red.
The truth behind hargreaves’ injury: he refuses to play until the club is reclaimed (sic) by the fans. Fergie say’s it’s psychological, but we all know the real reason lads, don’t we?!
No Paul H. Hagreaves’ psychological problem stems from the fact that these disgraceful classless fans dared to chant against the club’s beloved owners. How could they?
There is no way they’d stop green and fuckin gold in to a united European night, for a club that is built on and is so proud of it’s history,real history aswell as trophy history, to say no to newton Heath is nuts, can we not mention billy meridith in old trafford now. Althou I read the whole thing in manutd . Com and it’s more milans rule and not to ruffle feathers with past itailian experience. Green and gold isn’t 2 random nonred colours it’s what the club was built on and unless it says on there website no green and gold then I think this is a lot of fuss about nothing and this is from a guy who was personally censored a few hours ago
Agree with many others who said this arrive-10-minutes-late-plan should be done against a team other than AC Milan, even though the Champions League game will have a larger audience. Personally I want the team to get beaten as a result of a lack of support from the crowds; as much as every United fan I hate the slimy yanks and want them out as soon as possible but there are things we cannot afford to do. The home game against the italians will be crucial because I have a feeling the San Siro tie will be goal less, so they will be needing as much support as possible to soar their confidence and belief. The players are determined to qualify further in this competition as they want to make amends for losing in rome last year I presume.
I don’t think anyone should worry about this blunt message from our club, many Utd fans will still wear their green and gold in Milan. What will the stewards at San Siro do, confiscate them? I am sure some will find a way to sneak in banners anyway. Many will be wearing green and gold scarfs outside the stadium anyway and the press will be filming the fans a few hours before kick off so it doesn’t make a difference really.
I don’t want*
Paul H … Talk about mis information ….twisting facts to suit their own world view ….I copy the following from an earlier post on this thread.
“Dont Milan fans have problems of their own against their owners?. Apparently they want Berlusconi out. Saw a boot being hurled at him the other day on TV. Broke his tooth.Looks like the Milan fans hate him”
It was Milan fans protesting against capitialist ownership of their football club … nothing to do with Berlusconi being Itailian Premier!!!!
I’d have to laugh it it wasn’t so sad.
LU – IFIT
Wtf? How can our fans say we should not protest against the glazers.the on field sucess in last 3 years has gone too much into some peoples heads.the reality of how much the glazers have ruined the club is coming out now.all this bond thing is just a drama to calm things down.how can saf be happy seeing others spend money,not being able to compete for top players with his hands tied behind his back?
Dave Mack – out of you or Scott I know who looks like they’re out of their depth. Which facts about this leveraged buyout that has saddled our previously profitable club do you not like.
LUHG -
I have to say I didn’t hear any boos for the green and gold on Saturday.
Not getting involved with this particular debate as there appears to be quite a divide happening. I have my thoughts on it all but am keeping them close to my chest. Save to say some people really don’t know fuck all but seem very happy to follow the red tops.
As for Fergie I stand by what I have said all along. Not a cat in hells chance he would be dictated to by the Yanks.
@theboy – Human Rights ? Italy ? Tell that to Carlo Giuliani, Mate.
Anybody have any input on my brief question ? Have the Glazers “bought” the club by using it as (for want of accurate terminology) “collateral” for the loan?
In other words did Glazer walk up to the bank, ask for a loan to buy the club and place liability for the repayable capital and interest with the club? Cheers.
Having little or no debt is better than being in £700 million, £550 million, or £300 million of debt. Simple as. I don’t need any knowledge of the financial sector to know that!
We’re still profitable. Just we have £700 million of debt now.
But the financial guru’s would like you to believe that is is fine.
Perhaps it is. Perhaps it isn’t.
All I know is I prefer money being spent on Manchester United.
Not on servicing debts.
Do half the fuckers at OT even know why they are sporting the Green and Gold? Numbers of them coming out the megastore on Saturday laden with bags!
Paul Parker
The facts that ABU’s … the sensationalist tabloid media …. MUST etc. are UNITED in trying to keep from are :
The GLAZERS used debt in a totally legitimate way to acquire the club.
The sums “taken out of the club” are considerably less now than they were when MUFC was a PLC.
The GLAZERS are long term investors in global sports enterprises.
They have a track record of running the business well and leaving “on field” matters totally to management.
SAF and GILL both openly support them and Fergie has referred to them as “terrific owners” who’s given him “everything he’s asked for”.
SAF and GILL are against the protests and have asked supporters to get UNITED behind the team.
But Scott the green & gold (formerly red) and those with an outdated socialist agenda don’t care. (They have that right.)
LU – IFC
Dave Mack – Are the MUST lot owt to do with Red Issue or UWS? Some of the offensive shite in there about Fergie of late has been dreadful. Real agenda’s it would seem.. I really like both these fanzines but sometimes I have to disagree with the content.
By the way Scott you get a mention in the latest RI. Regarding your attendance figures for United and Siddy.
I love the Green and Gold and I will wear it to every game untill they have gone! The protests are brilliant and for the club to issuing statements as they have they are clearly rattled.
I must admit though I dont like the protest at such an important game for the team!
We did it perfect against City at home last week, sing your hearts our for the boys and show the colours of Newton Heath.
The rerturn leg should be a see of green and gold, Pompey on Sat was class when we had a spell of constant twirling.
Dave Mack :
“The GLAZERS used debt in a totally legitimate way to acquire the club.
The sums “taken out of the club” are considerably less now than they were when MUFC was a PLC.”
Where are your facts to substantiate this! You can’t. There were dividends paid out but at a much lower level than the interest payments on the debt today.
King Eric,
Assume you don’t include The Manchester Guardian in this comment:
“Save to say some people really don’t know fuck all but seem very happy to follow the red tops.”
Those doubting the wisdom of the Second Leg protest are too short-sighted, IMHO. Yes, we face adversely affecting the result, but the bigger benefit will be to show everyone watching that we are deadly serious about our intentions.
Losing a tie in a competition that re-occurs every season is nothing in comparison to the backdrop that the financial ruin we risk (leaving the Glazers in charge) provides.
@Dave Mack: I don’t think it was the fans’ intention to disrespect the Babes or *any* aspect of the Munich rememberance, for that matter. I’m sad that you should see it that way.
@United Fan: Could you please explain what you mean by ‘sound business model’ (or at least direct me to one of your posts or an article that does)?
Dave Mack
Hi mate i know you are not with the Green and Gold and I am cool with that but you mention above:
“I don’t know if you were at the Portsmouth match or whether it came over on TV but quite a chorus of boos eventually started up against the Glazier Hate chants, particularly when that ugly green and gold banner was unfurled”
The only reason we all started to boo was because the stewards come to take the flag! The boos were not against the protests in anyway shape or form. It was against the stewards.
The one thing you keep mistaking though and assuming is that the protests are against SAF.
Why cant some fans seperate the two? Your slogan of LU-IFIT, I am glad you do as many others are the same myself included but this is not about SAF.
Anyone at the game on Sat will know this campaign is only going to get bigger and better.
This is a match going fan home and away and I love SAF but am fully informed on my own decisions not to endure these parasites in our mighty club any longer!
Tom – Pardon?
giggs 11 gerrard 0 – I like your posts mate. One thing though I really do think that some of the fans are doubting Fergie and in time may well turn against him. As previously mentioned have you seen some of the comments in Red Issue. Calling him a liar and all kinds.
@giggs11 – I have said wearing green and gold is a legitamate way to protest no matter how wrong and misguided I think your view is.
But mate …. do you honestly think it was class to unfurl a green and gold banner on the day the FLOWERS of MANCHESTER banner should have taken exclusive pride of place?
While I suspect you think it is “class” and it’s your right to protest, I can assure you that the majority of United fans left OT on Saturday sick to the stomach at they way an admittedly sizeable minority of our fan base is being manipulated.
LU -IFIT
EastStandManc – Alright pal. Ain’t seen you on here for a while. Are you ok? You have hit the nail on the head. So many fans say they are well up for this campaign but then disagree with the second leg protests as the “short term ” success is all that matters. Hypocritical in my view.
@giggs 11 gerrard 0
excellently put
King Eric you referred to people listening to the “red tops” assume you mean tabloids?
various posts have asked for the financial arguments about the glazers’ leveraged takeover of the club and the consequences that follow.
you can find them here:
http://andersred.blogspot.com/
Dave Mack
My views are not misguided mate, please dont twist my take on the protest and link it to the Muncich memorial, not only is in bad taste on your behalf but not in anyway have i ever stated i though the flag over the banner was class.
I stated the green and gold scarf triwling was class which it was and it represents something far deeper for me than just a tourist waving it for the day.
I then progressed to state in my second post that the fans were not booing the flag they were booing the stewards.
So you can take the high ground all you want mate but please read what i put before trying to make such comments.
King Eric
How are you mate? agree with what you say pal, I read this months Red issue on Saturday and must admit it i was a very one sided publication in parts for me.
Did you see the section in the middle regarding the Myths about the Glazers though, that was interesting in parts indeed.
King Eric – I’m fine mate, how about you? Just been swamped with work and teacher training, so not been able to post that often, that’s all.
I had to laugh at your comment about the Megastore daytrippers wearing G&G scarves ’cause I remember thinking to myself that if the Glazers were audacious enough to start selling the old Sharp Newton Heath top in the Megastore, some daft bleeders would no doubt buy ‘em! It really is sad to see, but I’m not surprised.
@ Dave Mack: You said “I can assure you that the majority of United fans left OT on Saturday sick to the stomach”. You asked 70-odd thousand people, did you? I can’t see how else you’d be able to say that.
@King Eric and East stand Manc
Lads I am proper with what you are saying but I dont think the second leg stand out is the answer?
I was talking with loads of lads on Saturday about this and we are torn on it? I think if we were inside the ground doing a demo with just a see of green and gold would be better than a stand out.
I just think we had it perfect against City, big game for the team but in full view the green and gold was representing.
@Dave Mack
Im not doubting its legitimacy, im sure they crossed the T’s.
So your saying the dividends previously paid to Shareholders was higher then the amounts paid out now to service debt repayments? Or are you saying that once the debt is paid “theoretically” the cost of Glazer running the club will be less then having Shareholders? Cheers for the response, but I guess what I really wanted to know from anybody is, if a new prospective owner came to “buy” Manchester United how would they purchase the club any differently? Its valued approx at 1Billion, but even if Glazer sold for that, would anybody seriously invest that type of CAPITAL into the club themselves? Surely anybody else would secure Capital from a Bank even if they have a spare 1Billion laying around? On the other hand, are M.U.S.T saying they want to create a consortium to raise Capital without a loan to buy the club and free it from debt?
Im all for the Green and Gold campaign by the way, not too sure about starting the Milian game without United Supporters tho. That would directly affect the team and not Glazer. He’s hardly gonna sell up if we fail to win the Champions League this year, but fucking around with our team morale by removing support WILL affect how we play on the night AWAY from home and potentially damage our progress this year in the CL.
sorry to go off topic but i think this has all been said before the green and gold needs to keep on going the way its growing because its taking over but it cant just stop in its tracks and pick and one sentence in a statement so ive gone off topic
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=738740&sec=england&campaign=rss&source=soccernet&cc=5739
Beckham: I won’t celebrate scoring against United
`
cause he wont
OFF TOPIC:
Anyone here has the full list of our registered squad for the knockout stage?
Cheers PerkytheRed, I’ll def give it a read.
I have been keeping up with the ins and outs since these parasites came along, and they are parasites, because eitherway you look at it their sole purpose of acquiring our club isn’t flippin philanthropic is it ?
ITS TO MAKE MONEY AT THE CLUBS EXPENSE.
personally I always thought the “explotation” of Brand United was inevitable. But what I wanna know is, if a Manchester Born BILLIONAIRE came along with his cheque book, would he acquire our Club any differently ?
We’ll have 75+ minutes to create that sea of G&G though. I don’t doubt we’ll be up for it (in terms of creating a deafening atmosphere), either, so I wouldn’t worry about that.
Listen, it’s really quite simple. We can fret about a tie that will cost us a chance at the European Cup for a year or we can fret about “doing a Leeds”. I fret about the latter and would suggest that we be prepared to do the most to avoid that.
Now, is ‘the most’ a game against Milan when the eyes of Europe will be upon us, or a game against Stoke/Fulham/*insert Prem team here* when we might get a few minutes’ discussion between Lawrenson and Hansen on MOTD (if we’re lucky) and some Sunday press?
I’ll let you decide
.
Paul Parker – prior to Glazer we were without any significant debt. That meant that after dividends all profits were ploughed back into the club. Just take a look at what Gill was saying about the Glazer business model prior to being bought off with this £1mil plus contract.
A PLC model wasnt’ ideal and perhaps wouldn’t be ideal in the future. Short of a small number of individuals and and sovereign funds few could stump up £1 billion overnight. But a consortium of private partners could. Also Ideally some of that could be raised through supporters, least we forget 20%+ of the old PLC shares were in the hands of supporters.
what this club means to me
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZGftuAKy18
@giggs11gerrard0
Thanks to you and King Eric for giving a bit if an update about the boos this Saturday. I wanted to ask someone who was at the game what was the deal. Watching the game via streaming, I thought the boos where against the Glazers chants. Good to know that there wasn’t a divisive atmosphere on Saturday.
That being said, I think the protest in the MIlan game is not the answer. The Glazers will still pocket the ticket money and United fans will be cast as the bad guys in this.
United fans maybe cast as the bad guys if we turn up late, but sure half the plastics and the trippers walk out with 5 mins to go week in week out… im hoping we dont turn up late but be in the ground in time for kick off for sing our hearts out for the lads as they walk out as we normally do and as the teams line up on for the press photos we should all walk away from our seats and into the concourse for 10 mins…
Simple turning up late will just give the wrong message as the rest of the world may just think weve been caught in traffic,
@Giggs 11 etc.
I’m going to sign off with this! Anyone who comes up with Giggs11 Gerrard0 as a name will always have my respect! I enjoy and agree with the vast majority of your posts and despite the fact that you now wear green and gold …I know your a true red.
But as you can see this issue is dividing our club and being used by our enemies with that very clear objective in mind.
I, like Fergie, believe the GLAZERS are very good (but widely mis understood) owners of this club. The fact that they are Yanks should not come into consideration, bar the fact that they may be able to increase our profile and sponsorship in that huge market.
They have no intention or the slightest motivation to “break this club”. On the contary they have every motivation to see it remain the greatest football club in the world. The costs and limitations of being a PLC were infinately more damaging to the club than the Glazers leaverage buy out.
But no ownership structure can come close to creating the sort of damage to our beloved MUFC than fans fighting fans and protests distracting and dividing the players.
In the end of the day, I know Ferguson wouldn’t waste one second in coming out publicly against the owners if he felt they were’nt living up to their promises or could be harmful to the long term viabilty of the club.
So why do you protestors think you know more or are wiser than Fergie? And don’t answer ….”it’s not about Fergie” because he’s as committeed to this club as anybody and more comiitted by far than the vast majority of those posting on this site…..yet despite his call to stand down … they go on. Ask yourself why?
LU – IFIT
Cheers Tom.
Thats pretty much what I thought. So a viable alternative to one owner with huge debt IS a consortium of Private Investers and Fans raising the 1Billion + to buy out the Glazers. I guess any other individual coming in to “buy” the club would only be re-financing the existing loan Glazer took to pay off everybody. Sure they may invest more to reduce the overall debt, but the debt would remain. So roughly speaking, the only way to be debt free is through a consortium wiling and able to raise the funds necessary to buy Glazer out completely. But im just thinking out loud, I’ll read up on it… when this all started just knowing we were being royally fucked by the Glazers and the NM bank was enough for me I guess. Again, not sure if its speculation or fact, but I’ve been told that the debt repayments being made by the Glazers doesn’t even include the CAPITAL, so they’re apparently just paying off Interest each year without budging the debt. Could be wrong, guess I gotta look further into it to find out whats really going on. Thanks for the replies Fellas, appreciated.
Costas … I was at the game and despite what giggs11 believes my boos and many around me were not about the stewards ….although I suspect like everything else about this protest the booers themselves are divided.
I’m told Lou Macari said on MUTV or wherever he was broadcasting that the protestors were “by no means the majority” and that most fans were getting fed up with the chants and with those “that hate the owners more than they love UNITED”.
If that’s so … he was speaking for me.
LU – IFIT
@ Dave Mack
I was at the match on saturday and the atmosphere was magic… LUHG … the players know we love them and dont care that we hate the Glaziers… it seem that the constant wall of sounds pushed them on even when the game was won at 3-0
I was informed that all staff including players are not to be seen wearing the green and gold.
Finally..I was booing at the stewards and so was everyone else around me in the East Stand. The stewards are making more attention that if they left the flags up..fucking idiots.
By the way respect your opinion..just think its missing the bigger picture…winning is everything…united long term future is
What the hell is this Nazi Germany?!?!
Something has to be done about these glazer twats
No body was booing the chants, they were booing the stewards making fans put away the banners…
@ Dave Mack
You need some serious re – educating lad, fine you keep supporting the glazers and licking gill and fergies ass on everything they say, your just like the rest of confused bunch, blinded by our success over the past few years, there wont even be a club to follow in the near future if they stay.. Wake up!
@Dave Mack
2 different opinions about the boos then. I don’t know. I heard something. It could have been a bot of both as you say.
Lou Macari said that on MUTV. Hmm. Reminds me of what another United legend said on MUTV. Can’t take them seriously, sorry. Not when they work for the Glazers. I value what they say about the football aspect, but they are not independent voices in my opinion.
Unless someone went out there and held a 70000 people poll, then they can’t say whether the protesters are the majority or the minority. Besides, where is the evidence that they hate Glazers more than they love United? Because they chant against the Glazers when the team is winning comfortably? That’s why the initials go like this :LUHG. Because the love for UNited comes first. And lets separate the two from now on. Anti Glazer protesters are not dippers and bitters in disguise. Nor are they moles sent by a Chinese, Arab or American billionaire who wants to take over the club. They are UNited fans who disagree with the state of the club. Football fans argue with the regime of their clubs all over the world.
Also, a few years ago we had Villa fans protesting against Doug Ellis. It’s always a challenge to balance the love for a club and the belief that its owner is bad news.
Dave Mack
I totally respect your stance on how you see it mate and you are right just this argument alone shows that fans are divided!
I believe what I believe though and continue to protest! That said I am not after propaganda! Each fan should make their own informed decision on how they view it!
@Dave Mack
I am absolutely certain Fergie would have rather spent £50m every year on new players rather than servicing Glazer debt. He chose to go with the flow and now has to support them in public. He did also say that he understands fans concern regarding the clubs debt, didn’t he?
@Costas .. agree it’s not possible to say with certainty what the majority view is …like everything else that’s also a matter of opinion!!! But I can say with certainty …. We are DIVIDED.
Chris 20 Legend …don’t speak to me about being blinded by our success. Did you watch United home and away in the second division?? I doubt it very much. Well I did. Did you sing big Jim Holton’s after you? Do you know who Jim Holton is?
Confused?? I don’t think so. I’ve seen this movement before. Against the Edwards, against Maringer & McManus against , BSkyB, against going public, etc etc. Yes and against Fergie in the “get Fergie out campaigns”.
It’s you the needs to wake up mate. (Did like you calling me “lad” though!)
LU – IFIT
Anyone notice that the club has now amended the original statement on the website and added in “According to guidelines published on the AC Milan website, flags not in club colours may not be allowed into the San Siro”
The fact that the Glazers are banning Green & Gold at games shows they are the wrong people to be in charge! Engaging > Censoring
They aren’t interested in engaging with the supporters because the truth is they care only about profits. If they had any other intentions then surely they would seek to reassure supporters of this.
It’s time to reclaim our club.
Notice how Paul H. Glazer never posts about the team, the players, the games, etc. He only ever shows up to defend the Glazers. How suspicious.
Let’s hope Paul H suffers a massive stroke, just like his hero Malcolm Glazer did. That way they won’t be able to pollute this blog with his pro-Glazer shite any more.
@Dave Mack
Not trying to be a smart ass, but trust me I have seen truly divided fans in my lifetime. It was with a Greek club and its decision to bring back their most succesful manager who left them to join their bitter rivals. Every home game resembled a war zone. Those in favor of the manager would hate the guts of those who were in his favor and vice versa.
I think United fans’ unity is in pretty good shape. It’s a fine line and so far in my opinion, we haven’t fell on the wrong side.
Just a thing about Macari, that’s irrelevant to our topic. Just a personal grudge I have with him over the years. Funny he would talk about fans being divided when he was the one who trashed Veron every week on MUTV. I guess that didn’t divide fans.
Xyth
Fergie has made it clear that he’s not in the market ’cause there’s no value in it. (Benzema 35m plus 150k LOL – Kaka 65m plus 180k LOL)
Gill made clear Fergie can spend up 50m and in fact said 100m will be available in the summer.
In other words there is no evidence that the way the financing side of the club is structured is having any impact on the footballing side. Exactly what you want in a well run club.
But we only have SAF’s word on that … and guess that depends on whether you trust him or not.
LU – IFIT
Dave mack
I was at the game Saturday and everybody around me(north stand) was booing the stewards not the people chanting!
@Dave Mack
Thanks for your posts. You’re doing an admirable job defending your position. Wish there were more participants on this blog like you.
I am reminded of the saying “a little knowledge is a dangerous thing” in this situation. People with little or no financial knowledge feel confident enough to predict doomsday for our club based on what they have read or heard others say. Then there are those who conveniently choose to believe the manager and ex players on some issues and not on others on the pretext that they will be biased on the latter. And we also have the closet socialists and Yank haters who have now found an issue to relive the joys of the good old days when socialism was alive and kicking.
Believe it or not, Manchester United is run as a corporation. Yes we have huge debts to service which is an obvious concern. But plans like the one for the Milan game betray the often repeated conviction that United comes first. I choose to believe Sir Alex and David Gill. Those are the opinions that matter. If Sir Alex says he has the funds and chooses not to spend it, I believe him. If Sir Alex praises the current management for their style of functioning and support in transfer related issues, I believe him. The Utopian idea of the fans owning the club would be fine if it was workable. But even the best example of that, Barcelona, shows the drawbacks of that idea… messy annual elections… politics and more politics, which would inevitably lead to managerial casualties in the post Sir Alex era.
@Chris20legend: It’s a good idea but I don’t think it’s practically viable because the concourses simply can’t cater for that amount of fans all at once. They’re pretty full just before kick-off and that’s when many have already taken their seats!
@Dave Mack: You said “So why do you protestors think you know more or are wiser than Fergie? And don’t answer ….”it’s not about Fergie” because he’s as committeed to this club as anybody and more comiitted by far than the vast majority of those posting on this site…..yet despite his call to stand down … they go on. Ask yourself why?”
Firstly, nobody here is saying they are wiser than SAF. Secondly, nor are they saying SAF’s judgement is perfect, either. His realm is the footballing domain, not the financial arena. The more pertinent question might be to ask, in that case, whether *you* think SAF knows more than those in the City who are well versed in the many and varied financial instruments the Glazers have utilised in their takeover (as well as the re-financing) and are opposed to them?
Lastly, SAF has said he won’t manage beyond 70. If that’s the case, very soon it *won’t* be about Fergie whether you like it or not. At that point it will remain to be seen whether the success we’ve maintained under his tenure can be continued or whether those currently backing the Glazers will have reason to look quite so optimistically toward the future …
@arijc
Sir Alex also said that he wouldn’t sell Real a virus. Sorry, but even Sir Alex can bend the truth from time to time. And speaking of ex player, Cantona is against the Glazers. Not everyone is in their favor.
i pray a sea of green and gold washes over the san siro when we play Millan. Its all well and good the team has got it right in the pitch, now its time for the team in the background to do their part. i really hope we can pull it off, we need to keep the spotlight on problem
I can only see this green and gold protest increasing and gathering pace.
One thing for sure is that it doesnt benifit the team in any way and we risk us lossing Premier League points or an early exit in the champions league!
If im honest i hate hearing the Hate Glazer chant at old trafford, im not to fond of them or their debt but by christ id rather hear a Rooney Chant, A Nani Chant…United Chant.
Maybe its something that has to be done but as yet i fail to see strong enough reasons to join it!
@arijc – a little knowledge! The financial voices are queuing up to question the viability of this current debt situation. Further the market itself in its pricing of the bond’s (heavily discounted already) is telling us that this is a very high risk situation. The previous business model while not perfect operated for 20 years with little debt. David Gill himself was strongly opposed to the Glazer proposal prior to the takeover.
@Trevor – all I’d say is that this is our Club for life and perhaps there is a risk of short term pain but we need to change things before it is too late. Also don’t forget there was plently of people who claimed in 1998-99 that the protests against BSkyB would distract the teams performance – that season seemed to go ok didn’t it?
I’ve got my green and gold scarf. I’m however not entirely convinced that it’s the right thing to do. We all obviously want them out and preferably a ownership model ala Real Madrid or Barca.
The thing is that this green and gold campaign is gaining momentum due to fans having to associate themselves with the masses – with the Red (Green) Army. It’s basically mass suggestion, which is highly evident when I see people wearing the 2009-10 kit AND the green and gold scarf.
If this campaign is to succeed we need to be prepared to go all out on it – for years. We need to mobilize and educate fans from all over the world, including Asians and Scandinavians, and get them on board. We need to make a significant decrease in the 30,000 who visit the Megastore every matchday. Boycott merchandise.
Doing so the profits will decrease, which is the only thing which may force the Glazers to sell (as they’ve aligned themselves to drain money out of the club). When profits have decreased significantly, they’ve also probably has cleaned out their PIK debt using our money. What next? Drain what’s left of it.
I’m not sure I want to go down that road.
Concerning the boycott of the 10 first minutes of the game. Disrupting the team? Give it a thought. 50,000 below the terraces giving it all hell on Glazer chants. They’d might hears the roars below the terraces. Then the masses starts to fill OT, probably done in a few minutes. All chanting LUHG, all singing our hearts out for the lads.
A roaring crowd who loves the club, who even supposedly sacrifice short term success for the greater good. When 50,000 people enter the ground in a noisy mood, it will even rocket the atomsphere sky high. It’s creates a situation where the atmosphere spurs on more fans.
The lads know what’s going on. They know why we might be protesting. They know why we’re not there. They’ll know we’ll enter the stadium.
It could even inspire them.
@alpha_rs
No doubt Scott will delete this like he has the last few of my posts but here goes
1) Over and over again you raise this and no matter how often its pointed out that the money WOULDN’T be available for reinvestment under the PLC or any other realistic owner structure as it would be being PAID OUT TO THE SHAREHOLDERS. Ofc you would prefer to believe that 100% of the pofit goes on servicing the debt (something I disporved on another thread before Scott deleted it) but the simple fact is the club turns a profit higher than any other premiership club, the profit figure is AFTER the the cost to service the debt is taken into account so it cant be taking up 100% of the profits if we are making a profit
2) Season tickets would have risen anyway. The Shareholders would have wanted them to to increase their dividends (And we aren’t talking about the insiginficant ownership by fans, but the people like the Glazers who had real holdings. Also the club would have needed it as our ticket prices were vastly cheaper than our rivals (including Liverpool who dont have the London Tax excuse, and we are still cheaper on average) and we had clubs like Chelsea who were throwing money at players and to compete in that market we needed a greater turnover and profit.
3) We don’t generally have a new shirt every year. Shirts usually have a two year lifespan. This season is a little different due to the Sponsor change. Also if you had done your research you would actually know that United like most sports teams don’t really make any money off Replica short sales as most modern contracts for these see the Manufatuer (In our case Nike) pay for the rights and then take pretty much all the profits. If 100 replica kits were sold or 100million United profits from it would pretty much be the same
4) How often have you seriously heard the club refered to as a Francise outside of Americain Press who refer to any sports team as a Francise as thats how they understand sports teams in their country
5) You do realise the reports on the Red Knights actually indicates that most of them are “London Money Men”. So hows does that fit in with it being owned by the ‘People of Manchester’. Oh and a couple of things here “London Money Men” are the greedy bunch who are very much part of the reason for the economic issues in the country. And seriously when has the club been owned by the ‘People of Manchester’. You have to go back to 1980 when Louis Edwards owned the club for that to be the case, by connection I suppose you could say Martin was ‘From Manchester’ but he was really more Cheshire than Manchester. And anyway he tried everything he could to sell the club, First to Robert Maxwell in 1984, the Knighton in 1989, then floated the club thus ‘sold’ much of his stake in the club and continued to reduce his stake until the point where when the Glazers took over he had long since sold all his stake.
@aig alex is god
Ronaldo was sold for ‘Financial Reasons’ but not for ‘debt reasons’. Its the same reason many clubs will sell a player and thats the Bosman rule (and the rule whose name I forget that allows players to buy themselves out of a contract). You have a player that a clubs willing to pay £80mill for and the player wants to go then Finances do become part of the ‘Footballing Decision’. Did we want him to play for another couple of seasons and then have him buy his contract out for a few mill or leave on a free. He wanted to go, he may have distrupted harmony and the money on offer was massive so ofc they took the money.
As for the clubs books making us a laughing stock. Every club in the Premier League and pretty much every club in the world would bite their hands off to have our accounts being their own. Chelsea for example can’t even turn a profit when supposedly ‘debt free’ where as the clubs books show a premierleague high even when £30mill has been spent on Berba and no significant sales were made in that accounting period
@Costas & Chris20LEGEND
The business model is pretty sound when you get beyond a leymans understanding of Business Financial and also get away from the scare stories and missinformation by the Media, MUST and some fans.
As for Costas comments of “but the truth is we never needed the Glazers in the first place”. I’m not sure thats 100% true, the PLC was killing the club the minute Chelsea got their Sugar Daddy. Having to run every action by the Shareholders made us slow and predicitable with the transfers and the PLC found it hard to maximise business opertunities which made finances from a POV of transfers tight and tied our hands against Chelsea.
And whats being forgotten is McManus and Magnier were looking to sell up and Dobson only bought his stake from Edwards as he saw a buyout coming that would make him mass profits. So the club was about to be sold and the Clubs valuation was such that it was always going to be on some kind of Borrowed money that the ‘club’ would have to pay back in someway. Atleast the Glazers were people looking for long term investment and weren’t looking for a plaything. We could have easierly landed with someone looking to ‘flip’ the club a season or so down the line for profit (Like we are seeing at Pompey atm) or someone looking to interfere on every level despite being clueless
@Alastair
If we don’t buy our season tickets and spend money on the club who exactly is hurt? Its not the Glazers per say, its the club first and formost and it will be the club you will destroy before the Glazers are impacted. If as a fan you do any kind of protest that damages the club and the team then you are a hypocrite and are no better than the Glazers so you have to take that into account with any protest you do
@McQueen
When applying to display banners in Italy you do stand a greater chance of a rejection if its not in the clubs official colours as its just easier for them to police that way. (After all just as the Green and Golds being used to ‘provoke’ the Glazers colours could be used as a ‘not so obvious’ provokion of fans that gets by the checks)
@Paul Parker
Its unlikely anyone could buy the club without adding ‘debt’ somewhere in the chain. Billionaires generally don’t have billions in cash, their worth is tied up in investments. There are different ways of handling the debt that could be used to appease fans but ultimatly the outgoings would be no lower than they are now as even a Fan will want and need a return on this kind of investment. The main issue with the way the Glazers have done is its done in the ‘open’ rather than being ‘buried’ so then fans who have been brought up on the ‘Debt is bad’ idea (Which is generally true on the small scale that most of us have to deal with) have something to latch onto to complain about.
@Tom
The profits made after the DEBT SERVICING has been done are also ploughed back into the club though. Which is what people keep ignoring. Based on a percentage of turnover or profits the dividends would actually be higher than interest payments
@Paul Parker
“I’ve been told that the debt repayments being made by the Glazers doesn’t even include the CAPITAL, so they’re apparently just paying off Interest each year without budging the debt”
Its not always a good idea to pay off debts that you don’t need to though. Sometimes its smarter to make the minimum payments. Student loans in the UK are a perfect example of this, alot of people when they get a ‘windfall’ will pay these off or pay a bit of it off rather than use the money in a smarter way. The student loans are written off after something like 25 years and with the repayment rates it means that infact most people would never have to fully pay off the loan anyway but many do without needing to.
With the United debt its possible the money can be used to make more money than it shaves off the interest payments and down the line the debt might be able to be refinanced in favour of the club.
Mind you someone (One of the very anti Glazer people as well) did post on another posts comments that Gill said that the debts actually £350mill so perhaps some of it has been paid off.
@Xyth
The money WOULDN’T have been available for the club in transfers though. It would have instead been paid out to shareholders
@ perkythered
I read that link you put up.
http://andersred.blogspot.com/
those numbers made for some depressing reading….. jesus.
@WAKEY
If your still on, I’ve got one brief question in response to your first point.
1) If the large amounts of money paid by the Glazers to fianance debt would’ve been PAID OUT TO THE SHAREHOLDERS anyway, what benefit comes from having a owner who pays the same money out to service debt? what benefit do the Glazers provide that the PLC shareholders couldn’t?
Basically, what is the long term benefit of having all this debt? Because there surely isn’t any benefit whatsoever in the short term, is there ?
Cheers for the response to my other posts, let me read that first.
Trying to be unbiased with this situation, it really has left a bad taste from the start tbh. And thats being polite about. Its disgusting on so many levels.
I see the points your making Wakey.
thats what I was getting at with my post, surely anybody who came in for United wouldn’t use their own capital, they would borrow it and create debt at the Club they could finance. So thats the first thing, I guess.
Anybody buying the club would put the club in debt with the long term aim of managing the debt – which bring up the other point you made, your saying rather then rush to pay off the debt, Glazer “might be” using profit to generate profit else where. Its a very big maybe, but if the funds freed up by making Interest only payments ARE being used to generate additional profits, this would only benefit UNITED if those new profits are put back in the club. For instance its no good having an Interest Only Mortgage if your not using your “extra cash” to generate more money to clear the PRINCIPLE… Unless of course the Glazers are treating UNITED like a person who takes out an Interest Only mortgage because he intends to merely “rent” the property and has no interest in actually repaying the PRINCIPLE. Perhaps this is the problem, nobody knows what the Glazers intentions are. Is it short term or long term ? If the debt really is 300 odd Million like GIll said, then why are they not singing it from the roof tops to dispell the popular belief its actually 700+ million and rising? why the ambiguity ?
This really is alot to take on and consider for the average fan, and the fact its all cloak and dagger just adds to the feeling that UNITED is being robbed blind. Sure, I can imagine if an owner came in and put United in debt with the sole purpose of paying off the debt in record time – that would be realistic and probably more practical then having multiple stakeholders (I can’t see UK Gov subsidising Manchester United in the same way Spanish Clubs are taken care of by their Gov/Banks) But on the other hand, what if the Glazers have bought UNITED merely to fleece the club for everything they can? Like the man with an Interest Only mortgage and no intention of paying the Princple, the Glazers could easily fuck off the Bonds they’ve just sold and leave with the money they’ve already taken out. That would leave us in the hands of the Glazers creditors, whoever the fuck that is.
Its too late to go on and on, but I’ve got a better understanding of whats going on, and my worse fears are still there, I guess I understand the other side of the arguement a bit more. BUT THE PROTESTS SHOULD CONTINUE IMO. But not in a way that affects the performance of the Team. Spread the Green and Gold Campaign far and wide. A sea of Gold and Green is the best bet. But INFORM fans of whats going on, give them INFORMATION so the main thrust of the movement is to demand ACCOUNTABILTY from the Glazers. Because even if “Red Knights From London” (LOL) come along and save the day, they won’t be using money from under their mattress, and they won’t be coughing up hundreds of millions for giggles, they’ll be using LOANS to buy the club and they will expect RETURNS asap.
SO IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, all fans should demand a clear indication of the direction the club is going by protesting with the Green and Gold campaign. Knowing exactly how much the club is in debt and how its being repaid is a START. Gill has REAL questions to answer. And on that note. GN.
Paul Parker – This relates to your question to Wakey (and may have been partially answered by another post I submitted but haven’t seen pop up yet), but one benefit to a single, leveraged owner vs. a diffusely held, plc structure is that the single, leveraged owner feels increases and decreases in the value of the club in an amplified way (in an oversimplied example, if the club purchase was financed with 20% equity and 80% debt, then a 20% uptick or downtick in the value of the club leads to a 100% increase (or decrease) in value single, leveraged owner’s investment. This should lead to more focused decision-making than having a diffuse group who are not at risk/benefit of the ampliefied effect.
Whatever the financial reality – and the reality is that we are struggling to service debt and the bond issue was better than expected though because of the debt and fact glazers take millions out of the club the bonds are techincally “junk” bonds in sctor speak and are already losing value in the secondary market – i.e. United is a high risk investment – nonethess less, as I was saying, whatever the financial reality, looking at Portsmouth and other clus, it is not too early to send warning shot to the owners saying you mess with our club and we will humiliate and hurt you (in the pocket).
Remember irresponsible followers make irressponsible leaders – we need to be alert and press our case against owner irresponsibility while supporting united, there is no contradiction there, I don’t see what the fuss is about, maybe a more moderate chance – Glazers don’t you dare dont you dare mess our club – in between supportive songs would be best. But they need to know we are watching them and we are concerned – afterall we are the customers, we are the fans, we are the reason the club is the biggest in the world and all of us world over need to make it clear DO NOT MESS WITH UNITED WE ARE WATCHING YOU AND WE WILL ORGANISE.
i trully admire all of your passion for ManUtd lads, but please do remember, boycotting our club is not a way out, you guys ( including me ) can hate that fuckin yankees as much as you all like,but please remember what SAF told us, we must stick together and stay behind our team..could you imagine what will happened to our players when they see the OT empty??
Glory glory ManUtd
scott,
what about green and gold stripe shirt? in rugby tshirt style. I got one but i’m in malaysia
Wakey, so much offensive material to deal with but I’ll take what was directly addressed to me below.
If I as a 4th Generation United supporter who has held a season ticket or LTMB for 40 years is considering not renewing in the hope that the short term pain to the Glazer’s will force them to sell who exactly are you to call me a hypocrite? I’ll do nothing that my father, grandfather and great-grand father would not support and more pertinently perhaps I’ll do it for my children. My concern is with the long term survival of my club what is yours?
———-
@Alastair
If we don’t buy our season tickets and spend money on the club who exactly is hurt? Its not the Glazers per say, its the club first and formost and it will be the club you will destroy before the Glazers are impacted. If as a fan you do any kind of protest that damages the club and the team then you are a hypocrite and are no better than the Glazers so you have to take that into account with any protest you do
@Wakey
Thanks for your explanation. I have no knowledge of financial things so i dont understand in detail about our current financial situation and the steps we are taking or their pros and cons but 716 million and counting is a lot of debt and certainly is worrying.My main worry is the number isnt being kept in check but is constantly increasing rather than going the other way.
@ Big Bad Wesley brown
I think you might have a point there. Any time a debate or discussion on the financial matters starts up, we have Wakey and Paul H and Dave Mack in here trying to defend the indefensible. A bit suspicious…just makes you wonder….
@ arijc
“little knowledge is a dangerous thing”……mate, thats a bit rich coming from you when you dont even bother to do your research before commenting. Remember our discussion in an earlier topic.
@ Wakey, Paul H and Dave Mack
I said it before, and I will say it again….leveraged buyouts are not always bad nor are they anything new…you can take it from me as I have been involved in a leveraged buyout worth 13 BILLION , a small fraction of what United went for….
But how you manage the debt-equity levels, the cash-flows and the post-takeover policies is what its all about. Different kinds of business can sustain different levels of debt.
Football is a very risky business and requires continuous re-investment at the top level. Even Barcelona for all their youth policies do spend a lot of money every year refreshing their squad. So at the top level you NEED cash to sustain success.
The debt levels at this moment are worrisome (NOT UN-MANAGEABLE by any stretch of the imagination i stress to add, but definitely worrisome) For all the financial experts in here, if you tell me that you look at the figures and numbers and you do not get worried, then I have serious doubts about your professional expertise.
The debt levels are almost approaching Junk status, with the Debt/EBITDA multiples approaching >5.5x . I am not quoting any ‘ sensationalist media-reports’ I am talking about cold-hard facts from the accounts released by the club itself. I will not attempt to relay all the financial facts again here, as I have already had similar discussions a number of times with several people here (yergen I remeber was one….) and I would not like to bore everyone here with financial jargonry and mumbo-jumbo…
Have you imagined what happens if we somehow fail to qualify for the champions league say in the next 3-4 years or even fail sustain the levels of success over the last few years. the 80 million from Ronaldo will not happen every year. rather the net-spend over the next few years should be positive if we are to replace players of the calibre of Giggs and Scholes, Van der sar (and if you have any idea of football, these kinds of players dont come cheap!!)
if from the 80-90 cash-flows (EBITDA for simplicity sake as there is little concept of receivables or Inventory in football by the way) you take away the interest and taxes, you little or nothing left to pay down the principal on the loan, let alone purchasing high-quality players.
You talk about trusting Sir Alex…..learn to trust your brain and intelligence that God has given you first…….you should at least be honest to your profession and be man enough to say that things are not indeed fairy-land as you would like us believe.
I will make the point again as I made in one of the earlier topics….let us have a constructive debate about how we can take the club forward. Personally I do not agree with entering the stadium late or any kind of destructive protest which hinders or distracts the players because as Sir Alex says “the team should come first” no matter what. Wearing Green and Gold is a fantastic way to show the protest while at the same time supporting the team, Quiet and confident and not constructive. But destroying the goal-posts or taking the pitch or turning up late is not the way to go
I think all this division plays into the ABU agenda. I hear a lot about hating the Glazers but very little constructive suggestion about what replaces them. Personally I prefer people with a proven business track record to some billionaire that views a football team as just another toy. If fans won’t or can’t buy the club, the billionaire toy is the only alternative. Yes the global downturn will affect the Glazers/United but I am pretty sure the Glazers will work to save their financial status (and United’s success). So till us fans are ready to put up, I say we shut up, support our great team and wipe the smile off the ABU faces because I assure you, they are loving this!!!
By the way..this is just a great site. UNITED….what a team!!!!
@ Paul Parker
Your posts have a very mature tone about them and you make a few valid points.
I agree that if the funds are indeed being channeled away somewhere to raise even more profits, etc then it would be okay as long as they are re-invested into the club at some later stage.
BUT PLEASE tell me where such kinds of returns can be generated without taking ridiculous amounts of risk and i will put all my personal investments into those assets. The PIK debt carries 14.25% I REPEAT 14.25% !!
Can you tell me any investment avenue anywhere in the world that can earn greater than that without taking ridiculous amounts of risk. Your Return is always proportionate to the risk you take…..so dont tell me to invest in Equity markets cause you never now when your investments might be wiped out due to any of the crises waiting to happen in the world. The European economies are in the doldrums, The EURO is weakening, Greece is almost bankrupt, other sovereign defaults are waiting to happen…where do you see such kind of returns happening? At least for all my qualifications and experience, I certainly dont! Nor do all the financial institutions in the world as nobody would be buying our bonds offering just 8-9% interest when they could be earning greater than 14.25% elsewhere at similar risk…
Think for yourself and introspect…..thats all I am asking you to do and you will have most of the answers to your questions..
@RedDevil
Wow, impressive analysis man? You’re in the finance field?
@ RedDuck
yeah….Work in corporate finance for a steel major
@Wakey
Sorry, the plan still doesn’t look sound to me. No matter what understanding one has about finances, it’s a no brainer that almost no debt is better than 300, 500, 700 million or whatever it is we owe.
Personally, there were times when I was frustrated with the PLC regime, but at least United fans felt safe about the long term status of the club. I don’t know if this has been discussed, but do they have a plan for paying off the bonds by 2017? Without selling assets like our top players or OT I mean? I hope it doesn’t depend on Man UNited being succesful on the pitch, because that is not a guarantee.
Sugar daddys are temporary. And in times of a recession, the well could dry up. Like it has with Abramovich over the last couole of years. Like it could happen with the Arabs at City. Besides, if we take a long look at our transfer over the last 5 years, how many of them were done because the Glazer system is more flexible than the PLC? 1? 2?
@Costas
Good Morning mate.
Couldnt agree more.Great post.It is obvious that SAF dosent have the money to spend.I feel all this no value in the market thing is just an excuse. Since when has SAF Changed his mind.He never minded going for expensive players in the past so why this now. Also that rule of not wanting to sign players above 26 years of age?.That usually is the time players peak.
The Glazers havent interfered in what SAF did they have ruined the financial status of the club.people disagree with me but apart from our fans not many people will want to buy the club with this debt.
And it is a fact that the Magnie and McManus were looking to sell their stick. No denying that. That was the flaw of the PLC. Thde club could have been taken over by anyone. Whether the Glazers were the best solution or not, is up for debate.
we’ve got a Re incarnation of ADOLF HITLER…..WE WANT GLAZERS OUT WE WANT GLAZERS OUT
I dont think it had anything to do with the club. Why could Ac Milan help united? Our club give them a sum of money to ask them to help? No way. It just coincidence. I think Ac Milan had a rule for all these to prevent loud of blocking flags. But i do think it’s weird “Flags not in club colours may not be allowed into the San Siro.”
THE ENEMIES
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5W5r_hwSKw
mark hughes got the sack after losing 2 of his 21 games and the first one of those was to fergies watch or paying the ref or something i cant remember
bobby has lost 3 of his 10 games
Norbert Bugeja Said,February 9th, 2010 @9:03 we’ve got a Re incarnation of ADOLF HITLER
/
pick up a history book
that is one of the stupisest things ive read on this site
people want to call sir alex god
k
people want to call glazers devils
k
there all cool in my book because they are ,in my opinion, not real but a state of belief
but calling a stupid businness man Hitler
my fucking jasus
@ghtt
calm down mate. all of us are angry with them.Justa bit over thr top what he said but the Glazers are exploiting the club for the own benefits and making merry themselves while the club is being burdened.
whatever anyone says, fact is that our club is in a big problem{debt}, we all know who are the causes of this shit and since we ,fans,love the club more than anyone, its our job to rescue it through any legal action.Therefore our feelings towards the Glazers should be clearly made known,we should protest without stop, we should do everything within our power to save the club that we adore.
LUHG!
aig
dont tell me to calm down cause i dont think a name like hitler should just be thrown around. maybe you should pick up a history book aswell
@ghtt
i said what he said was over the top. he did use the wrong reference which i said.Anyways the Glazers are exploiting the cub which cant be denied.Maybe you think differently but here in India Hitlers name is used when people act mean or are selfish or wicked.
aig i said dont tell me to calm down then agree with me for what i said, ” Re incarnation of ADOLF HITLER” so dont just jump on my comment to someone else tell me to calm down ,i know what the glazers are like, i know what must have done and what i have done to support must. you think they get these scarfs for free .i and my businness are doing what i can and i and my daughter are having fun with chants.
but fuck the glazersyou go tell someone whos life has been affected by hitler it just means nasty
@ghtt
i know there are quite a number of Jews in ireland so that must have put you off as well but everyone isnt aware of it and this lad meant just to compare how bad the Glazers have been for United. You took it very seriously.
aig its nothing to do with an irish thing its to do with talking TO SOMEONE ELSE about a stupid thing that was said. It has nothing to do with you. Your Opinion 80-90% of the time comes across pointloess to me because it had nothing to do with you in the first place. and thats me finished explaining myself to you. Why i keep doing it ill never know
@ghtt
just felt he didnt mean anything bad and hence said it. Just thought you were a bit harsh with that one. anyways thats your opinion and you have every right to say what you feel. Sorry if you thought it was pointless.
There are clubs who are on the edge of being called bankrupt but they don’t have the tradition, facilities, fanbase etc like we do. I am not a specialist in finance issues but i know one thing. Fans have the right to protest even if they aren’t 100% educated in the economic field. We can’t all be finance experts and that’s why we have to find people in whom we believe. It is better to let our feelings known now when we still have players, sponsorship, Sir Alex, success than when it will be too late.
We just have to find the best way to show what we think of it and Glazers, Gill should find the way to calm down the spirits and explain to us why we should believe them. I hope it’s not too late because you can’t be sure.
@Wakey
If Scott is not posting your comments then perhaps it has something to do with the content? If you can’t convey your points to me with out being condescending then please do not post comments to me anymore.
1) The point you make here has been answered in a previous post and your theory has been discounted.
2) You can’t make statements like “season ticket prices would have risen anyway” because you don’t know that.
3) You can’t make that statement either because you don’t know. I have done my research. There has been an increase in the amount of shirts only having a one year span. All this seasons kits are one year only due to Aon.
The 2008-09 third blue strip to commemorate the european cup final win against benfica. (Launch date Sep 16th 2008. Expires July 2009). The 2008-09 away strip white. (Launched 2008. Expired July 2009). The 2007-08 away strip black. (Launched September 13th 2007. Expired September 2008). The 2006-07 home red retro strip. (Launch date July 24th 2006. Expires July 2007). The 2006-07 away white strip. (Launch date Sep 2006. Expires July 2007).
That is 8 one year life span shirts since the Glazers took over in 2005. That is 5 years ago. I think you need to do your research here.
4) The club was referred to as a franchise in the material when the Glazers went around the world trying to raise money for the bond issue.
5) I never once said I supported Red Knights or that an ownership by them would be better than the Glazers.When I said it should remain they weren’t the best words to use. United should be owned by would be a better replacement.
Yet again you are putting words in my mouth.
So would they seriously stop someone from entering OT wearing a 1992-94 third kit purchased from the club shop??
As for EBITDA accounting
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/analyst/020602.asp
This is actually an Italian Law, passed by the authorities in Italy after trouble in stadiums a couple of years back. It has nothing to do with any rule that United have put in place.
This law on flags/banners applies to every single fan at every single game in Italy. Any United fan who went to Inter last season will know that they do a ful search on flags when trying to take them into the stadium asking you what they say and getting authorities to verify before allowing entry.
http://www.stretfordendflags.com received this message early last week from both United, AC milan and the Italian authorities and it was placed on the SEF forum, whilst we sought further clarification as how to get your authorisation certificate.
They will also take things such as bottle tops off you and sometimes even coins before allowing you into the stadium.
Brilliant. To go with the other wildly inaccurate (and often profanity strewn) nonsense, we now have hugely inappropriate comparisons with genocidal regimes from the campaign!
Credibility growing lads. Keep up the good work. I’m almost on the verge of buying a Norwich scarf now
paul h
that made me laugh out loud
Paul H
Going by your posts yesterday you seem to be a bit of a Glazer fan and against all this. Fergie must be so happy with not much money to spend.
“That’s the kind of utter fantasy and conjecture driven propaganda that helps IMUSing and MUST-get-a-proper-job dupe these poor, gullible people”.
What does this mean?.United fans want Glazers out,simple as that.If you dont agree come up with something better or shut up.
WTF??!! I Hate Glazer!
Morning all…
Jesus whats happened on here overnight? Haha think I may just stay out of this one, good job I am meetings all day!
@Dave Mack, Paul H, United Fan
What a sorry clusterfuck of Quisling* gobshites you three are.
I read your comments with amusement on some posts last week. At the time I thought there was something fishy about the line you were taking – purporting to be reasonable, mock-condescending about other’s inability to understand the financial nuances, affecting a sense of outrage against the ‘thuggery’ of those opposed to the Glazers.
After reading the same line of Glazer-sycophantic drivel from you above, I couldn’t resist having a word just in case anyone was taken in by your weasel words.
The arguments you use about the debt being a normal instrument of business and the bond issue being an improvement on arrangements are straw men, rhetorical gimmes of the worst kind.
The core issue – that pursued by MUST, Red Issue, this blog, all sensible fans – is the belief (far-fetched and quixotic you probably think) that the ideal arrangement for our football club and clubs per se, is for the fans to have a substantial part of the ownership and a say in the running of the club.
Its a sine qua non of that idea that excessive debt – and don’t try bullshitting us that it’s anything other at the moment – would not form part of our business model. Nor, given the vast turnover of the club, should it ever.
All your arguments are simply rhetorical diversions from that point. The discussion from now on should only centre around how we move from this invidious status quo, to the ideal.
It’s quite obvious to me that your trolling here – on the most popular United blog – is a calculated attempt to influence opinion. It ain’t gonna work – you might take in a few dupes, but common sense is in ample supply amongst true fans and we can smell bullshit a mile off.
Funniest of all is your quasi-Stalinist revisionism – I was at the Pompey match and unless i’m deaf or deluded the vast majority of fans were singing with the usual gusto against the Glazers.
As for the lowest gibe one of you made – about how the Flowers of Manchester would feel. The minute’s silence was observed perfectly and I imagine they, God rest their souls, would have happily concurred with the sentiment voiced in the remainder of the match. If you think otherwise then you need to get a grip.
LUHG – WATPOAE
*look it up
I suggest we should all ignore the “hitler” reference by Mr norbert bugeja….the poor guy probably doesn’t even know what he’s talking about…I think he’s just a kid from somewhere who just thought it would be nice to try to outdo the others on here with the hateful tirade…..
I think some people wishing death or worse to the Glazers should just calm down. Passions do run high when it comes to the club but try to have some sense of perspective! They have played around with our beloved club and even personally I dont like the way they have gone about the business, but some of the things that are said are just downright stupid. He is a businessman, all of us are businessmen at some point trying to earn a living….he has a family, kids, etc just like any other human being. Its not as if he’s murdered someone or paid to kill anyone for god’s sake!
Scott
Can you please write else related to tomorrows match soon. This seems to have turned United fans against one another with fans slagging each other. Better to keep quiet next time when this topic comes up rather than talking with people who only turn up when this issue comes up.
@AIG
exactly the point….it seems that quite a few of the posters actually have no interest in the football side of things and interestingly only show up once the topic turns to financial matters and slagging off the glazers…and even then the tone used in the posts is mostly condescending, full of superiority complex and shows a lack of respect.
you dont get respect if you dont show any….
What s dodgy Red Devil about Dave mack and Wakey on here? They have been coming on for time. Silly conspiracy theories now.
But Green and Gold are club colours… if you value the history of United. That’s the point! LUHG!
They cannot ban green and gold… plain and simple.
These were the colours of the club when we was Newton Heath, when the team was a small loco working mens team in Newton Heath, on what is now the Sharp Electronics site.
If the Green and Gold is offensive to the Glazers, then they need to look back into the 90s when we had the centenary kit which was based on the green and gold Newton Heath kit with the laces…
I dont see how that could be deemed offensive or “Not appropriate club colours”..
Saying all this though, the Glazers know fuck all about our history… thus why they didnt show at OT for the Munich anniversary on Saturday.. so what the hell will they know about our traditional colours…
Anyone travelling to Milan should use body paints in green and yellow, that way they cant do fuck all about that.
Cheeky fuckers the glazers, and thought david gill had a bit more about him, but obviously the 100k a year rise in salary has sorted him out.
LUHA plain and simple.
United’s statement is incongruous with the official Milan policy, which requires flags to be approved if they are not in official club or country colours but absolutely does not prohibit these items. In any case, the point may be moot given that green and gold has been a ‘club colour’ since 1878.
Milan will also aid supporters who wish to fix banners to the stadium and then remove them at the end of the match.
Quisling indeed, Dan. What you fail to realise if that as owners, the Glazers are as much a part of this club as the manager, the players, the entire staff in fact. So if I am collaborating with the enemy as you suggest, then by your definition the enemy are all of the above. So well done, you ought to be very proud of yourself for that achievement.
And to be clear, I am not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking. That is a MUST tactic. I am a person, not an organisation. You think what you want – it’s a free country. But you can either get the reality check now and focus on the football and hopefully another great year in the club’s history, or you can continue to expend/waste your energy on something that, let’s face it, isn’t going to result in anything. It didn’t in 2005 and it won’t in 2010. 2015 maybe? I’m not so sure myself.
And understand this, in order to contribute on this, or any other United blog, you do not have to share the same views. Those who happen to be the silent majority (OK minority on some blogs) are not necessarily trollers. I’ll comment on footballing matters too, when I feel the need to.
So let me ask you this question. How comfortable are you sharing the same platform and perhaps even the same extreme views as some posters who incite murder, hold celebrations to mark the unfortunate victims of stroke and talk about desecrating graves etc? I don’t see you rushing to condemn these people. And yet, you will round on the likes of Dave Mack, Wakey, United Fan and I, who put across our points in a calm, logical and respectful fashion – without the bile and vulgarity of others.
And I will stand by my remarks about unfurling banners on February 6th. Totally inappropriate, in my opinion. Are you asking for a medal for not chanting ‘die Glazer die’ during the organised silence? Please.
For context, I am a long standing season ticket holder who is becoming bored with the constant whining of some people about their club’s owners and masters. The same people (inlcuding the previous generation of malcontents) carried on about CM Edwards and they are doing it with the latest generation of ‘fans’ with the Glazers. It’s a question of authority, some people accept it, others don’t and never will. Be it in the classroom, workplace, the law of the land or at Old Trafford.
Im in the glazer out camp and i dont give a fcuk who know’s it. LUHG
A Milan official denied it, but it JUST got on the official site, before it had no such thing as Club Colours
SEF – So last season when we went to Inter the club posted a warning on the site telling us we could only take red banners? No, course not. Whether it’s Italian law or not, the club are trying to stop us taking in our green and gold, and are putting pressure on the fans.
Lest I forget amongst all this financial intrigue.
I’ve been meaning to say since I started posting on here that the Green and Gold campaign reminded me of this…
…for me, ERIC CANTONA SCORED HIS GREATEST EVER GOAL in the Green and Gold colours, against Southampton I believe, anybody remember? Time fades the memory and the goal isn’t on youtube, but I remember the way he took one touch and BANG volleyed it into the back of the net. It was similar to the Arsenal goal where he took it on his chest then struck it, but that Volley for me was the greatest ever. He was under pressure, he had to adjust his feet and was 20 odd yards out – but when the ball randomly fell to him he calmly controlled it and struck it on the volley. Class. that goal always stuck out and that technique was the one I wanted to emulate most. Cantona scored many many great goals for us, its hard to say which is best, but for me if I HAD to pick ONE, that would be it. He showed poise and power and that balance sums him up. And best of all he did it in the classic Green and Gold away kit. Quality.
@Red Devil
Exactly. Although I think that both sides shouldn’t be proud of some posts. On one hand death wishes and on the other hand, as you said, an annoying superiority complex. This is Scott’s blog to run, but the Glazer issue won’t get settled here. And it seems like we are going round and round recently. No one will join or abort the Gren and Gold campaign over a blog.
@Paul Parker
That goal was against Wimbledon at Selhurst Park I think. Fantastic by the King.
@Paul H
I notice from one of your posts last week that you seem to characterise (or mischaracterise) this as a ‘class’ issue, in several senses.
The sign off line in your reply above makes the same inference – i) that it’s a small minority who feel this strongly ii) they’re a ‘feral’ element who don’t speak for us (well-to-do accountant types, who ‘shoot the breeze’ with Manhattanite businessmen and when we’re back in England retire to our houses in the leafier parts of south Manchester……See! In identifying the poverty of imagination, it’s hard not to fall into the same lazy stereotypes….)
You’re clearly a very smart bloke, so I won’t labour the piss-taking. You’re right – it’s better to construct an argument dispassionately and logically without speckling your opponent with bile and flob.
However, like I suggested – there is a legitimate time for militancy. Without anger no revolutions are brought about. Of course I don’t want some elderly Floridian chap who can barely wipe the dribble from his chin these days, die before his time. I agree – those kind of gibes are in poor taste. People go too far – but you have to put it into context.
Anger boils over – but it in no way impairs the logic of the motivation.
********
And – yes, i’d rather talk about the football, but this issue is a defining one and as such it generates more than the usual amount of comment.
@Paul Parker
I think united win that match 2 1 and i can remember the goal, typical eric finish.
@ King Eric
I’m sorry if I touched a raw nerve there mate….all i meant to say is that some of the posters seem so caught up in the financial side of things that they completely ignore the footballing side…at least thats what i felt anyway because these posts have absolutely no connection with the football side…
@ Paul H – with all due respect the Glazer’s are not “..as much a part of this club as the manager, the players, the entire staff in fact.”
Once they have extracted the last $ they will more on. To put them in the same bracket as the manager/players/staff is offensive – never mind that we the supporters didnt’ even get a mention.
Separate point the constant reference by some to Norwich colours is classless in the extreme and the language of a day tripper that doesn’t know nowt.
A really effective protest would be to turn your back to the game and remain silent. Best done at a home game. Five minutes would do it.
Cheers fellas, I think your right it was Wimbledon, absolutely classic.
___________
Sorry to switch the convo back,
@RED DEVIL
Cheers for the reponse, and yes, I was aware of the dubious nature of the arguments being put forward in support of the Glaziers business model, but I still wanted to hear them out. Communicating on the internet isn’t easy when the subject is either complex, emotive or both, so for me to understand the counter-arguments in support of the Glaziers I need to start from a position of “I know nothing” so I can be open minded to whats being put forward and make my own mind up. My Gut feeling has always been I don’t trust the sickly looking Bastard and My view on the topic hasn’t changed. United was stable under a PLC and had minimum debt if any at all. Although certain benefits do come with a single owner, we have to pay a high cost to make that transition. The result has been our Glorious club being plunged deep into debt, with no end in sight. Cheers for you input.
…
Its an emotional issue so I don’t want to offend anybody with my post, this is just how I feel about it – probably as confused, apathetic and angry as the next (average) fan.
My main problem with the Glazier Family is they’re being disingenuous with the facts. HOW MUCH DEBT IS THE CLUB IN ? Gill says 300 odd million, everybody else says 700 odd million, we need a straight answer before we do or agree to anything. HOW IS THE DEBT BEING REPAID ? WHAT IS THE REPAYMENT PLAN ? HOW LONG UNTIL WE ARE FREE FROM DEBT ? WHAT ARE THEY DOING TO GUARANTEE THIS TARGET ? WHO ARE THE GLAZIERS CREDITORS ? WHO WOULD SIEZE OUR CLUB SHOULD THE GLAZIERS DEFAULT ? these basic questions (and more im sure) need to be addressed first and foremost and I feel the Green and Gold campaign is the best policy to do that. The media will not ignore us if the RED DEVIL FANS are consistently brandishing G and G scarves and flags at games. That will make mainstream news, especially if celebs are used in the campaign to raise its profile. PRESSURE needs to be placed on the owners, and more specifically DAVID GILL, as he is more accessible then the shadowy Glaziers. We the fans need to demand to know whats going on first and foremost. Thats the first thing, thats BASIC. nobody knows what exactly going on, so Running Cap in hand to “London Red Knights” is not the fucking answer,you think the Glaziers are the only cut throat cunts ? HA ! Red Knights my arse – they too will put the club in debt to acquire it. Thats how it works. Are these Red Knights stating that they will be transparent with their fianances ? Are they offering Targets of when the club wil be debt free ? If they make their case along those lines then they should be considered as potential new owners, otherwise they are simply another DEVIL we don’t know. If MUST backs the Red Knights, they need to inform the FANS what the intentions of these (mainly) Londoners are, and if they plan to undertake a LEGAL OBLIGATION to reveal their fianancial plans so we have a target of when we would become debt-free. If they are not prepared to accept that level of scrutiny from the fans, then whats the fucking point of Red Knights ? Because thats the real problem, not foriegn ownership, not for me anyway, the owners could come from Papa New Guinea for all I care, IM WORRIED ABOUT THE DEBT I WANT TO KNOW WHAT THE REPAYMENT PLAN IS AND WHEN WE’LL BE DEBT FREE. So the anti-Glazier campaign needs to keep that as its main focus – transparancy at the club and an intention to be debt free asap, regardless of who owns it. The division at the club wouldn’t be so bad if the Green and Gold campaign was solidified. All the planned “stand outs” are gonna do is piss off and alienate other United Fans. In fact the last person to be affected by a stand out is Glazier. Thats not the way to go imho. If an old and decrepid Milian take an early lead because UNITED were up against the San Siro with Zero support, im not exactly gonna go skipping G&G scarf in hand to MUST. Im gonna be pissed off AT MUST, because whatever Glazier has done, he hasn’t effected our performance on the Pitch. Doing Stand Outs without POPULAR SUPPORT from the tens of thousand who fill OT isn’t wise its divisive and ill-advised. Because at the moment the average fan doesn’t have a clue whats going on, so before organising a DISRUPTION of your own team surely it makes more sense to organise a mass INFORMATION campaign ? How about you DISTRIBUTE information outside the Milan stadium and have G&G Scarves for sale? How about a petition to the BBC to interview Gill with set quetions ? Surely you could raise millions of signatures ? whatever you do, thats just an example, but my point is attempting to deliberately disrupt a United game without the Popular support of the United fans will NOT adhere people to your cause it will alienate your cause. Think about it, in the eyes of an average fan who PUMPS money into the club, “the Glaziers will appear like reliable people compared to the EXTREME LUNATICS boycotting their own team” – I can imagine the average fan thinking that, and without the support of the average fan the G&G is going no where fast. Considering the level of debt at our club hasn’t even been ascertained yet, advocating mysterious Red Knights seems a bit soft in the head, to be blunt. The Square Mile isn’t exactly known for its Charity, is it ? Jesus. Inform the Fans with Facts and let the facts speak for themselves, boycotting knock out games without popular support is suicide for the G and G movement. In fact, Glazier is probably hoping you DO boycott the match and UNITED are knocked out – DO YOU HONESTLY THINK THE G & G CAMPAIGN WILL GET STRONGER IF UNITED ARE KNOCKED OUT ??? You will not see any G & G next year if these stand outs in Milian fuck up our campaign – SURELY A CHAMPIONS LEAGUE CUP DRAPED WITH GREEN AND GOLD IS A MORE POWERFUL SYMBOL THAT WILL RAISE THE PROFILE OF THE DEBT PROBLEM HIGHER ?
If I was Glazier, I’d hope United CRASH AND BURN in Milan so ALL YOU GREEN AND GOLDS COULD BE ISOLATED AND NEUTRALISED. Because if G & G affects our performance, you can guarentee the PRESS will blame you for the results, and because the average fan isn’t aware of all the details the movement will be Over before it even starts. G & G has to be a “Popularist” otherwise its only going to cause division. Convince everybody at the games to wear the colours, THEN YOU CAN STAND OUT GAMES AS OFTEN AS YOU WANT. But acting like you have popular support now when you clearly don’t is ill advised and plays into the Glaziers hands. But thats just my opinion, I don’t mean to offend anybody, im just saying, as a humble fan, that the Anti-Glazier movement needs to gain more support from rank and file supporters before making such a dramatic and far reaching move. Spread Information, not Hate. Because like I said, Glazier will emerge more popular if this G & G campaign fucks up the MANCHESTER UNITED 2009/2010 Campaign. Just my opinion, and I dislike Glazier. End of Rant.
Red Devil – No worries mate.
@Paul Parker
The benefits comes in the way the club operates. If you just look at the transfer situation under the PLC we regularry got screwed over due to the PLC. The club was required to inform the shareholders of its intentions so it was easy for other clubs to come in and steal a march on us. Chelsea managed to do this a few times for example. Before Chelsea it didn’t matter too much, all it did was add an even higher amount of United Tax onto players as they knew our finances 100% as they could all get access to the detailed accounts and knew how much they could push it. When Chelsea came into the frame though they could spend more money and they could steal a march and pay well over the odds and have it wrapped up before we had a chance to even get it run by the shareholders.
That simplified structure helps not just on the transfer front but on every front of the club.
“If the debt really is 300 odd Million like GIll said, then why are they not singing it from the roof tops to dispell the popular belief its actually 700+ million and rising? why the ambiguity ?”
Lets be honest what would be the point. The media would ignore it and most fans would accuse them of telling lies again, just as they did when Gill said we had £140million of cash in the bank of which around half is and was available to Fergie.
Just look at the media and MUST’s claims on the debt level. They have been servicing the debt so how exactly can the debt value now be more than £700mill on £509million of borrowing? If you borrow £500k to buy a house and pay of the interest how much do you actually owe 5 years later? Its £500k still and its the same with United debt.
@NBI Red Onion
Except we aren’t struggling to service the debt. We made MORE profit AFTER servicing the debt than any other club in the PL made and more than 99.9% of sports teams in the world made.
@Tom
I will call you a hypocrite because thats what you are. You are claiming the Glazers are killing the club with the debt and then you are supporting putting the club in a finacial situation where asset stripping WILL have to happen to keep it running.
You will notice all these ‘Red Knights’ are hiding in the shadows except for Fred Done. All we know is most of them arr ‘London Money Men’ and then some Northern Business men and that they think that the Glazers will sell for 1.5billion. Add in 0.1billion to fund the take over and a minimum of 0.5billion to sort out and pay off the Bond issue (Unless they are willing to basically keep paying £45mill a season and hence be in the same boat that the Glazers are in they will have to pay this off) It will almost certainly cost more than 0.5billion as the bond holders are guarenteed a certain return so aren’t going to settle for the initial value.
So you are looking at these 50 Red Knights investing £45mill+ each to buy the club which when you look at the one person we know who is only a multi millionaire so is unlikely to have that kind of money that he can just ‘Give Away’. They will want the price driven down as the lower the price they pay the greater the return they make. In fact as Harris suggested fans should ‘Vote with their feet’ its clear this is their tactic and I would put money on Harris’s fee as the ‘negotiator’ for the deal including a bonus for getting the price down.
@Red Devil
You can piss off. Do you want me to start accusing you of being A Rent Boy or a Bitter because of you join in on the Scaremongering. If you paid any attention you would notice I post on other subjects as well, just as I have seen both Paul H and Dave Mack.
And quite frankly Big Bad Wesley brown is just scum. Wishing someone has a stroke makes me ashamed to be a United Fan if he is calling himself one. Infact he makes me feel ashamed to be a human being with comments like that. If I was Paul H I would actually be taking legal action against Scott and Big Bad Wesley brown for allowing that comment.
And Red Devil no-ones arguing that its the greatest finacial situation in the world, if we lived in a ‘Fairy Tale’ world there are better situations but in reality these ‘Fairy Tale’ options won’t happen. The situation we are in is as you admitted Manageable and isn’t the ‘The Skys Falling down” situation that many are making out. Yes theres some risks to it BUT at the same time every club in the world also has risks to the way they are funded. The differnce with United and many other clubs is it is a well run business, its not like we are Liverpool, Chelsea, city or most of the PL where they struggle or never make a profit.
Ofc a few years of missing out on the top4 could be a real issue but thats the same for any Club thats setup to be a top4 team.
It needs people to be level headed and not get so knee jerk. If people don’t like the Glazers and want to do none destructive protests thats fine but we shouldn’t be playing into the hands of ABU media who want to destroy us OR playing into groups like the ‘Red Knights’ hands who refuse to unmask themselves yet along with MUST are helping scare Fans and getting them to take actions which will damage the club with the sole aim of bringing the price down so they can take over the club and make significantly higher gains on their investment. If the Red Knights really cared they wouldn’t be having their mouth pieces in MUST and Harris encouraging actions that damage the club and they would also unmask themselves and be open and honest about their plans and how the truely compare to the Glazers so if the Fans wnat to put their support behind them like is happening they are doing so on valid facts.
@Costas
But once again I ask you which Football club, Sports Club or for that matter business in this world really runs on a no debt or almost no debt basis. I’ll use Chelsea as an example, they claim to be Virtually Debt Free but lets look at the situation. Their initial Creditors were largely paid off via a loan from one of Romans companies . This company has continued to pay loans to pay off creditors as the club makes a yearly loss. What Roman has just done is do a debt for equity swap so his company has written off the loans in exchange for being given Preferential Shares in Chelsea which gives them a Fixed Dividend each year.
As for the transfers lets be honest here not only have a number of our transfers been ‘Shock’ moves that weren’t telegraphed so were tied up before anyone else could swoop in. Even the ones that were telegraphed in the press were press rumours that we were about to make a move rather than them reporting that we were actually about to make a move. Vidic, Evra, Nani, Anderson, Tosic, Obertan, Owen, Diouf, Van Der Sar, Park, Larsson, Tevez were all generally deals that were under the radar. We also had players like David Silva who we had an offer accepted for before valencia backed out of the deal which no-one knew about until united announced that it had failed.
And we have paid slightly better values for the players we have bought when the prices would generally have been a few mill more under the PLC. The only one we have been really Screwed over on was Berba who we wanted and nearly had a fee agreed for under £25mill. Rafa has pissed Spurs off over his conduct at tapping up Keane and when a Fan sit posted a story that United had signed Berba which The Sun decided to pick up on and pass off as an official announcment pushed the price up, which was then pushed up further by transfer deadline day and city
@aig alex is god
So Fergie and Gill both state the money is there yet you want to keep calling them liars. And I don’t think Fergie has changed his mind per say, when the right player is there he is willing to pay high fees BUT you don’t pay the kind of 10mill+ premiums that are on some very ordinary players atm or even on some very good players. Ask yourself this would paying £50mill+ on Ribery have been a good deal compared to Valencia
@AlphaRS
1) I disproved many of the claims on the other thread. To put things simple someone who claims that “75-100% of profits go on servicing the debt” when we POST A PROFIT AFTER SERVING THE DEBT clearly knows nothing. The Cost to service the debt is paid BEFORE the PROFIT figure so paying out so the CLUBS profits would have to be between ZERO and 12MILLION for 75-100%. The profit figures he used stated 77mill profit and those were a year out of date. But using 77mill as profit then for 75% to be going on serving the debt that means the Profit before servicing the debt would have to be 308million which is more than the TURNOVER.
2) I can say that because you have to look at all the other clubs at our level who were charging more and have raised their ticket prices.
3) I can’t make statments like this because I don’t know? You are about that. EVERYONE knows that united don’t make money from Short sales as it was detailed in the press release for the Nike Deal when it was signed. This season the 3rd choice kit hasn’t changed this season, its the same as it was so thats 2 year. Sponsor changes do cause a problem but thats beyond. And when you consider the fact that that we have to have 3 strips and some of those are ‘Special’ kits which would make no sense having for more than the single year and Sponsor changes force a kit change its not a massive amount (1.6 new kits per year). Its not any more than any other club.
4) I can’t say I notice the Bond Brocuher mention it but so what. They were selling the bonds in countries where Sports Clubs are francises so you keep it in terms they understand.
@FailsworthDevil
“Saying all this though, the Glazers know fuck all about our history… thus why they didnt show at OT for the Munich anniversary on Saturday.. so what the hell will they know about our traditional colours”
People are now just clucthing at straws to find new reasons to have a go at them. Did you really want them at OT on Saturday? Surely it shows more understanding than you are giving them that they didn’t distract from the day with the feelings towards them
@Scott the Red
They haven’t said you cant take Gold and Green banners just that Milan may decline anything not in club colours. They aren’t even saying don’t apply for GReen and Gold flags either
@Wakey
Well, United pre-Glazer were running almost debt free weren’t they? I see what you mean though. And as someone else said before, this was the only way this club was going to be bought by anyone. And that’s my question. Why would anyone leverage a buyout the way the Glazers did? Because they are United fans? Why fix something that wasn’t broken?
Also, I have wondered about another thing. How exactly have they made us better? On what basis? Transfer freedom? I will give you that, but it’s still not good enough. What’s their plan for the club? How will they balance debt service and on the pitch success with Fergie’s exit looming and the squad ageing? All I hear is that anti Glazer protesters are influenced by the ABU media. What is so great about the Glazer regime that the ABU media doesn’t want us to see.
To add to your post, Anderson and Nani were also bought under the radar. However there have been cases, apart from Berbatov, where we didn’t do things under the radar. Carrick and Hargreaves for instance. Tevez as well. It took us a while to sign him in the summer of 07. But it’s not like we were crippled as a PLC. Was there ever a case where we didn’t buy a player that Fergie wanted? They even did as Fergie asked and bought Rooney even though our spending was over that summer.
Ok Dan – looking back I can see how you have drawn the conclusion that my previous posts were about class. I should not have structured my comments in that way and I apologise to anyone who has interpreted my views as being ‘Glazer out equals inferior’ in any way.
If it’s a cause that you have researched, understood and genuinely believe in, then peaceful protesting and using the old colours is fine by me (I still have my green and gold strip, with laces and collar turned up, a la Cantona btw)
I have listened impassionately to all the different points of view, read through reams of collateral in the public domain and decided that right now I don’t support the campaign. If I start to see genuinely disturbing developments such as the the training facility or stadium being sold and leased back, or players being sold against their will, excessive funds being siphoned off into other Glazer businesses then I will stand up and be counted. Right now, it remain in my view an awful lot of conjecture and media mischief.
On a lighter note, there was one thing that happened recently that nearly made me change my view. I was travelling back from Boston a few weeks ago, sat in Hoolihans (American bar/restaurant chain) at Logan Airport having a quick burger and a couple of pints of Sam Adams with some colleagues. The waitress was bringing over another tray of beers and slipped, showering one of my team from head to foot in ale! This was ten minutes before our flight was boarding. I demanded that they pay for new clothes for him and our meal. The manager said she did not have the authority to do either, but that she would get him another beer!
So it transpires that the owners of Hoolihan’s, are none other than the Glazer family.
The moral of the story? I’m not sure, but be careful when you order a pint on match day
Cheers.
@Wakey.
Makes sense, I agree that the fans should protest, and I think that the Glazier Ownership should be placed under ENORMOUS PRESSURE by every single game being flooded with Green and Gold Scarves. The G & G campaign should be more media savy before it turns “Guerilla”. The movement would be more popular if properly explained. I think the fans would respond well to an INFORMATION campaign rather then a a HATE campaign. Facts normally speak for themselves, so if as many fans as possible are presented with FACTS then a really effective campaign can be built from that, and change will come. But a section of fans not turning up to Games just plays into everybodies hands BUT the club. The last person to be hurt will be the Glaziers. The Green and Gold campaign will prove ENORMOUSLY UNPOPULAR if it can be blamed for our performances and/or failure to progress in the CL/PL. Like I said, if I was Glazier I’d hope the G & G campaign back fired and knocked us out the CL so support for it would die down. Everybody knows the media hates us so why give them the ammunition to destroy us? Fans need to be fed information not Hate. Fans need to turn up to all our games cheering our team on to GLORY with a SEA OF GREEN AND GOLD. Imagine we win the League at home in our match with Liverpool at the end of the season AND THE STADIUM IS FILLED WITH GREEN AND GOLD ??? that is how you place pressure on Glazier, not fucking about away from home in Milian. Fill the San Siro with the colours don’t leave our team alone on the pitch. There are so many ways to raise the profile and apply pressure. A PETITION should be signed and sent to the BBC to re-interview GIll with specific questions. If he says the level of debt has been reduced to 300M then that should be PROVED BEYOND DOUBT for the benefit and security of the club. Eitherway, im against London Bankers taking over the club on the back of a distruptive campaign that will be harmful to the team on the pitch. Gain the support of the majority of the fans first before making any divisive moves. Green and Gold is the perfect campaign, but organising a “stand out” without having the support of the majority will fuck that all up and get us no-where. Us not winning anything this year won’t help anybody. Before it gets to that stage more pressure should be put on Gill, it was PRESSURE that made him do that interview in the first place – HAVE HIM DO ANOTHER ONE with specific set questions about the level of debt at the club and the time frame we can expect to see it paid off. THATS A START. because if we’re making a profit after servicing the Interest then we should be working towards reducing the Principle and hence the Interest. Having that DEBT hanging over a previously Debt Free club is not a price worth paying for our newly found private ownership. We need to concentrate on being debt free first and foremost, and we can’t do that without knowing how much we’re in debt and how its being repaid. GIll can answer that, so pressure should be placed on HIM, not our players on the pitch.
@costas
Your rite mate, how many times under the plc did we break our own transfer record.
I’ve not been able to enter into this debate this morning and now have a busy afternoon!
The one thing we can all agree on is that this is a hugely DIVISIVE issue and whether you agree with him or not you’ll understand it is for that reason the SAF wants to keep the protests in check.
My only request to every true UNITED supporter is to ask yourself what in the end of the day is a “good” or “bad” owner of a billion pound enterprise which is the current day reality of the club we love.
To me, as I’ve repeadly said, if Fergie gets the support he needs in terms of transfers and players contracts and he can turn that into sustainable success on the field why are we trying to second guess him?
The premise that because they’re Americans or because they have used debt to aquire the club they are some how “bad” owners is simply not bourne out by any actions or inaction relative to football matters. To the contary, their support is being lauded by David Gill (who’s own son plays for the club don’t forget) and the man who more deseves our trust than any one else Sir Alex Ferguson!
So ask yourself why’s this come up now …. and who’s agenda is it serving? Make your own minds up and don’t be manipulated by misinformation.
LU -IFIT
@Wakey
Sir Alex is right on the fact that players arent available for the right amount but the situation isnt going to change anytime to soon.he didnt have all the money to spend form the ronaldo sale.If SAF could increase his offer from 20 million to 30 million for 27 year old Berbatov,why didnt he raise it by 6-7 million for 21 year old Benzema whom he was intrested for years?. He has been ready to break the bank for players he wanted desperately in the past,so why this now?The summer transfer window will make things much more clear i guess,with the world cup coming up we may have to be ready to pay inflated prices or risk missing out on talented players
Not saying he is lying .He does have money to spend but not all the Ronaldo money and certainly not 80 million.
@Dave Mack
Who the hell said that being American makes them bad owners? What does that have to do with anything?
David Gill supports the Glazers. You said it yourself. His son plays for them. Not to mention the paycheck he gets. But he is not the issue. I never had high expectations from him anyway. Sir Alex supports the Glazers and we have to take his word. Sorry, I took his word when he said he wouldn’t sell Real a virus and from that point on I am wondering why Michael Owen wears Ronaldo’s jersey. Trusting someone doesn’t mean believing everything they say. I trust Sir Alex to come up with the goods as a manager.
So now we get to the point. Anti-Glazer protesters are doing what numerous fans all over the world are doing: They are protesting against a regime that they feel damages their club. It doesn’t make them less fans than anyone else.
no way aig calling sir alex a lier again
but he never does that not even once just that kinda one time,
theres 100million there it was 2 different bids for tevez and benzama
that the players didnt take
I dont think the glazers started up on the right foot which fucked the club up as long as it goes on. they need to get out .
but there is kitty money
@ghtt
SAF and gill said that real offered more money, they did not say that he wanted to join Real which possibly could have been the case.not denying it. The tevez transfer was due to be completed in summer of 2008 or jan 2009 but we didnt take that option and kept on delaying it finally tevez ran out of patience and eventually didnt accept our offer because he thought we didnt treat him well enough
Not saying SAF dosent have funds.What is this new rule that we wont go in for expensive signings over 26 years, when that is the age when players are supposed to peak?
As i said before the summer window will make things much more clear.We will know for sure whether SAF has money to spend,if yes,how much?
aig
he also said value for money
not every player is worth 80 million
ghtt
agree but then consider the situation now and also consider that we are United so we have to pay some 3-5 million pounds extra compared to other clubs.With City, Madrid,Chelsea and Barcelona willing to spend for every talented player there will be a bidding war and we may risk losing out everytime. There will be very few players for whom we wont face competition from other clubs.The current situation looks like it will stay for a few more years, so if we want to sign top players we will have to pay a bit over the top.
So I Guess I Might Get A Tattoo Saying
Alex Is god
In Sir Alex we Trust
Shame Sir Alex Is A Corporate Brown Nose Sell Out That Always Liers To Us Stupid Fans
@ghtt
Sir Alex is not lying to us but the club arent supporting him financially which is obviously there to be seen.Because we are winning this thing isnt coming out now but God Forbid if we dont win anything this season and are found wanting in certain areas all fans will want him to spend and depending on the situation we will realise the truth.As i said earlier no point debating about it now, well see in the summer.
At no point have i used the word liar so i cant see where that has come from. All i am saying is all the facts havent been presented before the fans by the club, not Sir Alex.
I see wat your saying aig, fred done has said SAF is working with his hands tied behing his back, but he’s only known the boss for donkey years, wat wud he know.
Aig – How do you know for definate Fergie hasn’t the money? He feels the squad is strong enough and in the main I am inclined to agree. Cannot see him splashing 10-12 million as reported on a young Chris Smalling in January. Thats a fair bit of money for an unproven talent. You may of course be right mate only time will tell. The summer like you say.
willierednut – Hi mate. I don’t pay much attention to Fred Done. Not a fan of him to be honest. I remember him saying we were fucked back in December on talkshite.
@Costas
The PLC was ‘broken’ in a way. It wasn’t able to be efficient in the marketplace and wasn’t able to take full advantage of the opertunities. Turnover and Profit have both more than doubled and while some of thats Ticket prices being brought more in line to our Rivals (Liverpool especially) and some of its the improved TV deal a large part of it has come down to opening up new commercial opertunties and also making the club itself more efficient. Its the fact it was ‘Broken’ that made it a takeover target as people saw the chance to improve it as a business.
And I have to ask why should they explain their plans in full detail? Both the Glazers and Gill have said they have it under control and even their bond issue made it clear that spending on top class players to enhance the squad was essential and would still be done BUT people choose to ignore that so what exactly would laying out the whole plan and hindering the clubs ability to operate at full efficiency do?
As for your examples of things not being done under the Radar. Tevez’s deal was fairly under the radar. For over a year all that was being heard was that we were signing Torres. The Tevez deal was actually a bit of a shock and the only reason it seems to have dragged on was due to the complex nature of his ownership which to get everything agreed and rubber stamped by the FA took time. Hargreaves was also initially a bit of a shock move, Bayern leaked it to the press as they often do to push fees up and get bidding wars going.
And I didn’t say it stopped us buying players persay, it just made it harder for us to get the players we wanted without other teams getting wind and pushing the price up. And we did miss out on players due to the PLC. Robben and Ronaldinho are two that jump to mind
@aig alex is god
There is a major difference between Benzema and Berbatov.
We were battling Man City for Berbatov, a team whose only reason to join was either for the money or as a fall back. Berbatov did not want to join them. It was also debatable how much higher City could go with the buyout happening so late in the day.
With Benzema we were battling Real for him. Real is one of the the elite clubs in the world who many players would like to goto. Which one of United or Real is bigger really depends on where you come from. Our Offer had already exceeded the price of Berbatov but he Benzema has expressed that he wanted to join Real (While he has since said he would have been happy to join us if he had to choose he was always going to choose Real). So to get him we would have had to outbid Real, based on their last offer for Villa that figure was going to be over £45million.
And no he probally doesn’t have the full 80mill as money was spent during the summer. We bought players in the summer and the available money doesn’t just have to pay the transfer fee but also the signing on fees and the likes for signing players.
“SAF and gill said that real offered more money, they did not say that he wanted to join Real which possibly could have been the case.not denying it.”
We tried to steal a march on Real while they were trying for Villa and had an offer accepted by Lyon. Benzema had spent all summer stating he wanted to play for Real though and it had to be concluded quickly, Lyon then tipped their hat by confirming that they had accepted an offer that wasn’t from Real. A combination of Lyon releasing a statement saying they had accepted an offer from a club that wasn’t Real and Benzemas people holding the deal up to get Real to put a bid in saw real Gazzump us and the only way we were ever going to get a player who declared it was his dream to play for Real was to outbid them so we were the only offer on the table. That was going to be 45mill
“The tevez transfer was due to be completed in summer of 2008 or jan 2009″
Actually according to Kia there was nothing more than an informal agreement on the table. When the deal was concluded or how much was never in the terms just ball park figures suggested. So I doubt it was actually budgeted for
“What is this new rule that we wont go in for expensive signings over 26 years, when that is the age when players are supposed to peak?”
I doubt its a rule thats set in stone but lets be honest its not a bad rule of thumb. You don’t want to be paying top dollar for a player at his peak who it would suggest is only going to get worse when you can pay less for the a future star that could do a decent squad job now and will be a superstar in a year. I also would imagine that its not just a ‘rule’ at united but across the board just like the “1 year contracts for those over 30″ is a general rule in the premiership
“At no point have i used the word liar”
You don’t need to say the word liar. He has said that he has the money to spend and chose not to and you are saying he isn’t be supposrted finacially. Thats implying he is telling lies. We bid 35mill for Benzema and paid 17mill for Valencia, 3mil for Obertan and an undiscosed fee for Diouf which would have been atleast 2mill. Thats a total of 57mill BEFORE you take into account agent fees and signing on fees. You then have to add in Owen who would have got some kind of signing fee AND the offer for Douglas Costa at an initial 7mill. And in Jan we obviously signed Smalling for 12mill (And we may very well have signed Dodo in the summer for £5mill although we will have to wait till he is old enough to sign before we know if it did go through or if United pulled out due to the pressure from Football authorties)
@Costas
“Sorry, I took his word when he said he wouldn’t sell Real a virus”
When he said that though I think it was in the heat of the moment. In reality when a player wants to go and you have a firm offer at the level Real put in I don’t think you could really let principles get in the way. Look at Villa with Barry where they they lost out on an offer of 15mill + Steve Finnan for principles and were then forced to sell him for just 12mill the season after
Good Points Wakey
Still don’t like the Bastards tho, lol. I agree with why the owners and Gill have no desire to reveal their financial plans in full. Of course they don’t.
BUT… I still feel that the G and G campaign should continue to apply pressure on United until they “improve” their public relations operation, because at the moment they’re really taking the piss.
By that I mean, Gill shouldn’t be taking a defensive approach in his statements and interviews, he should understand our concerns and reassure us not show his frustration and criticise us. If we really ARE only 300m in debt he should constantly dismiss the counter claims of 700m as complete and utter bollocks, because lets be honest, how many rank and file fans understand the inner workings of a ONE BILLION POUND STIRLING GIANT LIKE MANCHESTER UNITED? I sure for one don’t.
the majority of fans have no clue about these issues and simply want FACTS so they can feel reassured. So rather than take the high road Gill should turn on the charm and be honest and patient with the Fans, this level of debt is new for us and the MEDIA isn’t helping either. If Gill and the Owners addressed the basic questions and concerns he would bring more stability to the Club. Its so simple, him not doing it is suspicious for some.
And THATS why I support G and G at the games.
The Owners needs to understand and acknowlege that this issue is dividing the club, and we want CLARIFICATION. The BBC interview is a step in that direction, but its not enough unfortunately, and even tho I understand them not wanting to disclose their finances, I think that the situation is deteriorating enough for them to make an exception. If the club has reduced the Principle from 500 odd million to 300m then he needs to be clear on that. Crystal Clear. Saying it in a BBC interview would be enough under normal situations, but this isn’t normal, so he needs to be pressured into changing the defensive approach the Owners have towards the Fans. He needs to improve the public relations and turn on the charm offensive, because not doing so is becoming more and more detrimental.
But like I said good points Wakey, the problem is, WHY should the average fan have to delve into the internet on sites such as this to glean pieces of information to make up a full picture? Why should the average fan have to know what YOU know, per se? That BBC interview was far too defensive, Gill needs to do an interview with the Papers with tought questions and DEFINITIVELY PROVE that the current debt is 300 million like he said. That information alone would change the atmosphere at the club – just knowing there has been a reduction of debt would force everybody crying that United are on the brink of Oblivon to tone down the scaremongering and be more accurate with their Anti-Glazier rhetoric. I guess its like politics, where politicians continue to take the piss until they get a bloody nose. Eitherway, until the owners change their approach that, the rumours will continue….
which is understandable, because right now, the amount of debt we owe is uncertain for most fans. whose fault is that ? the fans ? fuck off, its the OWNERS fault, cos they’re the ONLY ONES in a position to put us all in the picture… or risk the wrath of “disgruntlement” from the SUPPORTERS.
@Wakey
As far as Ronaldinho goes, I think it was Peter Kenyon fucking up more than anything. We got cocky, PSG got fed up and chose a different club. The Berbatov case almost had a similar outcome. Luckily for us, City got into the game too late and Berba had already made up his mind. As far as Tevez and Hargreaves go, things were never going to remain a secret. Not the way the transfer maket operates now. Look at how long it took to sign Smalling. Clubs and agenst will always look to bring as many players to the game as possible.
Say you are a neutral. On one hand, you have Davig Gill, a man who was against the takeover at first, and the Glazers, whom you know very little about, just saying that everything is ok. On the other hand, you have papers and financial analysts giving you detailed analysis about the status of the club. Who is easier to believe? Man United is a private company. They want to operate in a secretive manner? It’s their prerogative. They can’t expect fans to buy into everything they say though. And contrary to what United fans might feel quite often, reporters don’t wake up in the morning thinking of ways to destroy us.
The last 4-5 years have been very profitable, but the club won’t always be this succesful. Also, you can’t keep increasing seasont icket prices without a cost. And that’s why I am asking what is their backup plan. Because they will need it at some point. Things won’t always be so rosey. I want to believe that they have a plan to keep the squad strong, but where are the contract extensions for talismatic players like Fletcher, Evra, Rooney and Vidic? I won’t say anything about transfer yet, because I am on a wait and see basis for the summer transfer market.
@Wakey
About Ronaldo now. Principles don’t mean much, I agree. But if Calderon’s comments are to be believed, we had already agreed to sell him at the time the virus comment was made. So either Fergie didn’t know the full story, or he was lying. I find it hard to belive that he didn’t know at the time that Real would come back fo Ronaldo with that kind of offer.
Wakey – when you look back on it now united should have kept with tevez and let shitty make complete idiots of themselves by buying berbatov, who would have suited the dumb transfers they were buying.
has for that ass colderon he is saying this to get more attention because he is such an awful president I would not take any notice, fergies comments I wont sell that mob a virus was aimed at calderons camp not madrid in general.
well the glazers are worryed and aint it disgusting they sack a steward of 19 years who was against their ownership.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/manchester_united/article7021240.ece
and whats with gills debt comments united are in 300 million of debt if that was the debt why dont they just pay the entire debt off at once.
@RTNK
Well as they say, you don’t cross the boss. It sucks for the steward, but I didn’t expect any better. Anyway, why would Calderon come out and lie about this? What’s in it for him? If the deal to sign Ronaldo was made before the summer of 09, then we did do business with Calderon.
Costas … to answer your question… I didn’t say that being American make the Glazers bad owners, nor did I suggest that you said it.
I was simply trying to address something that has been said directly in various posts on this site or inferred when they are accussed of “not understanding the English football culture” or “not having love of the club in their hearts” or the fact that they “refer to the club as a franchise” or that “the red knights would at least understand us” etc etc.
My point being is that good owners understand how to invest and run a global sporting enterprise and whether they are from Manchester or Montana should have no baring on it.
In all honesty I much prefer the Glazers to Chelski or Shity’s ownership not because they are Russian or Middle Eastern but because they interfer in football matters.
What protest did you see at the bridge when their sugar daddy removed their most succesful and loved manager because of personality issues and unwillingness to allow interference in transfer or team selection matters?
It’s ironic that United who have arguably the least interferring ownership in the league, the ones that are most supportive of the manager and vice-a versa is the one that is be subjected to an aggresive “owners out” campaign. Makes you wonder whose manipulating who and why?
LU -IFIT
Costas – well it shows the glazers are worried and the protests against them are growing every hour of everyday.
- Cmon this muppet calderon is just begging for attention he wants to get any kind of legacy he can get from madrid its what clutching at straws. if it ment he was part of ronaldos transfer he will thinke has something gain if it ment air imeoreoney pafor his story he will. So if ronaldo creates legendary status at madrid and ronaldo is part of madrids golden era of the new bullshit gallacticos legacy, which is going to fail. say its a success? calderon will say I played my part making it happen. you will be suprised what ends guys like calderon will go to get attention, he is like some ugly elephant man version of paris hilton well maybe not that ugly but you get my interpritation he just wants the lime light simmple has that.
@Dave Mack
Didn’t take it personally. I see what’s happened. I remember Paul H(i think it was) saying a story about an American asking if the protests revolved around the fact that the Glazers are Americans. And I honestly can’t understand how that notion came along. There might be a few daft people here or there who think like that, but it’s a non issue for me. For one thing, you don’t have to be a fan to run a club in a succesful manner.
It’s true that the Glazers haven’t interfered. But has that theory been put to the test? Who would interfere with Sir Alex’s work anyway? Chelsea fans on the other hand, didn’t have much to look forward to until the Russian came in. He revived them, so their loyalty with him, not Mourinho. Besides, what do you expect from Chelsea fans? They still think Terry is the best England Captain ever!
@RTNK
Calderon is a twat either way. No debating that. But when do you think the decision to sell Ronaldo was made? Not that it matters a great deal nowdays, just curious. Personally, I feel that we decided to sell him about 6-8 months before he signed for Real.
Dave Mack – well for me I prefure neither the shitty chelski and our ownership. I dont care what wakey says for me a fans ownership is the only way forward long term for united. unless a rich owner with bottemless pockets who does not interfier and spends wisley on tranfers and wages then a fans ownership is the only model for me, bcause when a owner leaves you want a ownershiip that will be debt free and knows how to spend wisley and run the club profesionally so the club wnt get into sticky situations, and with the money the club makes fans ownership in this era of football will be perfect.
Costas – na united did not agree at the time. I think united and ronaldo in august 2008 propably agreed we will sell you a year later but keep it qiuet we just want another year out of you and get to 18 league titles, and a chance to make history try and defend the european cup and be the first club to do it in the CL format, it was just the carrot and goal to keep him here for one more year.
@RTNK
Yeah, I kind of feel the same. I just think that we informed Real about this. Or at least Ronaldo did. That’s why I don’t believe that Calderon is talking out of his ass this time. Fergie was right to deny the reports at the time. Just shouldn’t have been so defiant.
Anyway, it’s 2:35 am over here mates, so I am going to say goodnight to all. Lets hope tomorrow at the same time we will be top of the league.
@ Wakey, mack etc
You know what guys…. you can keep trying to defend the glazers as if they were saints.
Both of us can keep coming up with points to counter each other and this debate can drag on endlessly for ages.
For instance-
We didnt miss out on robben and Ronaldinho because we were a PLC, we lost out because Peter Kenyon was an over-smart idiot, the players wanted to play elsewhere(ronaldinho) or were simply offered more money(robben)
If you are trying to imply that there were information leakages due to being a PLC, the same thing can be said about Berbatov and Chris Smalling deal in the Glazer regime, where the only reason we won was that the players were wanting to play for us and that we were prepared to pay extra sums to get them, both in case of berbatov and smalling.
You keep saying we made profits after the interest payments…I certainly dont see any profits in the accounts of red football ltd last couple of years…excpet if take into account the Ronaldo money which as I said is not gonna happen every year.
So as you see, I can accuse you of lying and perpetuating and spreading lies just as much as you can accuse me of scare-mongering.
Do not try to misrepresent facts to suit your own end. I am not scare-mongering, I am just facing up to the facts for what they are, not trying to bury my head in the sand and hope that everything turns out alright.
As Paul parker right points out, if indeed things are so hunky-dory, why dont they come out and be TRANSPARENT about it…why be afraid to come clean, where are they investing the surplus funds to generate astronomical returns greater than the PIK debt? just tell everybody so that we can all rest in peace!
@Wakey
I get your point. However there are some things i am worried about. Fair enough on the Benzema thing. He had stated he wanted to play for Real since the summer of 2008 and even though SAF and gill said Real paid more the reality must have been they let it go due to him wanting to play for Real.
Also 80 million from the Ronaldo sale and 20 million which is his budget for the window,that makes it 100 million.We have spent approx 35 million on valencia,obertan,diouf and Smalling so there should still be 65 million plus the 20-25 miilion SAF is given every transfer window.Now will he get 90 million in the summer to spend?. Remains to be seen
Therefore the summer will give us a clearer indication of the issue.With Scholes nearing the end and we havent yet replaced him(anderson was supposed to do that but hasnt) and Berba and Owen not having done as well as expected and the constant speculation surrounding Vidic SAF certainly will have to spend in the summer to strengthen the team.
SAF has said he has money to spend. Has he ever said how much? which is what my concern is.so you cant blame him at all. Hardly expect him to reveal that amount but if the Glazers say he has all the Ronaldo money to spend, they must back their words and give him all the funds he needs.
@King Eric
Not definite by any means but i have my doubts especially with some new shocking financial revelations coming out every week that suggest we arent in the best position financially.The smalling transfer suggest otherwise although the picture will become crystal clear in the summer.
Hope i am wrong and SAF has money to spend. Whether he wants to is his choice of course,who knows better than him but i feel this summer he will have to spend and spend quite a bit.
Aig – Morning mate . Yeah thats just it though, DOES Fergie need to spend big? I ain’t so sure. Of course a lot depends on if Edwin and Scholesy call it a day. Will Ando step up. Will Diouf be an answer? Nani looks a different player? The twins? Will Cleverley and James provide options? So much talent coming through I am not so sure Fergie needs to spend big. Maybe one or two players thats all. Most of our spine are only still late twenties as well. Fletch, Carrick, Vida (if he stays) and Wazza only 24. Our squad is still excellent.
@King Eric
I doubt we will spend that big in the summer anyway because of the new squad rules in the EPL that mirror the CL rules. As the CL squad issue shows our squad is too big already and some of those on the B list now will have to be A list players.
If any player is brought in its going to see a couple go out first so we won’t see mass spending IMHO. It will be a player or two to enhance the squad and may not even be automatic starters being signed but squad players who will grow.
@Costas
Kenyon was a factor in Ronaldinho BUT it wasn’t Kenyons own money that was being spent. He was working on instructions of having to do the best deal possible for the shareholders. Barca were also fully aware of the offer that was about to go in from us despite PSG never officially acknolowleding a fee had been agreeded until after the Barca deal had gone through. Even with Kenyons messing around we might have been able to still have pulled it off before Barca could get a bid in. Now yes Kenyons a complete tool and i’m sure if Gill was doing it he would have not only got the right deal for the Shareholders and got the deal through BUT with the PLC and the tool that was Kenyon it was always going to fall through especially when Ronaldinho had said in the past that Barca was his preference.
On Ronaldo. Its hard to believe anything Calderon says. I suspect that he is just trying to take the credit to make his term in charge look successful. Remember he also claimed that
1) They had agreed to sign him in the summer of 2008
and
2) That in the Summer of 2008 they had agreed to sign him the season after.
Now its Decemeber 2008 when they agreed to sign him. He should make up his mind.
“Personally, I feel that we decided to sell him about 6-8 months before he signed for Real”
I wouldn’t be surprised if internally SAF, Gill and the Glazers decided it would be best for all parties to let him go in the Summer if he wanted to go BUT I doubt we actually agreed anything with Real until the offer came in as it did seem as if SAF still thought he could persuade him that this was the club for him (Just look at the tactics employed at the end of the season that seemed to be building the team around him as the main focal point of the attack)
@rooney the new king
Its not actually United sacking him though and tbh he has probally been sacked for theft. TBH i’m sure any of us would be in the same boat if we took something that had been confiscated at our workplace
While Berba has yet to show his best it is debatable who was the better choice. Berba after all does bring something to the team that no-one else at the club has where as Tevez was really a worse version of Rooney.
“I dont care what wakey says for me a fans ownership is the only way forward long term for united.”
The thing is not ONE person has posted anything that proves Fan Ownership is credable. The only argument anyone ever brings up is “Barca do it” but they ignore the fact that Barcas setup is the setup of Real and even more worringly Valencia. It also ignores all the Finacial help these clubs get (As I have said before Valencia are in a finacial position that make Portsmouth look sound, yet in the summer o 2008 they could turn down £25mill for David Silva from United and then in the Summer of 2009 could turn down amounts approaching £45mill from Real and Barca for Villa).
And remember at all these clubs Fan ownership means very little in reality. You get a vote on the president and thats pretty much all the control you have. Its the president who has paid his running fee and has guarenteed investment who then runs the club however they see fit
And how do people think the profits are enough compete alone? And do you really think you can grow these profits at a decent rate under fan ownership. Is a Fan ownership going to be ok keeping ticket prices at the current price or even increasing them OR are they going to demand they are reduced knocking millions off the turnoever. Will they have the contacts and the business knowledge to open up new income streams. Will the have the business skills and nerve to try new things on the business front to increase turnover
Also the Fans CANT afford to buy the club. Take the 5 biggest ‘Fan’ owned sports teams of Barca, Real, Valencia, Bilboa and Green Bay Packers and they have fewer ‘Fan owners’ than we would require just to buy the club with each person paying £1000. It would require someone else to fund most of the takeover and the amounts they would have to spend they WILL require a return and our voices will be meaningless. After all lets say the Glazers released some shares to the fans today, unless it was 51% of the shares do you think that the fans would have any real say? Ofc not.
All those who support the Fan ownership idea are living in dreamworld just like those who think that the ‘Red Knights’ are automatically better than the Glazers. If either a Fan Ownership or the Red Knights want Fan support then it should be done on a plan thats fully detailed and based in REALITY and addresses every issue thats on the table. Until then we shouldn’t be helping destabilise the club on a pipe dream that there is a better ownership structure than we have
@Red Devil
Where is anyone making out the Glazers are saints. Despite people like you wanting to imply that we have something to do with the Glazers to help your cause and while I can’t speak for the others I certainly would in an ideal world prefer we weren’t owned by the Glazers. That doesn’t mean I should be joining the OTT reactions of the masses and the pinning hopes on Fan ownership deals that have no basis to them or in the case of MG’s are totally based in cloud cookoo land OR some ‘Red Knights’ who hide in the shadows and get their public face to encourage fans to take actions that damage the club only to reduce the price they will have to pay so that they can then make more money from the deal.
“I certainly dont see any profits in the accounts of red football ltd last couple of years”
Thats because the Red Football accounts don’t show a profit but those aren’t the clubs accounts. Red Football is a holding company of the Glazers setup for accountancy/management reasons. While it is linked to the clubs accounts its not the same. The club accounts show a profit. This is opposed to Liverpool where both the holding company and the clubs accounts generally have shown losses
“Chris Smalling deal in the Glazer regime”
I’m not sure we can say there was much leaks with that tbh. It was a deal that was done very quickly and didn’t break until it was pretty much fully agreed
“We didnt miss out on robben and Ronaldinho because we were a PLC”
As I said to Costa the PLC played a part. It showed our hand immdediatly. With Robben it allowed Chelsea to steal a march in getting a bid in and accepted.
“why dont they come out and be TRANSPARENT about it”
So now you not only want them to be transperant about the club itself BUT about their whole business empire. Tell me this would you be willing to give all your finacial records to your employees and customers? Ofc you wouldn’t.
Not sure if this has already been mentioned but surely Green and Gold are still club colours!? Other wise why would we have had them during the 93/94 season? And we’re still the same club as we 1st were when set up as Newton Heath.
LUHG
1 or 2 players mite come in, if the money is there of course.
Wakey you keep repeating yourself when in reality it can work, barca are different they are self funded while madrid are funded by the goverment.
I hate the guy but to just say tevez is worser than rooney when tevez himself will get past 20 goals this season is poor judgment, yes he may not have the vision and the teqnique rooney has but he is still is way better than berbatov no offence. And the irony is tevez and rooney both have scored more than ronaldo and twice the amount berbatov has scored, add the fact tevez is a great impact sub overall he makes far greater impact, and he has shown his worth and in the big games like against us he was always a threat which like him or hate him you got to give him credit for which a lot of players are judged.
@rooney the new king
Barca are NOT self funded. They get aid from the Barcelona Local government and local banks just like Real do.
Also Barca’s main funding source just like Reals comes from the vast amount of Investment (Thats Investment so has to be paid back) that the president brings in and which then gives them free reign to run the club as they wish. And once again the Fans have pretty much NO say
Wakey – you keep downing the prospect of fans ownership when the club is making tons of money of players sales tv deals old trafford sell outs shirt sponshirship deals, united will not even have to be funded by some goverment. add the fact red knights will help towards funding the club it is far better than the freeloaders running the club who are such bad owners they make abramovich seem like angels.
@ Wakey
i still dont see too much of a difference between the PLC deals of Robben and the Smalling deal and Berbatov deal of now. In both cases, there were information leakages which bumped up the price for us. te only difference being in this case the player was either determined to play for us (berbatov) or that we outbid Arsenal for smalling(just as we were outbid by barcelona and Chelsea for ronaldinho and Robben). So I dont think there’s too much of a difference there.
Are the club accounts published ?? On the Man Utd site, i just found the accounts for Red Football….
In any case if you see the holding structure, Red Football’s principle assets are the club itself and the losses of red football are after taking into account the hedge losses, management expenses relating to the club only etc. So if you pierce all the corporate veil, basically overall we are losing money as I see it and I dont see any reason to think otherwise…
Just tell me, if a company is making just book losses without any “real” losses in actual fact, then wouldn’t it try to offer some explanation in the notes to accounts, etc to keep the stakeholders like bankers, financiers, creditors etc informed ?
I am just trying to trust my own judgement and experience here, not some sensationalist tabloid stories…you could have known that if you had just read my article or comments carefully…..
I have not ever tried to imply that the situation is completely out of hand, just that the way things are it is too risky from a financial prudence point of view and sincerely I dont see the cash flows to be able to pay down the debt, as well as providing enough to sustain our success. The risk of a downturn in our performances or fortunes is too huge.
What if the club fails to qualify for europe one year—-a loss of almost 40 million in cash flows means we are barely able to pay down the interest..leave alone the principal portion of debt service….and with the holding company making huge losses I dont see them in a position to help us out.
As for transparency, all businesses in the world have to disclose their basic dealings in an annual report….at least disclose the balance sheet depicting the true state of affairs at the club. then we can know for sure how much the net-debt is, how much cash sits in the bank accounts, where have they invested the surplus funds hoping to generate returns greater than the PIK debt (which as I already pointed out in earlier post is a very unlikely scenario as otherwise our bonds wouldn’t have been subscribed)
I am just a fan who is worried for the club. I do not like the way the Glazers have been piling on the excessive leverage, which you surely must agree is excessive by any stretch of the imagination.
@aig alex is god
Gill said we had £55m to spend.