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Dippers Reclaim “Murderers” Tag… and We’re Immoral For Singing About It?

As our players paraded the European Cup around the Luzhniki Stadium, our fans sang song after song about our success. With another trophy to our name, one of our chants was updated. “We’ve won it three times, we’ve won it three tiiiiiiimes, without killing anyone, we’ve won it three times.”

This is a chant I’ve seen face criticism over the years, with Liverpool fans likening it to their sick chants about Munich. The opinion that the two are comparable comes from ignorance or being misinformed.

Liverpool played Juventus in the 1985 European Cup final, and the Heysel stadium was an inappropriate ground to hold such a fixture. Crumbling and old, as many grounds were then.

Liverpool fans crossed the fence which separated the two sets of fans and charged. The Juve fans were forced to retreat and under their pressure of getting away, a wall collapsed. This lead to the deaths of 39 as well as injury to a further 600 Italians.

All English teams were banned from European competition for five years because of the behaviour of Liverpool fans, with their club receiving an additional years ban.

If United fans were to sing songs mocking those fans who died, like Liverpool fans singing about the players who died in Munich, then the “without killing anyone” chant would be rightly called sick. However, that’s not the case.

Liverpool chairman, John Smith, told reporters that he believed Chelsea fans to be at fault. Red and White Kop produced articles about the incident, referring to Smith’s actions.

John Smith had told reporters that he believed the trouble to be the fault of ‘Chelsea fans’ – it was nonsense, clutching at straws. There had been fans of other clubs there, there always is in major cup finals, but not in any significant numbers.

Liverpool continued to distance themselves from Heysel, refusing to apologise, placing blame anywhere but on themselves. It was only 20 years after the incident, when the clubs were drawn against each other, that any recognition was given.

Liverpool presented a banner of ‘friendship’ to the Italian club, which listed the names of the 39 Juve supporters that died at Heysel. This was met with jeers and whistles, the away support turning their backs on Liverpool’s gesture.

In the return leg, trouble broke out, with fans of both sides throwing missiles at each other. Juventus fans held up banners to remind the Liverpool fans of what they’d done, ensuring they knew there was never going to be ‘friendship’ between these clubs.

So, is the song we sing about not killing anyone poking fun at those Juventus fans who died? Is it mocking the dead? Is it fuck. It’s reminding those scum bags of what they did, after they’ve fought long and hard to wash their hands of it, blaming it on bloody Chelsea supporters!

Well, like homosexuals have reclaimed the term ‘queer’ and black people have reclaimed ‘nigger’, it seems that now Liverpool fans now refer to themselves as ‘murderers’.

As the dippers beat Everton in the Merseyside derby a couple of weeks ago, the away fans were heard singing “2-0 to the murderers”. Whilst some sections of Liverpool fans have supported it as an ‘ironic chant’, there will be plenty more who are sickened, and probably, totally embarrassed by their fans. Let’s not forget this is a club that tried to shift the blame of Heysel all together, so to adopt the name “murderers” is hardly in keeping with the angelic picture they’d like to see painted of themselves. At Heysel, it was Chelsea’s fault, not the Liverpool fans who charged the fence; at Hillsborough it was the police’s fault for not opening the gate, not the hordes of fans who climbed over gates without tickets; and to a lesser extent, following their recent European Cup final shenanigans, it was UEFA’s fault for hosting the game where they did (clearly learning from the mistakes of Hillsborough!!), not the fans who stole tickets from others, produced fakes, or forced their way in ticketless. Although, there’s no real need to go down that path.

Whilst not one of them, I’m not ignorant enough to believe that there aren’t United fans who sing about Hillsborough and Michael Shields. They’re not chants you hear inside the ground, but in crowded boozers, you’ll hear them on the day the dippers come to down. I’m not writing this article claiming United fans are innocent. All teams have sections who behave in a way you wouldn’t want them to, as the recent incident between Spurs and Portsmouth proves, however, I don’t feel any shame for the “without killing anyone” chant. It isn’t about winding up fans over deaths they feel hurt for, their own being taken away prematurely (like Munich and Hillsborough chants are), rather exposing our hated rivals as the scum bags they are, making them face up to their shameful past.

It was reported this week by Oliver Kay in The Times that United players sung this chant on the pitch following our win in Moscow, yet my reaction wasn’t one shared by many. I remember when a tabloid showed a video of United players singing all our songs after winning the title in 2007 and I loved it. It was great to see how many of the songs the lads had picked up and to watch them drinking away, singing like reds in pubs all over Manchester, felt good to see. I felt no differently after learning they sang the “without killing anyone” chant on the night we made it three times.

Kay made a big song and dance about it though.

I don’t find the “murderers” chant acceptable. I don’t find “Without killing anyone, we’ve won it three times” acceptable (and that, unlikely as it may sound, was actually sung by the United players on the pitch at the Luzhniki Stadium in Moscow in May).

Now, if you perceive this chant to be one mocking the dead, then I’d understand the outrage. If Jamie Carragher and Steven Gerrard were singing about Munich after a game, I’d be absolutely livid. If Ryan Giggs and Gary Neville were singing about Hillsborough after a game, I’d be embarrassed and ashamed. But singing about Liverpool fans being scum bags, whose violent behaviour lead to the deaths of 39 people, is not something I condemn, particularly when you consider the majority of players who were singing it probably had no idea what it was about, rather just wanted to sing about winning the European Cup.

As for the dippers, the fact that they now refer to themselves as ‘murderers’ only makes the chant more acceptable. If we were to refer to ourselves as ‘Munichs’, the name primarily used by City fans, then what could we possibly complain about when they did their very best aeroplane impressions next time they come to Old Trafford (when their “There’s only one Frank Swift” chant, which made its first, and probably last, appearance on the Munich memorial match, will be forgotten).

On the rare occasion that Liverpool fans don’t sing about Munich when the teams meet, there will often be a chorus of “Where’s your famous Munich song?”. Unlike the scousers, who are laughing off the accusations of their murderous fans, we are exposing them, again, as scum bags, who mock innocent people who have died. It’s as if to say, “not going to poke fun at those 23 people who died today, eh scum bags?”. Kay compared this chant to scousers reclaiming the title of ‘murderers’. Again, he is wrong.

I have often wondered what Sir Bobby Charlton thinks when he hears United fans at Anfield asking “Where’s your famous Munich song?” I don’t find “Where’s your famous Munich song?” acceptable.

There are some chants we will join in with, which are intended to wind us up. “Who the fuck are Man United?” is a song we cheer, before singing it back at our opposition. Who the fuck are we? Who the fuck do you think we are? The Champions of England and the Champions of Europe, so fuck you. The opposition fans won’t make the mistake of singing that song again that day!

Kay would only be correct in his comparison if we reclaimed the name ‘Munichs’ and sang their Munch songs, which we would never do.

Regardless, we’ll get branded scum for singing “without killing anyone”. On a football forum I was told I was putting “spin” in my defence of the chant. However, for anyone who gives more than five seconds thought to it will be able to see there is nothing ‘scum-like’ in us singing it. Bad taste? Yeh possibly, but had the dippers not attempted to rid themselves of all blame for so long, there’d be no need for the chant. Don’t riot and kill people and don’t blame it on someone else. Simple. If you do both those things, then you deserve a chant or two to highlight the scum of your past.

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About Scott

Scott is the editor of Red Matters - 50 Years of Supporting Manchester United and an author of Play Like Fergie's Boys and Not Nineteen Forever. He writes for ESPN, The Metro and Bleacher Report. Follow @R_o_M on Twitter.

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21 Comments

  1. mickey mouse owen says:

    i just f*ckin hate liverpool, and the scouse bastard fans, trying to be angelic and all. well F*CK ALL YOU SCOUSE C*NTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  2. TK 99 says:

    brilliant,keep up the good work.

  3. timbo says:

    Is any of this crap really necessary? Economic and social pressures must indeed be dire if whole sections of club fan bases have so little in their lives that supporting football becomes a metaphor for all out war. You think think the world is really changing for the better when people act like this over a damn football team?Is this kind of sick tribalism really needed?

    People need to get some balance and perspective in their lives. This is just a game, a sport, 11 guys kicking a round ball backwards and forwards across a field against another set of 11 players. I’ve been a supporter of United for over 40 years and would stand my ground against anyone when it comes to claims of passion for the team, but I never lose sight of what it’s all about and where the real issues lie in life – certainly not on a damn football pitch.

    It sickens me beyond measure to watch a game at Old Trafford against City or Liverpool and hear the ‘Munich’ chants from opposition supporters, all the while seeing Bobby Charlton sitting quietly in the stands listening to the derisive insults being thrown against the team mates he watched die so tragically. I can’t even begin to imagine his thoughts, nor wonder at the kind of disgusting animals who could even think to chant such stuff, particularly in the knowledge that Charlton is more than likely listening in .

    United supporters doing the same to other teams is just as bad, even if it is reactive behavior to the barbs they’ve listened to for years from the likes of Liverpool’s fan base.

    Get a life and some perspective, people.

  4. Tony_Oldham says:

    Boris Johnson hit the nail on the head with these lot………. SELF PITY CITY.

  5. A MAN UNITED FAN says:

    2-0 to the murders?????

    what scum

  6. Jig says:

    I don’t agree with any chants that refer to disasters such as Munich or Hysel. As much as I dislike Liverpool, the Football club, I think it’s completely inhumane to use these events in mocking an opponent. I have friends who follow the vermin and although they are unbearable when talking about football, you’d never believe it . . . they’re just normal folk.

    The hatred between fans is extremely unhealthy and also unnecessary, rivalry shouldn’t descend into violence or provocation and these chants only serve as a catalyst for such situations.

  7. miele says:

    Word to everything Jig posted. It’s great that there are United fans like you, speaking out againt the ugliness.

    Unfortunately in football chants there is often that hint of totally unnecessary mean-heartedness / ill taste. Hatred always spills over.

    Personally I think it’s possible to celebrate a momentous win demeaning anyone, however deserved. It’s called ‘rising above’.

  8. miele says:

    Er, I meant WITHOUT demeaing anyone.

    But to each his own.

  9. Marvsharpe says:

    Is it right to chant about disasters, no matter what the fans “message” behind it really is? Well think of it this way – If any family members of those 39 who died at Heysal heard that chant, do you think they’d sit back and say “Yep, it’s about time someone sung about the disaster and reminded Liverpool of what they did!”, or do you think they’d be hurt at how their loss and greif can be used by fans in a way to “get one over” on oppostion fans!?!?

    I’m all for banter and giving each other stick, but common human decency means that involving the victims of any disaster and their families in the banter and the stick should not even be thought about, let alone sung in pubs or the terraces.

  10. suhayl says:

    Very wise comments from utd fans. Brilliant…esp marvsharpe/ jig and timbo

  11. Red-Manc says:

    Munich/Hillsbourgh chants are never acceptable, but ‘Without killing anyone’ isnt bad at all its stating the obvious, we havent killed anyone whilst we’ve won it three times. scousers are scum and a breed of people that need to wiped off the face of the earth very soon, our “without killing anyone” doesnt mock the dead in anyway like it says in this article it just points out what scum the scousers are, it also in some ways shows were on the same side as Juve because we find what the scousers did disgusting and dont agree with it.

    Justice For The 39.

  12. Lone Ibex says:

    ‘Dippers’, eh? Does wonders for the credibility of the article that… Oh, and as for reminding Liverpool fans of what murderous ‘scum bags’ they are… That’s of all them then is it? All 41000 in Anfield, many of whom weren’t even BORN when the Heysel disaster took place, most of whom weren’t there? Castigate them for being ‘scum bags’ because of a few hundred pissed up hooligans who behaved in much the way English supporters of all clubs often did on the continent at that time? I must add also that 40% of those charged for what happened at Heysel weren’t even from Merseyside. I’d also like to add that a few of my mates were in Liege for Liverpool’s Champions League 3rd Round Qualifier in August and had drinks brought for them by smiling locals – complete strangers who couldn’t even speak English – simply because they were Liverpool fans. Keeping in mind that this is Belgium, where the Heysel disaster took place, and a country Liverpool have not often visited since – and thus had few opportunities to clear their name directly through their own good behaviour – I think it says a lot about how Liverpool’s fans are generally regarded 23 years on. In fact Liverpool fans are very warmly received more or less wherever they go in Europe.

    15 years of domestic supremacy and still United fans sing about Liverpool at more or less every game. 2-0 at home to Bolton last season, and we hear about Steven Gerrard handing in a transfer request, not to mention against Blackburn the other week, they can’t even mention their inferior European record without attacking Liverpool, whether its fans or players it seems. That for me says everything about the vile, poisonous, malevolent and indeed small-time culture of United supporters. I can tell you now that you will not hear Liverpool supporters singing specifically about Manchester United when their team are not playing them. What you will hear is the Kop applauding every opposition goalkeeper warmly as he makes his way towards the goal (Van Der Sar very much included) and chanting the name of any European opposition we face at the final whistle out of hospitality and respect.

    So it’s United fans who are the Shithouses, no argument possible.

  13. Scott the Red says:

    Lone

    1. Your own fans call themselves “murderers” now, so I don’t see why you’re so upset. Who knows, they might be singing “2-0 to the dippers” next time you play, watch this space.
    2. Your club denied all responsibility for the disaster until decades later, blaming Chelsea and anyone else. That’s not the 41,000 fans inside Anfield, that’s Liverpool Football Club.

  14. Lone Ibex says:

    1. Writing in haste I neglected to comment on the ‘murderers’ debate, but I agree entirely with Oliver Kay. Given the vile shite Liverpool fans have had directed at them for so long about Heysel, I can understand the desire to bait those responsible by ‘reclaiming’ the word, but I cannot agree with it or accept it, because it trivialises – no, virtually mocks – the deaths of 39 people.

    As for ’2-0 to the dippers’, why not. It’s a shite insult anyway, and fuck knows where it comes from. I wonder how many moron United fans who sing about Scousers in council houses themselves live in council houses…

    2. Heysel was the responsibility firstly of a few hundred thugs, principally those in the Liverpool end (and probably mostly Liverpool supporters, but as I say, 40% of those charged were from elsewhere), but also those who partook in – and by some accounts instigated – the missile throwing in the neutral section, which was effectively a Juventus area. It wasn’t the responsibility of the club itself. In fact, the club appealed to UEFA in the weeks before the final to move it to a more suitable venue, being concerned as they were about the dilapidated state of the Heysel Stadium, and UEFA, in hosting the final in such an inappropriate and poorly maintained stadium at a time when ‘fan’ violence was pretty regular in European football, and for presiding over such poor organisation, policing and segregation, were somewhat responsible for what eventually happened because of their total and utter failure to take adequate measures to attempt to prevent clashes between hooligans at a time when they were commonplace.

  15. Scott the Red says:

    I hear all your talk and your excuses and your reasons… but none of it changes the fact fans from the Liverpool section charged the fence, 39 people died, and your club washed their hands of it for decades.

  16. Lone Ibex says:

    John Smith, Peter Robinson and Joe Fagan et al didn’t do anything though did they? If they did fail to acknowledge that it was Liverpool FANS/hooligans (or largely Liverpool fans at least), then that’s inexcusable, but frankly I’m not going to take your word for it given that your probably one of these knuckleheads who refers to Scousers as ‘dippers’ or rat eaters etc.

    Now, would you care to answer any of my claims about your support and your culture and attitude in contrast to that of the Liverpool supporters? You had a pop at Milan Baros with ‘you Scouse Bastard’ earlier this year for fuck’s sake, a Czech who left Liverpool three years prior, and that’s the least of your Liverpool obsession.

    You cannot argue against the fact that, with the track record of English football supporters at that time, it could have been any club whose ‘fans’ ended up having a major part in something like Heysel, hardly an especially damming endightment that it should be Liverpool fans given how many games the club were involved in in Europe when British hooliganism was at its worst.

    And also, people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. Aren’t Manchester United the only club whose fans/hooligans have been responsible for the deaths of other clubs’ supporters for three decades on the bounce or something?

  17. Scott the Red says:

    Don’t take my word for it. As I state in the article, check out Red and White Kop. They detail John Smith’s response, blaming Chelsea fans: http://www.redandwhitekop.com/article.php?id=480600

    It wasn’t any other club though was it? It was your club. And your club blamed it on someone else. You can’t say every other club would have responded in the same way. Liverpool FC always like to point the finger elsewhere. It’s always someone else’s fault when your fans behave in a disgraceful way.

    Why do you care whether or why we hate you so much?

    I think this sums up the answer fairly well.

    Choose Liverpool. Choose the dole queue. Choose to scam disability benefit. Choose mind-numbing, grinding efficiency over flair. Choose Torben Piechnik, Istvan Kozma and Paul Stewart. Choose not to win a single league title since the backpass rule was implemented. Choose penalties. Choose car stereos, hubcaps and stanley knives. Choose to trade on your proud sense of tradition and then not lift a finger in protest when two American billionaires who don’t even know the name of your club decide to buy it. Choose to win the European Cup whilst only having to play seven matches. Choose to bask in a perpetual, sickening, media love-in. Choose celebrities who fuck off out of your city as soon as they have earned the money to do so and then spend the rest of their lives harping on about how wonderful it is. Choose to sing about Munich until confronted with your own tragedy. Choose to end it all in an orgy of self pity, just another excuse to perpetuate the grief culture spawned by your selfish, insular fucked-up excuse for a city. Choose your future. Choose Scouse.

  18. Lone Ibex says:

    Of course all of the above in itallics is absolutely true and thoroughly reasonable to the word, and not bitter sniping rubbish. And it’s also very adult and noble of you to resort to it digging it out and bringing down the whole level of the discussion to anti-Liverpool posturing predicated on the tiredest and weakest of stereotypes (let’s not get into the relative crime and violence rates of Liverpool and Manchester/Salford, not to mention the attitude of the people which, as a native of neither but a former resident of the latter and regular visitor to the former I have some views on, football allegiance totally aside) when I was trying to have a more reasonable debate (and to get some answers) about how you can point the finger at Liverpool fans when we’re received so well wherever we go, respect and appreciate even our fiercest rivals (applauding Van Der Sar for example as I said), while you’d rather sing about Steven Gerrard than your own players while playing Bolton and Blackburn to name but two I’ve noted in the occasional United match I see.

    I won’t take your word for it by the way, I’ll have a look at the link. I’m sure you’ve got a point. Maybe that will make you feel better about the fact that you even slander Scousers in the chants that were devised for your own player and that you sing about Hillsborough in your thousands at Old Trafford each year. Did you hear that Kop singing about Munich this year? That’s right, you didn’t. Scousers, frankly, are a better class of people. Ask anyone who isn’t a fellow Mancunian/United fan or a bitter Chelsea idiot.

  19. Scott the Red says:

    Ok ok, less of the stereotypes then. I’ll just go for cold, hard facts instead.

    - “Johhhhhhhn Arrrrne Riise, oooh ahhh, I wanna knowwwwww, how did you break Smith’s leg”
    - Helping Smith to the hospital
    - Offering our fans the height of Liverpool’s culinary experience
    - Sharing European Cup Final tickets
    - Redecorating Old Trafford

    Of course, Liverpool fans aren’t worse than any other. I’m sure you can show me similar stories from a ‘lower class of people’ than Liverpool fans who are guilty of the same crimes. Feel free to show me news stories of these other fans, whether it be United’s or any other team from the Premiership, in your response.

  20. Red-Manc says:

    scousers are attention seeking rats from the self pity city, singing ‘murderers’ doesnt suprise me really i wouldnt expect anything different from them, there vile scum but atleast they have realised that now.

  21. Pathetic says:

    This article is a complete pile of rubbish.
    For one to start, Liverpool fans accept that they played a huge part in Hysel and its disaster aswell as many other contributing factors, inciting revenge for Rome was daft.
    Secondly signing without murdering anyone reminding us of what we’ve done? How about sing about your own teams achievements rather than reminding fans, who 99.99999% had fuck all to do with Hysel.
    Also you seem to fail to mention the people in the away end who clapped the banner and appreciated it.

    Also ‘Red-Manc’ saying we sing murderers? No we don’t, we have it sang at us, when the majority of us hate the fans who participated in causing so much trouble at Hysel.
    Also it is nice how the Ingurlish media fails to ever mention what happened to our fans in Rome or how Italians never received punishment for it.

    Every set of fans has holligans, at the last Merseyside derby an Everton fan stabbed one of his own because he was walking with his two Liverpool mates.

    If you think singing any songs referring to Munich,Hysel or Hillsborough or any other disaster in any way is acceptable, you aren’t a fan and a thug, and singing ‘won it three times, without murdering anyone’ is just thuggish and pathetic.
    Your lot sang it and about Hillsborough at the FA Youth Cup game, there are pathetic fans on both sides and the author of this article needs to get a grip, you are insulting millions of people based on what colour of a shirt they wear, might aswell be racism.

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