John Aldridge’s take on Luis Suarez’s racial abuse of Patrice Evra has always been embarrassing, but after reading his latest Sunday World column, it appears as though it’s not just his Liverpool bias which has lead him to look like an ignorant prick when it comes to racism.
To give you some context to Sunday’s column, here is a selection of some of Aldridge’s most ridiculous remarks on the issue, which come from several different articles he has written.
If Suarez is cleared then it’s only right that Liverpool should ask the FA to ban Evra because it’s very damaging for a player to be accused of something like that.
Of course, if you can’t prove that someone has done something, the accuser should be punished. I’m sure that’s what they do when a woman can’t prove that a man has raped her, right? Lock her up for accusing him without having enough evidence to prove it happened? Clearly Aldridge hasn’t given any consideration to what an impact his idea would have on trying to kick racism out of football. Why would any player report a case of racist abuse if they know they will get banned if a camera hasn’t picked it up?
The Spanish language experts even admitted that if Suarez’s version of events was true then his use of the word ‘negro’ wouldn’t be deemed racist in South America. We also know that Evra’s own United team-mates refer to him by that name and he doesn’t take offence at that.
The language experts said that the word “negro” may not be deemed racist if said between friends or in a friendly way. The fact that Suarez and Evra are not friends, were in the middle of an argument, during one of the most hate-filled games in England, proves that Suarez did use the word in a racist way. Why Aldridge things Evra’s team mates call him “negro” is beyond me. I think he’s got his stories confused, after Suarez revealed that he calls Glen Johnson “negro”.
If Suarez is guilty of anything (and I’m still not convinced he is, by the way), it is of being too honest for his own damn good. Too honest for admitting he used the word ‘negro’ in his exchange with Evra, as that gave the FA a chance to hang him out to dry in this grand manner.
Poor Suarez.
The Liverpool man then hit back by using a term that is not considered to be derogatory at all back in his native Uruguay.
It appears as though Aldridge can come out with any old nonsense and get it printed, even if it directly contradicts what the independent language experts said in the report, which says: The word “negro” can have pejorative connotations, as it may be associated with low class status, ugliness, vulgar behaviour, noisiness, violence, dishonesty, sexual promiscuity etc. The word can be employed with the intent to offend and to offend in racial terms. Suarez responded with “Porque tu eres negro”. This would be interpreted in Uruguay and other regions of Latin America as racially offensive. When the noun is used in the way described by Evra, it is not a friendly form of address, but is used in an insulting way: it is given as the rationale for an act of physical aggression (the foul), as if the person deserved such an attack since they are black.
My favourite article of the lot though, which I’ve really struggled just to take selective quotes from, is entitled “Football is the biggest Luis-er”.
I cannot help but feel Suarez has been used as a scapegoat and been made an example of by the FA as they go out of their way to show they have zero tolerance on racism in their ongoing battle with their old foe Sepp Blatter at FIFA. Blatter’s comments – that racism on the pitch can be resolved by a handshake at the end of the game – caused a real stir a few weeks back, and now the FA have been made look even more foolish by coming down so heavily on Suarez.
The bigger picture must be that this massive fine and ban for Suarez has opened a real can of worms, as players will accuse an opponent of abuse of all varieties from now on. When that happens, the FA will be forced to launch investigations and may be handing out massive bans on a regular basis.
Football became close to a non-contact sport some time ago, with players getting booked and sent off for minor challenges. Now we may be getting to the stage where you are not allowed to say anything on the pitch either. At that point, the game will be impossible to control.
I’ll never forget playing a Merseyside derby at Goodison Park when some Everton fans were throwing bananas at John Barnes. I was throwing them back into the crowd that afternoon and there was no punishment for Everton after that incident. It was unforgivable, but that was the way of the world in the late 1980s.
I was regularly called a Scouse **** or an Irish **** by my opponents and, in my eyes, that is racism. Skin colour is only one form of racism, but it seems to be the one that is taken more seriously than any other kind of abuse.
What a lot of people don’t know is that Suarez’s grandfather is black, so it is pretty stupid to suggest he is a
racist. No, I believe this is a story of cultural differences getting Suarez into hot water and he is paying a heavy price for it now.
We are bound to see accusations of racist abuse rising in the weeks and months ahead and that will do the campaign to rid football of racism no good whatsoever, as it will create a nasty cloud over the English game. Liverpool have no choice other than to appeal Suarez’s punishment, but the FA have made such a strong stand that they may not want to go back on their original decision. If this eight-game ban stands, football may never be the same again.
I don’t even know where to start in picking apart and laughing at this nonsense. The Liverpool fan who was found guilty of racially abusing Evra from the stands during our next visit to Anfield has mixed race grandchildren, so I suppose it’s stupid to suggest that when he was dancing around like a monkey that it was anything to do with Evra’s race.
Still, Aldridge hasn’t just been keen to defend Suarez but attack Evra too.
The Liverpool player has been hit hard on this issue, while the United man has been portrayed as a victim and the powers that be will not want to change that one-sided script now.
Suarez was given the opportunity to go some way to making amends for saying what he did to Evra that day at Anfield. Having never apologised to Evra, ahead of kick-off at Old Trafford, Suarez refused to shake Evra’s hand.
Suarez was given his chance to put the racism row with Evra behind him and instead he chose to make the situation far worse by refusing to do what he should have. Had I been in Suarez’s position yesterday, I would probably have swallowed my pride and shaken Patrice Evra’s hand for the sake of Liverpool Football Club. Everyone was watching to see if the pair would exchange pleasantries and the Uruguayan gave up the moral high ground by refusing to do so.
Wow. It’s hard to understand why anyone would think that Suarez needed to “swallow his pride” to shake Evra’s hand, as if Evra had done something to wrong him. It’s even harder to understand why anyone would think Suarez had the “moral high ground” in the first place.
Aldridge ended that particular column with a bit of comedy though, suggesting that it wasn’t Suarez at fault for shaking his hand, rather the fault of his agent. He also suggested that Suarez, who scored 11 goals last season (6 less than Yakubu, 4 less than Grant Holt and 1 less than Steven Fletcher and Danny Graham), would be wanted by Barcelona and Real Madrid.
I may be talking out of turn here, but there is a possibility that an agent may have got into Suarez’s ear and told him to kick up a bit of a stink to make his position at Liverpool and in English football as a whole untenable. There is no evidence that was a subplot at Old Trafford, but Suarez has certainly made his life and that of Liverpool much more complicated by his refusal to shake Evra’s hand before kick-off and it wouldn’t surprise me if Real Madrid and Barcelona are soon being linked with a move for the Liverpool No 7.
Is that enough context?
On Sunday, Aldridge wrote: “Patrice Evra opened a can of worms when he started his battle with Luis Suarez over the ‘negrito’ comment that caused so much controversy last year and the John Terry/Anton Ferdinand case served to put this issue even further up the sporting agenda. In the end, where did those two cases get us? These two cases set the ball rolling to where we are now, with everyone afraid to say anything, on or off the pitch, for fear they may be accused of racism or discriminatory behaviour.”
Let’s be clear, Evra didn’t ask Suarez to racially abuse him, but in reporting what Suarez said to him, he wasn’t “starting a battle”. What an absolutely incredible thing to say. Aldridge then refers to the ‘negrito’ comment. Which comment was that? Had Aldridge bothered to read the reported published by the FA almost a year ago, he would know that Evra claimed and Suarez admitted to using the word ‘negro’. Before any details of the case were published, some newspapers speculated whether the less racist term ‘negrito’ had been used and misunderstood by Evra, but as soon as the report was published, this theory was obviously dismissed.
I thought The Guardian‘s Sid Lowe and Sachin Nakrani were bad enough in their reporting on Suarez, but Aldridge’s rubbish takes it to a whole new level. It’s incredible that the Sunday World actually pay this out of touch prat to write for them. It’s also worth reading about what a nasty piece of work Aldridge was when he managed Tranmere Rovers.
———–
Criticism of Liverpool FC and Kenny Dalglish in Luis Suarez row has been over the top
Reds were right to back Suarez
Football is the big Luis-er
No happy Evra after for Suarez
The Suarez Report Broken Down on RoM
Man Utd News 24/7
He also said “The Liverpool man then hit back by using a term that is not considered to be derogatory at all back in his native Uruguay.”
Would you “hit back” at your bully with a punch that would not hurt? If you hit back, in those circumstances, it must mean to hurt, right?
You’re on drugs. Is that your schtick?
I’ve always thought there was something a bit nasty about Aldridge and if his treatment of the youth team players at Tranmere are anything to go by, my suspicions are confirmed.
I wouldn’t give any importance to his comments or opinions and if I was a newspaper I wouldn’t pay a penny to this prick for his bullshit articles.
The comments Aldridge makes in his Liverpool Echo are just as bad. Usually filled with digs at United and absolutely no common sense what so ever. He was very quick to attack the United fans after the last match at Anfield with the events after the game but made no criticism of the Liverpool fans taunting the United away end with Munich chants and airplane gestures.
Have no time for this idiot and his blatant hatred for United.
The daft blame game from Liverpool v Evra takes its lead in how the club responded to the incident. With the manager and spokespeople repeatedly commenting even in the face of the FA asking for silence. Not a surprise that the team, or the “Pooleratti” have not learned a new line.
But seems many of the most vocal fans, from all the teams, fail to move on easily. The Wenger peado bile emerging yet again from some sections of the United crowd. Even Arsenal fans didn’t seem to be able to understand the link. Singing similar songs about their former player Robin for an equally unsupported case.
One hangs ones head in shame at times. Rio commented on Arsenal traveling support being out of line in the songs. But then missed a beat by calling it banter. Banter to call someone a criminal who was never convicted? Go on then!
Off topic: Did Wilshere try to injure Evra? Either way it was a clear yellow for young jack, with most pundits agreeing it could have been a straight Red.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/manchester-united-2-1-arsenal-patrice-1417191
Slow news day then guys???
You don’t want to start looking like hypocrites do you? Especially after Ferguson has come out and backed Clattenberg to the hilt, refusing to believe he could have said anything remotely racist. The same goes with the Referee association who are backing their man. What kind of message is that sending out?
And how many Mancs are actually siding with Mikel, without hearing the evidence?
Pot.
Kettle.
BLACK.
What we really need now is a soundbite from Paul McGrath. It’s just gone 09:30, so I reckon he’ll be in the pub.
Good job LFC didn’t publicly support their player, eh, or all hell would have broken loose………..
Aldridge can go and choke on a fat black cock.
Absolutely disgraceful indeed!!
Shinji : Speaking from experience.
Why Jim, did Clattenburg admit to using racist language and then say ‘well in Newcastle it’s a term of endearment’? The person making the accusation actually does not speak a word of English so not really hard which one to believe. But hey poor Suarez eh? Always the victims.
Oh. Forgot to say.
Shinji : borderline RACIST.
Gorse – .Suarez only admitted it because he didn’t believe he was being racist. LFC should have just told him to deny everything. A bit like Clattenberg.
And you are now siding with the ref purely because the Chelsea player “doesn’t speak a word of English”. A bit jingoistic to say the least.
Jim, So Liverpool should have covered the truth for their own purposes (oh the Irony). Funny that Chelsea have actually backtracked on the events of that night knowing that they have no proove whatsoever. The sad thing is that Liverpool fans are wishing that Clattenburg used racist language just to have a dig at United because they are tortuted over United’s win. Pretty sick if you ask me but then what do you expect from Liverpool fans.
Though they occasionally beat us, the scouse only really have one way to hurt our club and fans ( or so they think). That’s via accusations,and insults. They try hate us, long may it continue. Apart from the occasional non scouse idiot, few would really take their views as sound. Most fans from other clubs I’ve come in contact with can’t stand them either.
Lying cheating untrustworthy bunch the lot of them. Born thrives on the docks at the car plants. Lazy and insincere. Why do you expect anything different.
Good morning Jim G
Within that pile of bullcrap Aldridge makes a pretty good point. Why does the phrase “black c**t” causa a national controversy while “scouse c**t” is considered normal banter?
There is a distinction to be found in the history of racism and un-equal opportunities between blacks and whiltes, but should there really be such a difference? Has anyone, player or fan, been accused/convicted of calling someone a “scottish c**t?” Should they have been?
Take Redbilly’s comments above for example. Obviously he is some nobody posting anonymously on a message board, but are his comments not more prejorative and discrimatory than anything Suarez or Terry has said on the field?
BTW – I’m not Jim G
Morning, Red. !!! (??)
Gorse. On the contrary, I’m hoping that Clattenberg said no such thing. Because I’m sick that every time things don’t go certain people’s way, they immediately use the Race Card. And I’m not particularly fussed that United won, certainly not “tortured”, because I am not fond of Chelsea either and don’t wish to see them run away with the League. So don’t flatter yourself.
I’m just concerned that this site keeps raking over the Suarez thing. I thought it was all done and dusted? Or are you lot “tortured” because he’s found a bit of form at last?
Jim makes an interesting point . How many here have been called northern cunts?. Proud to say I have.
Jim – Good points. Though Redbilly is deluded if he thinks we TRY to hate United….. !!!!!
And can nobody appreciate why LFC fans are slightly ‘miffed’ that “Negro” = 8 game ban, whereas “Fnckin Black B@stard” = half that….?
Jim- apologies from nobody re the confusion
Red – accepted.
Jim- you don’t try you do hate united, collectively anyway. Deluded, possibly, as we all are.
To be fair. Are we not bored of continually opening this topic ?.
Jim G, yet you have already admitted Liverpool should have covered up the racist language Suarez used yet and was very quick to call United fans hypocrites even though the Suarez and Clattenburg case are completely different with circumstances that are not even close (i.e. one person admits his racist language while the other it the accused party that have backtracked).
And yes it looks like you are tortured by United’s win with your more than obvious attack on United. Christ just look at RAWK to see the reaction of United’s results.
Jim G – pack it in ffs.
You can’t compare Suarez with Clattenberg. Everybody at Anfield (and watching from home) saw something happened between Evra and Suarez so nobody was surprised when the allegations were made. But what allegedly happened between Clattenberg and Mikel is completely different. There was no footage of Clattenberg spitting at Mikel, or pinching him, or patting him on the head – so IF Mikel was racially abused it wasn’t as obvious as the racist abuse Evra DID receive.
More to the point, Evra told the world what he heard with his OWN two ears, and United were very clear about what was being alleged, and by whom. But you can hardly say the same for Mikel and Chelsea. Mikel didn’t even hear the alleged remarks himself ffs and the person who allegedly did isn’t on TV standing by what they allegedly heard. Not even Roman Abramavich knew what happened ffs.
So basically, comparing the two incidents and accusing United supporters of hypocrisy is either lazy or fucking stupid.
All Ferguson said was he didn’t believe it – thats not the same as saying it didn’t happen. I personally don’t believe the referee stood there in a microphone and called him a monkey, but that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, In fact I wouldn’t be that surprised if it DID happen. But right now, its hard to believe that a EPL referee was stupid enough to say that out loud, into a microphone, and within earshot of players. Thats the bit I have trouble believing straight away, and from Fergusons comments thats the bit he doesn’t believe either.
So when Ramires (or whoever allegedly heard it) goes on record and stands by their allegation, maybe i’ll think differently, but right now its all tabloid gossip – UNLIKE Evra’s allegations, which came from the horses mouth. Chelsea FC don’t know whether they’re coming or going on this one. Was Mata also insulted? Did Mata also hear it? Depends what RAG you read, and thats the problem.
So yeah, theres no comparison between Evra and Mikel whatsoever – Evra PROVED he was raically abused and Suarez ADMITTED IT.
But Mikel, Mata, Rameries, etc, etc haven’t even made a clear statement to the public about what happened, so what exactly are we “hypocrites” for? We don’t even have a definitive account to “believe” in the first place! Talk about circular logic, nice try tho.
What shite is Aldridge talking? Seriously, what credentials do you need to become a “journalist” these days? Some of these fella’s are taking the piss. You get the impression Aldridge typed this up at the last minute, after chatting to disgruntled bin dippers over a pint. It’s so stupid and bias it’s laughable.
For what its worth, I don’t even know who John Aldridge is but he sounds a right pillock.
Doesn’t he know that even Dalgleish has come out recently and said the t-shirts were a fucking stupid idea. Even he, “King Kenny”, admits that LFC went about the whole issue in a foolish and amateurish way. Just goes to show those mugs really are still stuck in the 80′s with mullets and shell tracksuits.
I’d imagine LFC supporters would sooner turn on Dalgleish than admit they’ve been wrong all along about their blind support for a cunt like Suarez. Thats why they should be exposed for the out-dated twats they are. Nice one Scott.
You gotta laugh. While we’re getting ready for Braga, Aldridge is busy rewriting history and repealing English law! Imo LFC should be more concerned about spending 70m on Carroll, Henderson and whats his face but still ending up mid-table. They could’ve bought CHRISTIANO RONALDO with that kind of money haha. As you were.
Who?
Jim G – what do you mean you’re sick of people using the race card when things don’t go their way? Haha, I remember when Evra first spoke up and every cunt (to a man) said he should shut up and get on with the game. Now every cunt is Nelson Mandela, fighting the power.
The FA are not serious about fighting racism, they never have been. One author accused the FA of having a black quota for the England team and provided evidence – was he sued? FUCK NO.
The idea that players can simply allege racism and skip into the sunset is a lie. The Ferdinand’s got death threats and a bullet in the post, Evra was falsely labelled a trouble maker with a history of making allegations, and those young English lads who went to Serbia have had arrest warrants issued for them.
If it wasn’t for Evra making a stand they’d probably be extradited by now.
Black players have zero support when it comes to racism, thats an established fact. How many of them have admitted that its easier if they DON’T mention race? The idea that footballers play the race card doesn’t stand up to scrutiny, and it only appeals to cunts with racist tendencies anyway.
Redbilly says:
To be fair. Are we not bored of continually opening this topic ?.
^YEAH – till somebody gets killed and all hell breaks loose on YOUR high street.
what a dickhead.
anyway moving on…. i woke to see quotes of “hes unplayable”, “hes our messi”… wow whats he done i wondered,
turns out they drew 1-1 and stormed into 12th place………. “world class”
Couldn’t give 2 pence what their lot says. Waste of space, and breath.
We got our own worries.
1. Braga !
2. Pens !
Sir Alex thinking on penalties: “I think I’ll take it myself next time”
Off topic but how much of a muppet is lucas moura?. How can he make a decision based on “brazilians at a club”? Always knew there was something very strange about the deal, his agent has done a crook job by picking the destination he’ll pick up the biggest commission. At the end of the day, lucas should have taken a long time to think before sanctioning such move. Good fortune to him wriggling out of this self inflicting mess, i doubt fergie will go in for him for the 2nd time, he obviously thinks he’s worth it by wanting to smash a transfer record.
www1.skysports.com/football/news/11667/8226821
People reckon football isn’t the arena for debating race, but when you look at the photo of the stamford bridge scum doing monkey chants, theres a black (assumed) father and very young son sitting only a few seats behind, and definitely in earshot. Thats bang out of order, but people are still saying football isn’t the arena for discussing race, as if racism inside the ground is ok?
Football should stamp on racism before it spills from the grounds into the street – all it takes is one racist murder after a match and we’ll all be sorry. This story won’t go away, and it shouldn’t. My enjoyment of beating Chelsea and Arsenal isn’t dampened by newspaper stories. I can’t stand the X Factor so do you know what I do? I DON’T FUCKING WATCH IT. You cunts moaning about the coverage need to grow a fucking pair, or come out and be honest about how you really feel. Cowardly cunts either way.
StR I do feel that some of your article is your point of view rather than fact. Ill pick holes in it as it is my perogative to do so, but nice piece non the less.
You disagreed with Aldridge in regards that if a player accuses someone of something then cannot prove it they should be punished, or in your eyes they shouldnt. You mention that if a woman cannot prove a rape in your rebuffle. Thats why we have lawyers and the courts. It is the lawyer, with evidence that determines whether a woman has a case against a rapist. If she decides to go vigilante and mouth in public that a man has raped her when she fails to give evidence for the crime then the man has the right to press charges against her. Its unfair for the victim BUT thats if she was a victim and not a bullshiting wench.
What Suarez said WAS/IS prevelant in south america but rightly should not be said here as “negro” is racist here. The use of “negro” to a black person has highlighted a difference between the two argumentees based on race – which is racism.
I feel the handshake between Suarez and Evra was half a dozen of one and half a dozen from the other. Evra didnt seek to shake hands slightly lowering it so and Suarez made no effort to go looking. I do honestly believe in that incident Evra was trying to prolongue the feud and Suarez didnt give a fuck either way. So yeah Aldridge was wrong in my eyes of his assesment.
Aldridge has been proven right that now the claims will be made as we have seen with Mikel and Clattenburg, only time will tell on that one but I certainly feel that if Mikels claims cannot be supported especially as Clattenburgs voice is recorded during a match then he should be kicked out of British Football. I do honestly believe that a false claim is actually far worse than a proven claim as the effected individual will never really clear his name AND it opens up new wounds and devalues old crimes as well.
Very easy for those not on the receiving end to say; “thought this was all done and dusted?” The whole thing left a distinctly bitter taste in our mouths so why not bring it back up? Did LFC or Suarez show one bit of remorse for the events? No. They think they’re beyond reproach. Found guilty but never sorry. Worse still they act like they’re the victims. Like they’ve been the ones hurt in this. Bang the drum until things change.
Jim G are you seriously trying to suggest that scouse cunt and black cut have the same connotations? That the plight of the scouser is the same as the plight of the ethnic minorities in this country? What are you on? Once again acting the victim. Don’t mix up local rivalry/animosity or xenophobia with racism. They are very different things. Living in Merseyside it’s highly unlikely that you’ll grow up believing that you’re a thieving, bin dipping, rat eater. But you may easily have grown up feeling like a second class citizen if you weren’t white.
It’s very, very easy to say drop it when no harm is ever done to you. Just look at the league, and the number of black players making it into managerial and directorial positions at clubs. The number of Asian players at youth level who never make it any further. Did anyone really kick up a fuss at Evra or Anton Ferdinand getting booed after being the actual victims? Race is still a problem hence the number of ongoing campaigns.
Attitudes like Jim G’s and Aldrige’s are classic forms of ignorance. Remembering fondly the days when football was a man’s game and people just got on with it, without making waves. Like the game was better then. When disrespecting someone for their skin colour was just part and parcel. And they’d be happier if it stayed that way.
SHINJI THE NINJA
Racist comment be careful.
Jim G
“And how many Mancs are actually siding with Mikel, without hearing the evidence?
Pot.
Kettle.
BLACK.”
Black highlighted in this manor is racist, you are adding a tone to the word – shouting it as you were . to grab attention. might be intentional but racist non the less.
Jim
“Within that pile of bullcrap Aldridge makes a pretty good point. Why does the phrase “black c**t” causa a national controversy while “scouse c**t” is considered normal banter?”
I disagree with you here, but only a point of view. Being scouse is entirely a person choosing, like being affiliated to a particular religion or political bias. In my eyes these are not racist attacks rather a dig at someones beliefs. It is upto the individual to defend his beliefs should he feel the need to do so at a given time, if not he is free to walk away. Being black isnt a freedom of choice rather something out of your control, baring shit loads of cash and Michael Jacksons now unemployed plastic surgeon.
“Attitudes like Jim G’s and Aldrige’s are classic forms of ignorance. Remembering fondly the days when football was a man’s game and people just got on with it, without making waves. Like the game was better then. When disrespecting someone for their skin colour was just part and parcel. And they’d be happier if it stayed that way.”
Absolutely spot on.
Don’t get the furore around andre santos getting RVP shirt. Only downside to it is perhaps he should have done it beyond the glare of a judgemental public but you got to admit, there are some uptight bastards out there. Get a grip.
Samuel – So if one of our players ran up to Carlos Tevez at half-time in his first game against us (after he had scored the only goal and City were winning 1-0) and asked him for his shirt, you wouldn’t think he was a cock?
Goat Petticoat –
Without straying off point for too long think StR made the comparison because of the vilification women feel when they accuse someone and the accusation gets ignored. Statistics have shown that over 90% of rape accusations never lead to a conviction. But there is absolutely no way that 9 out of 10 women who say they’ve been raped are ‘bullshitting wenches’. It mainly comes down to one person’s word against another’s where proof is difficult to come by and so many do not lead o convictions. If a women feels as though they lack evidence, they therefore stay quiet. If they do speak out anyway, such women are then often branded liars and the victims become the villains. All this leads to a system of beliefs that its better not to speak up, which leads to the worse belief that men know its more likely that they’ll get away with it.
Similarly, racial abuse often comes down to one person’s word against another’s, and what society perceives to be acceptable at the time. If you live in the knowledge that you will likely never be able to prove any wrongdoing and will likely be branded a liar, then you will likely keep your mouth shut. Worse still, as it happened with Evra, if the victim becomes the villain every time he accuses someone of racism, and he knows he will likely get abuse hurled at him from 40,000 fans for 90mins which could lead to mistakes which cost you the game, you are more likely to keep stum.
Both things lead to the victim keeping quiet which in turn gives everyone the belief that the behaviour is acceptable or blameless. The point is that it is not.
Scott – Like i said, in the glare of the public, it was the wrong move from andre santos but generally, i have no issue with it, i don’t think it’s worst thing that’s ever occured on a football pitch. Naive/friendly from the brazilian i agree but he feels he’s catching up with an ex team mate and if anything, it’s a compliment to RVP and perhaps refreshing to see in a game which is an all action battle. Looking on from an arsenal point of view, they’re obviously distraught but picking andre santos as a scapegoat is baffling, the issue for me has been blown out of proportions. I’d imagine not a lot of people will agree with my view but i don’t see the big issue in it apart from the fact santos should’ve done in the tunnel or something. This matter is certainly not one for the brazilian to be hanged over.
United Til I Die – I think you’ll find John Aldridge scored against you at OT. Probably before your time, though. I was at Anfield and did not learn about ‘something happening’ until MOTD that evening, so to suggest everyone who was there was aware something happened is disingenuous.
Raf – I never bought up the ‘Scouse cnut’ analogy.
Samuel – Guess I’m ignorant then. I just thought that a foreigner using his native tongue could have been educated rather than villified and branded ‘racist’, but there you go. And I was just curious why Suarez was deemed twice as ‘racist’ as John Terry.
Gorse – I accused United fans of perceived hypocrisy purely from the point of view of who you chose to believe, before any evidence has come to light. You immediately sided with the white ref instead of the nasty Chelsea man. Incidentally, I don’t read RAWK. I have enough on my plate coming to terms with the fact that without Suarez we would be 18th in the League………
StR – Tevez is a whole different issue. Slagged off the club. Disrespected the gaffer. Agreed to that sign. And has kept being a noisy little cunt ever since.
Robin’s had nothing but respect for L’Arse and the Whinger since he left. Has repeatedly said he loves them and will always be a fan at heart.
Better question to you Scott is… Would you boo and slag off one of ours for swapping shirts with Christiano at half time?
Scott the Red
I would think he is a as you said A COCK
why ou why Evra did that , we would say if Evra who was Tevez’s good friend ran out to get his shirt.
I get it, it’s not that serious in the football world, as there are so many good friends and playing against each other, and we as “normal” people not footballers take this things too seriously.
But again, that shows little respect towards the fans and towards Arsenal. If one of our players would have done it, maybe I wouldn’t go mad, cause it’s the first game and RVP hasn’t said anything wrong about Arsenal.
It’s hard to compare Tevez and RVP in this situatin when you look how they behaved after being transfered. Hard to call it Scott, and this is for RVP Santos situation.
As for Tevez, if somebody went public and in this case I used Evra and we would known that he took his shirt. Some of the supporters would have gone mad. I do believe Tevez has swaped shirts, but not made it public like Santos.
btw. can somebody put a link about this shirt swaping “incident”
Raf’s curling tongs
Duely noted and good argument. Totally agree in everything you said. Herein lies the problem. We cannot charge people because of one persons word against another but do we really have to bug ourselves so evidence is always at hand or have a shoe cam to prove penetration occured (sorry for the image). Bolox if I know the answer, Im just glad I dont have to listen to victims in despair and sift through sickening evidence.
Jim G
I’d like to hear of you going to Saudi Arabia with your wife/girl friend in her usual beech attire, beer in hand talking openly but not loudly about your distrust for certain beliefs that a land has. You know we all go to France and say “bloody french why do they do it like this…….” You’ll find that going to another country its you that has to fit in, you are not a guest as you havent been personally invited and thus shouldnt expect to get away with things that a host would otherwise afford a stranger. Maybe you could tell me of the education the Saudis would afford you. The point is even if you were a little green man from Mars and never been to earth you would know not to use the term “negro” in England, as you wouldnt piss in an Englishmans pint nor pinch his birds arse. I dont pretend to know the cultures of other countries but I know swear words in nearly every tongue.
Also
Siding with Clattenburg was easy. He’s recorded, thats why the FA havent come out and had a go. If he had have said something the evidence would be there, he would have atleast been asked to resign. The time its taking is starting to point to the fact that a case is being built up against Mikel.
Jim G – should have directed the scouse cunt issue at Jim. But i noticed how you conveniently ignored the rest of my post. Still think it’s all done and dusted? Assuming that your failure to comment is acceptance of my point.
Jim – point applies.
The guy is only making himself look bad. When you read it, it just makes you cringe. It just shows that the guy backs racists. Everyone knows what Suerez said and if the city of Liverpool choose to turn a blind eye to it then again it just makes the city look bad. The guy has disgraced the club from so many levels.
@Jim G – From what I understand he only made TWO APPS in the 90′s so he’s definitely before my time, even though LFC were the biggest Club when I was growing up. More to the point if he did score at OT he’s hardly the only one to do that since the 80′s is he? Fucking hell, I hope he’s not as impressed with that “feat” as you are, otherwise he could be the type of burnt out ex-player sitting around in pubs boring everybody with tales about THAT one time they scored against United.
As for Evra and Suarez, MANY people in the ground and at home noticed something was up. When I said “everybody” I obviously wasn’t being literal, otherwise I’d be here all fucking day writing dissertations meant to be taken literally – and in case your a bit confused I don’t literally mean * “all fucking day” or “dissertations”. Use your imagination.
Anyway – out of everything I said thats all you got in response? Your man scored at OT thirty years ago and my every word on this blog isn’t literal? Nice talking with you fella!
@Shirt Swapping – I thought it was a daft thing to do ON THE PITCH at half time when your team is losing one nil. If we were playing anybody in a competitive match and one of our lads was asking to swap shirts with the fella who scored – it could be Ronaldo, Berbatov, Saha, whoever – I wouldn’t be happy with that. Wenger hugging him is one thing, but Santos just looked like a little boy. I can’t see anybody in our squad doing that under the same circumstances.
@Raf’s Curling Tongs – Top posts. Well said mate.
Goat – thankfully the racism in football at the top level is not too difficult to address because there’s about a thousand cameras pointed at everything going on. From the players, to the officials, to the dug outs, and now even the crowds. So hopefully perceived bad behaviour will slowly filter down through the leagues and also to youth level. If the kids start seeing that those at the top think its out of order, then they’ll hopefully follow suit.
Which is why I have such a big problem with Liverpool and Chelsea’s stances on this. The basis of their defence is that their players “didn’t mean anything by it”. So what? Does that then make it ok? Personally I think not.
But nevertheless I get that it’s massively difficult to call. Quick point of experience: I’ve been subject to various forms of racism in the past, (which is probably why I’m weighing in on this so heavily.) From the physical and getting my nose saved in, to the verbal and being screamed at in the street. And then the unintentional; where i get referred to as the little darky, or my mates nice paki friend, by people who know no different. After the physical i became almost desensitised to the verbal and it stopped bothering me. I got used to it. Ironically my best mate (who happens to be white) became even more sensitive to racism as a result.
Though it didn’t really bother me doesn’t change the fact that it can be deemed offensive. And saying its understandable means that many wrongly see it as acceptable. For this reason i think it should stay off the pitch and the cameras. Punishment is the only way to stamp it out so the FA’s picked the right course of action.
In the dressing room though it’s up to individuals to decide what they’re happy with. If Glen Johnson and Ashley Cole are happy to be called little negros or black bastards its up to them.
United Til I Die – ” in case your a bit confused I don’t literally mean * “all fucking day” or “dissertations”. Use your imagination.”
Simply brilliant.
Think Jim G’s getting increasingly semantic as his argument collapses around him.
Well let’s face it……Jogi Bear has more sense then John Aldridge. It was always like that and it’s not going to be changed now for sure !!!
I just wanted to comment to some people who respond to Scott reporting on these incidents by telling him to move on or so forth.
You don’t get it. The fact is, Suarez was punished by the FA after his version of events were found to lack credibility at all, and his excuse for using the term a complete fallacy. For that he got his 8 match ban, but Liverpool football club, fans, ex-players and journalists are still keeping up a lie about the incident. Depending on who it is, you will either hear a flat out denial that Suarez ever even called him Negro (or that he called him Negrito) to the lie that it was Evra who refused to shake his hand (despite Suarez’ apology and admission in BOTH cases).
Liverpool and their all too happy little echos in the media want to keep up the denial that Suarez did anything wrong, and to do that, you have to victimize Evra even further. Every time those phony journalists at the Guardian either write or tweet something to this effect, they are once again victimized Evra and defending the guilty party. Nobody at Liverpool has yet accepted that Suarez was guilty. From day one it was clear which way Liverpool was going to handle this situation, when the Liverpool Twitter feed put out a complete lie about Evra’s alleged history of making racism allegations. Instead of allowing the case to proceed and being QUIET like Alex Ferguson was, Dethroned Kenny and Liverpool FC went on a character assassination quest against a victim of racist abuse. THAT is the reason why Scott and other bloggers / journalists cannot allow the lies to spread. They have to pour water on the toxic disinformation pouring out over the incident.
Also remember what happened to United fans recently. United fans were accused of mocking Hillsborough in a chant about how Liverpool always plays the victim, which only became a regular chant after the Suarez incident. As Scott pointed out already, nothing was said about the chant when Everton fans sung it last week at the Merseyside derby.
I also have to respond to this stupid notion that because players get abuse from the crowd that means that when players do it it should be no bigger a deal. BULLSHIT!
Firstly, being mocked for being Irish or scouse is NOT racism. Discrimination maybe, but racism, NO.
Secondly, Luis Suarez is a professional footballer. Patrice Evra is a professional footballers, they are colleagues. If Evra walks down the street and is called Negro by some delinquent prick on the street, he might just decide to keep walking with his head held high, because it’s just some low life piece of shit that could never be what Evra is in a million years of trying. But when a colleague uses racist slurs against him at his workplace – on the field of play – that is an ENTIRELY different story. Imagine if a black man is repeatedly called Negro during an argument at their office job by a white guy (or half-white guy as in Suarez’ case), what do you think is going to happen? The White guy is going to get thrown out on his ass and its only right, he is not just insulting the black guy’s character, he is putting himself in a position of supremacy over him based solely on the color of his skin. THAT’S THE DIFFERENCE. So call Evra a prick, bastard, cunt, asshole, dickhead and so on all you like on the field of play… Evra also has a strong vocabulary of insults to trade back… but when you decide to use demeaning terms like Negro and focus only on Evra’s skin color, as opposed to your own, you are doing something completely different.
Also, this notion that he has a black grandfather so he can’t be racist… Jesus Christ..
Would you consider an ethnic group like Latinos to be White? No. Would you consider them to be black? No. They are Latino. But is there racism problems between black people and Latinos? YES! See this is the problem with people who have only grown up in a society where, until recent decades, everyone was either ice-cream-white or jet black – they literally end up with a “black and white” view of racism but its far more complicated than that.
But ye, I just wanted to say some off that because its annoying to see United fans suggesting that this incident is over when clearly Liverpool and their blogger army want to keep up the lie that Suarez is a little angel and Evra is a liar, in the face of ALL the evidence to the contrary.
Keep up the defense Scott! You’re doing a good job at calling out disgraceful morons!
Raf – I don’t have an argument, merely an opinion. But I guess that is “semantics”. And I didn’t respond to the rest of your post as I assumed the “thieving, bin-dipping rat eater” comment was just your way of pandering to your audience in case they got bored with what was, in essence, a good post. You couldn’t resist a ‘victims’ dig though, which is as ingrained in your psyche as my generation being distrustful of immigrants because it was banged into you by your peers.
Till I Die – Never said it was a ‘feat’. Merely that some of you apparently haven’t heard of him, so I pointed out that he had played for LFC at your place, just in case it jogged someone’s memory. He played around the same time as John Barnes. Heard of him?
For all your “simply brilliant” rhetoric, you still can’t help using the word CUNT as much as possible, though, which I guess is literary genius.
Goat – Likewise, if I went to Saudi and someone insulted my sister in English then I responded in English, I would be unhappy if the snide then took my reply in a Saudi context and claimed offence. I think it speaks volumes that you only thing it wrong to pinch a bird’s arse if her fella is from Engerlund. Like I say, if you have been brought up to believe Negro is acceptable, you wouldn’t know any better until it was pointed out to you. Which it now has been to Suarez.
It will be interesting if you sign Godin, because he and his teammates were fairly outspoken on the subject, from what I remember.
United till I die/ buh- Like all , we are entitled to our opinion and if course the opinion of the others on here. I do not underestimate the issue of racism but try not to I overestimate the effect people like Aldridge have . To expect the opposition to side with is us futile ?. Will they change or even try debate something they know is right ( in their opinion). I doubt ignoring his comments would result in a bloodbath on the streets, though I’m sure your referring to the broader picture which is fair enough.
Jim G –
Yes it is semantics. You gave an opinion contrary to another’s, you therefore made an argument. But you simply couldn’t help having little dig then. And you couldn’t help yourself now. No matter, I actually really enjoy the banter, but just be straight about it. Have a go but don’t pretend some moral high ground. You lose it when you become petty and ends up making you sound like a dick.
The “thieving, bin dipping, rat eater” comment had nothing to do with my audience, long posts bore some, not all. It was more to do with highlighting the abusive stereotypes attributed to fans of your club. Obviously you were unable to understand where I was coming from so let me re-articulate:
I don’t believe that if you are referred to as a “scouse cunt” or “scouse bastard” during a football match, you automatically assume that that individual is reducing you to someone; who is a career criminal, who trespasses on others property and raids their bins, and who eats rats. When I call you one, it’s banter. I don’t believe that any of us mean it literally.
However by using someone’s skin colour to abuse them; very literal connotations of being a second class citizen come into effect. They are indicating that there is little more to them than their colour, and that they are inferior because of it. Dela and UTID have highlighted this, (and massive respect to them for their posts,) so there’s no point in me regurgitating.
And once again… yes, before you start another semantic moratorium, I used the “C word” again. Shame on me… Maybe if I rearranged the letters as you did earlier and said “cnut” then people would be more comfortable.
Finally, if Suarez was brought up to believe that the words “negro” and “negrito” are acceptable, and it’s a term he commonly uses even after living in this country for over 2 years then I think those at LFC are as much to blame for not pointing this out to him. What’s infinitely more likely is that it was never pointed out because he never uses it and only did then because he was abusing Evra.
Shocking from Santos to ask for Rvp’s shirt at half-time. I’d be disgusted if that was a United player.
It sends out the completely wrong signals to your opponent, your rival and your fans.
Here’s what keane had to say:
“I don’t remember ever asking to swap a shirt at club level,” he said.
“Maybe it’s understandable if a young player does it at the end of a game, but itís ridiculous when you get a senior player asking you during a game.
“That happens. I recall games where that’s happened to me and I’ve been thinking `Are you even focussed on the game at all?’
“There have been people throughout my career who have been more focussed on getting someone’s jersey.
“You see it all the time. You hear players now who say, ‘I’ve got 50 jerseys in my garage.’
“I immediately think ‘Yeah, brilliant. But how many medals have you got?
I really do have to laugh at the idiots who think the use of the adjective “black” in and of itself is racist.
I hope he is run over by a black car – Is that racist ?
If not, then how is I hope he chokes on a black dick “racist”
Do black men not have dicks ? Or is a black dick itself offensive ? If so to who ?
Why is it racist to say John Adridge can choke on a black dick ?
There are some pathetic individuals who try to find racism where there isnt any.
How do you know I am not black and its my dick I want to choke him with ? – you muppet Jim G
Goat Peticoat says:
SHINJI THE NINJA
Racist comment be careful.
You are a Dickhead –
Dickhead Comment be careful.
Please explain how ? Or just fuck off and stop shit-stirring
Shinji – I think it was the fact that you assumed that the dick would be fat that was the racist bit. (And I actually said borderline). It’s certainly stereotyping, to assume that just because the person is black, then they have a big todger. I played football with a black guy who had a lasso between his legs. Likewise I have seen one hung like a hamster.
Talking of pathetic individuals who try and find racism where there isn’t any, that is what the Evra-Suarez spat was about, surely?
Raf – Suarez had been here 10 months, and there is no evidence he still uses the term negro. Maybe he learned his lesson? My point was that it was a very harsh lesson to learn.
Fuck off Aldridge you “one season” legend. Fucking same hairdo and tache since 87. Fucking wanker, he hates United.
Bobby Charlton’s Combover – Spot on. I would be seething if I were an Arsenal fan after the shirt swap. Smalltime and amateurish.
Shinji –
Don’t understand your comment or your mentality. Why use the word “black” at all? Why not just say choke on a dick? Or fat dick? Don’t know why you needed to add colour.
“I hope he is run over by a black car – Is that racist ?” No it’s not.
But is saying “I hope he is run over by a black man driving a car” racist? Maybe.
‘A black car’ is just describing the object’s colour. ‘A black dick’, is not just describing the colour of the dick, but the colour of the owner too. What you said is like a shortened version of; ‘I hope he chokes on a black man’s dick’. Surely you can understand why this may be considered racist?
King Eric – “Fuck off Aldridge you “one season” legend. Fucking same hairdo and tache since 87. Fucking wanker, he hates United.”
Nicely put.
Fucking no mark only made it as a pundit because of the Scouse bumming media in the 90′s.
Raf. – Aldo only made it as a pundit on Merseyside, I don’t recall him ever being in the ‘nationals’. He played for LFC so writes a column in the Echo, which is fair enough.
The ‘Scouse bumming media of the 90′s’ made me chuckle, because the game I mentioned that Aldo scored at OT I wanted to mention that was the game Bryan Robson got ITV’s Man of the Match. If this is lost on you, then you will never understand why we used to get pissed off about the perceived United-bumming media.
Jim G
Can you answer me just one question. Just a simple yes or no ok.
Did Suarez racially abuse EVRA?
Jim G – Lot of players played at OT. Lot MoM awards for Robbo. I have no idea, nor do I give a fuck who John Aldridge is. But the fact that you remember one match where I’m assuming a United player didn’t deserve something says a lot. And you wonder why we think you ‘try’ to hate us.
All the rest of this bullshit is just noise though, and what happens when someone’s arguments (opinions) collapse. They begin to discuss every other thing they can think of instead of the point in question.
Scott made a good point criticising Aldridge. Liverpool, Dalgliesh, and the rest were wrong to back Suarez in this. Many anti-racism groups have come out against it. Yet there’s been no genuine signs of remorse on the part of LFC or Suarez for the harm done to Evra. You think the situation is “done and dusted”. It isn’t . No matter how you lot try and spin it, Evra is the one done over in what happened. You are not the victims. Finally and most importantly because of the stance of your club, your fans, and pundits like Aldridge, you’ve made it more difficult for other players to speak out.
Redharry4life – Wish I’d just said that.
Raf’s curling Tongs.
Mate they have no answer to that question.
If they are coming over all well read, educated and considered they then show themeselves up by backing Sorearse and trying to say it is just a misunderstanding, a misinterruption of language/culture. When all the “experts” agreed that the way Sorearse used the word was racial, was intended to get Evra to react, to get Evra to do something stupid.
The “experts” all agreed it is NOT racial if used between friends. which Evra and Sorearse certainly are not, especially as it was used to a oppostion player in the most intense derby in English football.
Should the spainish speaking world not consider not using the “N” word?
Probably get Jim G on now saying how dare I preach to a whole culture but the “N” woprd was commonly used in the English speaking world until we grew up
Raf’s curling Tongs
As for the United loving media I was at that match and Robson was by far the best player on the park and rightly given MOM.
I watched a Granada match one week where Ian St John(ex Klansman) was the pudilt, game was Klanspool V Shitty. That day Peter Barnes was unplayable, a stunning performance all day long yet guess who got the MOM award? yes Ray Clemence klanspool’s keeper.
Jim G lays his finger on the reason why the scum hate united so much. Even in their glory days when they were winning everything they were still at most still 2nd best to United. Even when we got relegated in the 70s they were always in our shadow
Raf – I remember most matches I’ve been to. My point was that Bryan Robson used to get the MOTM every week on ITV regardless of performance. I am just assuming he got it that day…..
My opinion hasn’t collapsed, otherwise I wouldn’t be still spouting the same ‘bullshit’ a year later now would I?
RedHarry – No. He doesn’t believe that what he said was racist. Nor do I. He called him black, which he is. If he had added Fnckin and cnut to it, then that is a racist smear.
And the N word was commonly used. And I await with baited breath for the name of Guy Gibson’s dog to get a name-change the next time the DamBusters is on telly. But I imagine the Spanish speaking world will continue to use that word, because it is not regarded as offensive.
I don’t believe it was misunderstanding or misinterpretation. Evra started a row in Spanish, Suarez responded (and knew and admitted to what he had said) and then Evra chose to receive the response in it’s English translation rather than it’s literal Spanish. Like I said earlier, I sincerely hope you guys sign Godin, just to see his ‘take’ on what went on.
Redharry – I wouldn’t say we were in your shadow, but it was always a bit galling to see the headlines on the back pages of the redtops usually concentrating on the latest injury to Captain Marvel, and then to find 4 pages in that Liverpool had got to another European Cup Final……
JIm G.
Its literal Spainish translation used in that context IS RACIST NO misunderstanding No misinterpretation.
Thanks Jim G so at last a Liverpool fan that admits that Suarez used racist language towards Evra and was guilty as charged.
I said that Suarez admitted to what he said. I also said that there was no misunderstanding. By that I mean Evra knew what Suarez had said and it’s meaning in Spanish, but displayed a predilection to be outraged by taking the English meaning.
Again I say, ask Godin…….
“He called him black, which he is.”
You cannot understand why what he said is reductive? He reduced him to the colour of his skin.
Why say the ‘N’ word in your post if you’re so comfortable with it? Is it terminology you yourself use regularly?
Jim G
Could you please explain your comment?
“By that I mean Evra knew what Suarez had said and it’s meaning in Spanish, but displayed a predilection to be outraged by taking the English meaning.”
Are you trying to say that Suarez’s use of the “N” word was not racist?
Redharry – That’s exactly what he’s saying. Worse, he’s saying that Evra knew that Suarez wasn’t being racist, and then falsely accused him, which created the whole shit storm.
Raf – mate must admit I LMAO at the Klansmen when they come on and try to justify what Sorearse said. He is the only half decent player they have and they know that they would be in a even worse postion if he left so they have to back him.Imagine them without Sorearse, Andy Carrol up front, Borini anyone?
Agreed with you in that I did feel that with his last comments about Evra being Black, Jim G was almost saying it was ok to call him a N****
Was Jim G showing his true colours?
It’s so backward it’s almost funny…
The Dam Busters was made in 1955 and depicted an event in 1943. To be accurate they might have to use terms that people aren’t comfortable with now, but were acceptable then. I don’t have a problem with that if it’s for accuracy’s sake. But the fact that Jim G uses it as a reference point is worrying.
The original was made well before laws against racial discrimination in public existed in this country. Til then it was ok to racially abuse people in public. Calling the dog ‘Nigger’ in the film was fine, in just the same way that white people thought it was fine to call a black person ‘a nigger’ in public.
The point is: IT IS NOT FINE NOW.
RedHarry – What I’m trying to say is that they had an altercation in Spanish, and in that language the word Negro, and it’s connotations ARE acceptable, whether you or I like it or not. I just find it odd that Evra decided to translate the term back into English, where that word and other similar ones have become taboo.
If the conversation, altercation or whatever you want to call it was in English, and Suarez had come out with the ‘Ni@@er’ word, then No that is obviously not acceptable.
Raf – I never said that Evra falsely accused him. What I hinted at was that Evra chose to be outraged by translating the word, instead of taking it in the context of the Spanish that he had chosen to start the altercation in. I believe that Evra does know that the term used by Suarez is widespread in the Spanish speaking world, and the implications of that word.
Surely some of you agree that we now continually tread on egg shells? I used to use the term ‘coloured’ but have been told that they are not coloured, but black. So then I say that Evra is black, and I’m accused of calling him a Negro (Spanish, not English pronunciation).
Maybe I am showing my true colours after all???
ADIOS (Spanish for fuck you all very much)
Jim G
Sorry even by you saying “they had an altercation in Spanish” meaning it was “not friendly banter” means that Suarez’s use of the “N” word was therefore meant to be Insulting, belittling, degrading and by definition racist. And Suarez knew exactly what he was saying and how it was meant as he was speaking in his native tongue and knows all the “connotations” of using the word negro.
In Spainish the word Negro, and it’s connotations ARE NOT acceptable in all situations.
So it does not matter if Suarez used Spainish or English in the Context he used it the use of Negro WAS and IS Racist.
And I beg to suggest that YOU do not know the implications of that word in the Spanish speaking world with regards to the context it was used in.
Are we going to go over this subject for ever? Cant we get back to football.
Nicely put Redharry. This is exactly what the panel agreed.
Jim G @ 01:00
“Surely some of you agree that we now continually tread on egg shells?”
By ‘we’, you mean white people? And by ‘continually tread on egg shells’ you mean taking care not to offend with racist language? I’m so sorry we trouble you so much. Life was so much easier in the past when you could call us whatever the fuck you wanted.
“I used to use the term ‘coloured’ but have been told that they are not coloured, but black.”
By using the word ‘coloured’ you basically reduce everyone who is not white into 1 single ethnic group. All ‘coloured’ people are not exactly the same. By using words like ‘they’, and before that ‘we’, you automatically set up an ‘us, and not them’ mentality.
You clearly don’t understand cultural diversity because you don’t understand how placing all ethnic groups under 1 banner would offend people. And you are clearly frustrated by the need to change how you deal with different ethnicities because you feel like you have to walk on egg shells.
So you push for the classic; “I didn’t mean anything by it” argument, the; ‘It’s ok where I come from and where I grew up” argument, and the; “They used to be fine with it, so why have a problem now?”
Yes Jim G, with one simple comment you show you “true colours”. You’re racist. The worry is, like Aldridge and Suarez, you’re probably not even aware of it.
But feel free to ignore all the comments on here, go back to Klanfield, and keep saying to yourself:
“I can’t be racist. I’ve got friends who are black.”
samuel – I don’t think anyone is saying it’s the worst thing that’s ever occurred on the football pitch, are they? I’d be furious if one of our players did that though. Shows a complete lack of respect for the fans.
Raf’s curling tongs – Cristiano Ronaldo hasn’t left United for a better team in England, he left United for a team he’d always dreamed of playing for in a different country. RvP was an Arsenal fan when he was a kid and spent almost 10 years playing for them.
Raf – Congratulations. I bet you feel a lot better now you’ve casually branded someone else a ‘racist’, don’t you?
I would suggest that I am a lot more tolerant of black people than you appear to be of white people, as your latest angst-ridden tirade appears to be borne out of a desperation to feel oppressed.
I haven’t ignored any of the comments, I just don’t necessarily agree with them.
I imagine you will be mortified, but I actually have NO black friends. That is not borne out of racism, merely a white middle-class upbringing in the 70′s, and the cul-de-sac my house is in having no black residents. I am pleasant to a black lady when I bump into her in the tea point at work, but she is no more than a colleague at best. And the same upbringing taught me moral values – to be polite, considerate and courteous to everyone, to never steal, to always tell the truth, to try and help someone if they look like they are in trouble. So the only way I “deal” with different ethnicities is to be pleasant towards them.
I would venture that you thought the riots of last summer were great? All those disenfranchised people stealing from their neighbours and setting fire to their own communities – what a wheeze.
Tar me with whatever brush you want Raf, I honestly couldn’t give a flying one. And I would suggest that if I met you in the street I would probably be mistrustful of you, if not openly hostile. But that is nothing to do with the fact that you are a black man, and everything to do with the fact that I imagine you would be sporting that horrific tea-towel that currently masquerades as your Home shirt.
Scott: Point taken. Nevertheless on a personal level my resentment towards Tevez is less to do with the money, or possible lies about the contract negotiations, and more to do with the way he behaved since. Acting as though he’s moved for ‘the right reasons’ and the disrespect he’s shown. RvP’s transfer doesn’t seem that way to me, but I’m not an Arsenal fan.
Jim G @ 14:28
“Congratulations. I bet you feel a lot better now you’ve casually branded someone else a ‘racist’, don’t you?”
Not casually. I wouldn’t even have engaged the debate if I felt that way initially. I would have just said it, but I didn’t. This wasn’t a gut reaction as it happened after a lengthy discussion. I said it because of the comment you made, and gave you the reasoning for it. Reread it. Stop ignoring it all but one aspect of it. Take it point by point. Basically give my views the same respect I gave yours.
“I would suggest that I am a lot more tolerant of black people than you appear to be of white people, as your latest angst-ridden tirade appears to be borne out of a desperation to feel oppressed.”
I don’t feel oppressed. I’m lucky enough to live in a country predominantly filled with diverse and tolerant people. However that doesn’t mean that there aren’t those who undermine it whether consciously or unconsciously. There are still inequalities and views like yours lead to them.
Nevertheless if my post came across like a tirade I didn’t intend it that way, but as you so eloquently put it; “you couldn’t give a flying one” either way. Let me be clear though. What you said can easily be construed as racist regardless of your intent. I explained to you how, taking what you said point by point.
“I haven’t ignored any of the comments, I just don’t necessarily agree with them.”
You focussed on one aspect of my post, me calling you a racist, and launched into a tirade of your own. You ignored everything else.
“I imagine you will be mortified, but I actually have NO black friends. ”
Not mortified. Not even surprised. It just makes sense now how; you’d think the term ‘coloured’ shouldn’t upset people, how you’d have no problem with Aldridge’s comments, or the way your club has behaved since. Because it doesn’t affect you.
“the same upbringing taught me moral values – to be polite, considerate and courteous to everyone…”
If you’ve been taught to be so considerate of everyone how do you justify blanketing many groups of people under one banner? How come you have such a strong sense of us and them? How come you find it difficult to address people they want to be addressed?
Not even going to dignify your comment on the riots, except to say I was there. It was the exact opposite of enjoyable, for many it was terrifying. Stick to making armchair commentary on it from the comfort of your cul-de-sac.
I think that your jumping to the conclusion that I need to be oppressed speaks volumes. I have a couple of questions for you. Do you think that many people cry race opportunistically? Do you think this is what Evra did? I’m genuinely interested in your response.
Raf – Sorry, only just read your latest comments.
The only sense of “us and them” I feel concerns my football team, and the tribalism that entails.
. If it interests you, I am a Celtic fan and a protestant. My reasoning for this is that Glasgow Rangers based their whole signing policy on religion, which in my view is discriminatory.
I don’t find it difficult with addressing people the way they want to be addressed, I normally tend to use their name.
My point, though I am obviously a lot less eloquent than you, was that I didn’t use the usual insulting words such as w*g, ni@@er, etc, but “coloured”. I made no attempt to justify ‘blanketing’ groups, I merely pointed out a term I used that did not (supposedly) carry the same overtly derogatory implications that could be intended to incite.
Whatever I say, you will construe some sort of racist intent, but my understanding of the word RACIST is : the belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others or discrimination or prejudice based on race. I don’t believe I am superior to you because of skin colour, but because of football allegiance
With regard to your last questions, I have personal experience of a number of people at work who have put in vexatious complaints after being overlooked for promotions, basing their complaint purely on colour instead of ability. On one occasion I was named in a grievance procedure, though the complainant failed to take into account her absence record and the fact she was lazy as fnck. So, yes, I do think that some people cry race opportunistically. Not all, but some. And quite a few in my Department have been moved into cushy jobs just to stop their repeated shit-stirring.
With regard to Evra, only he knows.
What are your views on the Society of Black Lawyers demanding that referee Mark Clattenburg be suspended while claims he made racial comments to Chelsea midfielder John Obi Mikel are investigated? I only entered this debate because I found it slightly hypocritical how everyone jumped to Clattenberg’s defence (including your Manager) without hearing any evidence.
Jim G @ 12:22
When I called you a racist it was for a lot of reasons, not the least because you seem incapable of, or unwilling to understand anything not seen through your own white middle class male perspective. I have broken all of these down for you. It was NOT A KNEE JERK REACTION. But after your last post I don’t think there’s any way I can help you to understand that, you are clearly determined to be obtuse about it:
Nevertheless, and put this as a stand alone comment, if you do live your life as you say, (which I have to take your word for,) then I take back calling you a racist.
Two majors things you should consider though is that your definition of racism misses the idea of inferiority, (not just superiority), and ‘unconscious bias’, which is what is key to the point I’m trying to make. (Look it up if you’re interested.) The FA’s case with Suarez, takes into account both of these ideas, which is why he was found guilty. It doesn’t matter what his cultural perspective and history is, he has to behave in accordance with ours. Similarly Jim G; regardless of your upbringing, how you view society, where you live, or what you do for a living, if you say something that people may deem offensive on a public forum, be prepared to be called up for it.
I think your experiences of racism have made you biased against the idea of it. When people at your work were promoted based on race it was unfair on the individual, but for society as a whole positive discrimination is necessary. If you wish to know why I suggest you look it up. It won’t change the situations you dealt with, but may go some way to helping you understand why they happened in the first place.
Finally the idea that you supporting Celtic makes you superior is so laughable it’s barely worth mentioning. You get to play CL football every season by beating a bunch of teams that wouldn’t make it past the Championship.
On the Society of Black Lawyers demands for Clattenburg to be suspended. That is just madness and leads to a very dangerous slippery slope. He is innocent until proven guilty.
On Sir Alex’s comments; bear in mind every single footballer/manager/pundit was asked their opinion, after EVERY race issue that’s come up recently, including wearing or not wearing t-shirts. I’d hazard a guess that even Relegation Battle Rodgers was asked about Clattenburg, but no-one was interested enough to put it in print. Sir Alex offered his opinion, which he’s entitled to do as is everyone else. Chelski are the ones who pushed this into the public sphere, right now they’re the only ones who should be held responsible for where we are. None of the Rents seem willing to point the finger, so it’s unlikely it would have been carried any further if it weren’t for them talking to the media.
They’ve created a fucking impossible situation. If Clattenburg is found guilty, he would have to be sacked. If he’s only suspended, then how can he be trusted to make a call at the Bridge ever again? How can a black player trust him to make a rational call? How can he penalise a black player without the media assuming racial bias? But if he is sacked and players only get a 4-8 match ban how is that fair? Alternatively; if he’s found innocent, how can he be trusted to referee a Chelsea game after they tarnished his name? If United are points short of Chelsea how can he be trusted to ref a United game?
Going back to the original blog post. One thing I didn’t mention is that I spend a great deal of time in Merseyside and Cheshire as I have family there. For about 3 months after Suarez’s comments came out the trendy racial slur was ‘negrito’. The justification; “people in South America say it when they’re being friendly”.
Questions for you: Do you believe we live in a racially equal society, or at the very least is your local community racially equal? Have you ever witnessed racism first hand? If Suarez was found completely innocent, would race relations improve or worsen?
Raf – the ‘football superiority’ dig was tongue in cheek, hence the wink. Mind you, you’re only as good as your last game and they just beat Messi and his chums. And they aren’t bad.
Funny how you are judging me in different way now I said I am a Celtic fan. Would it change your opinion if I said I am a Celtic shareholder and Liverpool season ticket holder? Probably.
I think ours is a very tolerant and racially equal society. I don’t see many blacks barred from sports clubs, pubs, applying for jobs purely because of their colour. And I do see blacks in high profile jobs – lawyers, bankers, surgeons, so it isn’t exactly a backward society (in my white middle class eyes). The area I was brought up in is now predominantly Asian, as they seem to have all the money….!!
Have I ever witnessed racism first hand? That’s a toughie, because a gang of Asian lads tried to give me as kicking when I took a shortcut through the park. When I reported it, it went down as a ‘mugging’. But If me and my mates had cornered an Asian guy then you can bet that the Plod would have listed it as a racially aggravated crime. Agree?
Likewise, in my line of work I have spoken to Sikhs who absolutely hate Muslims. Because the Muslims think it is only a sin to steal from other Muslims. If they pop down and shoplift from the Sikh corner-shop, then that’s fine. That isn’t regarded as stealing. Go figure. I have also had first hand experience of wandering into shops that are covered in posters inciting racial hatred on the West.
(As an aside, Muslims are some of THE main exponents of alcohol smuggling in the UK, which is a bit rich considering they are forbidden to drink).
Going back to the Suarez issue. I don’t think they could have found him completely innocent, because he admitted to what had been said, but I do believe that the FA was looking for a sacrificial lamb to demonstrate to Blatter that racism should be taken seriously. But the reason he admitted to it was because the term is widely acceptable where he comes from. And I know you will now argue that “He’s in our country, he should live by our laws”, but if that is the case why would Evra start insulting him in Spanish? Why can Evra get away scot free with calling Suarez a “dirty South American”, and saying he would like to penetrate his sister? From my point of view, Suarez showed restraint by only saying “Why, black?”. Even the pat on the head, something that happens 2 or 3 times a match when the ref calls players over to calm them down, has been twisted from one of (what I recognised as) reconciliation to a heinous assault on a black man.
You asked me earlier if I think Evra cried ‘race’ opportunistically? Well, if this was CSI then there was certainly motive, as Suarez had single-handedly torn United’s defence to pieces 7 months earlier, making Evra look a chump in the process. And even Giggs acknowledged that Evra had his angry head on that day, apparently even arguing the pre-match coin toss.
Even the infamous ‘non- handshake’ where Evra looked straight into the Sky camera appeared just that little bit too convenient. Staged almost. A natural reaction would have been to turn to the ref, or turn to Suarez and hurl abuse.
I believe that Suarez said something that he did not know was unacceptable in this country. I believe that Evra has a good grasp of Spanish, knows the connotations of the term in South America but chose to use the English translation. Which is snidey. I also believe that Hernandez would have been familiar with this term, but was probably told to butt out.
The way Suarez has been made public enemy No1, by a morally outraged media and football fans who probably don’t give a shit is hypocritical and just plain wrong – especially when compared to the easy ride Terry got for saying something a lot worse.
Suarez could not have been found completely innocent, because he admitted the word, but a shorter ban allied with some education would have made more sense. Then again, he was only found ‘probably guilty’……..
Ps. Do you not think that a Society for Black Lawyers, a Black Police Federation and Plug’s idea for a breakaway Black Players Union is marginalising people? Which is surely what they are fighting against?
Sorry for rambling.
Jim G – It doesn’t surprise me in the slightest that as a Liverpool fan you’d think you’re only as good as you last game. This is probably why you focus so strongly on Cup games. You being a Liverpool and Celtic fan doesn’t make any difference to the way I perceive you as most Liverpool fans have probably got themselves a second team by now.
No I don’t agree that the police would assume racial motivation for a crime just because someone white or a group of white people beat up an Asian. When it happened to you did you report it as racially motivated? Did you report the shops that had posters inciting racial hatred on the West? Because by putting it in print it may be a crime, worse if they are distributing it.
I understand that there are some believers of Islam that argue that theft can only be against Shari-ah Law if it is Muslim on Muslim crime, but these are a tiny minority. Just for perspective’s sake though, you should know that there are literal readings of the Bible that argue that if the ‘leaders’ (rulers) laws of the land are not based on the Bible, then a good Christian need not abide by those laws. Remember that Islam as a religion has Jewish and Christian roots.
As far as Suarez is concerned, I don’t think there’s any way to make you understand. You think he was the victim. Some kind of patsy for the FA. redHarry, United4Life, and Samuel (I think,) tried to make it completely clear; what you said could be considered true, if Evra and Suarez were friends. They are not. You ignore another fundamental point that the term negro, even in South America, can be abusive. Abuse based on race.
I do find it surprising that in your lifetime all your experiences of racism were caused by ethnic minorities, either against one another, or against white people. I think this is unlikely, but the fact that these are the only events that you remember go a long way to explaining your perspective.
Rafs curling tongs is spot on.
Jimmy lad dont tarnish every muslim or a whole religion by the morons youve come across.
Im a muslim, die hard red for 40 years too. Nothing in the religion says a muslim cannot thief from a muslim, otherwise its ok. The pricks who told you that, need there balls chopping. And they aint muslims. Which person who calls or associates themselves to a faith can say its 1 rule for him and another for the rest. Theft is theft simple as.
The pakis that bootleg, again yes they aint muslims. It is forbidden. Again morons using the term muslim or islam so they feel they bring to some kind of brotherhood.
As for the deadbeats that tried to beat you. Well Forget religion or skin colour. Scum comes in all colours. Pakis or otherwise
People mask themselves into certain faiths and groups for there own convenience.
Fact is theres good and theres bad. Like Raf said, Dont tarnish a whole ideology by the deadbeats youve come across, what uve heard or what uve been told.
Cos your rant earlier bordered on the racist nature.
I posted here since day 1 of Scotts site and personally dont like talking about religious issues. But had to clarify some points youve made
Jim G – Concerning break away unions. They do not marginalise people. The point of a union is to be representative of it’s members. If those members do not feel represented then they must select another union, or form a new one.
You state that we live in a racially equal society because black people are not banned from specific places which again indicates a near 60′s mentality. Because they can hold high profile jobs. This I can agree with to some extent because I teach for a living. But is it representative of the population? Not at all. Women, let alone ethnic minorities, are still massively under-represented with the top earners of the country, whereas in a completely level playing field they should make up around 40%. Earlier I mentioned the lack of black footballers who make it into managerial and directorial positions later in their careers. This is not because they are incapable. It it because the playing field is not yet equal. There is still a great deal of work to be done.
Again for some perspective to highlight my point: The Guardian recently had an article which showed that a young black male is statistically 28 times more likely to be stopped and searched (section 60), than his white counterpart. Is it because he is 28 times more likely to commit a crime? No. Is this equality? No.
suhayl – You said that my ‘rant’ bordered on the racist nature, but you’ve used the word “Paki” twice….
Sorry , but is this term now acceptable again, or can you use it without sanction because you are Asian? This smacks of double-standards to me…….
For the record, a Sikh (ex-Northumberland Police) told me about the thieving scenario. All I have done is relay the story.
Raf – I have never once said Suarez is a victim. I merely pointed out why I think the FA were a little too eager to punish him. The point I tried to emphasise is that Evra was abusive based on race (“fncking South American”) he then abused Suarez’s sister (in Spanish, of all the languages to choose), and then got away scott-free for his part in the whole sorry episode. Which is plain wrong. They were the actions of a playground bully, and he has come out of this looking like a snide. Sure, punish Suarez. But ignore Evra’s part in it? Now that is bollocks.
And I just KNEW you were going to mention football managers, purely because I nearly added that caveat to my previous post!!!! I wanted to mention John Barnes, but you would have probably slagged him off so I kept schtum. Sorry, but I have no rational explanation to that one. If blacks are applying for posts and being overlooked, then that is wrong. Certainly when you see people like Phil Brown popping up like the proverbial bad penny. But it would be interesting to see how many black players actually apply for managerial roles before jumping to conclusions.
Your comment about employing women I agree with, but I hope you don’t just mean black women, as this applies to all females. Which reminded me of more discrimination I came across in my job, whereby an Asian businessman swore like a trooper to my female colleague, and basically treated her like shit, but was nice as pie with me. It ‘appeared’ that this individual did not regard a female as worthy of his time (I dare to say almost a 2nd Class citizen), so I told him to apologise to her, which made the ignorant prick feel about 2 feet tall (hopefully) and said he should direct all his answers to her in future. Which made him squirm.
With regard to the stop and search, I have heard this statistic. Are you trying to say that the Police force are institutionally racist???!! Lol. You mean as well as doctoring evidence, cover-ups and generally treating football fans like shit? Well I never…….
To add some balance to this, and I’m trying not to give too much away about my line of work, in my 5 years doing my current job only a handful of offenders in all that time have been white. No blacks. The vast majority are Asians. Sorry, but that is the truth.
Finally…!! The term negro in South America CAN be abusive. I guess that’s why he was found ‘probably guilty’? I personally don’t think Suarez meant it this way. You do, and I respect your point of view.
Btw. You’ve worn me out this week.
jim…fair point and i knew you d pick that up lol.
what i was trying to say was, there is bad in every community, bad eggs, good eggs. The term P word was used by myself to highlight that i dont mask and wont deny that there are some real asian twats outthere. Some detest the hell out off me. Infact like the points uve highlighted, make my blood boil. Hence i used the term to highlight that i am not one of those asians that masks its people and brushes it under the carpet.
Like i said, there is good and bad. Clealry you ve come across and had many bad experiences with asians. Cos you have laid into our race. And yes a lot is true. But hope you can see, by what i am trying to say, that there are good ala me. And in any race, white, black, asian, yellow or green you will get this. Good and Bad.
Just hope you encounter some decent asians some time soon. Cos stereotyping a whole race….well each to their own i guess.
Rather talk about football
Suhayl – My intention was not to lay into your race, my intention was to illustrate to Raf that racism and discrimination is not just confined to white V black, and (in my own personal experiences) the most bigoted displays have involved non-whites.
I just don’t get how some people can use the ‘P’ term, yet I would get absolutely hounded if I chose to use it. I also don’t get how a perfectly innocent 70′s shortened version of a longer word – Pakistani- is now suddenly taboo. Who the fuck decided that, eh? And why were they so offended? Cos when I was a kid it was used as a term without malice, a bit like ‘Brit’ being a shortened term of a longer word…..
Out of the 2 people I trust most at work, one is Asian, I have known him 17 years, and I regard him as a mate (though I obviously wouldn’t let him know !!!!) So sorry if I came across as being on some crusade.
The only crusade I am on involves the original blog re: Suarez.
), have no clue about diversity and have only taken the moral high ground because of one reason and one reason only.
And the hypocrisy of most of the people who so glibly label him a racist. Let’s be honest here, most of the people condemning him don’t give a shit about racism or race relations (why would you in your pleasant Home Counties suburbs…?
And that is it was because a Manchester United player complained about a Liverpool player. And they immediately sided with Evra. They don’t really give a toss about positive discrimination, but their tribal allegiance suddenly made them all experts in a particular Spanish dialect used in areas of Uruguay.
And that is a bit sad.
Jim G – let me state it unambiguously, yes, i am saying that the police in this country is institutionally racist, though once again this is not an argument about intent. The statistic I gave you came from an article in the Guardian, which was left undisputed by any police force in the country; as the figures were a matter of public record. Bear in mind that section 60 has nothing to do with reported crimes, its purely based on the police officer’s assumption on who they think intends to commit a crime. What really concerns me is how you think of this as a laughing matter. The evidence I have given for my argument and my views is on a national not personal level, but once again you choose to ignore it and laugh it off. The reason i gave you the stat is simple; I believe as many social theorists do, that a young black male is more than 20 times as likely to be stopped and searched because of the engendered view in society that, by being young, black, and male; he is more likely to commit a crime.
Did you laugh it off because you think the stat is unbiased? That the police are acting purely on their experiences of criminal behaviour? Or do you think it is justified that the police think that young black males are 28 times as likely as their white counterparts to commit crimes? If so, where’s the evidence?
Your point to Suhayl – There is absolutely nothing innocent about the word ‘Paki’. Regardless of how it started out, as soon as a white person used it in reference to someone who was not of Pakistani origin it became racist. Throughout the 70′s and 80′s it was used not to describe where someone was from, intead it was a blanket term for anyone with brown skin, be they Indian, Bangladeshi, Afhghani, and later Persian or Middle Eastern. This later became synonymous with other things which I don’t see the point in listing, because they are all quite petty and horrible. You asked “who the fuck decided that ['paki' is a racist word]?” It’s quite simple; racist white people. But if what you say is true, and you live in a widely subcontinental community, then I’m surprised you’ve never bothered to ask anyone why it would upset them. Maybe the likely reason is that you don’t actually care enough.
On double standards Jim G. It’s once again really simple: A brown person can call another brown person a paki, in the same way a black person can call another black person a nigga, without being racist. This is not complicated? When you say something about your own race it isn’t racist. Anyone of another race using the words cannot use them without the words having their original racist connotations.
By the way, I’m perfectly aware that people of other races besides white people are guilty of racism. Where did I argue otherwise? It was you in fact that pointed out that your only experiences of racism are from ethnic minorities. Maybe someone should point out to you that white people can be racist?
Raf – (Sigh) You really are like a dog with a bone, aren’t you?
Any right-minded individual will have recognised my comment about the Police Force being institutionally racist, the mock question marks, and the caveat of “Lol. Well I never…” as being IRONIC. In fact, it is the worst-kept secret since Imogen Thomas tweeted “I’m shagging a Prem footballer. Guess who….?” Don’t waste your breath preaching to the converted, because I was actually agreeing with you. Pity the huge slice of fried potato on your shoulder prevented you from realising this.
(It is interesting you weren’t as outraged over alleged Police corruption and criminality regarding other issues, as you are with the racism issue, though.)
Again, for balance, the Inland Revenue and Police sometimes utilise a form of ‘means test’, ie. if a person is claiming benefits, or not paying VAT, but lives in a huge house with a selection of top-of-the-range vehicles on the drive, then they (may) be involved in nefarious activities. Likewise, if a youth is living in a complete shit-hole but drives a brand new Audi or Beemer, then they (may) have obtained this by illicit means. So it could be that some youths are stopped not because they may commit a crime, more that they may have already done so to fund their lifestyle. Just a thought.
With your penchant for Statistics, I am surprised you haven’t done some research into Ejections and Arrests for Racist Chanting and Racist-related Incidents in football grounds over the last 3 or 4 years. I think you may be surprised to find out that there were considerably more racially-aggravated incidents at Old Trafford than at Anfield. You will probably argue that OT is a lot bigger so the percentage of “racists” attending games is going to be affected, whereas I will simply argue my original point that (some) Man Utd fans are just hypocrites who don’t give a hoot about diversity. And their mock outrage was based on the Utd-LFC rivalry, and little else. But I am sure they are revelling in taking the moral high ground for a while.
Your double-standards point is interesting, and one that I was trying to edge you towards.
You say a brown person can call a brown person a name that I am not allowed to use, and black person can call another black person a name without it being racist. Well, let’s just have a quick look at Luis Suarez. He clearly isn’t white (or brown, or yellow) so I guess he must be black. A quick look at his grandfather confirms this. It’s in his DNA. And not millennia ago, like a lot of us……
So he is surely allowed to call a black man “negro” without causing offence.
Or is that too obtuse for you?
“Don’t waste your breath preaching to the converted,”
If I’m preaching to the converted why make the comment in the first place? You said “we live in very tolerant and racially equal society”. I said there’s engendered and institutional prejudices throughout it. It’s quite simple. I disagreed with you. I gave you evidence as to why. I made a point.
“I was actually agreeing with you. Pity the huge slice of fried potato on your shoulder prevented you from realising this.”
See there’s the difference between us Jim. When I made an argument and you disagreed with me. I took what you said on board, thought you were right, and retracted my statement. I even went as far as to put it in a separate line so it couldn’t be missed. You made your point. I accepted it. But when I made my point you felt the need to embed it in what you obviously thought was a very humorous ironic statement. You couldn’t just say; “Fair enough, point taken.” I’ve got no problem with irony, but it’s infinitely easier to appear ‘ironic’ if you weren’t going against something you’ve already said you firmly believe.
You seem to sporadically bounce around between what could be friendly banter, sensible commentary, deliberate taunting, and throwing abuse. You’ve made it clear that if you met me in the street you wouldn’t like me regardless of my football affiliation. I’ve stated firmly that I could not give a fuck. Which is why I’ve not bothered with humour or banter or needless vitriol. You clearly came on here to try and wind people up, mainly me at the moment; hence your need for the; “dog with a bone” comment. The thing is it doesn’t. It’s so obvious it just makes you sound like an idiot. You clearly don’t take the discussion seriously at all but I do. Because there may be others reading this who are concerned about racism in society. How behaviour and words can be construed regardless of intent because they genuinely don’t want to offend people.
I don’t actually have a chip on my shoulder, I just have a point to make. Every time you say something that makes you sound bigoted, racist, or ignorant I just call you up for it. In a similar way to you continually banging the drum about me having a chip on my shoulder.
“It is interesting you weren’t as outraged over alleged Police corruption and criminality regarding other issues, as you are with the racism issue, though.”
Two points about this. Firstly, the point of the discussion was racism. If you wanted to meander off somewhere else feel free, I was just sticking to the point at hand. Secondly ‘outrage’ is far too strong a word for my feeling of institutionalised racism in Britain. I don’t feel any outrage as such about it. I’ve lived it as I made clear earlier, seen it regularly, been affected by it in my youth, went on to study it at length, and now discuss many aspects of it regularly as part of my work. I think if you understand enough of the roots and reasons for something you just don’t feel as much about it. But this isn’t me saying I don’t care about it, as is obvious.
Not really sure what you’re saying, about but are you seriously trying to argue that a portion of black youths get stopped and searched because their lifestyle seems to be beyond their means? How would this work exactly? He’s on a council estate, but he’s black and he’s wearing a gold chain, so he’s probably done something illegal? This to me is hilarious.
As far as the stats are concerned for ejections as a result of racist abuse at Old Trafford and Anfield can you provide a link? I’ve searched but not found anything.
Raf – I made it perfectly clear that if I met you in the street I would “probably be mistrustful of you, if not openly hostile. But that is nothing to do with the fact that you are a black man, and everything to do with the fact that I imagine you would be sporting that horrific tea-towel that currently masquerades as your Home shirt.” It’s your football team I don’t like, or trust, not your skin.
If you wish to brand me an idiot or a bigot because I don’t agree with SOME of your views, that’s up to you. I came on here purely because my NewsNow link flagged up John Aldridge / Luis Suarez, and my interest got the better of me. And I came on here not to wind people up, merely to suggest that a lot of the Utd supporters who are suddenly experts on racism and diversity are little more than hypocrites.
Your final point is silly. I don’t believe the Police would stop a youth (and I left out the word black) for wearing a gold chain, more for the vehicle they are actually driving. And I deliberately did not mention that the car of choice for a lot of young black males happens to be a top-of-the range BMW because I did not want to stereotype. From personal experience, I used to get followed by the Police at least once a week (usually driving home late on a Thursday). I changed my car from a sports model Escort to a more modest mid-range Astra and the rear-mirror ‘intimidation’ (for want of a better word) stopped.
My point was, it is the vehicle they follow, not necessarily the occupant.
I have some stats for ground ejections / arrests, but they aren’t the ones I originally read, and are consequently less damning towards United than I remember. I can’t find the latest ones. Presumably they have been moved as a conspiracy towards me! So sorry for that.
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/crime/football-arrests-banning-orders/fbo-2010-11
Finally, RIP Kenny Morgans.
Jim G – As I said in my previous post, I’ve dispensed with the branding or labels, but as I also said you have said certain things which make you sound a certain way. By pointing each one of them out it gives you an opportunity to either reconfirm what you are saying or retract it, or convince me that I’m wrong.
Your mention of Aldridge and the Sunday World leads me to something I should have posted a while back. I have it on good authority from someone who deals with print journalism regularly that the paper has an agenda against Evra. They printed a story that this was the 3rd time Evra had made accusations of racism. THIS IS FLAT OUT UNTRUE. The editor of the paper was contacted concerning this but no response was given. Because there was no evidence to back up this claim.
On the Home Office figures; I’d expect this year’s to be radically different as clubs will be more likely to crack down.
Hat’s off to you Jim for the words about Kenny Morgans.