Dimitar Berbatov was left out of Manchester United’s starting line-up again, much to the surprise of many fans who had been expecting the Bulgarian to make a return after barely getting on the pitch this season.
Sit Alex Ferguson still insists that the striker has a future at the club, although this is becoming more and more difficult to believe.
However, it is good to see that in light of being dropped, Berba is continuing with his great attitude, which should be admired.
“It is hard because of the number of strikers we have,” said Ferguson. “Michael Owen is there, Federico Macheda, Mame Biram Diouf. Danny Welbeck won’t be back next week but probably the week after. It is not easy. Dimitar has been training terrific. His attitude is spot on. He will get his game time as the season wears on. There is no question about that.”
Man Utd News 24/7
he will start against Berba or my name is MachedarsDevil
Oops meant Leeds Shite *
Also …I CLAIM 2nd.
For the love of … we’re only 5 games in and SAF is already having to defend his team selection. It’s not his fault the team have flown out of the traps. If had dropped Welbeck or Rooney for Berbatov I would of be suprised.
Rooney has been excellent this season so should of been picked in front of Berbatov last night. We were slow in possesion all game and needed to nick a goal at the end, and as much as I admire Berbatov, he wouldn’t of helped in that matter.
Oops I meant “or My Name isn’t MachedarsDevil ”
Berba’s attitude is very good. It’s what you expect from a United player. He may not get as much game time as before, but he doesnt mouth off or complain. Our 3rd choice keeper could learn a lot from Dimi….
Sorry didn’t phrase that first paragraph well! I meant to say if he had dropped Welbeck or Rooney (When Welbeck was fit) I would of been surprised. Plus we’ve been playing fast flowing football and Hernandez is more of a straight swap for Welbeck and bringing in Berbatov would of changed the dynamic of the team
60 games in the season. As StatesideAussie loves to say, about 3 of our players will get to play in about 4/5th of that quantity – Rooney, Evra and Vidic. This season even our goalkeeper will not play that many games, with Vidic maybe a doubt because of the stupendous form of our other young defenders. Wayne Rooney is the only person guaranteed to get about 50 of those games in when completely fit, and there is no doubt about that since he is our talisman, marquee player and the person who takes us to a different level when he is on the pitch.
The rest of the players will be rotated in any way Sir Alex sees fit. It is his prerogative to use the players however he wants. He doesn’t have to be defending his team selection especially when we are only 5 games into the season. If Sir Alex says he wants Berbatov to stay and that he is not for sale, I believe him. Berbatov, like Hernandez, like Owen, like everybody else in this humongous squad that we have, will play a part in the end result. When we are lifting trophies at the end of the season, no player will feel left out because each of them will have contributed to that success. That is all that matters in the end.
BTW, Oh, Cedars, where art thou? I know you know this, but just because some dickhead distastefully compares you to Munich chanters doesn’t make it true? If that is the reason you’re holding out on not posting, don’t. There are people here who think your fun, light-hearted contributions are critical to ROM.
I really thought he would have players last night, defenitly come on as a sub . Its a strange one.
Never mind Berb, I was really hoping to see Ando come on for Carrick. Would like to see the passing stats first though as we were OK up front, but lacking midfield penetration, giving the ball away too often.
And he’ll be rewarded with a sub appearance at Leeds.
@Balaji – very true comment. Im getting annoyed at having to explain to people that we will have to play 60 games atleast (If we go to finals of each comp – then 68 i think) – so we will definately need our full squad.
I was hoping to see Berba in action and hoping Rooney doesnt play (but he would throw a hissy fit if he wasn’t selected) so he could be fresh for the Chavs but that dint happen. Berba will have to wait for his time. On Dannys form u could not have taken him out. And Chico is just a natural goal scorer – what u gonna do?
+ This utd team that is playing in the EPL (And expect it to follow into the UCL when they have another yrs XP under their belt) is playing a brand of fast paced short passing game (very similar to the barca model – only we use the wings to attack more while Barca is more central) and Berba does not fit into that system really well. But i love berba – i think he is uber cool and a great professional and i hope he gets the game time at Utd. If fergie doesnt really have him in his plans and rates Berba behind Macheda and Diouf and Owen then maybe sell him in January and let him play elsewhere. He has shown great respect to Utd and the manager and the fans and needs to be shown respect as well!
Actually we will play 47 games at least and if we reach every final, only then it’s 64.
Im glad he didnt play in place of Rooney coz if he had and we had drawn all the Berbahaters would be having a mud slinging contest and saying how with Rooney things would have been different.
@bayobuya, Well that is one optimistic way of looking at why Berbatov did not play yesterday. Good one!
Berba will get his chance soon or later and when it come its all depends on himself….
currently we’re playing attractive football with young players..
all seems good. we’re thrashing teams outrageously. but there will be a time when we’ll need to grind results.. thats where the experienced heads come into play…
last season berba scored 20 and i don’t think he was a regular started say jan onwards..
he still played a lot.. and he knows that and so does sir alex..
about our 3rd choice keeper : he’s way below united level.
west brom is about his level..
“Sit Alex Ferguson still insists that the…” – Sit Alex Ferguson?? Are you serious Scott? Now, that’s blasphemy! You may make any mistake BUT that!
Other than that, another post on the top top attitude of last season’s top goal scorer. I really feel for the guy. I wish he would start playing already. And not in some Carling Cup match but in a proper League game at least.
RedManWalking – Hello mate! Did you really fall asleep watching United last night?
I think Berbatov is seen as a spare Rooney. There’s loads of talk about a surplus of talent up front at the moment but this is just the opening of the season. We’re going to need depth in the squad, and when we do, sorted.
Year after year we see Arsenal become toothless when RvP gets his annual injury crisis, or Chelsea struggle ineffectually when Drogba has the lurgi. We dodged a similar bullet last season, dodged it and won the title. You’ve got to have quality attackers on the bench.
If a player as good as Berbatov is willing to be a squad player for us, then we are very lucky indeed.
Like I said yesterday, the club had its chance to sell Berba to PSG in the summer. The money was good, about 18m, but SAF wasn’t interested. So if SAF wants to keep Berba on and sees a role for him, and if The Berb himself is satisfied with that, then we should just let them get on with it.
The strange thing is, the current situation seems to have both camps in a knot, both the Berba-lovers and the haters. The lovers can’t understand why he’s not playing and want to see more of him. Meanwhile, the haters take the current situation as a clear “proof” that he’s not up to it (“SAF doesn’t trust him”, as if The Berb had scored only two goals last season instead of 21) and therefore feel compelled to invent stories about how he’s on the way out (and not before time!).
I am an unabashed Berba lover. But I think both sides need to understand there are two important concepts at play here: rotation, and transition. As Balaji noted, I’ve pointed previously (in some detail) that United has very few players who play 40+ games a season.
And this season, another imperative has been added to the mix, which is transition. We all know what’s going on here, and the hard reality is that fans of some of the older players in our squad — honorable servants, like Park, Carrick, The Berb, Rio and others — just have to get used to the idea that their time is drawing to a close.
The end isn’t there yet. But it’s coming — and it’s coming at a pace that is not within their power to control. Because it’s not just about their own form, it’s about what’s happening around them too. The form of the younger guys plays a role, of course, but even beyond that, there is the simple need to push the changes through — even if the older players have life left in them, and even if the younger ones weren’t fully ready (though they look pretty good, don’t they?), it would still have to be pushed through. Why? Because in sport, you can’t know if someone’s ready to take that final step until they actually do it. This is not a university, where you earn your degree first and are then deemed “ready”. And in sport, it’s rarely clear just when a player’s time will be up. There’s no fixed, predictable retirement age.
I saw an interesting quote yesterday from a coach I respect in a different sport, which sums it up:
“One thing that will never change in sport is that there will come a moment in everyone’s career when they are either going backwards or someone else is going past them. For a player in the heat of battle it’s often quite hard to see this moment and that’s why the coach is the best person to assist by making the hard decision. And these decisions must be made.”
@smartalex
How are you, mate? Sorry for the late reply (if it was late). Been trying to find out which is the “current thread”.
Yup. I slept off after the 1st 30 minutes and woke up in the 87th minute! Was cursing myself after that! I missed Giggsy’s goal! I should have slept early and put an alarm to wake up at 00:15 AM! But, those 30 minutes were the least excited I have been watching United this season. Heard United were much better second half. *sigh* Will watch the replay I guess.
Drink coffee man!
StateSideAussie @ 15:01: “the club had its chance to sell Berba to PSG in the summer. The money was good, about 18m, but SAF wasn’t interested.”
Maybe. Maybe not. It takes three to tango in the transfer business – so another way to look at this “chance to sell Berba to PSG” could be that Dimmy and his agent decided to see out their contract with UTD and then cash in next summer.Whether you’re a BerbaLover, a BerbaSceptic, or a BerbaHater, it is a very odd situation. Last year’s top scorer in the EPL from open play has had – what ? – twenty minutes so far even though three of the four EPL matches have been blow-outs. It’s not like we’re talking about LittleMikey who was obviously bought for insurance/back-up and whose pay is related to his appearances.
I acknowledge that none of us has a clue about the club’s internal dynamics BUT it is very curious that SAF has not only put Dimmy on the bench but also kept him there when – as was the case last night – it seemed to me (even me !) that there was a good argument for the manager to bring in his only tall striker against Luisao and his partner.
If SAF is not playing Dimmy then what’s he supposed to say ? “I’m pissed with the guy for refusing to go to PSG”, or “He screwed up at the end of last season and I don’t “trust” him any more” or something similar ? Who knows, eh ?
BUT there is an old saying – “if it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, then it’s likely to be a duck”
@ RedManWalking
It was a typical away game in the CL. Benfica were quite good, and got better as their confidence increased. We were not set up to attack, and they were strong at the back, especially Luisão (The ‘Ânderson’ who did play!) He penned a three year extension last week, and it was easy to see why he is highly rated, as he read the play immaculately. Poor Wayne was swamped and isolated, which he handled without losing his cool. Benfica always play it strong in midfield, with 3 combative midfielders starting every game. Our midfield have had no game-time this season, and so the match was expected to be a dour affair.
Many positives out of the game, including confident, comfortable displays from Evra, Smalling and Lindegaard. The squad is closer now to being a ‘squad’, not a team with a reserve side. As important, we have the away point we needed, earned at our main group rival, so now have every reason to feel confident of progressing top of our group. Not bad after 1 game!
Looking ahead, we freshened up across the board, therefore not affecting continuity or confidence in key positions despite the resting of de Gea, Anderson, Young, Nani, Jones and Ferdinand. For once, we will probably not be knackered after an away game in Europe, surely a blessing against Chelsea, who will be desperate to leave Old Trafford with a point this weekend.
Come on United!
Ginseng is guaranteed to waken the dead!
Red bull, it is then!
We’ve heard enough Red bull from the Carrick bashers without drinking it as well!
@smartalex
Thanks for that, mate! You should be one of the pundits on ten sports
. DId a much better job than them in analyzing the game. I got naught from those idiots yesterday.
To be honest, I hate United playing 4-5-1 keeping Rooney as the lone striker. I feel it completely negates Rooney’s creativity especially when our midfield is having “one of those days”. I feel, if we have to play 4-5-1, then play Rooney in midfield and play a poacher up front.
I was actually looking forward to the game because, well, United were playing and also I wanted to see out other players. I guess Valencia and Fletcher need some more games and you can’t expect Carrick to do both the attacking and the defensive duties of the MF. I was impressed with Evans and Smalling (again!) in the few minutes I did see. Also impressed with Lindegaard but I feel he falls short of De Gea when he comes to ball distribution. But, at the same time, I think the guy is oozes confidence. I don’t think De Gea would have even dived for the first goal.
And I expect us to thrash Chelski. Cleverley will be a big miss though. He really brings something else to the midfield.
@Willie
It gives you wings!
@ RedManWalking
We could have played Hernandez up front, with Wayne in midfield, although whether he would have had the discipline required to not move up into the 2nd striker role, I’m not so sure. Anyway, Giggs needed the game time, and scored on one of his few forays forward, so Sir Alex probably got that right! Also, Wayne may have been isolated, but he still kept them busier than either Chicharito or Berbatov would have, as Benfica clearly fear Rooney (as borne out by the pre-match interviews and on-field tactics.)
I agree with your assessment of the relative strengths of our keepers, which confirms another selection plaudit due to Sir Alex, as we did not need quick and accurate distribution (to the relatively slow midfield of Carrick, Fletcher, Giggs and Park) as much as we normally would ( to the quicker Young, Anderson, Cleverley, Nani.) Rather a shot-stopper, as Lindegaard seems to have the edge in that department, from what little we’ve seen. Either way, I’m very happy with both our new keepers and their performances thus far.
ps We have wings! – The best selection of wingers in the world right now, with Nani, Young, Valencia, and Park, Giggs, and even Cleverley, Fletch and Rooney able to play in the wide positions!
@smartalex
If there is one player who, I feel, can play anywhere on the football field, it’s Wayne Rooney. The guy has shown time and time again that he can play on any position for the team. He has played in the wing, as a right back, main striker, second striker, central mid. Last season, he basically played the Scholes role in the second half of the season.
But, I think you are right. It could be that Sir Alex wanted to give game time to the other players. Maybe he just wanted a draw and didn’t want to risk injuring anyone from the main XI before the Chelsea game. But, if that’s the case, I wish he had played Berba because he definitely deserves some game time too.
On Lindegaard and De Gea, I don’t think one is the main keeper and the other is secondary. I think we actually have two main keepers and a secondary keeper – Amos. Lindegaard and De Gea are two very different keepers and both can be used for different type of opponents. This season will be interesting and I feel Sir Alex is going to surprise everyone again!
RedManWalking
I think that Wayne is much more suited to the lone-striker role that Berbatov, and that giving Dimi game time in that role would have done him no good. His touch is phenomenal anyway, and all that would have come from playing him last night is bruises, to his body, his confidence and his pride. Berbatov accepts that he must simmer until called, then come straight to the boil. Owen understands that role, and we are fortunate that Sir Alex is able to have such top-notch back-up ready, waiting and willing.
@smartalex
I meant play Berba as the lone striker with Rooney in midfield. He could have tried that in the second half at least. Berba plays much better with the creativity from Rooney. That is another thing I admire in Wayne – He brings out the best in other players. I feel Rooney plays much better when he is able to create. The more he gets the ball at his feet, the better.
It is indeed amazing that Sir Alex has such talented players as back-up that too willing and ready like you mentioned. This is in contrast to clubs like Chelsea where you have players like Torres bitching day in day out even though he is the starting XI. Another fact that shows the genius of Sir Alex.
You are also right about the fact that Berbatov will get his chance in time. But, we know that Berba needs some games to build his confidence. And I feel that Champions League match against Benfica would have been good for this. I feel the more he delays Berba’s return to the field, the more he might lose confidence. But, Sir Alex knows best. Let’s wait and see. As excited as ever for the team!
Denton … well, as usual, we disagree about Berbatov. But the idea that SAF really did want to sell Berbatov, and was only thwarted by the striker’s refusal to go, doesn’t hold up.
1. If that is true, why would Ferguson tell PSG coach Leonardo that Berbatov is not for sale because he’s counting on him? Why would SAF lie to another coach in order to keep Berbatov’s machinations secret? Why would he not at least allow the other coach to open talks with Berbatov? Or tell the other coach, “I want to sell him but he won’t go. But if you expect to do business with me in future, you will keep this quiet”?
2. The idea that Berbatov wants to see out his contract and “cash in” next summer doesn’t wash. The club has a unilateral right to extend his deal by one year without renegotiating, so it would be simplicity itself for them to put the kibosh on that. If the club wants to play hard-ball (and why wouldn’t they, if he really is dicking them around by refusing to leave?), they could easily make him wait until the summer after. And he isn’t getting any younger. He’ll be 31 by next summer, and 32 by the summer after. Every year past 30, it gets harder and harder for a striker to “cash in”. How easy will it be when he’s 32, about to turn 33, and has played only a bit part for 2-3 years?
3. If Ferguson really wanted Berbatov (or any player) out, you think the player would win that one?
4. If Berbatov’s goal was to cash in, I am sure that PSG could have made him a very happy and wealthy man. They have tons of dosh. If they were prepared to offer United 18 million, I’m sure they could have afforded a nice fat signing-on bonus. And if both United and PSG wanted the deal, and Berbatov was that much of a mercenary, it most surely would have been done. A determined buyer, a determined seller, both very-well heeled, and a player who’s holding out for the cash? That spells “done deal” to me.
5. And finally, if SAF really wanted Berbatov out, and really has no use for him, why would he keep putting him on the bench? Gary Neville tells the story of how he once pissed Ferguson off. By way of payback, he was sidelined for some weeks. During that time, he was made to travel for every away game but was never used — not even on the bench. That’s how a manager makes his point. If you have no intention of using him, and just want him gone, why stick him on the bench? I mean, it’s not like there’s a shortage of other strikers he could put there, is it?
RMW … I’m not so sure about the confidence argument, re Berbatov. I know that is the conventional wisdom. But just watching him (on the bench!), he doesn’t look like someone who’s having a hard time. His body language doesn’t look like someone who’s got the weight of the world on his shoulders. He doesn’t look gloomy. He doesn’t look like someone who feels his value is doubted. Like someone who’s in the doghouse.
And given how moody the Bulgarian can be, I think that’s significant. After all, as Denton said, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck…
I bet Sir Alex isn’t having any sleepless nights over Berbatov! We’re all having a lot of interesting and absorbing discussion though, so the Bulgarian fills our thoughts whether he plays, or not.
Dimitar Berbatov is the best reserve player in the world right now! There’s nothing quite like some silky on the side.
The Berba effect, is a term that can be used in the future. Of an polarization in any RoM issue. Where in seeking a starring 11, witch by the way in some 57 games season has become a myth. In the last 8 years I have watch almost every Man Utd game. Maybe 4 or 5 players average 40+ games a year, some and I’m only guessing some 5 players with 30+ games and 8 player with 15 to 25 games and 5 to 8 players with some games. Towards the last 10 games in the PL and the final 16 of the CL SAF has established his best 15 and will pick the squad from them.
All the other is minutia in trying to make our own point or in some sick way win an argument with other posters. When this turns from constructive criticizer to contentious point of fact. Then it is the Berba effect.
Berba is a world class player, who was surpassed by the worlds hottest striker from Jan. on. This does not make him a bad player. We can all speculate witch is fun done right, why he has excepted his place, and he has done with such grace. Why should we call that a disgrace. Now Wellbeck is stepping up as well.
Don’t get caught up in a BERBA EFFECT, on anything Man Utd!!!
Darren Fletcher on the battle for a starting spot at United:
“I have been at Manchester United with great players. It is always a challenge to get into the team. You are always there for them, passing on advice. It is a team, although it is a squad game. You want to be playing yourself but you have been in the position they are in just now. I had a lot of experienced players handing advice to me. I will be doing the same for them. The ultimate goal is being successful for United.”
“Manchester United are always going to attract top players. There are always players coming in. I look at the squad we have got and it is a challenge definitely. I have seen it as a challenge throughout my career. You have to earn the right to play for Manchester United. The young lads are doing it now and hopefully we will all play a part over the coming season.”
http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-Features/Football-News/2011/Sep/darren-fletcher-accepts-battle-from-youngsters.aspx
Zibbie is the arch matchdebater! Seriously, when you’ve seen one Berba debate, you’ve seen them all. I’d rather focus on the players, that are playing. For whatever reason, he doesn’t seem to be in Fergie’s plans. That may change over the coming months. Hopefully, anyway.
LOL!! OOOO willie!
@Stateside
By building his confidence, I meant he his confidence in front of goal. He can come on any time and do the most amazing things with that football, make the slickest pass and his touch on the ball gives you the impression that the ball is in zero gravity and floating in air. But after all that he can be 5 yards out and shoot wide. He needs a few games to build his confidence in front of goal. I might be wrong, but that’s what I have noticed.
I have not questioned Berbatov’s attitude to United or said that he feels his value is doubted. By confidence, all I was referring to his confidence in front of goal. I can bet you, given a game at this moment, he will not take most of his chances and try to pass every ball to Rooney in front of goal even if there is no pass there. So, I wondered wouldn’t it be better to not introduce him into a must-win game and give the Berba-haters more reason to hate on and introduce him in not so important game like yesterdays.
Berba’s attitude has always been top and I am sure it will remain so. The man is absolute class. I compared this in my previous post with that of Torres who whines even though he is in the starting XI. Torres prefers to blame his team-mates for not being able to score – calling them slow and old.
To elaborate my point on Berba’s confidence, I would like to compare him to Cantona. Now, both players, technically, are similar. Berbatov has the potential to do what Cantona used to do. The difference is Cantona was extremely confident in himself and so he is the King. If Berba had half that confidence, I can guarantee you that he would produce the most amazing things on that field. I feel we got him very late. An absolutely amazing player!
Actually Berba’s attitude disappoints me. I’d rather a player of his world class quality stand up for himself and make it known that ‘he’s not here to pick his nose’ , rather than fester on the bench while lesser talents get a run in. To do otherwise smacks of a lack of ambition or else a willingness of pick up an easy pay cheque. This is United. You need to show pride. I’d rather Berba said play me or sell me than mess about with this nonsense much longer. I guess Berba wants to prove himself as a United great and I’d hate to see him go – IMHO his talent is without in the EPL- but when you’re fighting the likes of Rooney and Co for places you need to show grit or look for a new berth.
I’ve noticed a ‘who plays up front with Wayne’ attitude which is not very healthy. There should never be any shoe-ins at club like United, particularly for strikers. Form comes and goes, players need rest, and different opponents pose different challenges. That being said, Berba and Chico up front with Wayne in the hole behind as play-maker would be my preferred striking line up. However, Jones and Young would be the first names on my team-sheet, if first names there have to be, together with Rooney if played deeper.
Rant over. We’ll see how things pan out over the ups and downs of the season.
Stateside – Hello mate. Great post about Berbatov at 17.17pm
Typo – I meant to write (about Berbs) …’IMHO his talent is without peer in the EPL’
And I mean it too.
RMW @ 19:21: ” If Berba had half that confidence, I can guarantee you that he would produce the most amazing things on that field. I feel we got him very late. An absolutely amazing player!”
Agreed.
I can see the logic of StateSideAussie’s long and thoughtful reply (@ 17:17) to me (@ 15:34) BUT I’m not comfortable with it. StateSideAussie is just too optimistic and logical – but, then, I’m much more drawn to insidious, conspiracy theories. AND sometimes that walking, quacking duck is actually a wild goose that’s being chased.
I bet good odds, that Zibbie’s chasing that wild goose!
RedManWalking
I must agree that Berbatov is a confidence player, even more than most. He relies on his sublime touch and incredible control, as well as his vision and understanding. He cannot make up for a bad day by running harder or putting a foot in. Playing him in the Benfica game would have done more harm than good, in my opinion.
I’d rather build his touch and form by playing him at Leeds on the 20th, then in the Basel match at Old Trafford on the 27th. Although, I must admit that as long as Hernandez, Welbeck and of course Rooney are doing well, Berbatov might not be needed until the concentrated run of matches on 15, 18, 23, 29 October and 2, 5 November.
I guess that being known as a man who puts his team first can only happen when you are sidelined or hard done by. It’s very sad indeed that he is missing out. On the other hand, to be part of United at this stage of his career is far better than playing regularly for a team where he is critical, over-used, and will not win anything or play top football. He’s had that experience for club and country for a dozen or so years.
He and Michael Owen would not leave for the world on a platter, just as Giggs and Scholes stay until the end.
All that bothers me in this Berba debate is this. People talk about the squad game however the problem I have is Fergie does not really rotate his strikers very much at all. He has seven strikers now but he is clearly only interested in Rooney, Hernandez and Welbeck. Where does this scenario leave Berba and Owen also to a lesser extent Macheda and Diouff. Whilst the latter two do get games regularly in the reserves Berba and Owen do not play at all. Where this becomes a problem is if and when Fergie decides to play them he will expect a top class performance from them. Is that really being fair to either of them if they have barely played at all as in the case of Berba or not at all in the case of Owen. All players need some game time but Berba and Owen are not getting any. So how does this equate to a squad game?
Denise Williams
We’ve only had 5 games. You will see the squad as the games start coming more often, and as injuries and tactics play more of a role. Also, the young/new players are kept in if they play well, as the players like Park, Giggs, etc have already proved their worth.
Are you the one who lays the Golden Eggs?
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck it’s been given a good rogering by Zibbie!
He roasted that duck! Plucky cunt!
Watching the reserve games – let me just say Diouf is a good player. The guy is really growing on me, he offers something different and I think he has a future at United. Anyone who doubts that needs to get down and watch some reserve games. His movement is great and finishing is getting sharper. Gel’s well with Pogba. Has pace, intelligence and strength, good in the air.
Machaeda is also looking like he is coming back to form, but he has not quite shown the form I thought he would by this stage, maybe that Sampadoria loan has knocked him back.
It’s also great watching how the team coming through links together – you can definately see the pass and move, creative midfielder, and pace pace pace with skill…
re Berba, I am not too bothered really, I think he’s finished at the Club as a first 11 player. I think it’s obvious we are moving to bring through youth and that really is what I think United is about. I think the Club is losing 6 million a year putting the guy on the bench and he should be sold, it’s alot money.
Agree with @ Mr C – you want players flighting for places, can’t see Cantona being content with a place on the bench, didn’t work for Scholes either, but some talented players, also like Owen, seem okay with that if it broadly fits in with their ambitions and they are comfortable in life (i.e.Owen is near his horses).
However, for me, the more I watch our youth team, the less I feel we need Berba or Owen, and the more I think that Carrick and Fletcher are going to really have a fight on their hand when Pogba steps up. Some of his approach play just makes you hold your breath, the guy is that good, I would rate him above Cleverly from what I seen and I rate Cleverly above everyone in mid bar Ando.
Time to look forward. Really glad to hear SAF mention Diouf and Machaeda as player he has in mind.
@ Denise. I think you’re right that at the moment SAF is only interested in Rooney, Chicha and Welbeck. But this is because if Rooney is fit then he’s the first name on the team sheet. It then becomes a question of who plays with him… in the league when we are generally playing 2 up front results since the turn of the year show that Rooney works best with a fast, nippy striker making runs beyond him to open up space and to ping balls to. In this sense it is great that Danny is proving he is capable of playing at this level as he gives us back up when Rooney is fit but Chica is unavailable, which is needed as this seems to be the preference. So that’s the three.
However we all know that Rooney will not be able to play every match this season. He generally misses about 4/6 weeks a season with injuries and will need resting at other times for key matches. In my mind this is why Berba is still with us. As back up for Rooney as playmaker rather than a strike partner… and that’s why he hasn’t played yet… Wayne is knocking them in from all over the park… he’s undroppable!!
Little Micky is an impact sub, when he’s needed… and Diouf and Macheda haven’t quite yet played their way in to contention… So that’s my opinion… 5 is spot on, and a couple in the reserves to get some experience.
Suggests Leeds will be 442 with Berba and Macheda maybe? I’d have thought Welbeck if he was fit. Can’t remember the last time Owen started a match so maybe on after 60 mins?
Berba is still with us because he does not want to leave United or at least not for PSG. His agent has repeatedly said he does not want to leave and made this point a number of times around the PSG story.
I don’t the Club have ever gone public to try to push a player out, even with Gibson, they were happy to sell him, he decided to stay, adds to the wage bill, but the Club still treats him well and looks to include him. They let Hargreaves run his contract fdown, always looking to give him an opportunity.
With Kuz, as I said, they needed to hang on to him for his experience until Lind or De Gea showed they could do the business. Still think he will now go in Jan if there is an offer.
You have to admire the way the Club does not publicly push players out or humiliate them. Wes and O’Shea leaving was a surprise. I admire the way SAF does business. Just look at the way City hs publicly embarrased some of the players they lured for big money – I mean Adebayor can be a twat, but the guy is not someone you put to train with the reserve team, he is better than that and humiliating him like that shows the complete lack of class of the blue goons.
As such, what the Club really things re Berba staying, is not something any of us are likely to find out.
@King Eric … cheers mate.
@RMW (and others) … yeah, I got what you meant about confidence in front of goal. I guess we will just have to see.
@Mr C … I understand what you mean, but I think you are confusing two different issues. Just because The Berb (apparently) accepts his role (whatever that is), and seems relaxed and comfortable on the bench, doesn’t mean he lacks ambition. Surely, the appropriate place for him to demonstrate his ambition is on the training ground — not while he’s sitting on the bench on game day. And by all accounts (or by SAF’s account, which is really the only one that counts), Berbatov’s attitude in training has been first-rate. SAF has said that several times this season alone, including again this week. And SAF wouldn’t say that about any player, unless that player was indeed busting a gut to get into the team — because that’s exactly the attitude that SAF expects and demands. And that’s the attitude that expresses ambition.
NBI … no, I think you’re wrong. SAF has pushed players out before. The names Beckham and Stam spring to mind. Now, I don’t recall all the details of those cases, but I am fairly certain that Stam was one example of a player who was pushed out. I believe SAF later said that it was a mistake. And it’s not clear to me whether Roy Keane jumped or was pushed (maybe a bit of both). In any event, it is inconveivable to me that if SAF wanted a player to leave, that player would defy him and stay. It is doubly inconceivable to me that if that did happen, SAF would then respond by giving that player a regular spot on the bench (even if unused).
http://www.manutd.com/en/Fanzone/News-And-Blogs/2011/Sep/blog-fans-have-never-had-it-so-good.aspx?pageNo=3
Ok who are the little twats that called for Giggs retirement? Show urselves now
I cant point to proof of this thought ,but i felt that Berba was possibly on the move in the close season .The deal involved another player coming in and it did not pan out .However, january may see it happen ?
Like i say i can not back it up . Neither can i understand why he is content to sit on the bench .His confidence must be stretched .
@Stateside: As ever, you make excellent points well. Nonetheless, a world class player like Berbatov cannot be or should not be content to wait on a promise to get a game, now and then, particularly if he is stepping up to the mark in training. As manager, SAF can afford to take in the wider picture club-wise and make the calls. But Berba’s a footballer, not the manager or coach, and top class footballers need to play regularly. I can’t help feeling that the Berba’s getting the short end of the stick as a consequence of the Rooney ‘ambition’ nonsense last year, and the accomodations of Rooney that followed, which altogether is a bad sign.
Smartalex I see your point. However the problem is Fergie very rarely rotated his strikers last season. During the last three months of last season Fergie promised Owen game time on several oaccasions however it never came. So I will not be holding my breath this season. Fergie says that he chooses which strikers to play according to who can win the game for them. This begs the question if he does not think Berba or Owen can win a game for them why offer them a contract.
Denise Williams – I guess that the best answer to that question is that the transfer window closes on the 1st of September, the injuries and form only become apparent much later, and squad selection is an inexact science.
That doesn’t help Michael Owen though, does it? Of course, if MO could have last year over again, he would make the same decision to stay at United. For one thing, he achieved a life-time goal when he received his League Winner’s Medal, and he came damn close to getting a Champions League Winner’s Medal, but had to settle for a Runner’s Up gong.
Also, it’s not really accurate to consider that Sir Alex “does not think Berba or Owen can win a game for” United. If that can be concluded simply because they weren’t selected, then every time we don’t choose a player for a month we should get rid of them as they clearly don’t feature in our plans. Not actually true. Just because another player is considered more suitable for a particular game, or run of games, does not change the fact that every member of our squad is considered eminently suitable by the gaffer.
I just watched the United CD for last season. It is peppered with interview slots with Berbatov. That guy is so fucking cool its untrue. I love his attitude to the club, and his commitment to the team. If he wasn’t playing for United, I bet he would be a United fanatic just like the rest of us. Sad that he hasn’t got off the bench yet, and hope the Fergie will give him a chance soon. The guy deserves respect from all United fans.
Can’t wait for Sundays game – I feel it in my bones that we are gonna whip Chelsea’s arse.
@ stateside – u may be right, if SAF wants a player out he goes, maybe he is not decided yet and is waiting to see how the season evolves. I would be surprised if owen and berba were here next year though unless one of them gets some serious starts.
Also I do think this affects ber. He said he was too ashamed to come out at CL finals. But I agree with posters that u want to see some fight in a player, maybe he does behind scenes.
NBI @ 16:54: “I would be surprised if owen and berba were here next year though unless one of them gets some serious starts.”
I wouldn’t be surprised to see LittleMikey kept around as “insurance”; I’d be astonished to see Dimmy kept on – with wages three times those paid to LittleMikey – UNLESS something unforeseen happens AND he starts playing regularly AND doing-the-business. It’s possible but not, I think, likely.
My best guess is that Dimmy – like LittleMikey – is being kept around as insurance in case TheWayneBoy and Chicharito and Danny Welbeck somehow come down with simultaneous injuries. I’m not recommending this but one only has to think back to the situation in November/December of the year before last in the match against Fulham when the back four was comprised of Ritchie De Laet, DarrenFletcherinho and Michael Carrick.
These kind of “imperfect storms” can happen. Moreover, since no money was spent of WeeWesley’s wages – and a lot of wages were saved by the retirement/transfers in the off-season – I’d guess that there was “spare money” in the wages column and SAF got his way to have these two veteran professionals kept around as “insurance” rather than confronting a situation in which Mame Biram Diouf and KikoTheKid were the first-choice strikers.
AND while I can see the logic of StateSideAussie’s defence of Dimmy’s continued role at OT, I don’t buy into it because I think that SAF’s reason for keeping him around was not because he thinks of him as a valuable, first-choice player but, rather, because the OldFootieKnight knows that shit happens – TheWayneBoy has a history of leg, ankle, foot injuries; Chicharito has a history of concussions; Danny Welbeck has a history of leg problems. If these three guys were healthy – and one could feel confident that they would remain healthy – then Dimmy would have been sold (if he wanted to go). In addition, while Dimmy’s value must be declining in the transfer market, he still retains “potential value” in the event of an unforeseen injury crisis to the first three strikers.
AND, finally, while Dimmy might not “cash in” with a bumper new contract if he is not renewed at OT, any team that signs him as a free agent will have to pay high wages as well as a hefty signing-on fee. At 30, Dimmy would be in the autumn of his career but after watching unbelievable amounts of money being thrown around in all professional sports for the past two/three decades, I am of the opinion that there is always some foolish owner (or desperate manager) who is eager to be parted from his money in the hope that an autumnal career can be turned into an Indian Summer.
@denton davey: That’s a lot of words just to say you are a Berba hater…whoops sorry, ‘sceptic’.:) That much is known anyway already from your previous posts but I can’t figure out why you spend so much effort aiming so much ire at one player. If you think Berba is crap, that’s fine. We all have our opinions. However at some point it would be useful to know why you actually think so. ‘Indian summer?’ ‘foolish owner?’ How’s that logic work? We have several players over 30 at the moment and one who is 37….
I consider that Berba, a world class player, has been treated poorly and disrespectfully, characteristics that I do not associate with Manchester United as a club or SAF as a manager. Whatever anyone might think at about SAF’s tactics on the pitch from time to time he is a great manager. A common theme of that greatness has been a fierce loyalty to his players with the expectation that they reciprocate. No player is bigger than the club and several have been shown the door, including great ones like Stam, when SAF suspected disloyalty. Given this doctrine, I cannot understand how Rooney is still at United, other than for compelling commercial reasons, after the affront Wayne showed to the club, the manager, his fellow players and the fans last year.
Because of this policy departure there must be a wider issue at play on the Berba issue. Perhaps Berba has done something wrong ‘behind the scenes’ that we don’t know about? This is unlikely given SAF’s utterances and the opportunity to sell Berba before the transfer deadline which was passed up. More likely, and this is speculation on my part, is that SFA is anxious to prevent Rooney, an experienced younger player in an increasingly young side, throwing another club-rocking strop if rotated or dropped, as well as the need to cover risks of suspension or injury. Whatever the reason, Berbatov needs serious game time before long.
Wayne’s United and England record indicates that he’s liable to play very badly for long periods if not continually supported by service of the highest quality from midfield in particular. When the likes of Tevez and Scholes departed or were departing, and Fletch went down, Rooney must have felt desperate. Certainly his form was shite. Wayne’s an excellent player but he cannot carry off the lone striker role or handle man marking at the highest level. The contrast between Wayne’s abject form for much of last year compared with his return to quality with a rejuvenated midfield in place supplying the chances illustrates the point. In contrast, Berbatov, a more technically gifted player, is less dependent in this regard and as such he stepped up to the plate last season with his twenty goals even though our midfield was lacking. It would be interesting to see how Berba would fare with the quality of service our front men our now getting.
http://ascology.com/news/sports/football/20131-Manutd-set-for-billion-Qatar-takeover.html.
Any truth to this link???
Mr C @ 12:54: ” If you think Berba is crap, that’s fine. We all have our opinions. However at some point it would be useful to know why you actually think so.”
“Square peg/round hole” – I’ve written this on many occasions. I most certainly don’t consider Dimmy to be “crap” but, equally, he is not a “world class player” although I would acknowledge – and have done so repeatedly – that he does have fantastic touch and sublime skills. But – and here is the issue in my opinion – he is not suited to UTD’s pass-and-move, high-speed style that has only just been re-discovered after going into hiding for several years. Dimmy slows down the team’s play.
“Whatever the reason, Berbatov needs serious game time before long.”
Well again it’s only my opinion but Dimmy’s not going to get “serious game time” unless there are injuries to the three guys ahead of him (TheWayneBoy, Chicharito, and Danny Welbeck) which is what I wrote and why I speculated that he was being kept on as insurance.
“Berbatov, a more technically gifted player, is less dependent in this regard and as such he stepped up to the plate last season with his twenty goals even though our midfield was lacking. It would be interesting to see how Berba would fare with the quality of service our front men our now getting.”
I’d dispute your assertion that Dimmy is “more technically gifted” – sure, he has those silky skills but they are not evident AT SPEED which is the true hallmark of a supreme talent. TheWayneBoy’s ability to control the ball might be inferior to Dimmy’s but he can – and will – play at speed and he can – and will – play wall-passes at speed. Maybe Dimmy can do it BUT – and it’s really speaking to the point – he doesn’t.
In a sense, Dimmy is comparable to Nani in that both of them keep the ball too long and too often but there’s a key difference – Berbatov plays centrally and Nani plays out wide. A central attacking player has less time/space so when Dimmy holds onto the ball the result is that the momentum gets lost and all the build-up play is neutralized whereas much of the time when Nani holds onto the ball his purpose is to start the momentum. Fans get frustrated with Nani when he stops the momentum – and this is because he is displaying the DimmyStyle. What I’m trying to get at is that it’s a team game and – in my opinion, of course – the DimmyStyle is not suited to that and,therefore, “square peg/round hole”.
” ‘Indian summer?’ ‘foolish owner?’ How’s that logic work? We have several players over 30 at the moment and one who is 37….”
Perhaps I wasn’t clear enoughbut this paragraph was a response to StateSideAussie (@ 17:17 on Thursday) which was itself a reply to my earlier comment that day (@ 15:34). My point was that what we might call “the BerbatovFinancialStrategy” is based on the expectation that “there is always some foolish owner (or desperate manager) who is eager to be parted from his money in the hope that an autumnal career can be turned into an Indian Summer.” I am not privy to their planning but I have watched more-than-enough professional sports to know that this scenario is repeated over-and-over-and-over-again.
Finally, you ask ” I can’t figure out why you spend so much effort aiming so much ire at one player.”
This is a fair question – and one that pisses me off, too. BUT you will find that I don’t initiate such discussions but, rather, respond to other guy’s suggestions that Dimmy is key to SAF’s plans or – in some cases – the Messiah (i.e., the second coming of Eric Cantona). He’s not been all that. The empirical evidence is plain to see and it’s frustrating to me that guys like you do not acknowledge that evidence – i.e., one good half-season in three full years, key misses in important games, benched regularly for the big games, and so on. In my mind, he’s not TheMessiah but – to quote the Pythons – he’s just a naughty boy.
I suppose that I shouldn’t bother rising-to-your-bait. The more fool me.
@denton davey 15:21. Thanks for commenting back. I wasn’t trying to bait you – well not much anyway. However, I really did want to know why you are always on Berba’s case. Seriously. Life’s about opinions and I wanted to know why you are always so down on the guy. Anyway, just having read what you said, I’ve just a few comments of my own:
First:
“Square peg/round hole” – I’ve written this on many occasions. I most certainly don’t consider Dimmy to be “crap” but, equally, he is not a “world class player”.
There’s more prejudice than logic in evidence here. If a square peg in a round whole ends up as our top scorer in a Premier League winning season, when the MF wasn’t playing particularly well, and the likes of a ‘world class’ striker like Rooney couldn’t hack it, then that would suggest that not only is Berba world class – he must be damn genius!
Next:
‘he is not suited to UTD’s pass-and-move, high-speed style that has only just been re-discovered after going into hiding for several years. Dimmy slows down the team’s play.’
In one breath you say that United’s high-speed style has been ‘hiding’ for several years and has ‘just’ been rediscovered, but you still manage to criticize Berba for slowing down play he hasn’t participated in yet. This does not compute Like I said, It would be interesting to see how Berba would fare with the quality of service our front men our now getting.
Next:
“…Dimmy’s not going to get “serious game time” unless there are injuries to the three guys ahead of him (TheWayneBoy, Chicharito, and Danny Welbeck) which is what I wrote and why I speculated that he was being kept on as insurance.
If you are correct about Berba just being kept on as insurance you’d better hope that your analysis of his abilities are wrong, for as sure as night is day one or all of our strikers at some point or another will suffer injury, loss or form or both.
Finally:
‘Wall passes’…WTF!
We won’t be playing the likes of Bolton and WBA every week. Just have a look at last week’s game against Benfica. It cried out for someone upfront who could hold up the ball and do something different given the lack of service from M/F. Rooney? Ineffectual. At the highest level, Wayne again demonstrated that he cannot play effectively upfront as lone striker or handle man marking. That doesn’t make him shit –it’s just not his particular skill-set. Berba has proven ability at club and international level of doing just that.
I won’t comment on the Messiah bit as it’s throwaway nonsense.
Mr C – I wrote a long, convoluted reply to your response but my internet connection failed and those pearls of wisdom are now lost in the ether beyond cyberspace. Suffice it to say, I disagreed with your arguments @ 20:04. Let’s just agree-to-disagree and see what happens over the next few months – will Dimmy continue on the bench or not ?
@ denton Fair enough. Let’s agree to disagree as we’re never going to agree on this. We both support United and want them to do well but clearly have wholly different views about the ethical, as well as the playing, dimension of the Berba / Rooney situation. It may sound corny, but the thing which distinguishes United from the likes of money-driven mercenary outfits like Chelski and City is our ethos or soul. not money. – great players, high standards, class football and a strong bonding between, fans, players and the club based on respect not money. I can’t help feeling that by giving in to Rooney on the ‘ambitiongate’ thing, followed hard by the treatment of Berbatov, we are compromising that ethos.