Following the weekly anti-Glazer protests, Sir Alex Ferguson has chosen to speak out about the fans’ disapproval.
“Everyone is entitled to their opinion and to express disapproval if they don’t like what they see around them,” said Ferguson. “I am not slow to express disapproval myself if there is something I don’t agree with – even in the boardroom with the directors. But once I walk out of that meeting I get on with my job as manager of the team. Some of our fans are clearly unhappy with the financial position but we mustn’t allow the situation to become divisive. We must remain loyal to the cause of Manchester United.”
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Off topic already, but just watched the end of the bitters game. I see they’re back to their classy best with the munich chants!!! Yeah, biggest and best club in World football…..don’t think so!!
GOD has spoken. Your wish shall be my command.
@mikekelly12
Yeah, King Eric mentioned that too. I hope we thrash them!
Just wondering, how would the talk about the debts affect the players, if at all. And would any of the players from the squad would willingly take a paycutt to help the club on their part?
We are remaining loyal to United as we always are. It’s loyalty to the owners that has never and will never happen.
LUHG
yep just heard that as well… classless…
Disgusting munich chants again. Have they noughing else 2 to sing about?
You’d have thought they were playing us the number of United chants!! Can’t wait for Wednesday! You can tell they’re worried.
bchilds … we can’t duck the issue Fergie’s comments raise. He’s effectively asking us to do what we allways say we do and that is “IN FERGIE WE TRUST”.
He’s saying he can work with the owners. That they have his support. That the protests are only going to hurt the club and begs us to get behind the team now we’ve reached the business end of the season. So what are you going to do?
I’m in LU – IGIT (Love United – In Fergie I Trust.)
pumped up 4 wednesday more than ever now
hmm.. i think the issue of the bond weren’t too bad actually. It’s at least give some space for the club to breath since the bond till 2017. In my opinion, i think MU still got the funds to buy players but it might not as much as we might thought about it because in order to pay all the debts MU must be success on the pitch so there will probably some funds from the owner for the manager to spent at new players.
Dave Mack – We all trust SAF in terms of running the team….but he isn’t going to openly slate his employers now is he. What happens when SAF decides to leave? Who would you put your trust in then? Would you trust them to bring in someone who isn’t going to bow to their needs? Just look what they did with the Buckaneers when their real estate business started floundering, they got rid of most of their top players, got rid of their most successful head coach and refused to use the money available to them to secure new players……WE ALL TRUST SAF, just not those fuckers!
Agree with Dave Mack. We should listen to the man who knows best and get behind the team at this crucial time of the season.
I will always support United and the team, I will be singing United songs on Wednesday but I will also be firmly behind the LUHG campaign.
United!
mikekelly … here’s my problem with what you say. Do you honestly believe we know more about this than SAF? It’s not that Fergie’s just saying don’t protest …. he continues to openly support the Glazers saying they have been “terrific” owners and that they have “given him everything he’s asked for”. So if you think he’s just covering up for them, knowing that they are killing the club he has done more to build than anyone since Sir Matt…. then how can you say you trust him?
If Fergie comes out against them …. I will be on the streets and will not renew my season tickets until they are gone.
Until that time …… In Fergie I Trust.
LU – IFIT
Dave Mack – I hear what you’re saying, I really do, and you’re right, of course he’s going to know more about this than we do and no, I don’t think he’d stand by and see the club run into the ground. However, nor do we know what assurances SAF has had from this family or if they have been completely honest with him or us. Did SAF not say that he had the £80m to spend but didn’t see any value in the market! (A change of stance from the Berbatov deal!) Now the accounts have been revieled we see that SAF didn’t have the £80m to spend!!! Who was that untruth down to? Can you not see that the only reason the Glazers are here is because we are a money making machine. But the money WE are making them is paying THEIR personal debt and high standard of living. It is NOT coming back into the club. £64m which could have come back into the club and to go towards players we need is now going towards a debt which we never had!!!
I’m sorry, Sir Alex, but you’re way off beam here.
We all love the team and want to win every trophy that’s going. But there’s a much bigger battle going on now – for the very soul of the club.
We listened to Fergie, trusted him even, when he said the Glazers were good for United. And we were delivered the most glittering of prizes. We started to question him, though, when he uttered the nonsense about there not being ‘value’ in the transfer market. I mean, when has that ever been a deterrent to United, considering how we’ve paid over the odds for just about every player we’ve ever bought, right up to that ridiculous fee for Berbatov? Did no-one else see the irony in his ‘no value’ claim after he had set that record-shattering £80m fee for Ronaldo?
We finally realised the full extent of the crisis when they came out with that pathetic and totally unconvincing reason for not signing Ljajic.
It’s been easy to dismiss all the negative publicity as anti-United feeling within the media being driven by ABUs. But it’s fast becoming clear that the newspapers have been telling us the truth all along. We were warned about the Glazers but we chose not to listen, then kidded ourselves on that all was well after 3 titles and a European Cup.
For Fergie to suggest that United is bigger than the fans shows just how out of touch he has become – sad, really, for a man who so often shows the common touch. Without the fans there would be no Manchester United.
In fact, what yesterday’s protest illustrated is that Fergie, Gill and Co are totally out of touch with just how angry the fans have become. And that protest and anger will continue to grow. We are not stupid. We have read the reports AND analysed the bonds document which lays it out in black and white just how bad things have become and just how much the Glazers have taken out of the club, and that they will continue to bleed us until we are dry. We now know the truth.
If we don’t win any silverware this season it will not be the fault of the fans. It will be down to a management policy that sees assets being stripped away from the club by American imperialists who care nothing for the people who created that asset in the first place.
We must fight for our club now. And the RoM website could make a start by changing its colours to green and gold.
We must hit the Glazers where it will hurt most. I agree with the 10-15 minute boycott, but I’d do it at a game being televised by ESPN, another group of Americans feeding off English football. That will give us maximum publicity.
I advocate that, as the Glazers are banking heavily on other spending within Old Trafford, fans should totally boycott the hospitality services as well as the bars in the stadium. Not just that, ‘picket’ those outlets to make sure the tourist fans don’t spend any money inside either.
Further, we are due new shirts next season with another American sponsor’s name on them. We should simply refuse to buy any – I know under the terms of the Nike deal that wouldn’t affect United too much, but it would ensure the sponsors don’t get as much advertising as they had been hoping for. Not just that we should boycott the products of the other club sponsors, and notify those sponsors why we are doing it: so they can apply pressure to help us rid ourselves of the Glazers.
We can escalate the action by then notifying UEFA that we will be urging our fans to boycott all the Champions League sponsors – and as there are supposedly 400milion-plus of us, those companies will surely take notice. Again, tell them why.
Peaceful, co-ordinated protest – like the brilliant green-and-gold campaign – will ultimately earn its reward. But we must be patient, and we must not waver. The prize we are fighting for is greater than any Premier League trophy or European Cup. The prize we are fighting for is Manchester United itself.
I trust that Sir Alex will do anything in his power to keep the ship steady. And the Glazers have been terrific. With him though. Not with the debts they have piled on the club. No one doubts Fergie’s loyalty. But the fact is, he won’t be at the club if (or when) things begin to get ugly with our finances.
I don’t want protests to disrupt our season either, but what are we supposed to do? Shut up about the Glazers? If they don’t get the message now, the next step could be a reduced demand for season tickets that could mean plenty of empty sits at OT next season.
Honestly guys, I don’t know what’s right in all this. I don’t like turmoil within our club or our supporters.
Let me say first and foremost “in Fergie I trust” however is SAF refusing to admit / acknowledge that we have a debt (I cant remember hearing or reading anything from him were he acknowledges that we have dept)
Hopefully he’s aware the fans have a massive issue around the Glazers and the debt.
Yes he’s right to call for us to support the team but he must see the shortcomings in the team that we the fans can see and if it were not for the debt I’m sure we would have added to our squad to address these shortcomings
I dont think Fergie likes the Glazers just he fears for his job if he doesnt back them. You cant blame it on Fergie!
Dave Mack you’re a real loyalist and credit to you for that but Mike Kelly has my vote.
It’s not that I don’t trust SAF, he has been peerless for decades RUNNING THE TEAM. It’s the Owners I don’t trust and never will; no love of the Club, no love of the game even, just love of money.
Every era comes to an end and I’m afraid that I see this latest intervention by SAF as a sign that his judement isn’t quite as sharp as it was. Mind you, there is a case for him to stay until the Grabbers have gone but then he needs to bow out gracefully and see a world class, intelligent, young driving man in his place. He will always be a legend and it would be a shame to diminish that by staying on too long.
“This is not about stifling criticism; it’s simply a plea to stand together rather than take action that will damage ourselves more than anyone else. Manchester United is bigger than me, the players, the directors, officials, and the fans, and at this critical stage of our season particularly we need to pull in the same direction. It would be a shame to lose our concentration now because I can really see light at the end of the tunnel as we ready ourselves to push for the championship.” Programme notes, 23 January
Yes SAF, United is bigger than even you who made 7 league titles in our entire history 18 league titles, because one day very soon you will be gone, and we will have to fight Chelsea, Arsenal, Mansour, Madrid, Barcelona, Milan, Cesspool and the rest without you. And without the funds to allow your successor to remotely function properly in the transfer market.
“There is absolutely no issue at all with the club’s finances.” Press conference, 8 January
The blind loyalists buy that line; the rest of us understand SAF can’t tell it like it is because then the 3 players we’ve got who could walk into any team in the world – Evra, Vidic and Rooney – would leave. But it doesn’t change the truth: Glazer is killing our club, just like he did Tampa Bay – the bond issue frees him from covenants which legally limited his ability to take money out, now there is nothing at all to stop him – let alone the money being drained away on vast fees for the exact same kind of deal makers who brought you Lehman Brothers and RBS.
When set against the long term health of the club, I couldn’t give a fuck what we win in the next 2 seasons or so before SAF retires and neither should any supporter with a brain in their head. This is Leeds multiplied to infinity and it is happening right here right now. We have to make the club un-ownable for Glazer. Mass sustained disobedience.
… by the way can anyone briefly explain this new rule that UEFA are bringing in about champions league clubs and debt, I heard that clubs with a high amount of debt wont be able to compete in the champions league?
Tony Starks I think its along the lines as not being allowed to spend more than the club brings in. Not sure how current debt affects this?
I 100% agree with MK Red. Fergie has brought us joy more than we could have ever dreamt of, but sadly his legacy will be tainted with his arselicking of the glazers. I accept he can’t openly critiscise them but his silence could be deafening. We are now in the crazy position that the only way to get these bloodsuckers to sell is reduce the value of their ‘asset’ by 1. Not renewing season tickets. They will not be able to resell as there is now no waiting list. There was empty seats against hull and semi tickets against city are on general sale. 2. Refuse to purchase ANY merchandise whatsoever. 3. Anyone stupid enough to subsribe to MUTV should cancel immediately. If there are thousands of empty seats this will be the most powerful message. Whilst they get 76000 every home game they will think they can bleed us dry. I know these measures will affect our great team in the short term and it will be painful but we must look at the long term or there simply will be no United.
Tony it is something that Platini is threatening to bring in. Basically if you live outside of your means and operate in the red then you would be disqualified from entering.
It could never happen imagine the champs league without United, Chelsea, Real Madrid, AC milan, Juventus, Liverpool ( if they finsish 4th haha) etc?
These could teams would start the breakaway G16 and other clubs would follow.
Who want want to see City V Lyon in the final hahahah it would be like darts all the shit team in the BDO and the world class ones in the PDC.
Fuck u glazer cunts . Bak to America with u yank wankers . Fans shud buy them out …
So that battle lines are drawn.
It appears many of you think Fergie’s lying to keep his job and coat his pockets or is past his “sell by date”. Either way your in the camp that says “FERGUSON CAN’T BE TRUSTED”
I believe this club and it’s supporters owe a debt of loyalty to our Manager of twenty years and the most succesful manager in our or any clubs history. As much as you might want to “stick it to the man” your actions only bring discredit to this great club and will more quickly hasten it’s demise than anything you think your protecting it from.
“LOVE UNITED – IN FERGIE I TRUST”
Steve99 – you are a complete tool, fergie is not sucking up to the glazers you idiot he is managing united because he loves united, ferguson is not tainting his legasy. Also fergie is keeping it together you want to really get your message accros you should start marching to head quaters of the FA and premier league, thats where the buck stops not fergie. Because those freeloaders are not going to take notice
“Tony Lloyd, Labour MP for Manchester Central, is expected to put down an early-day motion in the House of Commons this week raising concerns over the indebtedness of English football and the ownership structure of clubs such as United” Mail on Sunday today.
Does anyone know what this motion is suggesting exactly?
We have massive amounts of debt in the middle of a financial recession in which credit is at a premium. It doesn’t take a genius to see a £500,000,000 bond still isn’t our money, and is just another way of calling it debt. There will come a day when the draw of premier league will wane, maybe only for a short time, but we will then be in a horrendous position.
I think the only reason Fergie supported the glazers is because when it comes to transfers it was easier to buy than a plc. Less leaks and less shareholders to convince. However thats all well and good if theres money and no debt. We all know that isn’t the case. This new bond issue is just a delaying tactic. We got 7 years in the wilderness of wondering what going to happen. I just can’t see United having nearly £800 million in the bank in 7 years. From my understanding the interest rates are £45 million a year so that another £300 million on top of the £500 million worth of bonds not to mention the glazers own pik loans that they are using the club for. Not one straight answer and plenty of scope for doubt left around by these parasites.
@Dave Mack
Sorry mate, but both camps draw battle lines. Why do we have to make this about Ferguson? In my opinion it’s wrong to connect Ferguson with the Glazers whether we are against them or with them. He has called them terrific owners, but they way I look at it, he refered to how they treat him. Not the club as a whole. It’s not about trusting Fergie or not. He will go about his own business, win us a couple more trophies and bow out over the next couple of years. He won’t be here when things get bad, so in a way, it’s not his problem. I don’t believe that Fergie will retire at the age of 70 and worry a great deal what happens with us. And to be perfectly honest, he will have earned that right.
But we have to look at the bigger picture, because the club will go on after Sir Alex has retired.
This is no longer a debate about the implications of how the “global enterprise” which was once just a football club is financed. (Jake, shares, bonds, bank loans are all forms of debt to the balance sheet.) It’s about what we do or not do to try fix it without hurting MUFC. If we stop suporting the club we may help football in the long run but it will be at MUFC’s expense.
@Rooney etc is dead on. Whether we like it or not the Glazers came up with a great way (for them) to buy United. If the F.A. permitted it can you really blame them? What’s preventing the next owners doing the same thing? Fergie’s a realist. These owners are supporting him and letting him get on with his job.
Fergie’s asking us to do the same thing.
LU – IFIT
“Everyone is entitled to their opinion and to express disapproval if they don’t like what they see around them” – Awfully kind of Fergie to concur.
A lot of United fans (that was the majority of the ground) used that option to express their disapproval with off-pitch matters. Long may it last.
If questioning and demonstrating in the name of the club’s future is perceived to be disloyal, it would be a sorry state of affairs.
Munich chants were to be expected from that bitter, obsessed lot. they also sang:
This city is ours,
This city is oooooours,
Fuck off back to London,
This city is ours.
Let’s ram it back down their throats if they start it up on Wednesday:
Stockport is yours,
Stockport is yoooooours,
You’re more than welcome to it,
Stockport is yours.
Costas … Sorry mate but how can it not be about Fergie? Scott’s blog is really all about the fact that our manager isn’t prepared to sit on the fence (when did he ever?!) He’s come out in support of the owners and has asked us not to take action that will be divisive, hurt the teams chances of success on the pitch and ultimately harm the club.
Just read some of the posts on this and other sites and think about the rumour that’s going round re a protest at Carrington tomorrow? Do you think that will help the players focus on the City match?
He’s not asking anyone to change their opinion. Wear green and gold if it makes you feel like your sticking it to the man but get behind the players and support the manager in trying to do his job.
Just a note about empty seats at Old Trafford – they are multiplying at an alarming rate as the Glazers pricing policy bites deep into working class reds pockets. At the Hull game there were 8 empty in our row, 7 in the row in front & only 5 people sitting in the row in front of that. The Glazers have fleeced us to breaking point especially with the ACS & none of that has been reinvested in the club.
Those of you who say we should just sit back & say nothing must have very deep pockets – consider yourselves very lucky that losing that amount of cash does not make you sick to the stomach with the Glazers.
This is not about trusting or not trusting SAF – this is about watching your life long love being torn apart by people with no feeling for MUFC at all. I would expect the truth will come out in clear black & white when SAF has gone & writes his next book/chapters to his autobiography. While he is manager he has to back the Glazers to maintain stability at the club but I’m sure it’s killing him inside & I’m sure we’ll hear about it sooner or later
And by the way – everyone of us backing the green & gold campaign is after the Glazers… NOT undermining the manager or the team.
Got to say I am somewhere inbetween but more towards Dave Mack.
As for Fergie’s judgement he is as sharp as ever.
Fergie is stuck in a very difficult position, and there really isn’t a “right” move to be made. What would we have him do, promote open rebellion ? Ask the players not to take to the pitch ? Having said that, his only option is to let things go as they are, for the time being. Will, things get better with the bonds ? As Ronaldo once said, “only God knows {my} the future.” Unfortunately, we have to be patient and wait things out. The fact that he commented on this issue means that the message is getting to them (which is good). Finally, this isn’t about Fergie. It’s about the fans.
@Dave Mack.
I just don’t agree with asking anti-Glazer protesters whether they trust Sir Alex or not. That’s why I said it’s not about Ferguson. Sir Alex hasn’t supported them completely in my eyes. That is evident by his quote about saying things in the boardroom and leaving them there. I don’t see Fergie either as the Glazers’ lacky or a socialist who will lead a campaign to drive them out of the club. He justs wants to focus on his job. And he has that right.
I am not in favor of the Glazers, but I don’t want us to become divisive either. Trust me, I have seen it happen to other teams in Greece and it’s the worst feeling. Finger pointing towards each other or Ferguson won’t get us anywhere. When Scott told us that MUST were thinking about ways to protest, I said “anything that won’t affect the team”. I don’t know if a protest at Carrington will affect the players. But something must be done and we can’t only look at this short term, because we lost close to 5 years like that.
I will just say one thing. At Old Trafford and in crucial times for the team, lets chant “United” and nothing else. What about a season tickets’ boycott for next season Dave? Would you consider that going against Fergie’s wishes? I am in a dilemma about this myself.
to question ferguson in all this is shocking..i dont agree with his stance but the man is beyond reproach..talk about tainting his reputation or sucking up to the glazers is the biggest load of rubbish i’ve ever heard..SAF is a legend & will bow out as a legend..NO MATTER WHAT
i’m jus as worried as the rest of you regarding the financial situation but i’m not sure about the short term pain long term gain thing..i’m afraid it might hasten any financial meltdown..if the glazers havent left till now i’m not so sure they’re gonna leave so soon..they’ll jus stick to not watchin any matches
Why does there have to be divisions? Why, in Dave Mack’s words, are fans “dissidents” merely because they’re discontent with how dire the club’s finances are?
Since the first whispers of the Green & Gold campaign, I’ve never spoke of those participating as a select group, and certainly haven’t negatively differentiated between those taking part and those who won’t. No, fans don’t have to protest. That’s their prerogative.
Fans can persist with this and show their loyalty to the club at the same time. To suggest we’re irrevocably aligned to one side is ludicrous.
As for the notion that our efforts are undermining the club, that’s merely an assumption. How can we conclusively state that it’s having such an effect after only one game? We’ve been stuttering on the pitch all season, so it’s complete fiction to suggest that anything untoward has manifested.
@john ferry
like ronaldo ONCE said?!?! try a million & one times..oor every time he got asked the madrid ques
Have to laugh at all the attempts to take Fergie out of the issue! If Fergie wanted to stay out of the issue he wouldn’t have spoken out against the protests. Fergie’s in the very centre of this issue!
The posts that say “to hell with Fergie” are at least being honest with us and themselves. What gets me are those that say “In Fergie We Trust” and then make statements that show they clearly don’t trust him!!
BTW, for me wearing green and gold is o.k.You’ll never see me or my friends wear it but let’s keep our voices behind the team and support the manager so he can get the players to focus on the critical games ahead.
LU – IFIT
“The posts that say “to hell with Fergie” are at least being honest with us and themselves. What gets me are those that say “In Fergie We Trust” and then make statements that show they clearly don’t trust him!!”
Hehe! Apparently! You talk so much shit it’s unbelievable.
Costas … as hard as it would be …. I would not renew my season ticket (nor do I believe my son or my friends would) if Fegie made a comment that clearly said the clubs ownership was negatively impacting his ability to bring long term success to the club.
While Fergie supports or even tolerates them he’s got my vote. If that changes I vote with my feet and my cheque book!
LU – IFIT
The one thing we scousers and you Manc scum have in common is the owernership of the clubs we love, its not a love of $ or £ its a birthright, lets unite on this issue
Bebeto … you don’t like me and it’s really upsetting me.
BTW Inter 2 – 0 up with 5 mins left. AC had a man advantage since the 20 min. (Wesely Scjhider – ironic clapping of the ref!)
Inter now down to nine men! Ronladiho just missed a penalty.
Dave Mack, your sarcasm’s only further indicative of you being a cunt, but nevermind. Not much we can do for you.
Your not United if you don’t trust Fergie! Hehe!
@Dave Mack
Fair enough. We will all have different approaches on the matter. I just hope we don’t end up turning against each other.
Milan did a lot of huffing and puffing over the last 2 months to get close to Inter. If Inter won this by 9 men, I think it shows who has the biggest character in Italy at the momet. And unfortunately for us, this could mean AC Milan focusing on the Ch.League a lot more now. I don’t see them surpassing INter now.
I agree I think AC’s two matches with us are going to be their whole season now.
Its simple:
We all love United & Fergie but the FACTS (as Rafa would say) remain those Bastards havent paid a penny off the debt in 5 years and av actually increased it by £250million, the only way to drive them out is boycott season tickets & merchandising. Fergie has just asked us to support the team but thats a given…. lets keep up the fight (from within) to get our club back.
Three months ago we were a club with debt. Thanks to the media, today we are a club in turmoil with a lot of debt. Inevitably, this will affect the players and their performances.
I honestly believe that we have been taken for a ride by the media. I don’t want to go into accounting or financing principles here and I certainly don’t want to offend anyone. But the truth is that a lot of the financial reasoning on this blog and many others show little or no knowledge of what is going on, from a financial point of view. The blog entry from an external contributor a few weeks ago is more or less accurate though.
When making a leveraged buy ouy like this you always run the risk of ending up not being able to finance your interest payments (this is mainly a cash flow problem, though). A deep recession is then your worst nightmare. Recession ordinarily means lower sales, which means lower inbound cash flow. When a company goes bust it’s usually because they have no cash to pay for their debts (I have to mention that it is possible to have a positive cash flow while showing a loss). This is not a problem for us. Our cash flow is still strong despite having gone through the worst recession since the thirties.
However, I think most of us feel uncomfortable with the fact that we have owners that bought the club for business reasons only. This is what I believe is the main reason why we act the way we do. But what are the options? No-one is talking about what should come after the Glazers is we manage to get rid of them.
Another ownership that comes in for the same reasons as the Glazers will act the same way. A sugar daddy type of ownership, in the mould of Abramovich or the Sheiks of Shitty, is good but only as long as they feel like staying. The problem though is that this type of ownership does not care about building financially sound organisations so when they leave all hell could break loose. Although the Glazers are in it for the money I believe they want to sell the club with a profit. This won’t happen unless the club is financially stable (well, a sugar daddy might buy anyway).
So what do you think? Who should buy the club after the Glazers leave?
Have just watched the fascists. Although Ronaldo got 2 goals, one a cracker I have to say he looks fucked off playing for them. This isn’t bitterness but an observation. He doesn’t look to have that sparkle in his eye, he doesn’t have the rapport with players he had with Rooney and co and for the second time in 3 short months or so he was sent off . He flicked back with an elbow and caught the Malaga lad. His mouth and nose were bleeding. Straight red. What struck me is that when he walked past Pellegrini there was no eye contact whatsoever. Fergie would have put a caring arm around him and that is the difference. Reckon he really does miss Fergie, the lads, the fans above all else and United.
Thank fuck Fergie didn’t spunk 35 million on Benzema. The fat cunt looks a stone over weight.
Ivory Coast out of ACN…
@Yergen ….great post.
I think we all agree that the ownership structure is less than idle but doubt there’s much consensus re the alternative or what to do about it. My thinking is that the Glazers exit strategy is a public offering when the global economy eventual rebounds. What do you think of that?
@King Eric … tend to agree with you re Ronaldo and definately agree with you regards that slow bastard Benzema!! 35m and 175k per week LOL
The one thing the protest did on Saturday was provide the best atmoshpere against lower opposition in ages. The more noise the better and the more green and gold the better. The ACS/the ticket prices/the lack of discount (City fans paid £12 for the same game we paid £40 in the earlier round of the league cup) and most of all the sheer arraogance of statments saying we can put prices up in a recession and if you don’t buy the ticket someone else will are all reasons to want those idiots out and let everyone know that’s what we want to achieve. PS As for someone else having your ticket – Not any more they won’t. The derby only sold out this weekend (66K tickets been on sale for ages in a local derby semi final!!!!)
SO get ordering yer green/gold bar scarf and twirl the fucking thing round yer head whilst singing Viva United – Won’t give up the fight till Glazers out of sight – Viva United
Cristiano is a weird train as they say in my country. He might be unhappy, but he will still deliver the goods. But there will come a time in the game where he will lash out.
What can I say? I want the lad to be happy in his life because I can’t erase the 6 years I liked him. But it’s obvious that he didn’t know what he was getting into.
Fergies comments just contradict each other as the plea went on… The fans are bigger than the club? WE ARE THE CLUB! we need to be loyal? loyal to what? filling glazers pocket! FUCK OFF…
I don’t know about you guys, but from reading this I get the feeling he wants to say more about it, but can’t. His tounge is bound by Glazer.
Just saw the goals and truly, Ronaldo’s second goal fantastic.
@SteniS
Kind of got that impression myself.
Off topic, but why does Robinho want to quit City? They are about to become the MASSIVEST (TM) club in the world! (i know that isn’t a word, lol)
I’m sure we’ll find out what SAF really thinks about the owners in a future update to his autobiography. In the meantime, let’s not make silly statements like “he’s obviously fearing for his job” and get 100% behind the team for the whole game in a positive manner. Leave the hate outside the stadium.
And as for some of the commentary and chanting around wanting the owners dead (or much worse in some cases) – please. Listen to yourself and show some class. There are kids present at the games and some it is beyond the pale. How can anyone complain about the filth City and other teams’ so called supporters spew, then come out with that? Hypocrisy anyone?
Anyway. I’ve asked the question before and never got a proper answer. What do you mean by “retake” the club? Have the fans ever owned it in the modern era?
In my lifetime – Edwards Family, Plc, Glazer Family. Have I missed something?
And I’m sorry, but is G&G not just a license to print money for the street vendors, with none of it finding it’s way back into the coffers of the IMUSA or MUST. Great.
See you on Wednesday night in Red, White and Black.
i totally agree with u olesrightfoot! lets get those scarves flying high and let them glaziers yankers know how we feel! we are UNITED , NOT some fkcin usa baseball or netball team. i know SAF has told(advised)us not to go on about the massive debt BUT , if i recollect, HE had something to do with it didnt he? i.e. upsetting the major shareholders the irish racing pair the magniers (i think) by welching on some horse racing deal involving the horse rock of gibraltar. this upset them so much that they bought more and more shares to get SAF out, but eventually SOLDOUT to the glaziers, who , as we all know have just milked our club to some tune., hence the fkcin HUGE DEBT we are saddled with and the inability to sign any decent players to fill in the gaps of our ‘dads army’ of scholes, giggs, neville and dare i say it, owen.
anyway, rant over.
CANT FKCIN WAIT FOR WEDNESDAY!!!!!
Yergen – good post. Last thing we want is a sugar daddy. All of our success in the PL era has come through being a well run BUSINESS. Generating income through shrewd sponsorship deals, stadium expansion and by sticking largely to sensible salary structures.
I don’t want success at any cost. I don’t want to buy trophies – like the Chavs did and City are desperate to emulate. I want it through being a well run club from top to bottom, attracting new investment and sponsors…
Oh hang on. Isn’t that what we already are? What were we complaining about again?
I honestly think that making Fergie a scapegoat for what is a boardroom issue is a bit naive. Yes he could speak out but honestly what will that achieve? The power is with the owners and it always will be. Asking Fergie to resign or to suggest he isn’t loyal to United is just narrow minded. The fans should continue to make the name of Manchester United proud and strong and all this back stabbing does is make our rivals laugh and make the name of Manchester United a laughing stock. All United fans should stick together and continue to support United in the same way as they always have. There are lots of ways to show your dissatisfaction (such as attending games and chanting or protesting before games) but to suggest that people return their season tickets or stop attending games goes against everything that supporting your club is about. I honestly believe that the best way to rid the owners is to make as much noise as possible in the one place that gets the most attention….Old Trafford. Show the bitters and the dippers that United fans don’t get divided and we are what we are…Manchester United.
Come on lads. We really need to get behind the lads now more than ever. Every fucker is writing our demise. Now this fat cockney cunt:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1245761/MARTIN-SAMUEL-Once-red-red-It-s-sure-thing-Wayne-Rooney.html
@ Yergen, Paul H and Dave Mack… thanks for your posts and for bringing back some sanity to the ownership discussion.
Costas – Just read that cunt Pier’s Morgan’s outburst on Nev. Who the fuck does the prick think he is? Saying “Neville is all that is WRONG about United these days”. What the fuck is that supposed to mean? What makes them this fucking bitter. Are they really that jealous of United. I bet that rosy faced eton fag was cheering Ingerlund on in years gone by when Nev was playing out his skin for them. He is still better than Johnson and any other cunt they may have there. Reckons he was walking round Manc with a placard round his neck saying “Arsenal are top of the league”. Sorry Pier’s didn’t realise you got a trophy in January thought the winners were crowned in May. Arsenal will bottle the coming weeks as per usual. You could see they weren’t up for a scrap at Stoke today. They still have to go there in the league. Even Lineker is saying they deserve it as Wenger is the only manager who builds teams with Kids etc. Yeah no mention of the fact Fergie has actually won titles with young ones. Wenger has won fuck all for nearly 6 years. We have to win number 19 as in all my years of supporting United I have never know the ABU’s out in so much force as this season. It will be the sweetest one yet.
Sorry about the rant I just get so angry.
darrenrichie – Spot on mate.
Cheers King Eric. Got to say I agree with what you say about Ronaldo, he just doesn’t look the same as he did with us. For a while now I have thought that he looks like he is regreting his move. Real can sell him back to us…..lets say for a third of what we sold him for
Oh and Piers Morgan is a cunt.
@King Eric
I was wondering whether he were going to give in to temptation or not! I told you, it wasn’t pretty! As I said yesterday, a lot of this bitterness stems from the pain United have caused him and many others in several parts of their anatomy.
Wenger made a choice today. He could have had a real go at the FA cup this season and he would have equalled Man United’s FA cup record in the process. He chose the Premier League. It’s a risk. They have a tough months ahead and United are getting players back now.
I want the 19th as much as you. I just feel that it could be the toughest championship SAF has ever won. The loss of Ronaldo notwithstanding, SAF has had a 20th team to play against. His medical team!
I actually gave up on “pundits” and “experts” during the 02-03 season. If they could call a Man United team featuring Beckham, Scholes, Keane, Giggs, Veron, Ruud, Ole and Forlan washed up and a crumbling empire, then it doesn’t surprise me what they are saying this season. No one liked a side that monopolises a league. Too bad we are not done just yet.
I don’t think Fergie was having a pop at the fans he actually said everyone’s entitled to their opinion and when he was asked if the atmosphere was full of ‘dissent’ on MUTV after the match he said no not against the team. I think Fergie point is simply that when its 0-0 and we need to pick up points the XI on the field need to hear something other than ‘love United and hate Glazer’ to encourage them.
I reckon we should come to an agreement that we only sing inspiring songs til we get a 2 goal cushion and then switch to LUHG.
Paul H strongly agree with both your posts.
No one likes to say it but we haven’t been a football “club” for many a year and never will be again. (Those that want to be part of a football club FC United’s your best bet.)
Those that are leading these protests probably also protested against Edwards, the get Fergie out campaigns (remember them?!) BSkyB, going public, McManus and Magnier etc etc. But the fans can’t own the club. They can only hope they have ownership that is sympathetic towards them. (Like if a Fergie with about 50 Billion!)
We attracted a lot of new investment and new sponsors this week because we’ve got a great history, a great team, a great manager and obviosily as far as the new investors are concerned ….a great future. (That is, in my opinion, if we stick to football matters and back the team and the manager !!)
LU – IFIT
maybe our best hope is that the economy picks up quickly before so much debt gets put against the club that no1 will want to buy it. Or even that their property empire starts makin money so they dont drain as mch from us.
Mentioned previously, the empty seats on starday against Hull were the most apparent for ages. Walking to the ground, there were 3 or 4 ticket toutes walkin thru the crowd tryin to sell tickets. Been a while since I seen that
Football supporters unite against Glazer, Hicks and Gillettte these people are magotts that feed of suppoprters, as supporters its difficult to to protest without hurting the club we love, but we must let these carpetbaggers know that we do not want them rapeing our clubs as a scouser I would love to see you relegated (D Law back heel) but not because of finacial issues, this is a fight we must come together on and show a common solidarity like the bond between Busby and Shanks, both men of the people for the people. LIVERPOOL FC
@bob
I wish there was a way that could happen while we support our clubs. It’s annoying as hell knowing that United are still extremely profitable, but a big chunk of the profits goes to the debt the Glazers’ created.
Why did Abramovich or them rich Arabs not buy Us back then?…….
Answer that smart arses……
Yip
The first thing we should do is to stop buying any offical merchandise hit the yanks in the pocket, maybe then they will understand that Liverpool FC and United are Football Clubs and not as they think FRANCHISES.
If Michael Knighton would have sucsessfu???? smart arse
TYPO would have been sucsessful
We must remain loyal to the cause of Manchester United.”
Seems to me that Fergies main worry is fans having divided loyalties and opinions and reading alot of the comments on here so do i.
We must stand side by side on this 1 voice 1 issue to oust the Glaziers.
Once a red always a red? It’s not a sure thing for Wayne Rooney
There is something strange happening around Wayne Rooney.
It is whispered that Manchester United have asked him to open talks on a new contract, but he is refusing to negotiate until after the World Cup. The club deny this, saying they are perfectly happy to wait until the summer, too. Yet the rumours persist.
http://www.nzurisana.com/forum/showthread.php?385-Once-a-red-always-a-red-Its-not-a-sure-thing-for-Wayne-Rooney&p=388#post388
Fans owe a massive debt to Wayne Rooney for reaching summit
A one-man team? That is a big question to ask, given that Manchester United, for all their flaws, sit proudly atop the Barclays Premier League this morning. Sir Alex Ferguson, naturally, would bristle at such a suggestion and Rio Ferdinand and Ryan Giggs, among others, might well consider it an insult.
http://www.nzurisana.com/forum/showthread.php?386-Fans-owe-a-massive-debt-to-Wayne-Rooney-for-reaching-summit&p=389#post389
I agree with Bob the Scouser. This issue affects all football supporters. United have been royally shafted but so have Liverpool, Portsmouth, Notts County, West Ham and many more clubs. I was proud of the demonstrations by our fans AND the demonstrations by Portsmouth fans on Saturday. We need to stand together. It would be hypocritical for United fans to vent their disgust at the Glazers but take great pleasure in what Hicks & Gillette are doing to Liverpool. Love United, hate Glazer. Love football, hate Glazer.
For those of you that haven’t seen it here’s the rest of Fergies program notes regarding the current situation.
One for all, and all for one… it’s a terrible cliché but nevertheless it does sum up one of the essentials for success in team sport. The family of Manchester United is under pressure as a result of all the issues and controversies surrounding the ownership and financial situation of our club that have been stirred up in the media.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and to express their disapproval if they don’t like what they see around them, just as it has always been the right of fans to let it be known if they are not happy with the way their team are playing. I’m not slow to express disapproval myself if there is something I don’t agree with, even in the boardroom with the directors, but once I walk out of the meeting I get on with my job as manager of the team.
Some of our fans are clearly unhappy with the financial position but we mustn’t allow the situation to become divisive. The danger as I see it is that we could be presented as being split, which would be harmful and inaccurate because I believe the vast majority of United fans are behind us and appreciate the importance of standing together in support of the team.
I could see our opponents rubbing their hands with glee at the thought of watching us fall out among ourselves if we don’t all think carefully about what we are doing. We must not lose our focus, which from where I stand is about building a strong football team that will win trophies. That’s what we are about, or at least should be.
We must remain loyal to the cause of Manchester United. The staff and players should be quite one-eyed about that and stay true to the history of the club and all the work done by Sir Matt Busby and the other managers who have contributed to creating the great club we have at Old Trafford today.
This is not about stifling criticism; it’s simply a plea to stand together rather than take action that will damage ourselves more than anyone else. Manchester United is bigger than me, the players, the directors, officials, and the fans, and at this critical stage of our season particularly we need to pull in the same direction. It would be a shame to lose our concentration now because I can really see light at the end of the tunnel as we ready ourselves to push for the championship
We must recognise that, and as I say, we will need to pull together, both on an off the field, if we are to mount a title charge
@mikekelly12
Its not quite as simple as you make out with Tampa Bay and certainly not the same as United.
For starters they bought the Buccs not as a Business like they did United but as a Vanity Project. Its more akin to what we saw at Chelsea and are seeing at City but in their case with more of a personal connection to the team they bought
Now they spent alot of money to get them to take what was pretty much a ‘nothing’ francise with no pedigree to Super Bowl champs. In Real Football terms it would be like a rich Arab buying a club like Burnley and taking them to win the EPL and then the Champions League.
The problem was winning the Super Bowl screwed them up. Much of the success came from the ‘Most Successful Head Coach’ that you are talking about who is called Jon Gruden. However he was the Head Coach for Oakland and to get him they not only had to pay $8million BUT more importantly had to give over a total of 4 draft picks (1st and 2nd in 2002. 1st in 2003, 2nd in 2004)
The season after the Superbowl there were then ‘managemnet’ issues when Gruden fell out with the General Manager McKay which disrupted the team. Much of the Buccs transformation was down to McKay but it got so bad that the Glazers had to allow McKay to leave.
There were also some serious issues with the players which included Keyshawn Johnson being suspended for misconduct which force the Buccs to trade him.
Since the Superbowl its been a mixed bag, they have won the divisional title twice since but have had some awful seasons too, although a couple of those have been due to being ravaged by injuries. They have also seen the Teams Management release well liked players but this isn’t the Glazers who have done it, its the General Manager and Head Coaches decision.
However the Fans have got a bit spoilt since the Glazer takeover, this is a relativly small team and they have done amazing things since the Glazers took over BUT they just aren’t a very marketable team despite alot being done to help this. As such they don’t make a great deal of money as a team and with the ecomomic relating to American Football and the number of players a team needs (They have around 60 players in an active rooster and then maybe another 30 in ‘reserve’) there is only so much money you are going to be willing to keep throwing at a team. And despite the Superbowl win the Fans were doing what United Fans are now doing and got on their backs so they have done what Abramavich has done a few times and basically fell out of love with the club they bought and ‘withdrew’ themselves somewhat. This is unlikely to happen at United no matter what the Fans do as its obviously not the same situation, united was bought as a business rather than a vanity project and the club can support itself without having to be held up by ‘Glazer Hand Outs’
Also lets be honest Manchester United is really to blame for the Buccs situation. The Glazers just don’t have the money to give handouts to the buccs, the profits they make have to be ‘put aside’ as part of the original business plan to pay off the debts
@mikekelly12 again
First of all lets be honest here Fergie and United DIDN’T think Berba was worth £30mill. United had the deal pretty much worked out for around £24mill until a Norweign Fan Site that was using a simerlar look to the official site posted a story about us Signing him. The Sun somehow got hold of it, reported it as an Offical Club site announcing it which then get Levy in a mood and made him dig his heels in and even report us (Liverpool are also to blame as Rafa tapping up Keane in more than 1 interview had made him being touchy on the subject of big clubs tapping up his players in the press)
We were still trying to get a deal around the £25mill mark on last day of the transfer window when suddenly the City takeover happened and City choose to Gazzump us. Having wasted all summer hammering out the deal we had to pay up or not have the additional striker the club needed. These clubs like Chelsea, City and Real that don’t have to worry about money are making it very hard to get value for money these days as they will just throw silly money at players (City are probally the worst as they are spending silly money on players who really arent that good which then raises the prices for everyone else on simerlar or better quality players), as a PLC it would be the same thing infact probally worse as every single action we took in the tranfer market would be known before we even formally took it.
And Secondarly the accounts show nothing of the sort that the money from Ronaldo isn’t available. As for the club making them money, the drawings they have made from the club are actually LESS than they would have been getting as a shareholder when we were a PLC, especially when 10mill of their takings are Director Loans which they have to pay back.
Most owners will however expect a return on their invetsment and they did sink around £275mill of their own cash into the buy out, then the money they borrowed through the PIK loans so its hardly unfair for them to expect a return at somepoint, just as the Shareholders as a PLC expected tens of millions to be paid to them each season in dividends
@MKRed
“We finally realised the full extent of the crisis when they came out with that pathetic and totally unconvincing reason for not signing Ljajic.”
What the reason the Home Office and United gave of him being denied a Work permit for the second time. When we signed Tosic we applied for a Work permit for Ljajic and even had fergie speak on his behalf but both the inital application and the “Exceptional Talent” appeal was rejected. So the deal was put off a year and we applied again and again it was turned down. The club had to pay up at this point or use the get out clause and quite rightly they tool the get out clause. It must have been felt that in the year he would have made more progress than he did and would have got his Work Permit and would have joined us in time to be able to qualify as Home Grown. He didn’t and he is unlikley to have passed in the summer either, so Jan 2011 or Summer 2011 would have been the soonest he could have joined us. Player we have paid for then had to wait years for a work permit have hadly been a success in the past as by the time they get them they have missed the formative years where they needed to be playing at a high level club
“We are not stupid” – Stange because the way people like youself let yourself get wound up by inaccurate reporting on finacial matters and the likes it suggest otherwise. I mean most of you who claim to have read the Bond Document insist that it states that the Training Ground, Staduim and players will be sold when it says nothing of the sort. Infact it says that World Class players need to be kept at the club and bought in and that spending on this is a neccesaity and will happen.
Oh and the fact that you and others are basically adovating taking actions that will not only DAMAGE the team playing (Which a 10-15min boycott will do) and will BANKRUPT the club by not spending money on the club further suggests that you and many others are actually stupid idiots who live in a dream world and are led by ABU media looking to destroy United
@lyndhurst red
He doesn’t need to acknowledge the debt unless it actually does impact him in a restrictive and unrealistic way which there is very little proof it does.
As Fans its easy for us to go all “Fantasy Football” but pretty much all managers have a budget they can spend rather than spending what they like and as long as its realsitic they have no reason to complain. Its for them to then work out where the value is to be spent. Additionally we have to remember that its not just the money side that impacts tranfers in but also Squad Management. Buy too many players in a position and you will upset the other players and you also have Squad limits in the Champions League and next Season the EPL which has to be taken into account. We already have about 4 ‘Senior’ players over the Champions League Squad size limit and with the same limit being in the EPL next season and some of the B list players not being B list eligible next season it means transfers have to be the right transfers on a number of factors
@irishredmufc
Do you seriously think Fergie is that bothered about his job that he would keep doing it with his hands tied behind his back, especially if it could mean ruining his legacy. Remember this is the guy who cancelled his retirement because his announcement disrupted the team and meant he would have gone out on a low.
The extent of the hostility towards the Glazer family’s controversial ownership of Manchester United was laid bare on Saturday when supporters ignored Sir Alex Ferguson’s plea to put aside their anger over the club’s financial predicament.
http://www.nzurisana.com/forum/showthread.php?387-Sir-Alex-Ferguson-warns-of-divisions-within-Manchester-United-over-Glazer-ownership&p=390#post390
@NotoriousRedDevil
The Interest however is being paid so the debt is only the £550mill that the Banks gave and which £505 is now in the bond issue
@mags the red
You have to be realistic though, with Clubs like City around you cant have any of this idealistic nonesense we see at FCUM where you “Pay what you want” for tickets. Match Day is where so much of a Football clubs income comes from and without maximising that (and lets be honest Ticket Prices are still alot cheaper at OT than many other EPL teams and certainly those that you would consider to be in a simerl level as United).
@mullar
The Debt hasn’t actually increased though, they have been paying the intrest.
As for not paying any of it back, as the Loans aren’t maturing there’s no need to pay them back. As myself and others have said before debt on your accounts isn’t always a bad thing as long as its being serviced and you have plans on how to pay it back when it matures. Alot of companies operate in ‘debt’ because the amount you save by making the repayments is less than can be made with the money elsewhere.
The Simple Fact is that on Day 1 the Glazers said they had a business plan that would service both the Bank Loans and the PIK’s and pay them off when it matures. They have £275million of their own money tied up in the club as well as the PIK loans attached to themeselves which threaten their WHOLE business empire and we need to stop treating them as Bumberling idiots without any sense and trust that they actually have a plan and know what they are doing. The amount they have made in business doesn’t suggest a group of bumberling idiots. Also the fact that the Bond Issue was such a success suggests that those in the know don’t see a business in trouble but one thats well run and a solid bet.
@Yergen
The biggest problem with Sugar Daddys isn’t the lack of Finacial plan but actually the fact that these kind of owners almost always decide to get ‘Hands On’ as its about personel glory. The Football people at a club should be the ones running the football side not the owners buying the players they want and even forcing team selection.
Anyone ‘Buying’ the club would have to either be a Sugar Daddy or a Business Man like the Glazers and they could be so much worse than the Glazers. IMHO though the ‘MUST’ type fans would hate both as they live in a deluded world where they think Fans should own the club and could do so better than anyone else and would be able to spend hundreds of millions on players while letting fans pay just £200 for a season ticket.
@Chris20LEGEND
Really the Fans are the club. Strange that I don’t recally you being the one who scored 4 on Saturday, or you being the one on the side picking the team, or you being the person running the club etc. As Fans we are part of the club and while we may be a major part we aren’t the only part. The club itself is bigger than its individual parts
Kia: Neville lacked respect and class
Agent Kia Joorabchian insists Carlos Tevez is not bitter towards Manchester United, but says Gary Neville showed a lack of “respect and class”.
http://www.nzurisana.com/forum/showthread.php?388-Kia-Neville-lacked-respect-and-class&p=391#post391
WAYNE Rooney is not just scoring for fun on the pitch, he is cleaning up in Hollywood too.
The Manchester United strike ace, 24, who banged in four goals at the weekend, is set to pocket £50,000 after investing in hit 3D movie Avatar.
http://www.nzurisana.com/forum/showthread.php?389-Wayne-rooney-strikes-gold-with-avatar-flick&p=392#post392
Hi guys
Just to let all those know of where we are at and those that don’t
di is working on a website that will begin the taking back of our club
I am working on a fans charter that again the two of us will oversee
We will leave a question to fans on the way to do it
But the initial plan has changed – we want more fans on board who can afford to buy a share at a lesser price
Also we have worked out that to do this we will need not 1 billion as first stated but 2 billion or close – everything shall be explained soon – please keep on checking the blogs
Again to those that are not familiar – myself and di have a plan in the works which roughly now looks like this
500,000 fans @ 1000pounds .5 billion
2 million fans @ 500 pounds 1 billion
500,000 fans @ 750 pounds 375,000,000
500,000 fans @ 250 pounds 125,000,000
It might change again but the principle doesn’t
The club is bought as a sentimental value
No one person can have more than one share
No share can be sold out for a profit to a future Glazer or Arab or for that matter any one else – the club will forever stay fan owned
No share can be sold for a profit
A share can be sold for it’s original purchase price to another fan who does not have one
If someone passes away – the share can move to another person in the family
All the above will be legal binding
Initially all we need to do is to have an intent – we need people to sign up and spread the message – this opportunity will come when the website is available soon
When the intent is complete everyone will be notified of the binding legal obligation of the fans charter and everyone will sign up to it knowing of what they are doing.
Money will be taken in an account that will be transparent and will be headed by a leading individual that everyone can trust.
Obviously we will need reds to come in who are accountants or solicitors etc to work on documents when we need them – this must be done for free
SAF will be in charge of the team affairs the CE will be in charge of the business side of things – we do not have a say in such matters – however if there is a concern we do have a right to speak with the management – that will be written up in due course.
Also every fan who has a share has a right to pay the club as a privilege member’s cost
for example (again only assumption numbers)
the 1000 pound share holders pay 100pounds each
the 750 pound share holders pay 75pounds each
the 500 pound share holders pay 50 pound each
the 250 pound share holders pay 25 pound each
A lottery will take place every year choosing fans to see that the club is being run correctly –
myself and di do not have any more rights than the right fan
the 250 pound fan is equal to the 1000 pound fan – we have different incomes and privileges and we cannot discriminate in any way
You lot could call this a fan bond – but a sentimental one
Also myself and di do not take nothing out of the club – just because we have started something doesn’t mean that we are here to milk the club – we just want to do something that will be the defining moment for our club and fans and a lesson to the rest of the footballing community that Manchester United will never die.
I have done my best to say what I wanted to say – there is a lot more to say so please wait for the website
Until then if anyone is interested – please email the following address and state your name and your intent to how much you would be willing to pay out of the above choices – as mentioned it is only an intent – but we need to start getting numbers together. You will be asked to transfer your details properly at a later date – again on the website
MG
email; MUFanAgenda@googlemail.com
The time for talking and demonstrating is over. Only money can make the Glazer’s walk. And please be mindful that they spent another 54 million out of the club paying to get the Bond going.
The only thing they want is money – so we will give them that – because at the end it will ave meant that we save our club.
Who’s on?
Glazer-plans-to-cost-Utd-54m
THE GLAZER family are planning to spend another £54million of Manchester United’s cash to fight their huge debt.
http://www.nzurisana.com/forum/showthread.php?391-Glazer-plans-to-cost-Utd-54m&p=394#post394
@Wakey
The Bonds were a success because Manchester United sells itself the world over.
That was not down to the Glazer’s more so to David Gill making sure the club was okay
They have 1/3 of their money tied up in the club
The PIKS which are a problem only to them will be paid off by what profits the club generates.
The Bonds should be addressed as debt to pay off debt but in a more relaxed manner, I believe that some 45m will have to be paid twice yearly which makes it easier for them to pay the PIKS and take more money for themselves.
You are right they had a business plan to fleece the club – the only good thing they have done unlike Hicks and Gillet is leave SAF to his job.
Yes fans should heed SAF advice
Fans should also begin to back off from the Glazer abuse – we know they are not United fans – we wouldn’t want them doing things to the club say sell the ground and training ground and lease them back.
The only way to play the Glazer’s is as mentioned above.
This fan takeover we are proposing is like no other and is more of a sentimental/business plan rather than a go gung ho on the club plan.
The charter will be a binding agreement btw the club and fans – the major points have been laid out to see – the plan is in it’s infancy but will be fool proof when finished.
Any thing is possible if everyone believes that we can all pull this off. Unfortunately as mentioned protests and marces etc are noble and are rightful if done peacefully – however the only equation that can solve this problem is money
MG – well this will be horrific the only way for fans to truly wake up to these freeloaders is if they sold rooney then we really will see a fans revolt. I dare the glazers to sell rooney I dare them then the excuses will be over.
King Eric – I cant stand that martin samuel he loves the glazers and belittles the club he is so desperate for united to fall, I will never forget his article in 2005 on uniteds crumbling empire.
@rooney the new king
don’t buy it mate – had enough of newspapers – I’ve only read two decent articles at the turn of the year on United
As mentioned Rooney would be the last one out of OT – the mob and Barca can dream on; his heart is here he’s English through and through and proud to be a United player
@Wakey … if you have a fan club I’d like to join it! Great posts!
It’s sad but so much harm is done by mis-information. The tabloid press has much to answer for. They’re willing to sensationalize to the point that they totally mislead people. On the other hand I’m wondering if the club need to do more to comminicate the commercial realities to a broader spectrum of fans but certainly to the 50,000 + season ticket holders.
I’m hoping Gill is going to come out with something this week. In the meantime we got you!!
LU – IFIT
MG – you found two decent articles in the media on united this year, by any chance did you see and find a lepricon and a unicorn
@MG
The Bonds didn’t sell because its “Manchester United” but because its a solid investment. The fact that they actually sold best in the States disproves any ‘sentimentality’ reasons for them selling well.
And the Glazers have hardly fleeced the club, £20million taken out before the bond in 5 years is less than was being paid in dividends as a PLC each year. And £10mill of that are loans which will come back into the club.
As for your plan, I can’t help but feel its all Pie in the Sky. I mean seriously do you really think you can find 3.5million people who can give you between £250 and £1000 which I’m assuming they will never see a penny of it back again (As you don’t mention anything about what happens to the profits so I’m assuming they stay in the club). And then if i’m reading it right which its late so I may not be you are then asking for a yearly contribution from said fans as well.
And thats just on the investment side, when it comes to logistics of how it will work its a mine field that could damage the club and even worse damage football as a whole
United to offer Rooney £40m new deal to ward off Barca and Real – Exclusive
http://www.nzurisana.com/forum/showthread.php?393-United-to-offer-Rooney-40m-new-deal-to-ward-off-Barca-and-Real-Exclusive&p=396#post396
@Dave Mack
The problem is even if they sent out a leaflet to every season ticket holder 99.9% would fail to understand what was in the leaflet. Then coupled with the ABU media looking to spin negative stories we would see everything taken out of context to make it look like the skys falling down.
After all that exactly what happened with the Bond Broacher where the media and then those fans who have an agenda or have just been scared by the previous reports pick up on things mentioned in the risk section and take it as an ‘action plan’ and then when it actually mentions anything about actual plans (Such as stating about 5 times that buying and keeping world class players is essential to success on and off the field)
Wayne rooney holds the key to further success for man utd
Everyone agreed Wayne Rooney holds the key to United’s challenge for yet more honours this season.
http://www.nzurisana.com/forum/showthread.php?394-Wayne-rooney-holds-the-key-to-further-success-for-man-utd&p=397#post397
Wakey – well for me every united fan should get the fit and proper test and use it has toilet paper because its a complete joke.
Right place, wrong time is the story of Van Nistelrooy’s unfulfilled career
Talking Football: He famously never scored a goal hit from outside the box for United, although that wrongly suggests he never scored spectacular goals
http://www.nzurisana.com/forum/showthread.php?395-Right-place-wrong-time-is-the-story-of-Van-Nistelrooy-s-unfulfilled-career&p=398#post398
wakey … there is no doubt that the complexities of running and financing a “global sporting enterprise” will not be easily comprehended by the average fan. Indeed the very use of the term “global sporting enterprise or even worse “franchise” is an anathema to a hard core of our support who still see MUFC as a “football club”. I also agree that the way the popular press exploited the prospectus disclosures was a disgrace.
But every commercial enterprise need to find a way to better communicate with it’s stake holders and there are few if any businesses that have stake holders as passionately involved with the enterprise than season ticket holders in English football or indeed ..supporters in general.
In my view communication from United is shallow, sparce and patronizing at best and any effort at raising the bar in this respect would be helpful.
This will pass. LU – IFIT
Who are you kidding, Fergie?
IT was a passing remark that got lost in Alex Ferguson’s broadside against both Carlos Tevez and the FA last Friday.
http://www.nzurisana.com/forum/showthread.php?396-Who-are-you-kidding-Fergie&p=400#post400
@Wakey
Cheers for the feedback
First of all with all due respect the club and the badge and the history sells itself – if it wouldn’t – forget selling the bonds we wouldn’t be selling anything United to anyone
We wouldn’t be the biggest club
We wouldn’t have the most fans
We wouldn’t have the attraction that we continually enjoy
If anything that has been down to the revival of the club by SAF not the Glazer’s. In part the Bonds sold because they are a sound investment for people in the present climate. Since most parts of the world are still in recession and as banks are getting seen to everywhere – it makes sense to take on something that will eventually pay a profit. Also to note those that took the bonds don’t care much of what the owners are doing to the club – as long as they get paid everything is just fine. And as the owner’s keep on taking away from the profit that the name of the club generates – again it’s just as okay for them too. What you are in effect saying is that that is fine as long as Manchester United is making money it is okay for non Manchester United fans or personnel who own the club to take as much money as possible in order for them to satisfy themselves. Ever wondered how better – stronger – more powerful we would be if the money the club was self generating actually stayed within Manchester United to be spent by the manager? Or alternatively to help lower any costs possible for the many fans that support United?
By the way the Glazer’s and the bankers, and the hedge fund managers, and the investors can only make money from Manchester United because of the power of the club – because of the might of the club – because of the pull of the club – without sounding rude and if so my apologies – get it?
I’m sorry that you don’t buy into what I’ve said. But we are going to give it a shot – again if fans feel so passionate about there club are you suggesting that such fans cannot make that leap of faith? And yes the whole objective is to pay the Glazer’s off and then continually pay a privilege membership fee per year – I am one person that is willing to do that for my club – if you don’t want to, you don’t have to, that doesn’t mean that I am superior to you in any way – as fans of this club we are all equal although our passions vary from time to time.
But it’s amazing – it’s easy for certain fans to assume that it’s okay for Manchester United to make money and let it go to people who just want to use it to make more money for themselves, yet you discount the possibility that so many United fans cannot get together and buy the club under a sentimental value – because the club means so much to them – because apparently as I think you put it it’s pie in the sky?
May I ask that do you agree with the Glazer’s giving away 300 million of Manchester United made money to banks and hedge funds since they took over as pie in the sky?
Do you agree that whilst the club bleeds money into these leech like institutions – that the Glazer’s find 20 million for themselves from Manchester United and take it as a loan on a favorable rate?
Do you not think that is pie in the sky?
Do you not think that since they are billionaires that there treatment of the biggest football club in the world is nothing short of a disgrace?
Would you not say that all this money is nothing short of a pie in the sky?
You do have my apologies, maybe like you it is late and I’m not coordinating properly.
But one thing is for sure – in SAF I trust – I just see the Glazer situation in another way. We agree to differ, difer to agree.
For Manchester United then
@Wakey
Further: now that you’ve kept me awake;
I maybe crazy – hell let’s use your analogy of being a pie in the sky but let me directly counter a certain observation you made.
There will be no financial return for those fans. But I tell you what though. They will have a piece of their own club for generations to come. They will tell stories that they were there when this went down. Father’s and sons and grandfathers, husbands and wives, mothers and daughters and grandmothers – brothers and sisters cousins uncles aunts – they will cherish sitting together knowing that the club will be forever safe.
And the biggest gain they will make? That United will become more powerful – that the youth system will forever cherish – that the manager will through the club and fans hard work and perseverance have no better opportunity at keeping the glorious name of this club going and to keep on aiming higher over and over again.
Like I said I might not be to your liking – I won’t be – but your assumption that this could somehow damage the club is downright disrespectful and out of order. You would therefore it seems accept the status quo of what we have presently? Funny that – explain to me as easily as possible how putting this great club in the hands of banks and hedge fund managers makes it any safer than putting it in the hands of fans who will be bound by a club/fan charter to protect it from where it is at today?
I know it’s a little late but your final comment on any fan willing to go out of there way to buy the club describing it as damaging was insulting.
Barcelona fans partly own there club and pay around 20 million per year for the privilege of owning it – hasn’t done them any harm has it?
Again apologies for telling the truth – not all fans want to kick up a fuss. I just want my club to be in control of itself. As SAF Manchester United is bigger than him, the Glazer’s, the fans…
All eyes were on returning Rio, all ears tuned to the demonstrations against the Glazer family but it was the breathtaking brilliance of Wayne Rooney which ensured Sir Alex Ferguson was granted his wish that the red half of Manchester remains United this week.
http://www.nzurisana.com/forum/showthread.php?398-Wayne-Rooney-is-just-FOURmidable&p=402#post402
Real Madrid could get Manchester United Wayne Rooney
Real Madrid have been watching carefully The Glazer family and have seen all the bad press they have been given and know full well that The Glazer family need money to sort out the debts and this is good news for Real
http://www.nzurisana.com/forum/showthread.php?399-Real-Madrid-could-get-Manchester-United-Wayne-Rooney&p=403#post403
Nani pleased with personal form in Man Utd win
Nani was pleased with his contribution in Manchester United’s 4-0 drubbing of Hull City.
Nani produced possibly his best display since joining the Red Devils for £17million from Sporting Lisbon in 2007, creating Wayne Rooney’s second and third goals before substitute Dimitar Berbatov set up a fourth.
“I am happy with my performance,” said Nani.
“It was good to create the goals for Wayne because he is such a fantastic player.
“When you see your striker score four goals it gives us all confidence because we know we have someone who can score every game.”
Manchester United Manager leave the Glazer family alone
Manchester United Manager Sir Alex Ferguson has asked fans to concentrate on their team instead of the financial goings on with Manchester United and has pleaded with fans to stop attacking The Glazer family, but is this Manchester United Legend Sir Alex Ferguson talking or has this come from upstairs to help in the PR campaign the Manchester United owners have put together to stop fans calling for the Glazer family to leave.
http://www.nzurisana.com/forum/showthread.php?402-Manchester-United-Manager-leave-the-Glazer-family-alone&p=406#post406
Manchester United Wayne Rooney could be forced to leave
Manchester United fans should be very worried after news Real Madrid are stepping up their game to buy Manchester United hero Wayne Rooney and if the past recent history is anything to go buy with the Glazer family in charge, Manchester United could sell
http://www.nzurisana.com/forum/showthread.php?403-Manchester-United-Wayne-Rooney-could-be-forced-to-leave&p=407#post407
I can’t strees the importance of Wednesday, city must be put in their place and if we win who knows what kind of a boost to the club this will mean.
For the last time to those idiots who think Rooney is going here is the truth, Fergie out the door if before players are forced to be sold because of ‘money’ troubles at the clubm so take a hint.
In Fergie We Trust
Love United Glazer Out
those two are different things, and they dont overlap. nuff said.
Cantona 7 absolutely spot on mate! I dont need to add a big post! They are not the same thing.
I am loyal to the cause of Manchester United.
I’m just not happy about lining the Glazer’s pockets at the same time while they bring United to their knees.
@ cantona7 and giggs11gerrard0
Exactly. Fergie is not part of the problem or the solution at this point. Nor do I expect him to be. I hope the protesting is done in a way that won’t cast anti-Glazers as the villains.
Danny Welbeck could be loaned out to Preston:
http://www.goal.com/en/news/9/england/2010/01/25/1760180/preston-north-end-close-to-snaring-danny-welbeck-on-loan
@Costas
Indeed mate, i will be wearing green and gold for every game now! I tell you one thing, im sure it will only spur the players on! The atmosphere was brilliant on Saturday considering it was Hull at home whos away fans were terrible?
PLayers will buzz off the ground being loud, imagine on Wed when we play the bitters and the place is rocking. We should mix the Glazer songs with the Citeh ones though.
They have a version of our song towards them U N I T E D United are the team for me! etc
They are singining U N I T E D United have got no money, with a kick knack paddy whack give the rags a loan get ocean finance on the phone!
Even though that is rather amusing, we must drown it out with our version.
(Simplest breakdown of figures)
120,000 fans x £10,000 = £1.2 Billion
1.2 Million fans x £1,000 = £1.2 Billion
2.4 Million fans x £500 = £1.2 Billion
4.8 Million fans x £250 = £1.2 Billion
There’s obviously limitless combination on how the finance would be divided but essentially you’re looking for a lot of people dishing out sizable amounts of money or a smaller group dishing out large amounts.
Ultimately you’re asking fans to buy shares, in the same way the Glaziers came-in and bought-up the majority of shares in Utd, effectively forcing small shareholders to sell-up. As a shareholder you would be entitled to dividends at year-end, in proportion to your investment and as a percentage of profits made by the company.
This takeover would obviously need representatives to facilitate the takeover / organize the investments or potential shares / negotiate etc etc etc. It’s certainly no easy task and would require some highly-skilled professionals. I really think it’s beyond any level of realistic ambition to assume the fans could organize such a monumental task.
I’m certainly no expert in the area but have no idea how such a takeover would begin to take shape. Who do you give the money to? Are they trustworthy? Is there legal protection in-place? etc etc.
If we could find an investor big enough to front the takeover we may stand a chance – someone with (x)% of the funds needed to take-over the club and essentially invest in their company.
I could be talking complete rubbish as I’ve little understanding of the market but I’m trying to articulate the proposal in lay-mans terms. Anyone work in the area who might shed some more light on the idea of fans taking over the club?
PS: I assume ‘Reds in Business’ are all over these issues and can see the path we might take in order to buy-out the club. Let’s hope they can get it together because it’s breaking my heart watching the club torn to shreds.
Fergi has given alot to United fans. We should all respect his wish and trust his word.
Afroman i hear what you are saying mate but I dont know why SAF has suggested it will be divisive?
It has actually brough the crowd together? Anyone who was there Sat never expected that for Hull.
Again we love SAF, we trust him, we know he is not lying but even in his own words he states ” Fans are unhappy with the financial situaion ”
Exactley that SAF and we dont want these parasites in our club, we cant go on just refinancing, paying off loans, increasing prices, not knowing what the future holds?
Paul H said: “I want it through being a well run club from top to bottom, attracting new investment and sponsors…
Oh hang on. Isn’t that what we already are? What were we complaining about again?”
— — — —
How can you claim that the club is well run when it’s in such a large debt with high interest costs? The most faithful supporters are driven out because of heavily increased ticket prices and the atmosphere inside the ground is suffering from manhandling security staff.
@giggs11gerrard0
Yep, I agree that a good atmosphere from our fans at OT is better than a quite one. Just as long as it doesn’t turn into a fight amongst fans. I do disagree with one point that Fergie made:
” I could see our opponents rubbing their hands with glee at the thought of watching us fall out among ourselves if we don’t all think carefully about what we are doing. ”
Sorry but currently, I could care less what City, Liverpool or Arsenal fans think. I don’t want us to turn on each other either, but that shouldn’t mean that we should keep our mouths shut.
Opponents always want United to fall, we get ridiculed as glory hunters and the urban myth that OT is the worst atmosphere in the country.
Tides are turning and fans becoming united is quality! Let the bitters have their shake, you cant buy class and I think Gary Cook is the perfect ambassador for them! Let the scousers wallow in their self pity whilst they languish in the UEFA cup, let the rent boys grow old gracefully whilst their golden boys are yet to win the European cup, let Arsene and his kids continue to smoke screen the real issue which is they have won fuck all for years!
all i can see is the man tryin to avoid all that shite happenin RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW. and i dont mean Man Utd. I mean HERE. u keep arguin, dividing and thats the worst thing for us now. i strongly support the green and gold campaign and any other. i also trust in Fergie AS A MANAGER, AS A COACH! he’s not a businessman and he apparently knows shit about finances. SO WHAT that they gave him the money if the money wasnt club’s and just increased the debt. cant you see that?!? he cant criticise the owners as he would get sacked. does ANY of you want United without Fergie NOW? i bet no, and he perfevtly knows about that. he tries his best to keep the club afloat. it is his personal issue too, after all. he took the club on its knees and, it things go bad, can leave it likewise.
dont argue about SAF
1) he’s not a god – cannot know everything about everything!
2) he’s a manager – a part of the team. i can’t remember anyone suggesting stop supporting the team. it would not happen. we support the team, we don’t support the greedy cunts who do everything to drain all the money out of United and leave. can’t you see that? they postponed the payment and already stated they will take money out of United to pay their debt. no development for the club. then, they will postpone it once more, just with lower per centage and finally they will leave the club with immense, maybe unpayable debt. try some reading and studying before you talk, you pink-tinned glasses bastards. your yamming is nothing good for anyone now.
if we don’t act now, it WILL be too late.
LUHG!
Seriously, i couldn’t mind letting this season go to waste if the Glazer can get out of this club. We are loyal to the club and have so much love for it which is why we are protesting. We are human with feelings and thoughts which we show what we think to the owner. We are not puppet who don’t know anything and let the club go down. LUHG!!!!!!!!!!!1
@costas
Danny welbeck has joined preston on loan untill end of season.
fuck me i’m torn. I don’t think it’s as straight cut as paul h has put it but it’s not completely doom n gloom. I don’t like the fact the club is so far in debt. It’s not about buying trophies paul, we’ve always paid well for our players, back in the day breaking transfer records for robson, pallister, keane etc. But back then we weren’t heavily in debt, instead spending what we’d made through shrewd marketing and investment. Any investment now would most likely service the debt. Having said that, i still maintain the glazers are business men, whose best interest it is when they come to sell on united is to sell it making a profit. A debt laden club wouldn’t allow them to do this. I don’t believe ronaldo left for financial reasons, more to fulfil a childhood dream. Rooney won’t be sold, he’s the rock on which fergie wants to build the next generation on as he has successfully done time and time again. I hate the debt the glazers have put on us, i trust fergie, and i love united
Good debate on the debt issiue’s my stance is the glaziers are slowly killing the club and they must be ousted. I take on board what dave mack and wakey are trying to say but im worried if bond scheme doesn’t work what will the glaziers do next. LUHG
@willierednut
It’s official hey? I guess it’s for the best. I hope he can get a lot of games under his belt. It might do him good if he experiences life outside United for a while.
I have nothing of value to add to this conversation except that there is this bald cunt with glasses that goes to my gym, and he looks suspiciously like one of the Glazer lads, and I want to punch his face in every time I see him, just because he looks like those cunts.
Bring on City on Wednesday.
Excuse my very poor language, but I can’t really get my point across on how I feel about the Glazers with mere intonations.
United Rant summed it up perfectly
http://www.unitedrant.co.uk/?p=6130
kenyan canadian red, are you on commission for that website?
The Glazers told him too, its pretty clear. He’s been in the club for over 20 years, and he knows best that United are better off without Glazer. but he really doesnt have a choice!
Where were they in Moscow?
Where were they in Wembley?
Where were they in Rome?
Where were they in Wigan?
Oh sorry, we were winning my mistake!!!
steRDLK – Spot on pal.
@MG
I’m curious did you bother to read any of the information from the Glazers when the deal initially went through?
The Glazers could have bought the club outright without any debt if they had cashed in other assets. However they were understandably not eager to have to go chasing buyers for assets as being desperate to sell is never a good thing in business. They were advised to go the route the did because the profits the assets turned each year was more than the interest on both the PIK and Bank loans cost and would ultimatly generate enough to pay the loans off.
While they never expressily stated this it does suggest the plan was to use the profits from all their investments to pay off the PIK’s when it was time to and to then basically use the rest of the money to issue what would basically be a ‘Internal Bond Issue’ where they would swap the Bank loans for a Loan from the Glazer Family. They would then draw a dividend each season which would pay off the ‘bond’. Obviously the global climate has had an impact and things like the Bond issue suggest they are juggling things to maximise profits across the group so everything remains on track.
And thats the problem with alot of Fans, they see United as a seperate entity BUT we aren’t. The Clubs part of the Glazers Business and at the end of the day if its better for debt to be attached to United so profitable assets that will pay off the debt don’t have to be sold off then thats the best way for them to go even if it means most fans fail to comprehend the situation
- “May I ask that do you agree with the Glazer’s giving away 300 million of Manchester United made money to banks and hedge funds since they took over as pie in the sky?” What about the dividends that were paid out by the PLC that over 5 years exceeded 100million despite its turnover and profit being half of what it currently is. As a PLC we would be paid out more in Dividends than the Interest payments
- “Do you agree that whilst the club bleeds money into these leech like institutions – that the Glazer’s find 20 million for themselves from Manchester United and take it as a loan on a favorable rate?” As a PLC Management Fees and the Likes were paid as well just as they are in any company for services rendered. As for the 10mill of that which is loans, there is nothing wrong with moving money around an organisation. If its better off for everyone going to companies under the Glazer banner that are operated by the Junior Glazers then so be it. Its about maximising the profits across the whole organisation not just at United. And infact some of these drawings are clearly done for accounting reasons to reduce ‘outlay’ on things like taxes
- “Do you not think that since they are billionaires that there treatment of the biggest football club in the world is nothing short of a disgrace?” Not really as they have done nothing that is ‘disgraceful. They have followed fairly standard business practices. Just look at Kraft Buying Cadburys, thats a leveraged buy out as well as Kraft don’t actually have the Cash available to buy the company despite having the assets to be able to do so. They are borrowing the money from RBS and leveraging it against Cadburys. It happens on an almost daily basis
@MG Again
First of all lets Deal with the Barca argument. In Spain its very different. For starters the CE/President is elected every few years and each person running has to not only be able to put down millions of Euros as a personal security just to run and also requires to have ‘Investers’ already lined up to further support them. As such the 20mill that the fans bring in is little more than a token gesture and really the only use of this is to subsidise ticket prices.
La Liga has 4 of these ‘socios’ and only Barca and Real are what you would consider ‘Successful’ and much of their success actually comes down to Governmental interference at the Local and National level. Both clubs get preferential bank loans from Spanish banks, in the case of Real often 0% with no payback date (Santander for example basically paid for Ronaldo, kaka and Benzema and will probally never see a penny back. They will write it off). And when they do have finacial issues the local gov bails them out, again look at Real when they had finacial issues before. The Local gov rezoned the city ‘forcing’ Real to sell them the land their training groun d was on, the Local Gov overpaid for the land by a fair bit and then contributed to the building of a new state of the art centre.
In Britain thats never going to happen, if our government tried using public money in that way or put pressure on banks to give free money to football clubs at the expense of British Bank customers there would be uproar.
And again with Fan Ownership the other Country that has successful teams that are Fan Owned is Germany where all clubs are required to have atleats 51% owned by Fans. However the top German clubs are unhappy about this rule as they believe it prevents them competeing with the rest of Europe and has seen the German Leagues quality drop far behind England, Spain and Italy
As for how would it be damaging to the club. You are wanting to do something thats unique and that is to basically hand the running of the club to the Fans completly. Sure you can say that the CE and Manager will be the ones running it rather than Fans but the problem is who are the people who appoint these people, its the Fans. If they want to keep their job then they have to keep the fans happy and keeping the fans happy and running both a successful business and a successful team don’t really go hand in hand. When it comes to signing players, picking teams would he feel pressured into doing what the Fans want to keep his job (Fergie probally wouldn’t but later managers might), if he didn’t do what we wanted would we forced his replacement. The same with the CE if the fans wanted lower ticket prices if they weren’t reduced but increased in line with other clubs rises to keep us finacially competative would we replace him or would he drop the prices despite it making us less competitive just to please the fans?
It would also make the Finances open to the world. It could be dangerous for us as players looking for new contracts would know what the club had and would hold us to ransom, especially if they are popular and know the fans would force the club to accept the demands to keep the player. And teams and players we were trying to sign would be able to fleece us knowing the finances. It would be like being a PLC again which was never good for us when buying players and negotiating contracts.
Oh and as Jig3000 says the group would have to hire people to handle the running at there end. Sorry but most fans don’t have the knowledge to be able to ‘Run’ the operation. And the amount of work required it isn’t something you can have people do part time. As such the group would have to pay management fees, management fees that you complain about the Glazers taking. And theres a good chance that the Management fees would be higher than the Glazers as everything is so much more complex
@SteniS
Being in debt doesn’t mean its a badly run business. I know its a strange concept as generally we are told being in debt is bad but in business especially with modern management techniques its not as simple as that. Most major companies operate with some kind of debt on their accounts
@Giggs11 – all your comments about the great atmosphere on Sat are off base. The players aren’t stupid. How do you think Rooney felt on scoring four goals and have it greeted with “Glazer Out” chants. As my son remarked “they obviousily HATE the Glazers more than they LOVE United.”
That’s what Fergies comments are all about. This will infect the team spirit.
@Wakey … sorry to say it mate but your great posts will fall on deaf ears. The herd mentality has taken over …. and they won’t let facts get in the way. (I appreciate them anyway!!)
Wakey.
How does the leveraged debt the Glaziers took-on, compare to that of Kraft on Cadburys? Are there similar hedge-funds in-place? Most are under the impression that the loan deals employed by the Glaziers were extremely risky and fall within the realms of the reckless banking that has resulted in global recession.
The hedge-funds we hear so-much about are the same hedge-funds Obama is hunting at the moment. However, it’s well publicised the bonds deal has been put in place to restructure the repayment and provide a more stable platform for the club to operate. Are they paying-off the stifling loans with this bond money and in-turn creating a transparent repayment system? If so, it means our standing is better this year than it was last? and that’s a good thing, no?
The one issue that’s really worrying fans is whether the likes of Cadburys and Utd are comparable in relation to sustained turnover now and into the future. It’s debatable that a football team has the ability to maintain sustained success in the way a production company can.
Any thoughts?
@Wakey
I appreciate the disadvantages as mentioned.
To counter that
The point about Barca fans paying a privilege fee was about to demonstrate that if fans love there club they would be willing to pay to keep it going.
I wasn’t talking about the Spanish club model – because that would not be present at United.
Secondly United does not need to have any involvement with any bank or government association because as noticed in the Glazer’s accounts the club is self sufficient in generating it’s own profit
Thirdly – the point about this model is as unique as you will find – the whole point of this fan take over is pretty simple. We do it for sentimental reasons – as mentioned I am prepared to do it – and you are not as stated you have your reservations which are totally acceptable. Just because we disagree doesn’t mean we are unequal for what we want for the club. That is the beauty of our proposal.
You must understand – the fans are buying the club for the sake of owning it. As mentioned they cannot profit from it – again you can refer back to my original piece instead of repeating myself.
Further to that note to keep the whole process simple – the proposed charter will significantly state that the fans cannot burden or dictate what the manager or CE does at the club. At no point is any group or persons allowed onto the board of United – for any financial gain to oversee this plan.
Maybe I haven’t made that clear enough – but there is a lot to write.
The only thing the fans would get back is that the club is secure and in their hands – that in the charter their personal share will never rise or fall – they cannot profit from it in any way – isn’t that what it’s about already? Do United fans support this club for supports sake or to make money from it? When we wear our shirt, do we do so because we are proud to have the crest on our chest or do we do it for financial gain?
It’s a bold proposal but one which is fair and wears it’s heart in the right place
If fans want to make money from there investment then unfortunately this is not the plan they should take up. If however this is about more than money and financial gain – then this plan is perfect. The club’s best interest is the manager running the team and the CE doing his job.
The only people that should make any decisions are the people at the club working hard for it. If anything the ambassadors of the clubs who already do a lot for the club can take the adequate decisions on whatever needs to be sorted or resolved. Again when such ambassadors retire – the club must seek ex players whose loyalty has always been to MUFC to come and take a unique position.
This alone should allay any fears that the club will be fleeced or in dire straits. Surely now we can look at Sir Bobby Charlton as an example – if the fans had the club today – we would be looking at him and Bryan Robson to make sure the club have the best interest of the fans.
I rest my case – like I said this is a leap of faith – if it happens it will never be replicated – although we would happily see other football teams copy us.
The model that we are trying to create is something that is not based on money or any financial gain as mentioned. The proposal will be to the heart, to the soul, it will be personal – a labor of love – a unique commitment – a binding show of affection between the fans and the club. We or most fans already do that everyday of our lives. We live and breathe our club because it means so much to us. All we are asking in this proposal is to channel that passion back into something greater than us.
And yes I am asking that firstly fans pay up to buy the club and then they pay up each year a small amount to keep the club going on our behalf – I know it’s a long shot – but it’s possible – we have closer to 350 million fans. Do you not believe that out of those 3-4m fans wouldn’tbe prepared to do this?
I hope so – and even if you don’t buy the argument – the proposal is honest and truthful and of course will make a lot more sense when it’s written up fully rather than the bits and pieces that you find now.
@Wakey and Dave Mack
I agree with most of your thoughts and I think it’s very important at this stage that people like us continue to explain what the financial situation is really about. The greatest risk we run is to have the media divide us and throw us into total chaos.
About the exit strategy of the Glazers, with the current leverage, and what they are saying about the potential growth in revenue, it does seem like they are planning another IPO in the years to come.
As strange as it may sound, though, I believ that the best ownership for the club is, in fact, one that is based solely on the business side of things. This will ensure the long term profitablity of the club. Long term profitability is the only way to make sure we have long term success on the pitch.
@MG
It is nice to see your dedication. But to be honest, I don’t it will work. There are too many things to consider and there will be too many things you didn’t think of. There is a reason even the Glazers use firms to advise them during take overs. Even if you managed this, how will you then organize the club for it to run smoothly? You still have to maximize profits and grow revenues, because our competitors are. If you don’t, they will eventually outbid us for every player. In history, collectively owned enterprises do not have an impressive record when it comes to such matters. Still, if this is something you want to pursue, go ahead. Passion is always encouraging to see.
Again, I want to reinforce the fact that debt, in itself, is not a bad thing. Before the take over by the Glazers, the debt was mainly towards the shareholders. The shareholders demanded either growth in the price of the share, a yearly dividend that reflected the interest rate of banks + a risk premium or both. This means that debt to the bank will be cheaper than debt to the owners. When you leverage a buy-out, you reduce the cash flow needed for the investment to be profitable. This is, of course, up to a certain point. Beyond that point, bank loans become more expensive than investor money. United are not at that point, though.
Another reason debt to banks are better than shares (again, up to a certain point) is that interest is tax-deductible for the club, whereas paying dividends to owners is not. This is usually when a lay man loses the grip on what’s going on. Interest and dividends are primarily connected to cash flows, rather than profit. Moreover, showing a profit of 20 every year does not mean that our spending on transfers is limited to 20. This is too complicated to explain in a space like this and if you don’t already know what I’m talking about, I don’t want you even remotely in control of this club. Not even if your ownership is limited to one share.
Therefore, I will maintain that this is the media, trying to split us and sever our club, and I urge you to trust the investors that took up the bonds and the banks and other institutions that made the take over possible for the Glazers. They have analysed the business plan of the Glazers and found that it works. If that plan meant making United into Leeds, there wouldn’t be any buyers and subsequently, no profit for the Glazers. People will have to realise that financial and footballing results are linked together and we could have owners that are so much worse. If you don’t like it, there’s always the amateur clubs like FCUM.
@Wakey14.29
Without sounding rude
Any business in debt is only as good as a healthy economy or if the company is international it is as good as a successful global economy.
So now figure this. Our economy is nearly 200billion in debt – and apart from China and a certain handful of other countries – the world economy is in recession – or unstable.
Two things
A – it shows the argument I made earlier that the club is powerful to withstand such trouble – just
B – it continues to grow – however so does the debt
The bonds again are debt to buy off debt to ease the pressure. Good for Glazer’s and friends – not nice for us – since nothing is guaranteed in the economic world – what is to say we have a worse depression and as stated in the Glazer Bond brochure – the training ground/stadium are sold off to pay for the debt we have borrowed in Bonds to pay off the original debt?
I’m sorry – I appreciate your remarks and again they would be fine if we were not in recession – but in business nothing is guaranteed. And ultimately the club in debt is a big no – the only thing I can agree with you is that they have realised that SAF must be left alone to do his job. Subsequently I believe the gaffer is correct in what he says – just because fans are angry at the Glazer’s it doesn’t mean that you tell the gaffer to walk – that would just probably set us back 25 years.
@yergen
Thanks for the words
The club runs smoothly as it has always done – David Gill is in charge of all affairs off the pitch
SAF is in charge of all affairs on the pitch
The ambassadors of the club are in charge of the best interests of the club on and off the pitch (as they already are) and between the club and fans.
May I point out that the Glazer’s do not sit at OT and make decisions. May I also point out that if you in hindsight took them out – we would still have DG running the club – and SAF the team. So tell me what’s the difference?
All I am pointing out is that you replace the Glazer’s with the ambassadors of the club on the board. As mentioned the fans place is just that – fans. It’s just some of us will own a little bit of Manchester United – and that is no bad thing since the ownership is not based on any financial gain just sentimental gain.
Long shot? yes.
May not work? yes
Give it a try?
Absolutely
And let’s not forget – the plan will be initially done in steps. The first one is to gather as many reds as possible in order of an intent that they would be willing to sign up for this.
The rest will come in due course – so again please stay on the blogs and keep watching
@MG
You don’t understand how a company is run. The owners have a purpose with its ownership, usually to make a certain profit. The board draws up a strategy to make this happen. In a situation like ours the Glazers or their representatives make up most of the board as well. David Gill, or any CEO/MD, tries to execute the strategy according to the board and is responsible for the day-to-day business, but he does not run the club.
When/if we replace the Glazers with supporters they will have to elect a board that represent their ideas. This board will have to formulate a strategy that corresponds to what the new owners want. If not, David Gill won’t know where to steer the ship.
When ownership is spread, like you are suggesting, strategy and direction usually suffer. You will have different factions competing and most likely factions that will interfere in football matters. Not an ideal situation.
Most of all, I think a lot of the MUST people (and the likes) will think football first and I think this is a mistake. We are the greatest football club on earth and as such we should also be able to dominate financially. This is the only way we can stay competitive on the pitch as well. But to be able to dominate financially we have to have owners that are in for financial gain and base their decisions on financial rationality. Sugar daddies and sentimental owners will make financially unsound decisions. History has proven this, over and over again (f.e Leeds).
@ Vergen … very good comments. If you saw my post re our need for “best possible” communication to priority stake holders you’ll know that I totally agree with you re a “global sporting enterprise” to have separate but highly complimentary financial and football leadership.
What we’re seeing now from these protests is in my opinion the result of one or both of the following:
1. Misinformation by the media acting on the emotion of “stake holders” who are passionately connected to the business (season ticket holders and supporters who love the “club”)
2. Individuals who fundamentally believe that “football clubs” should be owned and / or controlled by supporters and see this as an opportunity to promote this out dated (and maybe, sadly) unworkable structure.
There’s also a big piece of “sticking it to the man” going on by thousands of people who feel powerless in the face of the recessionary pressures effecting their lives. No amount of logic or sound thinking is going to quell this and that, in my view is what’s got Fergie so worried.
We’ll just have to wait it out and hopefully results on the pitch or a “prize” in coming transfer my keep it under control.
LU – IFIT.
@yergen
Again I respect your point of view
It’s harsh if your telling me how a company is run and I don’t know about it because again I express to you that you have missed the fundamental point of my proposal (Plus I ran a company : )
When the PLC were running United they had to make decisions in order to satisfy the pockets of the board
As the Glazer’s are running the club, they execute decisions in order to
A. Repay the debts – which are rising due to the financial turmoil
B. Make money for themselves
The only positive thing they have done is to leave SAF alone to do his duties as the manager of Manchester United.
In turn they have let David Gill get on with his job to run the club because that’s what he is paid to do – to maximize his ability to grow the club and to fully enable the potential of the club to reach as many parts of the world as possible – hence for the club their are more than enough sufficient financial gains.
Do not forget that David Gill is the best at what he does – initially he opposed the takeover – which should tell you that they needed him badly.
I am aware of fan ownership in other countries – please do not sugesst that this proposal is being taken lightly.
The point about fan ownership in Spain is that the club is run by Presidents who have there own agenda – I am not proposing that model
In Germany it’s a bit different and as mentioned by Wakey German clubs have been bogged down by that – I am not proposing that
What we are proposing is totally unique – I won’t repeat all of it again – please use your discretion accordingly
The fans buy the club.
A charter will be put into place saying that fans cannot dictate or have any power over the club. The point of buying the club is based on sentimental value and that each share every fan takes can never be sold for a profit – unless to be sold off to a United fan who does not possess a share – for the same money that he paid for.
The purpose of this is two fold
No one will ever take Manchester United over
Manchester United will owe nothing to the fans financially apart from what it has always given – which is the sentimental value that fans hold and used in order to save the club from any financial uncertainty or eventual asset strip/buy out again through debt etc.
Again.
The United board consists of the ambassadors of the club which oversee that the club continues to grow on and off the pitch (this already happens does it not?)
David Gill continues in his job – off the pitch he still has to answer to the board and in return take any advice the board give/vice versa (again this already happens does it not?)
Sir Alex Ferguson or any other manager that follows will continue to look after the teams affairs (once more this happens as of now)
So one more time. The fans take the club over and it will forever remain in the hands of those that are committed to United.
However we will stay as fans and must sign a legally binding document saying so.
If this was now – I would say to you that I trust Sir Bobby Charlton – Bryan Robson etc to continue to make the best decisions for the club.
The only thing extra they would be asked to do is to make sure that Manchester United are well oiled and well run – nothing wrong with that – you are not going to say to me that you wouldn’t believe that our ambassadors are up to the job – since they already make decisions about the club and are involved daily at OT or when asked to go accordingly around the world to carry the good name of the club.
Bold – yes? But what have I said wrong? A leap of faith is just that. I am prepared to do it – because I love my club. I don’t want to make a profit out of it – I want it to be bigger still and the proposal is giving an opportunity like no other for other fans to do so. If again you are telling me that fans are going to cause problems – yes – once in there lifetimes when they did something that many thought they couldn’t do – and the Glazer’s walked.
We haven’t even kicked this off the ground let alone anything else.
Even if you don’t want to be a part of it – you can’t deny the sincerity of it.
It’s not about the money – it’s about that something more which made me fall in love with my club in the first place – and instead of buying a tv or a playstation – for once I can save my cash and put it to something truly worthwhile – again nothing wrong with since I and everyone else that signs up are only asking in return that the club is happy and safe and debt free. I apologize sincerely if many readers don’t get it – I am just asking to hold on and wait for things to connect and take place – so watch this space
The crazy thing is that the money I put it in – will not make me richer – but what is more richer than knowing that you have the biggest club in the world – bigger still – and that you had a once in a lifetime chance to do something about the state we are in now? At no point can any one fleece it – I don’t understand the negativity – I understand that the proposal is far fetched – but impossible no – it’s an emotional ask to back your club – but at worse the money will be a one off – and at most we are asking
sorry to not have finished that off
- and at most we are asking that fans show this sentimental intent
- that fans show that they know why they are doing this and that they must sign up to it
- that all the money the club generates falls back into the benefit of the club and that the goodwill shown by the fans means that the manager – the CE – the board consisting only of Manchester United ambassadors (ie ex fans) should always know that we will never sell out to anyone thus placing the club in financial turmoil – like it is now.
Thanks for reading – I get it if you don’t get it – it’s not like it’s a document that is in it’s whole that you can make your mind on
So I apologize – but at the end we will need everyone we can get to make this happen
I hope all of you that discount this can give us a chance to sell it to you – it is not what you think – thank you
May I also point out that if I do not have such discussions with United fans – that such a proposal cannot come watertight and to the benefit and agreement for most fans in general.
That also excludes fans that will not buy this idea.
But again the point of this plan is simple.
We are not putting the money in to make it back for ourselves.
We are putting it in that the club can always reinvest within itself and be bigger still without any notion of debt or any notion of having to sell off assets accordingly to pay for any debt
That is totally possible if you believe that there are enough fans out there that will sign on to this and expect the same challenge – meaning that they will never make a financial gain on the club.
Give it a thought it’s like nothing that you have read or seen before.
Again thank you for your time
@ Wakey and @yergen
Thanks for your input. Most of us don’t understand the situation. I do run my own Plumbing buisness but I have an Accountant that takes care of the figures. I think the problem we’re having is that all we see is our beloved club is in debt and our bitter rivals have had theirs paid off, their fans are having a ball gloating and its not helping . ( we would so I don’t blame them) I might be wrong but thats the feeling i’m getting off some of the comments and friends who are fans and its only my view. I know United will ride the storm and come out fighting. Lets get behind the team on Wednesday and shout out the blue shite with our United songs wave your Red or Green and Gold scarves and flags. Let Rooney shut Kettleneck and co up.
I’m getting the impression that a lot of people on here is ok with the off field situation at utd and don’t think the Glazers are doing anything out of their rights (which is perhaps true as they own the club – technically it’s in their rights to do exactly what they please with it) and you know perhaps some of us are ‘sheep’ or ‘cattle’ for fearing the worst and at least wanting too think of another option, perhaps it isn’t a good option but it is still an option that should be explored before throwing it out because even if it is not taken up by fans, there could be knock on benefits due to just trying.
Bottom line is that we don’t know what is going to happen – the glazers could sell off to a rich billionaire fan in a yr and several problems solved. But i’m getting the impression from what i’ve read in various sources is that the best case scenario the debt is completely paid off in 7yrs+ (without having to sell off major club assets in the process, ie… training ground, important players,etc…) and the club runs without the debt & fan displeasure by 2017 – or we get a rich new owner before then ?
But what is the clubs worst case scenario in the next few yrs?
Our best players getting sold (even if they don’t really want to be)?
old trafford being sold?
the debt getting even bigger?
Perhaps the above won’t happen but after recent events can anyone rule that out 100% (even 90%)?
If the worst was to happen would everyone still be ok about the whole thing? (will all fans say that things are fine the way they are?)
I suppose the majority of you are thinking the above is a extreme and is unlikely to happen? – which is true to an extent, but you can’t really use the word ‘never’ anymore when considering what lengths our owners may go to to rid the debt – please correct me if i’m wrong.
perhaps the precautions and solutions that the club and owners are doing now is the best long term solution and scenario for the club and the fans, i don’t have a crystal ball. But for me at least it doesn’t stop me thinking and hoping that their has to be a better option than what is being played out at the club right – it is depressing not to hope there is at least. But if some of think that the option being played out right now is the only option then I am not going to argue, i’m not going to change your minds am I?!
@MG
I do understand your sentiments and I do appreciate the sincerity of your proposal. I don’t want to take your drive and passion away, because this is what will ultimately keep our club at the top flight. In a way, I want your idea to work and I would be there immediately if I thought it did.
But I don’t trust our ambassadors, like Bryan Robson, Sir Bobby Charlton et al, with running our club from a financial standpoint. They don’t have a clue about these things and would stand helpless. The ambassadors should advise on things they know. This is what they are doing today and this has more to do with culture rather than finances.
And forgive me for this, but your idea is borderline socialistic. In a perfect world this would be okay, and there’s nothing wrong with that per se, but United have to be strong financially to even survive. To be able to do this I think we have to have owners that really strive for profitability. If not, we won’t be able to buy any players in the future. Socialism does not have the best record when it comes to long term financial stability.
@dl
I’m not sure the aim is to get rid of the debt. I, for one, hope that we continue to be in debt because that is a cheap(er) way to finance the club. This is what people don’t realise.
The real problem is that the media has succeeded in dividing our club. This is what might drag us down, not the debt in itself.
@Jig3000
There aren’t too many details known on the Cadburys deal, atleast not that I have seen BUT the deal is £11.5billion and Kraft had to borrow £7billion of that. How much of that is leveraged directly against Cadburys is uncertain but thats a hefty amount that without interest is equal to about 18 years of profits for cadburys.
There is obviously a difference between Kraft/Cadburys and United/Glazers but ultimately Kraft are putting a smaller percentage of their own money into the deal than the Glazers did to United (The Glazers put in 250mill + the money from the PIK’s they took out which off the top of my head is around 120mill). It just shows that in modern business debt isn’t something that is feared as long as its planned and managed
@MG
yergen’s replies deal with much of your posts but a few things
Barca Fans don’t pay to keep the club going, they pay for the misguided belief that they are helping the club when really all they do is reduce ticket prices slightly for those that attend matches as well as ‘supposedly’ getting to choose the next President buy most of the time everyone but the richest person drops out before the vote (So they don’t have to pay the running fee in a race they know they will lose because they don’t have the finances to come close to backing up promises to match the richest richest guy) so all they get to do is take part in a pointless 1 horse race vote.I mean seriously at United if 20mill was raised a season from the supporters that would get season ticket holders 1 free game a season.
And seriously you must realise that finding 3million fans paying between £250 and £1000 is impossible right, even for a club as popular as United. While you may think that your idea is unique its not actually, The Green Bay Packers actually use an almost identical system, the only difference is they dont restrict people to 1 share but 200,000 shares. Share sell for £250 each and they have sold a total of 4,750,934 shares to 112,051 people. Sure selling a stake in United will be easier and more people would do it but 3million of them. Perhaps if people could buy more than 1 share then it might work but 1 share per person is asking way too much. It doesn’t matter that we have 350million fans as its about how many of these can afford to just spend £250 + £25 per season to get nothing but a warm fuzzy feeling back. Remember one of the biggest issues that those against the Glazers keep raising is that Fans struggle to afford the season tickets any longer so where are these Fans finding the £250. Are they supposed to stop going to matches just to be able to afford to own part of the club?
“The real problem is that the media has succeeded in dividing our club. This is what might drag us down, not the debt in itself.”
Bingo!…. and that takes us back to the theme of this blog and is totally aligned to the fears Fergie expressed in his commentary.
LU – IFIT
@ Dave Mack You’re not exactly innocent in this division are you? Confusing all the glazer haters as Fergie bashers. As many posters above me have stated, 2 separate issues.
Businesses can run in debt thats not a problem to me. What is a problem is that every year ticket prices increase more than the rate of inflation. This coincidently occured when the glazers took over. The money they earn on ticket sales alone equates on average to almost £60 million a season (Probably more I doubt its less)
Where is this money going?
It isn’t going towards stadium expansion,
On evidence this season and my opinion in general it isn’t going towards the team.
Its going towards the debt.
AND in a time of a recession it most certainly isn’t going back to the supporters. I guarantee next season we’ll see ticket hikes again. This has turned the atmosphere at times inside Old Trafford into a joke.
Not to mention the bullshit automatic cup scheme which has guaranteed one thing only, ticket sales not bums on seats.
I’m still laughing at how they stated there was 74,000 vs Coventry in the Carling Cup in 2007. Bollocks was there. I could have lied down across my row to watch that game thats how many empty seats there were. Corporate sections are flooded with away fans and funnily enough no heavy handed stewarding to be seen!
One of the above posters mentioned that we paid £100 million to a plc but at least United were affordable to watch. At least then we DIDN’T have a phantom season ticket waiting list. It costs more for a match ticket and 2 beers from the off license than it does for a night out into town. To me thats wrong and its all happened when the glazers came in. It will be interesting to see what the glazers do when Fergie steps down and lets face it he isn’t going to be here in 5 years let alone 10 as much as we want it to happen.
You can blame the media, the slogans, the ABUs, the supposed/potential divisions betweens fans to emphasise pro glazer/anti glazer pro debt/anti debt. It isn’t about that from my view its about having a club which is affordable to watch for all supporters from all classes with money being invested back into the team when necessary no matter the cost. It was a concept that was working fairly well before glazer and nobody can deny that.
@Notorious Red Devil ….. I can understand why you’d want to try to duck the issue but Fergie knows how harmful these protests are to the club and has asked everyone to pull together. So I guess the question is …Are you going to protest or not???????? (You can’t have it both ways …either TRUST Fergie on this issue or don’t …your choice)
When you answer that you can decide who’s being devise and who isn’t? My answers is In Fergie I Trust – While he backs the owners I’ll do everything I can to persuade people to stop the protests.
Now explain how that’s being devisive? You and I and all other true United supporters don’t have to agree on anything about the owners, the team selection, season ticket prices, etc etc. We can argue our side here or over a beer but when we get to OT we should get behind the team.
On Saturday my son and I experinced way more HATE for the Glaziers than LOVE for United. Wazza and the rest of the team deserved a lot better support than “Glazer’s Out” chanters gave them.
LU – IFIT
Our team at Old Trafford deserves a lot more respect on the pitch than it has got for a very long time. In all probability the ones chanting “glazer Out” do the majority of chanting anyway. You may have experienced more hate than love Saturday just be glad you got an atmosphere that is usually reserved for the “BIG” games, at least these days. My suggestion to you is either chant louder or get more people to chant in your section (the latter being virtually impossible in certain parts of the ground) On Wednesday my 2 mates and I will be getting behind the team singing mostly anti-city songs, but rest assured I’ll be chiming in with a few anti-glazer songs. The reason why? Well if this tie was played even 3 years ago there would be at least 6 of us going. That isn’t the case anymore, for reasons I’ve already stated. Fergie may be saying that these protests will harm our club but uttered nothing during the time Sky tried to buy us. Also I doubt Fergie would be saying the same thing if he was still on a working class wage having to pay our ticket prices.
@NotoriousRedDevil
The thing is with Ticket Prices is that the percentage rise is round about the amount as our rivals. And as our Ticket prices were lower anyway the actual rise is less than most of our comparative rivals.
Now Matchday is where most clubs make the bulk of their profits, perhaps if we were in Spain it may be different as we would be able to sell our own TV rights but certainly in the Premiership its essential to be able to remain competative. Even as a PLC ticket prices rose each season at a rate higher than inflation and they would have kept rising.
As for where the money is going. They do want to expand the South Stand and have stated that. The problem is its something thats going to take years just to get started due to the issues. With the Stand backing directly onto the Railway and then houses behind that it means that the plans have to accomadate the railway in a way thats safe and acceptable to all and a minimum of 50 houses need to be bought. Getting all that sorted out isn’t a quick or cheap process
The PLC and the Glazers have spent £114mill on the Staduim expansions but with the issues the cost of making the South Stand 2 tiered is estimated to cost in excess of that. If they want to make it 3 tiered like the North stand and fill in the quandrants you are looking at more. When you consider that the total cost of the Staduim Everton were looking to build in Kirby was going to be £140mill (with Everton paying £70mill of it)it puts the task into perspective. Apparently 2 tiers will increase the capacity to around 96,000 so based on 60mill being made now you would be looking at an extra 16mill each season so its actually debatable if its even value for money.
Building the team wise, they haven’t really skimped on purchases. What has happened though is that we haven’t been fleeced on transfers quite as much as we were as a PLC. There is only really Berbatov where we have paid vastly over the odds for a player (And that was only due to A Norwegian Fan Site which the Sun decided to use for a story and state it was an Official site thus getting levy in a mood and then City trying to show off)
The simple fact is if you want the Stadium to be expanded and players to be bought then even if we didn’t have the interest on the debt to pay the club has to keep ticket prices at a rate comparative to our rivals. The only way really that Ticket prices could be reduced would be if another income stream could be found to offset it but that would no doubt have to come from the fans Pockets anyway so infact they save nothing
@ Wakey & Yergen
Thank your for your very level headed & well reasoned posts. Quite informative reading, & brought some much needed sense in to this debate
I disagree strongly Wakey. Theres a huge difference between our ticket prices and that of l’arse and chelski. They are both London based, EVERYTHING in London from pints to pies and all the rest costs more. The plc’s ticket price hikes werent as astronomical as they have been now. You failed to mention the Automatic Cup Scheme which leads to phantom attendances. It may appear to some that you are condoning the glazer practices which is why people may be getting on your back. These ticket price hikes are totally unacceptable which is the point you seem to be missing. There was no ACS when we were a plc and we would still get good attendances in the cups. Then there’s the £5 increase per round of champions league, and god forbid you sit in one of the cheap(er) seats. It means you have to apply AGAIN for a ticket in the cup and probably lose out even if you have a season ticket as I painfully found out vs Barcelona 2 years ago. That would NEVER had happened pre-glazer.
As for the stadium expansion of the quadrants, that was paid for before the glazers came in. It wasn’t a glazer decision it was a plc decision. Also there are 2 ways to exapand the stadium, one is to add quadrants like in the North Stand, the other is like you said make South Stand into 3 tiers. They don’t have to extend the south stand due to the railway, the houses aren’t an issue as far as I’m aware as the club reportedly owns some of these. Finally the glazers haven’t spent money, look at the balance sheet of players in and out before Ronaldo. Every year we’ve sold before we’ve bought we even made £40 million in transfers when we signed Nani, Anderson and Hargreaves. A point that was missed by the media.
I just can’t help but feel that your viewpoint which is so eloquantly put is a mirage of you burying your head in the sand.