Four minutes in to Manchester United’s 4-0 win over Wigan, the Stretford End starting singing the Luis Suarez “racist bastard” chant. The chant that followed was “always the victims, it’s never their fault“. This is a standard occurrence at Old Trafford and United’s away games, dating back to almost a year ago following Liverpool FC’s refusal to accept that Luis Suarez was guilty of racially abusing Patrice Evra.
These two songs have been sung every week, not by a quiet minority but by 1,000s of United fans. It is also sung by Everton fans who have been widely praised for their respectful behaviour ahead of their game against Newcastle this week.
Whilst it was Liverpool’s reaction to Suarez’s guilt that lead to the creation of the song, there are deeper meanings behind it. It’s likely that some people singing it are purely referring to Suarez but I’d guess the vast majority are referring to the nature of scousers in general. The stereotype being that they are a whining, grief-hungry bunch of victims, who revel in self-pity and aren’t prepared to take responsibility for their own actions.
Last weekend, the press decided to tell us that we were in fact singing about Hillsborough, after previously unreleased documents about the tragedy had been made available to the public earlier that week. Ben Smith from the BBC was the first to stir it up and then other media outlets followed. The Daily Express went with the headline: “Manchester United fans mock Hillsborough tragedy”. It’s incredible that they could publish an article with such an emotive, irresponsible, but most importantly, untrue headline.
Mick Dennis, The Express, wrote: They chanted about Liverpool supporters during the match against Wigan, singing: “Always the victims, it’s never your fault.” Later, the Manchester United Supporters Trust issued a mealy-mouthed statement in which they said those chants “didn’t refer to Hillsborough”. But you cannot clarify the meaning of abusive songs several hours later. And the point about the report of the Hillsborough disaster was that Liverpool fans were absolutely not to blame. They were victims of a truly terrible disaster and then victims again of a reprehensible cover-up. And so the chants at United were wretched and base. No ifs and buts. No debate.
I’m not writing this to claim that United fans are whiter than white. Unfortunately, no football club can claim to have fans who have never sung about something they shouldn’t have. I’m writing this because no media outlet has attempted to explain the reasons behind the chant, instead parcelling it off as sick and disrespectful, suggesting that United’s fanbase is full to the brim with people who would mock the deaths of 96 innocent people, and have been belting that song out every single week with the thoughts of those that died at Hillsborough on our mind. That quite simply is a lie and only serves to make it almost certain that this weekend there will be chants of the clubs’ tragedies from both sides. Liverpool fans will (rightly?) want to react, although they are reacting to something that didn’t even happen, which will (rightly?) mean United fans respond.
Of course we have some idiots who chant about Hillsborough and they bring shame on the club, but to suggest that 1000s of us are chanting about Hillsborough every game, and have been doing for almost a year, is beyond ridiculous. All clubs have an idiotic minority but this song is sung en masse by people who wouldn’t ever consider using Hillsborough as a tool to wind up a rival. Yes, we hate scousers, but Hillsborough was about sons, daughters, mothers and fathers, it was about people, not Liverpool FC, and if you can’t differentiate between the deaths of human beings and the deaths of Liverpool fans, thinking one is worthy of ridicule and mocking, there is something very wrong with you.
In reaction to the claims from the press, the Manchester United Supporters Trust quickly released a statement to clarify that despite what had been reported, the “always the victims, it’s never your fault” chant did not originate with thoughts of Hillsborough.
Following this week’s developments and release of revelatory information on the Hillsborough tragedy, MUST wishes to make it absolutely clear that just as we condemn chants mocking the Munich Air Disaster we also condemn any chants relating to Hillsborough or indeed any other human tragedy.
We did hear the usual anti-Liverpool chants at the match today but we’re pleased to say, despite some reports to the contrary, there was nothing that was specifically referencing Hillsborough. Any attempt to suggest otherwise is irresponsible given the forthcoming fixture between the clubs and furthermore risks needlessly upsetting the bereaved families further at a time when they are understandably trying to find closure.
We enjoy a fierce rivalry but these issues transcend that rivalry. We agree 100% with the statement made by Sir Alex Ferguson – this is the time for supporters of these two great clubs to represent their clubs with the integrity and honour that our glorious history demands.
However, there seem to be some fans and sections of the press that want the chant to be about Hillsborough. Rival fans want a stick to beat United with and the papers want to have a tasty story to write about. They have pointed to the words “always” and “never” which certainly suggest that the chant, whilst first sung because of Suarez, isn’t just about him.
So, if the song isn’t about Hillsborough, what is it about?
Suarez
Suarez changed his story several times when giving evidence to the FA and was caught in a lie when he claimed he pinched Evra’s arm to “defuse” the situation, before admitting that wasn’t the case at all. He admitted to calling Evra “negro” but claimed that he meant it in a friendly way. During a game between United and Liverpool, after kicking Evra in the knee, slapping the back of his head, and pinching him, the FA deemed that his defence was nonsense, there was nothing friendly about his actions towards Evra that day, and he intended for the word to be provocative and insulting.
In reaction to Suarez being found guilty of racially abusing Evra, Kenny Dalglish and all the team wore t-shirts with a picture of Suarez on the front and his name and number on the back. To offer their full backing to Suarez despite the findings of the FA was incredible, a total PR disaster, but Dalglish continued to argue that Suarez had done nothing wrong.
James Lawton, The Belfast Telegraph: Dalglish has always been an obdurate character but what he said of the return of Luis Suarez after his eight-match ban for racially abusing Patrice Evra brought a new edge of corrosion to his contribution to an affair which in a few days’ time will give us fresh evidence of a football culture saddled with hate.
There was some hope – though admittedly it was not high – that Dalglish might draw some kind of line under the case when Suarez reappeared against Spurs on Monday, especially with his player and Evra coming face to face again at Old Trafford on Saturday.
Instead, the Liverpool manager declared: “It was fantastic for Suarez to be back – but he should never have been out in the first place.”
So, it is not enough that he approved the wearing of Suarez T-shirts that scandalised so much of football outside the Liverpool enclave or expressed disbelief when asked if in any way he regretted that Evra was jeered and booed every time he touched the ball when he returned to Anfield.
Now Dalglish refuses to close the door on the issue. Indeed, he provokes a new sense of injustice, a new certainty that the dispute remains a raw, untreated sore on the face of football. This would be a lot easier to accept if Dalglish and the ownership of Liverpool had shown the courage of their belief that Suarez was innocent and fought his conviction. They had that option but they compromised. They chose the role not of fighters for truth but victims of injustice.
Always the victim, it’s never your fault.
It wasn’t just the club and fans, but the press too. Liverpool supporting journalists went on to claim that Suarez had been found guilty in a case that was one man’s word against another. They published this as fact in papers like The Guardian, despite Suarez’s own lawyer conceding that wasn’t the case at all in the FA report. Another journalist wrote that lip-readers couldn’t prove what Suarez had actually said, again trying to put doubt on his guilt, despite the FA report revealing that Suarez had confessed to calling Evra “negro” every time he was questioned. Had these Liverpool supporting journalists at The Guardian honestly not read the report? Or were they just lying to cover up Suarez’s wrong-doings in attempt to suggest he was innocent?
Dalglish was sacked at the end of the season and Sir Alex Ferguson believed his woeful handling of the Suarez case contributed to this.
Michael Shields
Michael Shields was arrested and later found guilty of attempting to kill a Bulgarian man with a paving slab whilst celebrating Liverpool FC’s European Cup win in 2005. The victim, father of two Martin Georgiev, didn’t die but suffered significant brain damage. Georgiev worked at Big Ben fish and chips and had come outside to intervene in a dispute between Bradley Thompson and his friend Anthony Wilson with other English people at the chippy.
Three Bulgarians witnesses, as well as Georgiev, all identified Shields in a line-up as the man who dropped the slab on Georgiev’s head after he had been punched and fallen to the floor. Whilst on the floor, he was kicked by two other men, who were identified by the witnesses as Wilson and Thompson.
Shields’ defence was that he was in bed by 3am at the Kristal hotel when the attack took place in a room with his friends Kieron Dunne, John Unsworth and others. A witness claimed he heard the three men who had attacked Georgiev say they were staying at this hotel and this is where the police seized their passports the following morning. Who was staying in the room next to Shields? Wilson and Thompson.
Thompson confessed that he had attacked Georgiev, along with Shields and Wilson, and received a six-month suspended sentence. However, when the trial began and Thompson was called to give evidence, he gave a highly contradictory and muddled account of events. It wasn’t just his changed story that was suspicious, but the testimonies of lots of defence witnesses who had all happened to stumble in to Shields’ room and see him asleep at the time of the attack. One said they had entered the room, apparently unlocked, because they thought there was a party there. Another said they went to retrieve a mobile phone, and so on.
His family began a yellow ribbon campaign and called on the Government to intervene to save their son, insisting that he was a “gentle giant”.
“I felt sorry for him at first,” Unsworth said of Georgiev, “but by insisting it was Michael that attacked him he is just trying to get his compensation money. Anyway, he only came out of the fish-and-chip shop to help out the Germans who were out there.”
Whilst Shields was in prison, Liverpool FC players warmed up wearing t-shirts in support of a criminal who had been convicted of attempted murder and Jamie Carragher even dedicated a goal to him!
“If I’d have known I was going to score I would have worn a t-shirt under my Liverpool shirt with Michael’s name on it,” he said. “I want to dedicate that goal to Michael Shields and all his family who are suffering so badly right now. When we got the news that he’d not only be found guilty for a crime he didn’t commit but actually been sentenced to 15 years, our hearts sank. For myself, Steven and the other local lads in the team, it really hit us. He’s one of us. He should have been here in Lithuania cheering us on but instead he’s locked up. Me and Stevie are heartbroken for the lad because it’s obviously an injustice.”
Always the victim, it’s never your fault.
After four years in prison, Jack Straw, the Justice Secretary at the time, gave Shields a Royal Pardon, the first for any British Citizen who had been convicted overseas. Straw claimed he had been made aware of “new evidence” but would not reveal what it was. The pardon came three weeks after news emerged that Shields’ father was planning to stand against Straw for his Blackburn seat, and would have received huge backing from Liverpool fans. A Royal Pardon is not the same as being not guilty of the crime but merely being forgiven for it, yet Shields has never attempted to clear his name, despite the supposed “new evidence” that apparently convinced Straw of his innocence.
Heysel
On May 29th 1985, 39 people died in the Heysel Stadium after Liverpool fans charged at a wall which collapsed. The stadium wasn’t fit to host a game of this magnitude, the European Cup final between Juventus and Liverpool, and Liverpool fans used this as their excuse. It wasn’t their fault that those fans died, it was the fault of the stadium.
Tony Evans at The Times, a Liverpool supporter who was at Heysel, touched on the denial more recently in his article “Our Day Of Shame”.
[Many Everton fans] feel that in some way they are the real victims of that dreadful day because their title-winning team could not play in the European Cup the next season. It taunted Liverpool supporters, some of whom still feel that they had nothing to do with the deaths of 39 people on that May night nearly 20 years ago. “A wall collapsed, that was all.” I have said it and heard it countless times. Except it is a lie.
Evans claimed that many Liverpool fans were still angry after attacks by Roma fans when they played in a victorious European Cup final the year before.
After the game, Rome erupted in rage, and the bloody events around the Olympic Stadium left everyone who was there — and those who had only heard talk of what happened — determined not to suffer again at the hands of Italian ultras. “The Italians won’t do that to us again,” was a refrain repeated in the weeks since the semi-final. It was not a matter of revenge. It was a wariness, a fear that built itself up to an enormous rage that would spill out at the slightest perceived provocation. The anger was palpable.
In conclusion, again discussing Liverpool’s attempt to relieve themselves of any blame, Evans concedes that they were at fault.
We limped home, quickly throwing off any shame, repeating the mantra that it was a construction problem, just a wall collapsing, hiding from the scale of what had happened. The disaster has a long causal chain — stabbings and beatings in Rome, hair-trigger tempers, aggression on both sides, excessive drinking, poor policing and a stadium ripe for disaster. Remove any one link and the game may have passed off peacefully. But it didn’t. So, Evertonians sing, with pathetic self-pity, “Thirty-nine Italians can’t be wrong.” Well they weren’t. We were. I was.
It wasn’t just the fans who denied they were at fault though. The official line from the club, as voiced by the chairman at the time, John Smith, was that Chelsea fans in the crowd were the cause of the deaths, not Liverpool fans. On the 19th anniversary of Heysel, Red and White Kop published some accounts of fans who at the game.
“Some lads had newspapers, they did not make nice reading. Painted as the scum of the earth by everybody who had anything to say, there was no real understanding of what had gone on, I don’t think there is to this day. John Smith had told reporters that he believed the trouble to be the fault of ‘Chelsea fans’ – it was nonsense, clutching at straws. There had been fans of other clubs there, there always is in major cup finals, but not in any significant numbers.”
Always the victim, it’s never your fault.
——
The press have told us the song is about Hillsborough, not even attempting to provide a rational argument concerning what else it could be about. I am now being told by the papers that when I’ve sung that song for months, what I have actually been singing about is Hillsborough. How on earth can out of touch journalists, who have no clue about the ill-feeling between rival fans, determine what I am singing about, what you are singing about? They know us better than we know ourselves, apparently.
Likewise, I’m not going to make the same mistake of saying that every single United fan who sings that song is coming from the same state of mind as me. I can’t categorically say there aren’t some United fans, that idiotic minority, that may sing the song with thoughts of Hillsborough in mind. For that reason, it was stupid for fans to sing it on Saturday, as even though your intention might not be to mock Hillsborough, it is easy to draw conclusions that singing “it’s never your fault” is in direct reference to what Liverpool fans have been saying about what happened in Sheffield for the past 23 years. The fans who may sing the song with Hillsborough in mind would argue that Liverpool fans had been singing about Munich for years before Hillsborough happened. The picture above shows a “Munich 58″ banner displayed by the Liverpool fans in the Heysel Stadium before the tragic events unfolded and obviously before Hillsborough too. But seriously, is that the best we’ve got? They started it? They were proper scum bags for mocking Munich for decades, it was sick and twisted, but is that justification for our fans to behave equally as badly? Of course not.
Whilst the media and clubs can bang on about how it’s time for the chants to stop, they are fighting a losing battle. There will always idiots on both sides who have little respect for their own dead and will use jibes of Munich/Hillsborough to provoke a reaction. The release of the Hillsborough files won’t stop that. Do you think the people who sing about Hillsborough care less that Liverpool fans weren’t at fault? The eight players who died at Munich weren’t at fault for the plane crashing, what difference did that make to Liverpool fans laughing at their deaths?
That song isn’t “mocking” Hillsborough though and I imagine there were plenty of reds who sang it on Saturday who were scratching their heads when they heard that’s what they were being accused of. The fact that some may interpret it as a dig at Hillsborough means that we should have skipped past it following the “racist bastard” chant last weekend though. Whilst the vast majority of people in the ground wouldn’t even think about mocking Hillsborough, there will be some who would, and now we’ve all been lumped in with them, regardless of our intentions or feelings about the song.
You’d like to think that the journalists in this country have just been too lazy to think of the alternative and the real motives behind the song, taking a dig at the scouse mentality, but surely they can’t all be that incompetent? It can’t just be a coincidence that every time Everton fans are heard singing it on derby day that it never gets reported. We won’t be seeing an “Everton fans mock Hillsborough on day of shame” headline any time soon. It doesn’t suit the agenda. If journalists acknowledge that Everton fans sing the song they will then have to acknowledge the song isn’t about Hillsborough. They’ll print anything to sell a story, whether it’s true or not, and that’s something we’re all a victim of.
Man Utd News 24/7
United to win 3-1.
A tremendous rant, Scott the Red!
This is by far the best article on this topic in print, anywhere.
The journos that claim we are inciteful, are themselves the guilty party. They deliberately distort the truth with the absolute intention of causing suffering. Why? To sell copy, and to create more anger, resentment and reaction, in order to have more to write about next week. Again, to sell more copy.
Oh dear… This isn’t going to be pretty….
Oh, and top post. Good read, thanks for that.
you’re an irresponsible.
Will the liverpool fans who will be coming on this thread engage in a healthy argument and address the issues and not just insult scott?
Excellent rant by the way
This is self-serving nonsense. What isn’t satisfactorily explained is why it was being sung in the immediate aftermath of the publication of The Independent Panel Report, in defiance of the manager’s wishes in a home game against Wigan. Nobody can excuse the inexcusable.
Ferguson himself condemned the unfair timing of these chants, after the panel’s findings emerged on wednesday, unveling a gigantic cover up by media and autorithies. On Sunday Liverpool & Manchester United together will remember the ’96 innocents Who lost their lives for a football match. MOVE ON. MOVE ON. What’s the point of this utterly pile of venom?? What’s the point with Heysel? What’s the pont against Liverpool’s city? Many of people of Liverpool, THE MOST MAJORITY OF THE LIVERPOOL’S PEOPLE with which I did exchange opinion are self aware of the Heysel Tragedy, and Tony Barrett speaks for himself, not for the whole city of Liverpool. It was the hooliganism era for the whole country, although the ancient stadium was one of the main reasons. MOVE ON. It’s in the past, What’s the point with Heysel? We’re talking ’96 innocent lives. What’s your point then in mentioning Heysel? What’s your point of view? ’96 innocent lives can die only because 43 innocent lost their lives at Heysel? MONE ON and stop with this utterly bile of venom, and move on with the whole Suarez affaire. You’re an irresponsible.
http://www.espn.co.uk/football/sport/story/170837.html?CMP=OTC-RSS
MOVE ON. Irresponsible.
An absolute Brilliant article Scott.
Top Top read. Bring on the scouse Bastards
Well done Scott. Pity the media in general can’t show similar perspective.
Brilliant Scottt. So true!
Dreadedred
Morning to you too mate!
Honestly it’s not about Wayne being fit for anfield or not as you lot mentioned he tends to have his crappiest games reserved for that stadium. I just want him fit and ready with a couple of minutes already under his belt for Stoke. That’s gonna be a tough game, and with the physicality of things Wayne is much better suited than RVP or Kagawa to take charge of our front line. Him n Welbeck to do a job, with Chico coming in as a late sub. That’s what’ll do it i thinkk!
Add.
Benitez takes a side to top of the league in January 09 and gets his fachts out, and slides down the league until he gets the sack 18 months later – blame hicks and gillet
Kkkenny spends boat loads of cash of crap – blame Damien Comoli
It’s never your fault
Excellent piece but preaching to the converted sadly.
There has been some really poor journalism this week. Emotive words to gain a response appears more important than facts
Excellent read, thanks, although as you say it would have been better not to sing that chant at the weekend.
From a Liverpool fan here are two things that might interest you:
Oliver Kay: Warped tribalism insults forgotten victims
http://pastebin.com/dRvQbFR7
My Open letter to Utd fans:
http://breakfastpercy.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/hillsborough-footballs-self-esteem-open.html
Unbelievable piece Scott
Heysel was 1985, not 1989.
If “always the victims..”.refers to Heysel than it has to relate to Hillsborough as the timeframe for your view of the liverpudlian sense of persecution seems to start in 1985
‘its a lame excuse to say 1000s of united fans are cherry picking events from 1985-2011 and intentionally omitting Hillsborough.
This is what I have been saying for days. The chant has not been rare and clearly started after the Suarez / Evra incident. To those saying move on, all Scott is doing is defending the fans who have been tarnished by a media eager for a negative story. Media sources made accusations they cannot back up and they did it to incite tension this weekend and for no other reason. What are united fans supposed to do this weekend if chants of “there’s only one lying bastard” start? Stay quiet?
in addition, the use of Always and never in that little ditty is pretty all encompassing. there is no get out to say it refers to one thing and not the other.
maybe you need a little rewording to ensure everyone understands that Hillsborough is not included in the events that are captured by scousers being Always the victims and thats its Never their fault.
Scott, I take your point in this article. However I wish you would emphasise the following point more, possibly in a separate article:
“But seriously, is that the best we’ve got? They started it? They were proper scum bags for mocking Munich for decades, it was sick and twisted, but is that justification for our fans to behave equally as badly? Of course not.”
That way you may influence some of your readers to think twice about singing such a song at the current time. Three related points spring to mind that could also be pointed out:
-it is not surprising that the media reacted in the way you describe – we all know the media is lazy and loves an easy headline.
-as Manchester United fans we have the opportunity to prove we are the better man. That we are a fanbase of class, funny and loud and always behind our team. Show the respect that we all know is due to everyone caught up in Hillsborough, which like it or not is the whole of Merseyside. Then sing our hearts out for the lads on Sunday non-stop without anything that could even bring the tragedy to mind (but plenty to bring 19 to mind.)
-as Manchester United fans we also have the opportunity to focus on still relevant issues of how the establishment portrays and treats football fans in general – typified by South Yorkshire police’s appalling actions during and after Hillsborough. All the way from the police, the lazy media, through to the FA and Premier League standing aside while owners fleece fans.
” it was stupid for fans to sing it on Saturday, as even though your intention might not be to mock Hillsborough, it is easy to draw conclusions that singing “it’s never your fault” is in direct reference to what Liverpool fans have been saying about what happened in Sheffield for the past 23 years.”
That’s the issue, in a nutshell. I don’ think any United fan would dispute anything else you’ve said here, BUT last week and this week we don’t need this song out of respect for 96 families. And let’s be as big as our club about this. In no time at all there’ll be another dead chicken, but in the meantime let Manchester United fans stand in solidarity with the bereaved relatives in a moment of more positive remembrance that still won’t bring their brothers, sisters and kids back.
rick
Ferguson always tends to say something relating to the opponents in the next match. Knowing that it will be an emotional match Ferguson is trying to create and air of we are with you brother to soffen you up. Like he does with players. Before playing City a few years back it was Stephen Ireland this Stephen Ireland that. Before playing moskow it was Afinikeev (spelling). Before playing a team we often unsettle a player by making him think a great performance will warrant a move to United, usually the player picked is important for the opposing team but has issues where he cant handle the pressure. He fails, their team fails we win. Nothing is mentioned about that player again. Hell shit even the pat on the back and smile with Neuer was staged before us signing DeGea.
In regards liverpool, the passion to play us is still there and no one of your players are good enough to where the red shirt of Manchester rather its better to dampen the anger and passion against us and direct it to the tragidy that was, a perfectly good stadium tarnished by the blood of incestrious reprobates. Your team will be thinking too much about playing for others rather than playing for themselves. Grow up and realise you are being hooked.
great article scott, but no surprise that the media couldn’t be bothered to do their homework before releasing their articles or ‘stories’
truth and justice for the 96, long time coming
truth and justice for the shields affair, the evra affair and the disgrace of heysel still sadly lacking in the attitude of liverpool football club and its fans unfortunately….
“The Daily Express went with the headline: “Manchester United fans mock Hillsborough tragedy”. It’s incredible that they could publish an article with such an emotive, irresponsible, but most importantly, untrue headline.”
Feeling victimised, Scott?
Speaking as a scouse red – I think the message for all of us (us as well as you) is that we’ve got to stop this – there is no justification for any chants/references/songs about Munich, Heysel or Hillsborough – and with the spotlight on us all then why don’t we just support our own clubs and ignore all others.
I am so moved and thankful for the Sunderland, Everton and other shows of support over the last week and from the Mancs of my acquaintance I know they have their hearts in the right place too.
FFS this could have happened to any of us – it nearly happened to Spurs and Leeds fans at the same god-awful ground in previous years, so let’s just park all of the bile and bitterness and grow up please.
“and if you can’t differentiate between the deaths of human beings and the deaths of Liverpool fans”…You shouldn’t differentiate between them unless you think Liverpool fans aren’t humans and they deserve to die. Seems like the article is suggesting that.
nobody deserves to die.
It was a day for the families to have a closure. No point for this article to fan further unintentional hatred and unnecessary diversion.
Man Utd fans have more class than this. So terribly sad with this inconsiderate article. I hope the families and people affected will never come to read this.
Phil
“But seriously, is that the best we’ve got? They started it? They were proper scum bags for mocking Munich for decades, it was sick and twisted, but is that justification for our fans to behave equally as badly? Of course not.”
Of course it is, an eye for an eye you fag. Your the breed fo person that oversees the soft handling of some of the scumiest fuckers ever to be put on the face of this earth and consistantly bow down to every demand making a mockery and striking fear into the hearts of normal folk.
^The direction of the above passage cannot be directed to any group of people as my opinion comes with a labotomy.
If someone fucks your wife and you have the opertunity to fuck his as you are both grieving for broken relationships are you trying to tell me she will never have it as good?
If someone punches you on the nose in the pub your going to turn the other cheek. (If so please come to papa)
Get a grip. They mock Munich. A plane crash. No United fan or player stormed the cockpit and decided to have a joy ride. It happened to them. Heysel, Hillsbrough and this Shields lad was a result of scummy scousers fucking running amock.
You dont call a rape victim a slag but you do call the rapist a perverted cunt. Unless you belong to aforementioned unnamed group through fear of going down a hat size.
The bigger question is why any supporters would sing about a team that aren’t even in the stadium.
Pretty small time.
I agree with the points made and the fact that you are setting the media and the record straight in regards to the many fans that were singing, but not about Hillsbrough.
Having said that we need to be careful. The timing of the chants is poor and fans should show they are bigger than that.
Look at Suarez- Liverpool fans have tried to justify his use of the word against Evra by saying it was not intended as an insult. I try to judge people on their intentions but regardless of whether or not Suarez did mean it as an insult (I think we know the answer) people generally agree that it was ill advised and he ought to have known it was inappropriate. I think it is the same with the fans’ chants that could be misinterpreted because of the timing and they should have been avoided.
There are plenty of other things we can use to mock Liverpool that cannot be misinterpreted. Just one example- http://www.talksport.co.uk/magazine/features/2011-06-29/steven-gerrards-premature-premier-league-title-predictions
Spot On Scott……
Let me get this straight, Man utd fans are livid at the press for telling lies, untruths, listen to yourselves, 96 Liverpool families have put up with such lies for 23 years, and on a much grander, emotional scale than, we sang a song that was misconstrued.
Well its terrible when someone says something that’s not true is it not.
Try it for 23 years.
HA! Knobend.
From a LFC fan….
With reference to the chants on Saturday I can only give the benefit of the doubt to your explanation of meaning and have of course have first hand experience of the media printing bare faced lies can only say I wont be surprised if they had done so again.
However there a few points I feel I should raise, regarding anti hillsborough chants I have been at many LFC/MUFC matches at anfield and have heard several chants of “you killed your own fans” and “if it wasn’t for the scousers we could stand” from the away support while I agree with your comment about every club havin a minority of morons who let the club down these chants have been form the majority of if not the entire away section at anfield. These are blatantly obvious chants about Hillsborough and are obviously inflammatory.
Secondly while I agree the t-shirt issue regarding Suarez was a PR disaster I would point out the t-shirts were worn before the game against Wigan at the JJB on November 2011 after he was initially charged NOT after he was found guilty. While I’m not saying it was right at any point in the proceedings saying it was after being found guilty is innacurate and does not paint a true picture of the club or the squad.
Finally about Heysel while I was not there I have family members who were, the points about sub standard stewarding are correct, my uncle walked in unchallenged into the Juve end wearing a LFC scarf swapped his scarf with a Juve fan walked out and back into the LFC end. There is evidence that goes back prior to the disaster that covers the state of disrepair the stadium was in and the game should never have been held there in the first place. BUT none of the above excuses the fact that it was an LFC fan who threw the first brick after the wall collapsed which caused much of the disorder in the stand after the wall collapsed. While LFC fans cannot be held accountable for all of the 39 deaths it would have been considerably less had the minority not behaved in such a horrific manner.
I cannot comment on Michael Shields etc as I don’t know enough about the details.
I like the author like and enjoy the rivalry and banter between our 2sets of fans and I just hope that the majority and not the minority rule when it comes to fan behaviour not just this weeken but at all fixtures in the future.
JFT96
What a bizarre, rambling piece. For the record, I have been going to everton matches for over 20 years and I have never heard evertonians singing that ‘always the victims’… chant. Probably because a fair number of their friends and families died that day too. As for the ’39 Italians’… Chant, again it’s new to me but then I wasn’t going to matches in the mid eighties when these chants probably were used. Thankfully it’s not something I’ve heard in the past 20 years that I’ve been going.
Great article Scott, I hope some of the journos stumble upon on this read.
Well said Scott. Anyone with an ounce of an open mind will get it.
Hopefully as an LFC fan, I won’t get too much stick! It’s very difficult to comment without taking sides – one of the other ‘comments’ let’s say is rather unpleasant towards ‘scousers’ -like we’re just one homogenous mass off ideals, attitudes, and I presume criminality! Do I accept the song was not about HIllsborough? Of course – well put Scott. However I think the overwhelming negativity towards ‘us’ showed a little bias in reporting. I’m a bit different I suppose – I came to Manchester as a medical student in 1982, and have remained here since. It still irks me when folk back at home talk in a negative way about ‘Mancs’, almost spitting venom in the process. We live 30 miles apart, and we all love the beautiful game. Surely we have more in common than differences. I won’t take my young kids to the ManU game -it’s just not a healthy atmosphere for children -for anyone in fact. In our situation ‘bury the hatchet’ may be the wrong phrase, but can’t the tension between us lesson somewhat? It’s not like we’re much of a threat on the pitch any more! I have loads of friends, and loads of my patients (I’m a GP in Manchester), and we discuss footy as something that brings us together rather than dividing. Anyone else feel they can move on?
Well said Scott. The press will print anything to sell paper.
I was at the game Saturday and I joined in the chants, this was to do with many liverpools fans I know mocking united all the time and always using excuses about referrees and the FA favouring United. Not once did Hillsborough cross my mind during the chants, even though Liverpool are our “Enemy” I still respect the club and relatives of the dead from the disaster. I’m almost certain neally every United fan was aiming their chants towards Suarez as other chants were used about him all game.
Excellent read. Telling it like it is.
Fantastic article. What always strikes me about them is the complete disregard for the true victims. Take Georgiev – you would imagine that a club that constantly portrays itself as the Guardian of Truth and Rightful Justice would see fit to do something for this poor man, who had his life changed forever. We know it was a Liverpool fan who attacked him, that’s never been in doubt. So have they ever offered any sympathies, financial assistance or – gasp – an apology? Of course not. Their entire campaign centred on Michael Shields, the poor lamb convicted in an EU nation’s court of law after a fair trial. Not one single, solitary thought was ever given to the man who had his head caved in with a paving slab by a Liverpool fan. Where were the Georgiev T-shirts? In desperately trying to prove Shields’ innocence, based on nothing more than the brilliant legal defence of ‘because he’s a scouser’, why has the club never publicly apologised to Georgiev and offered their full assistance to find the real culprit? Answer: because in the entire affair, Liverpool the club and Liverpool the city saw itself as the victim. Utterly despicable.
I’ve tried twice to explain, via the invited comments on the Daily Mail website, the hows, whens, whys and wherefores of the ‘Always the victims’ chant. Surprise, surprise, neither has been published.
I’ve told them that the chant was the 2nd verse of the ‘Luis Suarez, you know what you are’ song, I’ve told them that it was first sung, spontaneously, in the 2nd half at Fulham last December 21st, after we’d heard about the Liverpool squad all going out — including Dalglish — in the white Suarez tee-shirts for their game at Wigan that same night. They wore these tee-shirts the day after Suarez’s ban was announced.
I also told the Mail that, in the first half at Fulham, there had been chants of ‘Justice for Evra’ as we celebrated that, indeed, justice had been meted out for what all right-minded people agree is a despicable act.
I told the Mail that the ‘Always the victims’ chant that night had nothing whatsoever to do with Hillsborough, and — as far I’m concerned — has to this day never had any relevance to Hillsborough.
I told the Mail that I, like at least 99.99 per cent of United fans, openly applauded last week’s revelations over the disgrace of Hillsborough, and told them how we admired our Red rivals from the other end of the East Lancs for their relentless pursuit of the justice they have finally deservedly received.
But did the Mail want to know? Did they hell. They didn’t wants the facts to spoil a good story.
They don’t want peace or respect to break out. They prefer it if there is hatred and bile, which could ultimately lead to blood on the streets around Anfield or Old Trafford.
I am extremely angry about the way the United fans have been wrongly and maliciously portrayed simply to justify an easy and lazy headline. Yet I don’t want us to suddenly adopt the victim status — even though we have been wronged — that has maligned the Scousers for years.
It was lies and lazy journalism, 23 years worth of them, that added so much to the pain and grief that Merseyside has suffered. I think newspapers should take a long hard look at themselves and ask why they are still doing it, only this time their target is United fans.
Nothing would please me more than if I were to hear a genuine ‘Justice for the 96′ chant ringing out from the Stretford End when I go tonight. Then again, knowing our press, I’m sure they would try to twist it into something it’s not.
Justice for the 96, Truth and justice.
You forgot in your bit about Shields that he was welcomed to Anfield as a guest of honour on his release, and the MOTD cameras picked him out and made some fawning comment about him! Unbelievable.
JUSTICE FOR MICHAEL! JUSTICE FOR STEVIE G! JUSTICE FOR POLITICIAN (YES, I read that line on RAWK)! JUSTICE FOR SUAREZ!
juts like i told u before, the Livercunts “SOLD” justice cheaply….
Tosh.This chant has been doing the rounds since 2006 and is used to specifIcally refer to Heysel,although the Suarez issue has now been encompassed into it as well.Lets not pretend otherwise.And it is not sung by a minority either.It saddens me to hear Liverpool chants being sung at matches that have nothing to do with them.Why do we do it?.Shouldnt we be singing about our own team not them?.Why are we so obsessed with them?.I find it’s pathetic and embarrassing frankly.
As for Hillsborough anyone that refers to this tragedy in a chant is seriously deranged.This goes beyond football,it could have been us for gods sake.
This is one of the best articles i have read on this site. It shows as a nation we believe everything that is written in the papers and condemn straight away.
Top Article!
Heysel was in 1985., but otherwise it’s a brilliant article.
What about the Kop banners about Heysel. They taunt Everton – http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opinion/columnists/simon-mullock/Why-Liverpool-fans-should-Kop-the-flak-for-their-tasteless-Bucharest-banner-Simon-Mullock-column-article320777.html
hate you shower of feckers with a passion but that was an interesting look at some of our history from a different viewpoint.
All of the fellow reds (the ones i know) don’t think that the “victims” song is purely about Hillsborough, but it is in the essence of the song as you have pointed out.
i (we) don’t have a problem with the song but a weeks rest would do everyone some credit.
Liverpool fc are pleased to announce all home supporters will be provided with ear muffs,lashings of ginger beer and sticky buns, hooray!!!!
This article even made my local rag this morning in cork,ireland.One liverpool fan calling for this site to be disabled by alex ferguson.And also rep of mancunia should not be dragging everton fans into this as they do not condone this song.Oh roll on sunday!!!!
FOR ALL OF YOUR GRAMMATICAL PROWESS YOU’VE MADE ONE HUGE MISTAKE ! ! !
You talk about how the chant is not about Hillsborough . . .
Then go on to list every other travisty involved with Liverpool. Suarez, Shields Heysel etc. etc.
Why omit Hillsborough from that list ?
Other than to make your article sound correct and to trying to improve UTD Fan’s reputation after the recent chanting.
You cannot blame the average guy in the street from connecting the words in your chant to the recent media attention and public divulsion of Hillsborough families struggle and ultimately the verdict.
You are dressing things up and by doing so are as bad as the people chanting these words in the first place (however you you to “selectively” attribute them to.
RIP Munich victims, RIP Hillsborough victims and RIP Heysel victims – Long live Football !!!
As a Liverpool fan I have always despised the Munich chant and spoke out against it but for heavens sake show a bit of class and let it rest on Sunday. You can dance all you want on the head of a needle saying its about this and not this but please just let it rest for the sake of both clubs
I see fat Martin Samuel, the world authority on everything, has had another pop at the United fans in today’s Mail.
I was at Fulham the night the chant was first sung. So I know the truth. But Samuel knows the real story, because he was talking to a taxi driver, who had picked up a customer who has a friend who is married to the cousin of the barman who had heard from one of his regulars that had been chatting to a mate at the bookies and reckoned that it could have been about Hillsborough. Never mind the truth or the facts, just print the story.
First off, top top article Scott. Everything goes out the window during this North West showdown. All the gloves are off and any hope of respect during 90 minutes of play is absent. It’s almost guaranteed that there will be something written about one section saying something nasty about the other because that’s how the media will always spin it and take the focus off the match itself. United can sing “We’ll Do What We Want”, “19 Time and That’s a Fact”, etc and that will provoke enough vitrol to spark hate towards each side. Welcome to Manchester United v Liverpool.
As a complete neutral I find it amazing that United fans so much time chanting about Liverpool. I have been to OT and Anfield and the difference is stark. At Anfield theo nly time United get a mention is when they play there, otherwise they are ignored. Howvever at OT you would think Liverpool were the away team no matter who United are playing. I wonder why this is so?
Very well written Scott. “Always the Victim” has been suddenly presented as a Hillsborough song. The manager mentioned this and was right to remind people where it originated. It was always about Suarez, and probably Heysel, but the last thing I’d associate it with is Hillsborough. Everybody knew what happened that day at Wednesday. If anybody picked pockets and urinated on the dead it was the police.
But breaking down the report and/or spelling out the issues between our two Clubs isn’t high on the media agenda funnily enough. They’d rather make all supporters look like thick cunts worthy of being kettled and battered by the police for our own protection.
Fuck off. Every Club should stand with those who fought for decades to know the truth about Hillsborough. Yeah, you’ve got lads saying the report doesn’t change Heysel and that is fair enough. But Heysel doesn’t change Hillsborough tho does it?
And thats the fucking point. Hillsborough is the issue right now and Hillsborough will be in the thoughts of the millions who tune in to watch. Not to sound high and mighty (or whatever) but FFS be on the right side of history when we look back on this.
Don’t be a washed up, confused cunt like Dalglish standing there in a “Suarez” T-shirt.
Why should Manchester United be associated with blaming the poor bastards who were killed that day anyway? Respect the 96, if not from the heart at least for one fucking match. Its not in the interest of our Club to mitigate the police and politicians in any way shape or form. The media will be doing plenty of that. They’ve already started FFS.
UTID
LFC have been mocking Munich for decades, picture above proves this, well before Hilsborough happened. They are a bunch of anging fucking cunts, i respect the lost souls but i DO NOT respect anything to do with that dirty fucking horrible club and fans.
FUCK EM.
Here’s some alternative reading on Michael Shields as well:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/theobserver/2007/jun/03/features.magazine37
Not to let a guilty confession by the perpetrator and many failings in the investigation process get in the way of some Liverpool-bashing though.
Like Hillsborough, The Michael Shields case was an example of Liverpool fans fighting for justice, not sympathy or pity, whether you agree with those involved or not.
United Till I Die says:
“but FFS be on the right side of history when we look back on this.
Don’t be a washed up, confused cunt like Dalglish standing there in a “Suarez” T-shirt. ”
________________________________________________________________________
Was gonna stay out of this entirely. But I think this is the best, most succinct summary of the situation I’ve read.
Really well said.
Great stuff ,
Hee Haw check this out guys. Gloom Dispair and agony on me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ5ob9B9yD4
The chanting will never stop between our clubs and wez619 – you have done exactly what the article is about with your Hysel comment – yes you are accountable LFC fans started a riot – never to blame – moron
The 96 who died were innocent ticket holders, men, women, boys, girls robbed of life a situation you probably couldn’t imagine – the ones who caused the surge were ticketless scum. Yes the stadium in Sheffield was shit, I’ve been there many times to see United and we were so packed in it was awful, God knows what it was like for the poor people who died.
The media have conveniently forgotten about the CCTV footage that was shown all the time on the news bulletins showing this mob breaking down the gate to get in and thus overwhelming the small number of police. Cause and effect . Now this footage is not my imagination or just me being a RED – this point is also made on several blogs, Aston Villa etc.
Why has this footage gone missing – political appeasement
Top post from Scott. This is just baiting from the media and should properly be condemned.
Ben Smith could well be blamed for starting it. But the fact that the BBC ran with it leaves me with a very sour taste in my mouth. Don’t they educated reporters these days. Isn’t just this type of inaccurate headline that started the lengthy mess for the Hillsborough families.
Ben Smith should be vilified.
Refreshing from MUST. This is the type of thing that they should be doing and must say this statement is well done. Would like to see at least one more statement from MUST unequivocally putting United as offering un reserved support for the Hillsborough families and supporting the the two clubs efforts to commemorate the new report this weekend.
The fact that Vidic and Gerrard (the two club captains) will jointly launch a moving tribute should be embraced by both sets of fans.
Everyone who goes to that game has a responsibility to act in the highest traditions of their clubs.
Both clubs were really let down by these reporters, Ben Smith first and foremost, who got their stories wrong.
good read
“you killed your own fans,
you killed your own fans,
one day in sheffield,
you killed your own fans”
thats not hillsborough either, right?
Fair play to all the liverpool supporters here. But the major problem I have with the way they are going about the shield, heysel and suarez issue. Fine they have got the justice they deserve but what about the Georgiev and heysel issue? Don’t they deserve justice? People also depended on these people! I hope to be there for the match but if I’m there I won’t see anything wrong anyone singing this particular chant because it is not about hillsborough but liverpools refusal to accept responsibility for their actions. As for the press I don’t know why they expect us to be the new best buddies of the scousers and forget all the shit and urine throwing we have suffered from them without forgetting the Munich songs.
@KMILL
Was that sung on Saturday at Old Trafford?
Paul your wrong! people in liverpool know who dropped the slab on the waiter,fans came
forward all with the same name which i cant remember ,the young fella handed himself
into the police who didnt want to know because the the bulgarians had found someone
( an innocent young lad ) guilty and was serving time for a crime he did not commit,as for
the waiter he recieved compensation for his head injuries and made a full recovery and
was soon out and about enjoying life to the full.One more point scott made while trying
to paint man united fans as puritans and defenders of righteousness,you use the the phrase
“yes we hate scousers” i find that laughable because wayne rooney was born in liverpool
which if am not correct makes rooney a scouser ! I on the other hand can hold my hands
up and state that being from liverpool i dont hate manchester people who are on the whole
similar bunch of people with good and wrongins alike,though i must stress that when in
manchester i only ever come across man city fans who are the salt of the earth,i do state
here my truth and that i detest any manchester united fan i come across and that is the
way it should always be,but i would never sing about dead people (munich plane etc)
because thats just sick and twisted,we will never get on and i dont give a t.ss! but when
it comes to singing about tragedies be it Hillsbourough or Munich the culprits need a
good slapping!
so did ticketless liverpool fans break into the stadium, i’m confused as this wasn’t mentioned in the evidence provided last week?
was their cctv to confirm this, i’m sure i remember seeing this at the time
Ok
Sir Alex says we should vote labour so we all do
Sir Alex says to Cathy I love you before he leaves the door, so we all must?
Bolox
Stop appologising for doing what you want to do. If you despise liverpool and their whining whinging ways then tell them, sing it as load as you can and those that dont like it, suck it up.
Yes you killed your own fans is about Hillsbrough, yes always the victims and never your fault is about Hillsbrough. Of course it can also be attributed to many a crime the scousers would never admit to so it can be sung by those who dont want to mock Hillsbrough. But those that do, dont appologise. We have freedom speech in this country. Those that dont like it can tell you, can punch you on the nose, but first theyve got to stop blubbering like wee faggits, eat something, become a man and then do a bit of training. Until then sing to your hearts content.
Yup…RIP Munich victims, RIP Hillsborough victims and RIP Heysel victims – Long live Football…and let Liverpool get relegated!!!
Redseven
Yes they did and there was but it has suddenly gone missing and probably won’t come to light for about 50 years!!
Only am idiot would not consider the chant miss timed due to the possibility of it being taken out if context. I detest the scouse but as for the chant. Right now , I would not use it out if respect got united and myself as much as the scouse.
The media are always looking to cause a stir. Maybe now they have a real story , regarding the two unfortunate WPC’s we will gain some perspective on both sides and the media .
For Liverpool fans who made comments and suggesting that we shouldn’t sing it this week at Anfield, please read the article. If the chants were never about Hillborough, why shall we not sing it this week at Anfield?
You still try to stir it as if the chants were about Hillsborough. Unbelieveble, its never your fault, indeed!
I really don’t see the need for this epic. Why rake up eveything that Liverpool have had a hand in? Why not talk also about your own misgivings such as The drug ban on you know who or possibly the flying karate kick on supporters or maybe the life threatening attck from Rooney on another player.
Your article is nothing short of encitement and you should be more aware of your comments. We all know what is history and we do not have a need to throw it out there just before an important match at Anfield. Even your own manager is trying to cool things but lets face it, he’s not helped by your two peneth worth
Little Red
cheers fella, which means the full truth and the full picture of what happened on the day still hasn’t been told, hardly balanced and unbiased then.
maybe if charges are brought and it goes to court we may see this video evidence resurface.
RIP the 96 and burn in hell the ticketless scum that set the chain of events in motion
This is really and alas quite ironic and almost bordering on the laughable. As an independent football supporter ( i.e neither MUFC nor LFC) I can say these chants will continue. The people using them have no intention ever of ceasing such childish behaviour.
Costas – dates back to long before this week.
it seems we live in a time where everyone is absolving themselves of wrongdoing or blame.
the fact is that all fans from all clubs have always sung horrible songs about and to each other. Its not just scousers who sing about munich or mancs who sing about hillsbor….sorry, heysel.
a peaceful sunday would be welcome, but its a sticking plaster on a much wider issue of respect and acceptability at football. It shoud be all about the game (and a few beers), sadly certain aspects stoke it up to more than that, and even more sadly, too many take the bait.
Keywords here are ‘always’ and ‘never’. Anyone hearing that chant is bound to assume that it refers to Hillsborough as well, hence the word ‘always’.
I like the chant too and have sung it more than once, but was it really necessary two days after the Hillsborough announcement? Tasteless.
You mentioned Everton fans singing it in the past but not doing it this weekend- tht really is the point everyone is trying to convey. The chant may refer to Heysel and Suarez, no one really has problem with it, but we should show some semblance of dignity at a time like this.
As a Liverpool fan I disagree with alot. As a football fan I disagree with less. What I find fascinating, and always have, is the issue of perspective. Something always looks different when looked at from a different point. This is one of the things I love about supporting sport of all kinds, especially football.
BUT… and this is a very big BUT.
But there is a line that does not need to be crossed. If a fan has to use situations from another clubs past which involve the death of anyone then that fan is not wanted and should go do something else. I also include the racist issues of the last few seasons. If we were to look deeper and more honestly all clubs should be ashamed of their actions in the past (and I dont mean the last two seasons). I also include Liverpool fans too. I include all fans.
Are you telling me there is not enough intelligence and humour among both sets of fans that we can’t all come up with better things to sing and banners to produce. And I am being very serious here so no remarks about the iq of other teams fans (players yes haha,). And with social media being what it is can we not get these sings to our own fans.
I love nothing more then a good banter with Utd fans (well most of them) – still can’t understand why they support Utd but I am sure the feeling is the same with them.
I also thought the banner the Utd fans brought to Anfield when they weren’t even playing was devious…but fair play..
So lets all get together and laugh at each other.
Just a few thoughts which I am sure I am going to be abused for but…. at the end of the day there are more important things than football.
crazyhorse – tell me one thing Liverpool the football club or the city has ever done for Georgiev. Then tell me what they’ve done for Michael Shields. Compare the two, and then tell me who the victim was.
Liverpool have been responsible for numerous tragedies down through the years!! cilla black.les dawson,jimmy tarbuck,ken dodd,paul o grady,les dennis,ricky smell of piss tomilson,and john fuckin bishop!!!
I’ve stayed away from all the Hillsborough cover up because the fact that it was a cover up isn’t news to me because I don’t rate authority in general. I saw first hand at the warehouse parties of the late ’80s up Blackburn way the lengths the Police will go to and I’ve also read the lies in the Sun the day after. When 10,000 of us were packed into a dark warehouse with all but one access doors welded shut by the organizers (because it had to be done to keep the Police out), there was obviously a health and safety issue that could have been avoided if the Government didn’t want to stop people having a party. I’ve seen a lad in a wheelchair get truncheoned and also a warehouse emptied in panic as the police enter – once had to help a girl whose body had been forced through a doorway but her head was trapped against the door frame.
I watched Hillsborough that day and gradually it became clear the horror of what was happening and I became immediately suspicious of the Police, Authorities and fans. Anyway it turns out I was right to be suspicious of the Police and Authorities but what about the fans? Well those pushing from the back weren’t to know what was happening at the front (and alcohol exasperated the problem) but I think certain Liverpool fans should shoulder some of the blame too, as I accept part of the blame for those warehouse crushes I was a part of.
Those multiple hundreds of Pool fans who battered their way into the ground did not give a fuck for anybody ahead of them,it was I’m in so fuck you.
of course we would all move on seriously i am in TOTAL agreement with this wonderful rant.
Yesterday City fans were singing songs about Munich it has not appeared in ANY paper. Why? because Munich doesn’t matter to the news agencies. It’s all about what sells papers and currently a hillsborough story is a money maker in the media world.
This is typical of the British media who aim to take advantage of ANYTHING they can possibly get their hands on. Liverpool fans constantly sang songs about Munich before the tragedy in 89. They put up posters and banners. They believed they were doing the right thing when they sang these songs. and there was little to NO opposition to this
But now we sing a song clearly directed at the scouse mentality and they claim we are chanting about hillsborough.
Let me make this clear once again. It is never a good thing to mock someone who has died. In fact it is maybe more evil than killing someone. HOWEVER if the papers are chastising some of our fans for allegedly chanting about Hillsborough even though NOTHING to do with hillsborough was EVER mentioned then the media should be unbiased and dig up all the recent games where Munich songs have been chanted against us. Case in point? YESTERDAY.
I just hope United fans behave themselves when they get to Anfield on sunday. We don’t want any more killings. Just don’t retaliate. Leave them to their deeds. Please. Hopefully we can pull off a win there too. long overdue. phew. Ok. COME ON BOYS TONIGHT AND SUNDAY!!!!
Anyone tell me in which channel will be the match against Gala telecasted in India?
@redseven – don’t be confused ffs.
The report details everything LFC supporters did – including breaking into the ground . But ticketless fans who managed to get in didn’t cause the crush, and thats the whole fucking point of the report.
Any officer honest enough to blame senior policemen at the time was threatened to change their statement or else. These whistleblowers are the main proof of a police cover up and all their statements over the years are slap bang in the 2012 report. Thats why this is being called a fucking scandal.
The Government fully backed the cover up – when officers were ordered to accuse LFC supporters of all types of shit the media repeated the lies until it became “true” for those who wanted to believe it (or didn’t know better).
Look, say what you want about Heysel, carry a fucking banner to every game if you feel that strongly about it, but anybody who continues to blame LFC supporters for HILLSBOROUGH is deluded and a bit sad really.
So don’t be confused fella… man up to the fact you were lied to. The footage of fans breaking in was used to make the lie convincing. You’re not the only person who fell for it.
We are talking about HILLSBOROUGH, and on that topic the truth is laid out for the whole world to see in black and white. The police caused the deaths of the 96, and the politicians and media covered it up by blaming Liverpool supporters FOR DECADES.
Just to clarify, Liverpool fans did not charge at a wall in Heysel. They charged at a load of shit houses who had thrown broken off pieces of concrete from the terraces and fireworks at them.
Those shit houses ran further into the neutral end and the innocents near the wall died.
I take it Man Utd fans would have stood there and allowed their heads to be cut open as the rocks landed on them, taking it up the backside?
Yes Munich songs were sang in the 80s, as were Shankly songs by you lot.
http://www.freeimagehosting.net/3jvsy
I envision a load of palms to faces from Man Utd fans on Sunday.
It is good the media are reporting these chants and even the ones that have nothing to do with any disaster.
The Daily Mail was reporting on your ‘slums’ songs. Ironic as Salford is a crime ridden shit hole.
I think at the end of that post you almost convinced yourself those chants were aimed at Suarez. We all know they weren’t and that the chant was around well before then. Man Utd made the right move by apologising immediately after. That should have been it. In now attempting to deflect blame then the chant could equally be sung back.
Season ticket holder, Stretford End row 28 seat 300
Agree with the majority of this Scott, although you post far too many liverpool related articles!
Gotta say though i did wince abit when the crowd started with “Always the victims, its never your fault.” Yes, obviously it wasnt about Hillsborough, but at the same time theres a time to do it i just think it was ill-judged must say thought our fans would have thought of that. It just set us up as a club to be vilified by the press (as they would have being chomping at the bit to do!)
As much as i hate the police, i wouldnt today of all days start chanting “fuck the police” like i usually do after a few on a saturday night, after the lady coppers got killed.
Just thought it was ill-judged thats all, hope we dont sing it Sunday.
We have the best away fans in the country by an absoulte mile and i hope we give it loud about our love for United and give some shit to Suarez. But i think much respect should be shown to our hated-rivals this Sunday, it is there day and we fans on Sunday should represent our club as what we are, the greatest in the world and show respect. Yes we hate them, but sometimes your hated rival deserves the respect you would wish to recieve also.
Remember lads, Hillsborough could have being us. This is a football, human matter. Lets show our human side. We know what the song means and so do the cunting press but being Man United we’re never going to get a fair hearing and personally i think there’s an inside media/government agenda to try generate a hateful atmosphere from both fans on Sunday in order to push through George Orwell type legislations such as banning any form of hateful chanting and games like “We hate scousers” Their trying for it!
“Always the victim, its never your fault” can wait another week, dont you think?
@Little Red
Do you honestly reckon HM Government and Senior Police Officers are publically falling on their swords on behalf of a few working class scousers? Ha, what are you smoking?
Whitehall doesn’t give two fucks about working class Liverpool and you know it. They are admitting to the biggest police cover-up in recent memory because they have to as they are bang to rights.
As for the footage – the report states the police played the main role in what was reported at the time. They made sure you saw the footage of fans breaking into the ground, just like they made sure you DIDN’T see footage of policemen casually opening the huge exit gates that actually caused the 96 deaths.
Believe what you want mate, but suggesting that the police, the government and the media are all willing scapegoats for a few million piss poor working class scousers is the logic of a crack head.
The police don’t even accept responsibility when they hit children driving at 100mph down residential streets without sirens. They don’t accept responsibility for using disproportionate force. They don’t accept responsibility for deaths in custody.
Take my word for it, if they’ve accepted responsibility for HIllsborough its because they fucking have to. Besides, I’ll believe the rank and file who blew the whistle on the day of the tragedy before I believe the senior officers who covered up the truth for decades.
xol
from your text, last bit.
“Well those pushing from the back weren’t to know what was happening at the front (and alcohol exasperated the problem) but I think certain Liverpool fans should shoulder some of the blame too, as I accept part of the blame for those warehouse crushes I was a part of.”
How would the people at the back not know what was happening at the front. Maybe you should do a little physics experiment with your budies. Get 10 of you in a line. Have one man stand spread eagle arms length from a wall and to put his arms up against the wall, as if being frisked by the police. Scouser can try this and adopt the resting stance of the common scouse. Then the next man stands in the same possition and rests his hands on the man infronts shoulders. Repeat till all men are standing in a line. Now everyone push. Isnt it surprising how all the nine cant make the mans arms fold closest to the wall. They didnt know what they were doing. In order to create a crush like that they have to be barging. That is lifting, getting in under peoples arms and pushing their way violently to the front. This isnt a case of a mosh pit squeeze, this is reckless british bulldog in nature. Which scouser whilst doing this thought no one could possibly get hurt from this. Or maybe thats the thing. Maybe scousers didnt believe anyone would get killed but they certainly didnt give a fuck if someone would get the wind knocked out of them or hurt in some way.
So in summary, the scousers at the back didnt give a fuck if people got hurt, they didnt look to kill anyone even I could except that but with playing silly fekkers something sometime could always go wrong. No the police shouldnt have let in late comers but no one and no repport said the police where barging with horse power people to their demise. The scousers did that. Didnt know what they were doing, more like didnt care that much, fun was to be had.
As for your warehouse incident, Im truely sorry for your experience and hope you have come to terms with it. Your response of flight from an enclosed space in a time of danger is fully expected and 100% natural to those with the disposition (some people freeze). Its a far flung thing to compare (which you didnt do) flight from danger in an enclosed space to drunken boisterousness crush in and barging into a crowded space from a previously calm surrounding. (or calmer).
I am in two minds over this post. In normal circumstances I would agree, but that this bunch of fans in the Stretford end were singing it during a match having nothing to do with Liverpool, a day or two after the Hillsborough report, with the manager having specifically requested that we desist from any badmouthing, doesn’t sound very defensible to me. At best its a case of a handful of malicious, disrespectful, trouble making fans (and there are plenty of those at every club, including ours) deliberately starting the Suarez chants so everyone else would follow like sheep, or at worst, all of them chanting knew exactly what they were doing. And I for one wouldn’t give them the benefit of the doubt, because it seems like it was pretty well intended, happening 5 mins into the game. And also, just because media doesn’t focus as hard on other clubs’ fans resorting to disgusting chants and acts, doesn’t mean we sit here condoning ours. Context is something, and in this context, I don’t think there’s very much cause for defending the fans. It was at best insensitive and badly thought out, and at worst down right malicious, and either way it was unnecessary and wrong…
@Norman Hunter’s boots
Being an Italian, i hope i run into you one day you scouse cunt. Hillsborough wasnt your fault, but fucking Heysel was you bin-dipping cunt.
Excuses for everything!!!
VICTIM! VICTIM! VICTIM! VICTIM! VICTIM! VICTIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I would also like to add that if most United fans singing those songs were left “scratching their heads” at being accused of chanting about Hillsborough, they must be pretty downright stupid. Its context, stupid!
@RedTruth – Belting post 14:10. You made a lot of good points there. Spot on.
Who’s to say that if the chant didn’t happen at the Wigan game, that the media wouldn’t have picked up on it and claimed that United fans have singing about Hilsborough all along when shouting that chant at matches? That the only reason it wasn’t sung was because of the recent truths brought about by the inquiry and now we’re feeling guilty about it.
In all honesty it was probably a no win situation with the media from the start. What Scott the Red’s article is trying to do is simply show the tabloid media for what they are, a bunch of classless journalists who will publish any headline to provoke a response and sell papers. They’ve tried to tar us all with one brush and stain our clubs reputation, and this warrants a defence which I see this article as. I don’t agree with chants about tragedies that have happened in football, but at the same time I don’t agree with just lying down and accepting journalists blase attitude to articles and headlines these days that damage us all as United fans.
Just a quick thought. Have Liverpool fans ever considered that the reason this Tragedy and it’s coverup may be due to the fact they themselves denied responsibilty for the events at Haysel. They were directly at fault there and the stink it caused clearly didn’t go away. I’m not justifying the hillsbrough cover up or saying thy deserve it but maybe it’s becaus of their actions at Haysel and subsequent aftermath of denial that created an atmosphere that allowed for cOverup in the first place.
These so called journalists should focus on getting stories from victim families and determining why there was a cover up.
As for Heysel.
I watched this on tv and so did my dad and I remember discussing it with him alot. I was young at the time so actual image footage in my head is shaky.
Liverpool fans did charge the Juve fans but that was after the juve fans started throwing stuff. Who threw first is in reality neither here nor there. A man at one side of the trouble should not throw something at the opposing fans just because he saw at a distance one of their fans strike one of yours. Thats how riots start. The beginning of the chucking stuff is neither here nor there, that was tit for tat. The scousers charged at the Juve fans. Simply because 1. they were braver,2. they were more than likely bigger and 3. when someone takes the piss, your brow drops, you grit your teeth and then you charge for the kill. If United fans had have been there then they would have done the same. The wall collapsed but not one single Liverpool fan expected that in advance and as far as Im concerned it was an accident. The stadium was out dated, it was an accident in the heat of battle and by no means dont think it wasnt a batlle. My dad remembers seeing an Italian fan with a gun for fuck sake. I wont defend a scouse, hes ugly enough and stupid enough to get into his own trouble but I am also fair.
As far as Im concerned.
Hillsbrough was a stupid accident caused by late arriving drunken liverpool fans too boisterous to care about the consequences that sadly resulted in loss of life. The authorities were to blame for their part in a cover up but not for the actual crime. Yes there were issues with crowd safety and that had a huge role to play.
Heysel was a battle of fans. One set of fans were bigger and better at fighting and when tragedy strikes you often here the people afterwards blame the “victors” of war and feel sorry for their “victims” In this case I side with the scousers even though it was obvious that both parties went there with war in mind.
Suarez issue was stupid. Suarez used a word common in his own country in the heat of battle. It was offensive and completely unacceptable here in England. He should have appologised and so should the club. It just goes to show how bloody racist S.America is. But its no excuse. Poorly managed by the man Scouse fans have come to call King, The man who walked away from the Liverpool job because he despised what the fans did and then took the completely wrong path with Suarez. If hes a king then what a kingdom.
The shields issue was just like the Suarez issue, seige mentallity. Collect together as a group all face outwards and fight. An effective approach to doing battle but not always the right one. There is an issue of Innocent untill proven guilty in England and sometimes that gets people to stick together when in a tight nit group. Again not always the right option. Loyalty over doing the right thing. As for what the fans did then that was regretable and exactly what was threatened by a bunch of United fans on Rooney before he was due to sign for City. The rough element of the fan base and they rarely get things right because they are always brought up on the idea of righting wrongs and that means you have to be looking for trouble in the first place.
Also wasn’t it their manager Rodgers who started all this united blaming shit up? Like
Last week or whatever barely an hour
After the report and he was running his mouth about united and “vile” chants…..you’d think they would refrain from scoring cheap shots and make it about the families that suffered instead they made it about a football club….so pathetic really.
If anything the idiot journalist have created a bad atmosphere leading up to this weekends game. I had no doubts that united were
Planning some sort of
Tribute but this whole mess that they fabricated in the news leads me to worry about this game and the atmosphere that’s likely to prevail there
@united till i die
hey i’m not saying that the the ticketless morons caused everything, but they were part of the problem, just that i don’t remember hearing any of that last week, and it wasn’t mentioned in the media.
having not read the report front to back i’m not speaking from a position of being fully in the know, but only from a position of what i heard on the news and during the press conference with the hillsborough families.
and yes i understand that the main point of the investigation was to highlight the dispictable actions of the police, lying and covering up the real story, hand in hand with the feckless media and possibly the government.
if i’m confused its because of the slant given out by the media after recent revelations and stacking that up against what i’ve read,heard and seen previously
what i do know is that 96 innocents died because of the selfish actions of moronic ticketless fans and the lying slandering corrupt and inept police force, actions on both sides caused the disaster on that fateful day.
@RedTruth
Sorry to disappoint you, like most Liverpool fans I am not a scouser. (Man Utd fans can certainly relate to not being from Salford).
But you can always throw your abuse towards your hero scouser.
Does your hatred for LFC make you think you should pay more attention to a disaster that has nothing to do with the club you support?
I have come across many Italians who care not one jot about Juventus fans. In fact I have heard chanting praising that disaster. Teams across Italy hate Juventus and have taunted them for years over it.
And since when were ‘dippers’ victims?
United till i die @ 12:16. Well said. Think you speak for the majority of United fans.
I just find the whole idea of these bull shit tributes and emotional displays nauseating. It does nothing for the victims and only serves to make cunt over paid football stars and their clubs feel better about themselves.
Goat – if they knew what they were doing then bbbbbbbbbb
@JonnyCigarettes – strange, because many teams chant about teams that aren’t in the stadium – what are we meant to do, rip on Norwich and Wigan for.. err, what exactly?
lol, sorry Goat – that was my Cat’s input on things!
If they knew what they were doing at the back, then for sure, the blames with them too.
Paul if you dont understand what i said try reading my post again mate, the bulgarian waiter and shields were both victims,one being smashed on the head by a thug,the other being jailed for a
crime he did not commit,nothing hard to understand really? the waiter was compensated when
the bulgarian government ask money in exchange for shields being sent back to britain to serve
the rest of his sentence in britain.He was pardoned when jack straw looked into the case and
saw the lad was a patsy. And this is a point for Sushi above,the liverpool fans reacted to italian
thugs who were throwing concrete at them and charged the italians who then ran away into the
corner causing the wall to collapse and crush and the tragic loss of life,liverpool fans went to jail
for their part in this and served time,the liverpool fans said sorry on numerious occasions to juventus
and the italian people so the fans did hold their hands up on Heysel and except responsibility.
Scott, interesting to read about these reports from a Man U perspective.
I’m a Liverpool fan, so I guess whatever I say will be villified by most, but even your piece has a fair bit or revisionism attached to it.
The Suarez T shirts were worn well before Suarez was found guilty, not ” In response to “him being found guilty. I personally believe that Suarez should have been punished for using the word Negrito which was inappropriate here in the UK whatever it meant in Uraguay. As nobody else in the crowded area heard Suarez say it , it HAS to have been a verdict based one man’s word against another. Suarez admitted he said it once, he didn’t have to do so since there were no other witnesses. We only have Evra’s word for it for the other 7 times he claimed it was said. He was punished severely according to the FA because of the number of times he said it. Your account paints a very different picture. Can you really blame Liverpool fans for believing their own player or being partisan after Rio “forgot ” his drug test, but was believed and supported during and afterwards? What about all those excuses we heard about Cantona’s behaviour?
The Michael Shields campaign was as a result of the Bulgarian Police’s dismissal of the confession of a guy who was named by many witnesses as the real culprit,and handed himself in, but not taken into account at the trial,or investigated, let alone punished. Your innuendo about your version of events hardly proves your case that he was, in fact, guilty, but pardoned nevertheless for no good reason despite his guilt, just offering hearsay and rumour as near facts. Doesn’t fit well into your piece if he was innocent does it? Still, as the South Yorkshire Police well know, innuendo is quite enough.
Heysel is a different matter. Some Liverpool fans were culpable for that disaster, although other factors lead to some of the deaths too. But I don’t remember any fans saying it was unfair to have been banned_ we accepted our punishment, in the same way RIo and Cantona and- Suarez did. despite being held responsible for all the deaths
Ironic that you quote a Liverpool fan, Evans, accepting our part in that tradgedy as proof that wee never take responsibility for our actions ….
The trouble is, just look at some of the comments above. Despite the 4500 documents and 3 year investigation, people are still saying that the Liverpool fans killed their own, still saying that they broke down the gate,still saying there is cctv footage which refutes their conclusion which was shown on the news (and therefore presumably in a news archive) and still saying there were large numbers of “ticketless scum”
There are even some admitting they sang it about Hillsborough and are proud to do so
There’s plenty of evidence of Utd fans believing the world’s against them, hence the phrase ABU so who’s playing the victim here? SAF has used it a a motivational device for years.
Anybody who references Munich should be deprived of oxygen for an extended time in my book. Same goes for Hillsborough and Heysel. Anybody who thinks that sang so close to the events of last week, that Always the victim chants would not be distressing to us Liverpool fans and the Families is kidding themselves
Who’s the victim here?
Mikeyboy – If you’re going to accuse me of revisionism, it might help if you weren’t completely wrong.
1. Your players and manager wore the t-shirt AFTER he had been found guilty.
Read this article on the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/16291583 Headline: “Liverpool players support Luis Suarez after FA race verdict”
The players wore the t-shirts on the evening that followed the announcement.
2. If you had read the FA report, you would know the word that Suarez admitted to using was “negro”, not “negrito”. Read the FA report then form an opinion on it.
You can dress it up any way you like but those 96 Liverpool fans died because their fellow supporters killed them.They may have had assistance from people in authority being incompetent or whatever yet the inescapable fact is They killed them,dispute that if you know different.
Sing it or not sing it…
If we do not sing it at Anfield, it is then justified that the chant is about Hillsborough.
But if we sing it then the media will simply put the blame on us. Both ways are not good for United.
Well, goddamn it then just sing it and at the same time beat them at their own turf. It will be sweet!
whos the victim – football and honest football fans who don’t cause trouble and sing hateful songs about the dead.
singing and revelling in the fate of the innocent dead is just disgusting, no matter which team you support. it shows a lack of class, intelligence and coomon decency.
action and reactivation, cause and effect, heaping fuel on the fire and so on, fans from all teams are guilty. but for the mindless violence committed by hooligans from all teams the authorities would not not have chosen to put fans in cages.
the selfish mindless and callous actions of the few taint the whole and thats the sad fact of it (police or fans)
So norman we don’t have to care about the italian disaster but we should care about the scousers?
Anyway. Said my piece like many, now fuck the scousers . Let’s focus on what we love ….. United
Red Robin – it’s not about proving the song includes hillsborough . By not singing it, we avoid causing additional pain for the families involved who , may I add are affected by the media attention as much as our club. If course thus is my opinion . Yours and many others may differ. Regardless. We all love our club as they love Liverpool . Respect sometimes transcends differences and others false opinions.
cu*ts like ‘parryheid’ and several other vermin who post on this site, remember one thing. karma. sick in the head, jeremy kyle class, sc*m of the earth. you are probably to inbred to know any different. just one question to the poster of this ridiculous piece. when you state ‘ yes we hate scousers, but hillsborough was about mothers,fathers sons and daughters, not liverpool fc’, why the contradiction? a huge proportion of those ‘mothers, fathers, son and daughters’ are/were scousers. therefore you hate them! try to make your points a little clearer to those of us who are capable of examining things like this. it doesn’t matter to half of the dumb inbreds that post their, ill-thought, un-educated bile on here. ( i certainly exclude myself from the latter). as the phrase ‘always the victim, it’s never your fault’ has been touted around for the last few days, i suggest that you and the rest of the odd balls, who try to excuse this, are indeed falling into that area, yourselves. just one more thing, lfc fans don’t bother with songs or silly chants against man utd unless they are playing them. whereas the sad act man utd fans, as you have said, sing/chant against lfc every week……who is more obsessed? very sad boys, very sad.
Time to drop the ‘ never your fault’ song along with a few others “Nick nack paddywack & build a bonfire” for starters,they are cringeworthy at best, there are some cracking songs/chants in our history why not resurect them ?
Reds you are nothing but a fool. You are talking about karma? You seem to have forgotten rather conveniently that you people started the Munich chants way before the hillsborough chants. You are not the brightest tool in the box are you?
Funny how you Man Utd fans would bet your houses on the trust of the FA with their report on Suarez (and when one of your lot is done by the FA you will be calling them for everything), but the Hillsboro findings are lies for you.
Agenda’s and bias of course.
“Munich songs were sang in the 80s”. Er, they’re still sung now. Plenty of videos on youtube to back this up – ‘who’s that lying on the runway’ being sang inside Old Trafford by Liverpool fans; inflatable aeroplanes being thrown around while Liverpool fans chant ‘Munich, Munich’; Liverpool fans singing through the silence for George Best; and, in true classy scouse style, Spirit of Shankly holding a rousing sing song about Munich at their end of year do. United fans are not perfect, far from it, but we don’t paint ourselves as such. Liverpool fans, however, constantly try to portray themselves as innocent angels who would never sing such horrible things. It’s total claptrap.
My god this is small time. At the end of the day, who gives a fuck? Oh no, the press twist things to try and make us look bad. Big fucking deal. Was it really necessary to put together this rant? Beat them on the pitch, rub their face in it. This overanalysis into the minutiae of what one chant means and what it doesn’t makes us look bad. We’re by far the better team and that’s what we should be rubbing in their face, not what some of their fans did 30 years ago or even what their manager/team did last season. Reminding their dickhead fans that they are in fact dickheads won’t rile them up nearly as much as reminding them that we have taken their spot as England’s best.
Maybe just not sing it. That song may well have originated after Suarez but we all know its deeper meaning and your justifications are somewhat disingenuous Scott. No United fan is ever going to cosy up to LFC fans but if we want to be the better than them stop whining about LFC fans throwing shit and everything else which we know goes on/will go on. Sick juvenile songs are for boys, not men – and they don’t belong at United.
Reds.
Tell me then you dopey cunt who actually killed them.
Quite right, point taken,my bad.
Now you’ve brought it up though, you don’t seem to be mentioning quite a lot that is shown in the report, or commenting on how it’s been interpreted.
I’ve read the report now, andI am now even more convinced that you, and others, have misrepresented what was found in the report
You say that the media resorted to lazy journalism and easy headlines – what about you ?
The report states that neither Evra , nor his legal team, nor the commission consider Suarez to have been racist in himself, or that he has repeated such behavior before or since. That is never claimed by Evra’s team.
It also shows that there was indeed an opinion by their language experts that it might indeed have been intended not as a racist slur considering his background:
From the report:
experts’ confine their conclusions on Mr Evra’s and Mr Suarez’s accounts to
how the word would be understood in Uruguay and Spanish-speaking America more
generally, They were right to do so, no doubt recognising that whilst it is legitimate and
helpful for the experts to give their opinion on whether or not the word might be used to
offend in Uruguay and Latin America, it is the Commission’s task to decide whether the
use of the word in England is abusive or insulting. The use of the word in a particular way
might be seen as inoffensive by many in Uruguay. The same use of the same word in
England might nevertheless be abusive or insulting.
The report concluded that even if he didn’t mean it insultingly, that it was not acceptable in the UK, and quite rightly, as I said before.
But why don’t you comment on how exactly that makes Suarez a racist? That’s the way he is portrayed, that’s the gist of “You know what you are” and that’s how the media and opposing fans have labelled him. You describe a “slap” on the head, and a pinch as if they were assaults- Evra didn’t even know he had been pinched according to his evidence he didn’t even feel it. All adds to the Suarez is an animal persona though eh
Not exactly balanced is it?
So- i was wrong about the T Shirts, though I don’t think they were well advised, I also don’t think it’s any worse than making a brawling thug who drop kicks supporters he doesn’t like or a player who falls foul of drug testing regs Manchester United’s captain. Actually, that’s what Dalglish should have done, waited to make Suarez captain on his return if he wanted to make a point.
I was also wrong about the negrito, rather than negro comment, though arguably not about his belief of it’s intentions
Neither of those two things impact significantly on the main points I raised.
Any comment on your shortcomings?
edhardy—-likewise, you are clearly too thick to read a simple text. if you read my post correctly, you would see that i stated that ‘silly’ chants/songs are only sung when the two sides meet. stupid, pathetic, infantile, ridiculous, cringeworthy ( all of those could relate to you), however those descriptions include ANY defamatory song/chant, against any club. munich songs are dplorable as are any others. I was replying to this SPECIFIC post, you moron, if it was a random offensive son/chant post, i would have included the latter….keep up lad.
@KMILL
Not denying that certain United fans sung disgusting chants about Hillsborough in the past. Scott’s article doesn’t deny that either. But that’s not what this is about. Members of the media included the “it’s never their fault” chant on Saturday in that category just to make matters worse ahead of the league game this Sunday. Which is highly irresponsible and hypocritical. Because in the aftermath of the Hillsborough findings many outlets expressed a desire for fans everywhere to turn a new leaf and stop the disgraceful chants. And since the Evra-Suarez saga doesn’t sell anymore, they opted to brand as anti-Hillsborough a chant that has a different purpose.
ah, the retard ‘parryheid’ crawls from under his stone. i would point you to all the FACTUAL EVIDENCE as to the why’s and how’s, but you probably can’t read due to your gene deficiancy. toddle off.
KMILL says:
When was that sung? ye Fock off you knob
Justice for Heysel
A balanced view (i hope) from a Liverpool fan
There are too many inaccuracies in the comments about Heysel, Shields and Suarez to go into.
The chants on Sunday were at best ill -advised, and I have heard (though I’m not sure its true) that the chant actually pre-dates the Suarez affair.
I actually believe that United fans will come up with a fitting gesture on Sunday, and I’m looking forward to that.
Hopefully both sets of fans can move on from these sort of chants – they seem to be sadly becoming more commonplace now.
Here’s to both clubs, a great game on Sunday, proper banter, and a Liverpool win (ok that may be pushing it!!!)
Red’s
The retard Parryheid will ask you the question again.Who killed them,some people may skirt round it I’m not,I would have more respect for you and your like if you devoted a fraction of the effort in getting the culprits in your colours to step forward.and admit to being involved in the killing of their fellow supporters but nah that would take guts and show people they were maybe penitent.And by the way the word you are looking for is flannel not justice.
The chant has fuck all to do with Hillsborough and everything to do with how scousers are always acting like a victim!! And thats why Hillsborough isn’t linked to this song because we all knew it wasn’t the fans fault and that a piss poor job by the police resulted in a tragedy.
The problem is the scousers never held their hands up to the Saurez affair and still don’t, Sheilds was involved in that attack, if he dropped the slab or not I don’t know but he was involved and didn’t admit it, Heysel was the fault of scousers, like it or not, and still don’t admit to that, and then they nearly caused another fucking Heysel when they started jumping the gates in Turkey and running riot outside the ground!! BUT they never take responsability and blame someone else, HENCE ‘always the victim, its never your fault’ its not rocket science!! But it suits the media to help the self pity along.
Having said that I hope the families of the hillsborough tragedy take everybody responsible down and finally get proper justice for those that lost their lives.
Still fucking hate Liverpool though!!
For 23 years those people who died at Hillsborough and their families have had to put up with their status as victims being questioned even to the extent that they were branded as the perpetrators. Those who were at fault got away scott free while the innocent where scapegoated and found at fault.
Let’s stop deluding ourselves here. We may all feel that there is a valid point to be made about Heysel but the selection of terminology closely linked to Hillsborough was callous on the part of those who invented this chant.
I think you’ve got a big problem here Scott. It was only last month that you casually called Juventus FC and Juventus Fans Racist. It seems to me that you have no real concern for them. Let’s be honest. We don’t. The fact is these tragedies serve only as a convenient issue for you to batter Liverpool. Don’t get me wrong. I don’t think you are the sort to mock the dead themselves. Rather you are all too willing to show faux concern for them as a means to take the moral high ground and have a go at our rivals.
I’ve been guilty of this in the past as much as you or anyone else but it’s time to show some maturity.
Reds
So now resorting to name calling huh? So now tell me mate isn’t the karma you are talking about what happening now? You people have no right to talk about karma. Haha you are making me laugh.
And please answer the question asked by parrheid.
All irrelevant. That song should never have been sung on Saturday because everyone knew how it looked and consequently can be said to have had it in mind. These symantics remind of “nigger is really a term of endearment back home”
spot on Louis – regardless of what the chant was initially meant for, those who sang are either downright stupid, or knew exactly what it be construed to mean/interpreted as. Assuming that no-one can be that stupid (granted, football fans often are), they meant the chant as it was interpreted. The whole argument that “oh, this chant is actually directed at Suarez and nothing else, and therefore has nothing to do with Hillsborough, and should not be read as such” is just hogwash. Lets just admit that we have our share of numbskull fans, and hope common sense prevails!
Mahesh
I remember you were mocking United while being held 0-0 at first half by Wigan, then you were gone after United scored.
No sir. I responded right back to you, but didn’t hear back from you. And you might want to reconsult that thread, or revisit your definition of “mocking.” I wasn’t mocking I was critiquing our lethargy and lack of penetration the first half. That changed, and the score changed. Talking about the topic at hand though, how does it feel to be able to make a completely soulless comment like you made earlier in this thread.
Mahesh
Critisizing our team? You mean by slating Welbeck and Hernandez? Thats mocking, you freak!
You sir, are an idiot. Go look up what the word “mocking” means, and I was definitely not critical of ALL united players. And I made the point about how I BELIEVE neither of them are anywhere close to the finished item, and definitely don’t seem to work too well together. Last time I checked criticism was very much a part of being a supporter, unless “support” in your dictionary means blindly and unquestioningly following something. And I would be seriously cautious about using the term “freak” after the comment you made early on. Seriously!
In any case Red_Robin, I don’t think I’m going to bother debating with you at this point. Come back when you grow the fuck up, okay? Off to watch the game now!
Which game Mahesh?
United-Galatasaray, Red_Robin.
Which one of United players you will criticize now Mahesh? RVP and Kagawa I guess?
If it wasn’t referencing Hillsborough, why was this sung in the immediate aftermath of the publication of The Independent Panel Report at a home game against Wigan? Scott? Anybody?
red_robin – for someone who dsnt even know what game uniteds playing you sure have a big mouth. like i said grow the hell up. idiot.
LittleRedAnt, if you actually read my post properly I held my hands up and admitted a minority of LFC fans were responsible for Heysel as they “threw the first brick” and on doing so started a riot.
I maintain that we cannot be full accountable for every death as I’m sure the collapsed wall had more than a little to do with it. The collapsed wall presented the opportunity for a moron/thug to throw the first brick and start the riot. Unfortunately said moron took that opportunity causing further death and violence on the terraces. It is the darkest moment in LFC history regarding the behaviour of its fans.
So take your red devil tinted glasses off put on your bi-focals and read what is actually written!!! “moron”!!!!
parryheid—you are beyond help,your stone awaits. that is as thick as saying man utd officials are guilty of the manslaughter of their own players because they didn’t insist on having their players removed from the aircraft after the second attempt, knowing the conditions were diabolical. so, going on your brain missing logic, why didn’t the people involved step forward and hold their hands up? you utterly stupid individual.
IT HAS BEEN SUNG FOR OVER A YEAR YOU STUPID FUCK. NO LESS BY THE FACT THAT LIVERSTOOL HAD CHOSEN TO STAND BY A RACIST.
Immediate aftermath of the publication, my ass. We have been singing it whether or not the opponent was Liverstool. As always “Always the victim, never their fault”
How did united get on tonight? Anbody?
liverpool are great club but they have Retarted Fans and Racist palyer
brett1985 – The 39 people who died at Heysel don’t chant racist abuse most weeks now. What a bizarre link for you to make.
I have as much concern for the 39 people who died at Heysel as I would any other innocent people who are killed, obviously including the 96 at Hillsborough. The fact that Liverpool’s official response was to blame Chelsea, the fact that countless Liverpool fans claim they weren’t at fault, and the fact that Liverpool took 20 years to apologise, that’s the issue. That is what is relevant to the chant.
mikeyboy – You accused me of revisionism. The fact that you were wrong about Suarez calling Evra “negrito” and the fact you were wrong about when the t-shirts were worn makes those comments ENTIRELY relevant. You’ve got to get your facts right yourself. It’s incredible that you hadn’t read the Suarez report before now… yet have been defending him. It’s incredible you could be so ignorant.
There is nothing factually wrong in this post. That’s why you’re talking about Cantona and Rio as some lame response. THAT is irrelevant.
reds.
I spoke to my parents about your comment to me,my mother was ecstatic she was weeping when she said I always told you that you were special.My dad gave me a playful punch on the shoulder and said of all the window lickers Pool fans come in contact with you wont get a more coveted award anywhere it’s praise indeed so proud of you and will frame it for hanging in the lounge.And by the way have they managed to work out who killed the 96 of their fellow fans?
reds.
My stone awaits eh, well I hope it’s not that fucker Shields whose holding it. Did you manage to find reference to even One fan admitting his culpability? No well that’s a surprise isn’t it.So who did kill the 96? Away and trawl some other site in your hunt for sympathizers you dopey fucker.
parryheid——- don’t make out you know who your ‘dad’ is. have you found any officials from your club that have held their hands up yet? yes, a bit stupid of you to even consider the remark you made., but why am i surprised. good to see you are such a big fan of mufc, that you attend all their games. oh, sorry, last night, you couldn’t make it could you? well, anfield it is then on sunday, what time are you setting off? no, setting off to pc world to get your computer fixed, so you can watch the game that way. ‘fans’ like you are a joke, armchair mouthpieces who know fuck all about anything. try actually getting off your arse and going to a stadium to watch your team or doesn’t mummy and ‘daddy’ let you? no respect for no show ‘fans’ that mouth off on sites like this, respect to those mufc fans who travel to anfield on sunday….try and do your club proud.
Scott:
I’m just trying to establish if you see Juventus FC as a pack of worthless racists as per your previous article or as a collective outfit who have suffered a tragedy where the survivors and their fellow fans continue to suffer?
You’ve no concern for the victims of heysel, the tragedy is just a convenient basis for you to aim a dig at the scousers. This is independant of whether the chant is about hillsborough.
And it is about Hillborough. Always and never is all inclusive language and such terms as victim and fault are central to discourse surrounding the Hillsborough Disaster.
Reds.
Take a day off,you don’t have to be an idiot all the time.Crackerjack.
Mikeyboy, if you re-read my posts from yesterday, you will find out exactly when (virtually to the minute), where and why, the ‘Always the Victims’ song was first sung.
It didn’t have any reference to Hillsborough that night, and hasn’t had any reference to that awful tragedy since (except in the minds of those who would prefer to twist the facts to cause trouble or to justify their own ignorance).
Like the huge majority of United fans, we feel as outraged as you Liverpool fans at the unimaginable pain and indignity you have been forced to endure to simply to cover up the criminal incompetence of an inept and dishonest police force (and possible government figures, too). I, as a proud Briton, feel ashamed of my country over that entire episode.
I’ve tried to explain to my grown-up sons what the mood of the country was like in those shameful days. Football was loathed by a prime minister who had surrounded herself with toadies, none of whom dared challenge her warped views. The South Yorkshire police had been the blunt weapon used by that prime minister to break the miners’ strike: in her eyes, they could do no wrong — and no-one dared tell her otherwise. The Sun was another of her blunt weapons, but, unwittingly (I hope) the BBC also played a not insignificant part. They had screened two highly successful series, the Boys from the Blackstuff and Bread, which portrayed Liverpool’s people as dole-loving, ducking and diving scroungers. That became the stereotype that those living south of Watford chose to believe was reality. Derek Hatton and Heysel didn’t help matters, and I’d argue that the accumulation of all those factors meant that sympathy and understanding was in short supply in the corridors of power. That is why it took 23 years for the truth about Hillsborough to come out and for the 96 and their families to get the first shards of justice.
And that, Mikeyboy, is why I still feel extremely angry at what your fans have been made to suffer in the intervening 23 years. Believe you me, I’m sure at least 99.99 percent of true Old Trafford fans feel the same way, too.
So, Mikeyboy, when I say the ‘Always the Victims’ song has nothing whatsoever to do with Hillsborough it is the truth. And you guys know how painful it can be when people choose to ignore the truth.
Excellent article Scott.
Although i was aware of most of this, it still educated on the part of Shields’s dads intention to stand against Straw.
To the dippers coming on here, as regards some of their points,
why sing it now, obviously aimed at hillsborough. -no, its sung at most games, not hand-picked for last weeks findings.
Definition of irony, let the suarez thing go-
Utd have kept a very dignified public silence on the matter, despite LFC trying to smear Evra’s name. If you want people to let it drop, tell it to Dalglish, Glen Johnson etc who keep bringing it up.
As also pointed out by Liverpool fans ‘fergies even come out & condemned it’-
Yep, because of the timing, not necessarily the content. However, compare and contrast your own clubs silence as regards your fans decades of Munich songs, & even banners in the ground pre-hillsborough.
I want to make it totally clear i personally condemn any Hillsborough chants, i have seen truly stomach churning pictures of that tragic day, & its clearly very harrowing when you hear the victims families talking of their children, or other family members who died that day, no person of sane mind could take glee or pleasure from that.
BUT, i would also point out, & this is my stuck record part here, go to YouTube, watch the videos WHO’S THAT DYING? and LIVERPOOL WANKERS from the last cup game a couple of years ago.
I now challenge any Liverpool fan to claim its just a minority, or as many of them claim, they’ve NEVER heard ANYONE sing these songs. For the record, also the same day LFC supporters smashed up the toilets post game, & its alleged, daubed Munich 58 with their own excretement on the walls. The thing is, thats easy to believe when u bear in mind both those videos from that day, & LFC ‘fans’ previous toilet based behaviour to utd fans in cup games.
Add to the charge sheet, Stevie G, & mates, assaulting a single bloke over his refusal to play Phil Collins, & despite cctv proving it was him, no charge, that fucker at the Guardian Scott has proved to be a liar over his claims from threats from utd fans, or the appaulling scum who showed no sentiment for the families feelings when lying, yet again, that utd fans were arrested last year for urinating on the Hillsborough memorial, when even Merseyside police came out to deny it, withoutany thought or sentiment for the obvious upset the families would feel upon hearing such a tale.
Justice
To an extent I see where you are coming from with your well argued point. I’m quite sure that always the victim came about in response to the Suarez situation.
However, until last week even some otherwise reasonable united fans would debate who was to blame for Hillsborough. This chant uses the words always and never so it’s referring to past events too. Heysel, Shields and Hillsborough as well as Suarez.
I’ve not doubt the daily mail sensationaise things. However, there is nothing to gain by chanting about tragedies in a football stadium regardless of the motive. Sensible people know this. It’s time to do away with chants which make even incidental references to tragic events. If not always the victim, then how about we’ve won it 3 times…a chant that verges on despicable and most of the stadium are singing it.
parryheid—— an apology, i didn’t realise i was trying to correct a juvenile. i am sure your mummy and ‘daddy’ or mummy’s special friend , as you are probably told, wouldn’t want you going to games on your own. fair enough. when you grow up and understand the adult world, you will look back and realise what a thicket you really were, making dumb comments that could be reversed back to your own club. if mummy or her ‘special friend’ can escort you to anfield on sunday or any match, i hope you enjoy the atmosphere….you really should try it one day.
ps, parryheid——– crackerjack!?!?!?!?!?!?!? ah, bless you, poor little poppet.
I will be shocked if this is allowed here. The Moderator wants to paint the picture that Man Utd fans are saints.
Most have no idea or just ignore it.
The Man Utd fan in Africa in a fit of rage after the 2009 CL final drove a bus into a group of Barcelona fans, killing 4 or them.
You’ll never see much reference to that Crystal Palace fan who your supporters chased to his death under the wheels of a coach in the 1990s.
It’s pretty tough to find anything on the teenage Spurs fan they killed by throwing him down the escalators at Seven Sisters tube station in the early 1980s or the two elderly Middlesbrough fans killed at Ayresome Park in the early 1970s. To all intents and purposes these incidents have been wiped from history.
It’s ironic when most of you refer to LFC as the ‘murderers’.
reds.
Answer the question.why do you and your fellow supporters have so much difficulty.Who fucking killed them? Answer the Liverpool window lickers.
parrydickheid——–why didn’t your officials act? answer my question….you can’t ( letter changed to equip the question, you may notice). i really can’t be bothered with brain cell free, scrotes, such as your self. are you going to the game sunday then? physically, not in your warped imagination. if no one can take you, are you going to any games, physically, this season. if you are going sunday, let me know what ‘macdonalds’ mummy and her ‘special friend’ take you to, in liverpool and i will answer any questions you want. you can answer the ones i have asked you too. somehow, i think you will be furiously logging on to watch it on your pc, then you can pretend you are a ‘real’ fan whilst mouthing off shit, that you have only been told about, by your deluded mummy and her ‘special friend. why don’t you go and watch someone closer to where you live……i suspect it is a probably near a town where, maybe, exeter city play. then you can make some real, valid judgements, when you grow up.
With all those anti-scouse chants, no wonder Wanye Rooney lost his hair
reds.
Wriggle as much as you like,try and deflect as much as you like the question remains the same Who killed the 96? I accept that it is probably not 96 innocents as some of the fuckers who crashed in probably corked it as well,Karma eh it’s a bitch.Notwithstanding that little detail do the non Liverpool element not question all those standing at the back were not given a tug and ask to explain.Baffles me that as does the fact the citizens ofLiverpool seemingly did not ask the fans to identify them.Didn’t happen in Manchester with the Rangers support and there were not flocks of dead people,strange folk.Go on make an exception show yourself worthy answer the question.
well as you have answered your own question, that you believe lfc fans killed themselves, why are you asking me? you are avoiding my two questions. you admit by your silence that you accept manchester united employees killed their own players, by not removing them from the aircraft, after the second aborted attempt. you also admit by your silence, that you accept you never go to games and therefore, are like most other ‘wet,limp,pathetic, sad” armchair fans on here. i probably know more about mufc and munich than you, a supposed ‘fan’, who only contributes clueless bile on sites like these. now mummy’s boy, who probably still lives at home (whichever traveller site that may be), be a good boy and do as you are asked. well done though, i never usually go near these forums, even lfc ones as they are, bar a minority such as myself who GOES to games, full of mouthy, no nothings who want to be ‘real ‘fans’ but are in reality, billy no mates who live in a virtual fantasy world, where, and you are a typical example, you can create a persona that makes you out to be something you really can only jerk off about. so, mr. fantasist, whats it going to be?
Reds.
I ask you the question who killed the 96? Mainly because you are on an MUFC site trawling for sympathy and the reason you are not on RAWK is because they are your doppelgangers with exactly the same views.News for you thicko no sympathy to be found here.You are correct I do already know the answer to the who killed the 96.just waiting for you to confirm it go on do it you may be surprised by the reaction on here,Hah.
a message to brian t. 100% right fella, i do know about all of those incidents, and you have missed a couple, by the way. the problem you have on sites like these are the truly thick people that frequently post on them. i only visited this to actually see for myself how low the mufc ‘fans’ would sink after the report came out. but i have to realise, the majority on here (and others) just pay lip service to ‘supporting’ mufc and other clubs. it is very easy to be a hard man and come across all big and brash with their clueless views. most of them are sad fantasists, truly sad, who come match day, sit in their chairs, with the latest shirt on,( of course, that then validates them as a ‘real fan’). they never attend the games, they say they can’t get a ticket. bollocks!! if you want a ticket, you can get them, no problem. it’s safer to watch the tv and spout the shit they put on here, but as they come across so macho on here, i wonder why they won’t physically interact with the opposition fans AT the grounds and tell them exactly what they put on these sites? from the safey and comfort of their homes, it’s bigger and braver to do it via a keyboard….most don’t know any history about the club, but google can cure that now and make them look even more of a ‘fan’………..mufc is a great club, shame the modern world enables turgid scum to attach themselves to it’s name.
Liverpool fans are bunch of thick, useless, shameless, disilution, self-righteous wankers.
Why oh why are you wanking on a United blog? Unbelieveble!
Get a life!
Or get a job at least!
Jesus!
parrydickheid——for the last time, here we go. trawl for sympathy?? dear oh dear, read above, you are an fantasist in need of, that is plainly obvious. i trust my many observations are true of you, you have not denied anything………hope you get ‘sky go’ working in time for sunday, while us, REAL, PROPER, MATCH ATENDEES( non- shirt wearing, i don’t have to try to convince myself, im the real deal), enjoy the atmosphere, which i trust, the genuine mufc fans will positively contribute to…….and you and your like, can then, after the game finishes, quickly log on to this and other sites, with your trousers round your ankles and type big bad,brave insults aimed at the naughty scousers. then you can go back downstairs to your mummy and her ‘special friend’ (brother?) and tell them everything about how bad and naughty those scousers are. hahahahahahahahahahaha. INBRED CUNT!!!!
reds.
Oh another award for me thanks but your starting to overdo it our lounge wall is running out of hanging room.Just who the fuck killed the 96 anyway? Anticipating us tossing ourselves off are you this weekend,any guess how big our win will be.Just answer the question and stop kow towing to the Utd support that wont get you sympathy on here.
Probably the most common sense article I’ve read yet.
Great stuff. I wish I’d written it myself.
Well i can understand this point of view very clearly since i know how the media work.But what about a chant your fans were singing against Everton at Goodison park?The one that says “If it wasn’t for the scousers we could stand”??Wasn’t that reffering to Hillsborough?And i have to say that to me chants about Munich are so disgusting as well.With all the respect i believe there was no intention by man u fans to mock the 96 this time but i think you have done it in the past.
No their fault either: http://www.metro.co.uk/sport/football/50352-uefa-liverpool-fans-to-blame-for-ticket-chaos
While it is clear that lot of thought has been put into this piece, IMO it entirely misses the point. The jist of the article is:
A. The chants are not about Hillsborough as evidenced by the number of other events where Liverpool an/or its fans refused to take responsibility for their actions; and
B. Since the chants are not about Hillsborough, there is nothing wrong with them.
The existence of those other events does not prove that that chants are not about Hillsborough, all it proves is that these chants are not NECESSARILY about Hillsborough, that’s all. The question whether or not these chants are ACTUALLY about Hillsborough is a matter of interpretation.
As for interpretation, these chants are sang by thousands of ManU fans, each with his or or own view as to what they mean. Neither Scott nor any other person has the authority to produce a definitive interpretation as to whether or not they refer to Hillsborough. Just look at the responses to this post where come persons claiming to be ManU fans, still blame the Scousers for Hillsborough. Surely to those fans these chants do indeed refer to Hillsborough.
If not all ManU fans share Scott’s interpretation, why should the media? Why should the families of the 96? Why should all those who fought for 23 years so that the 96 will get justice?
Here is the simple truth. Regardless of what you think these chants mean, any time these chants are heard its it inflicts pain and suffering on the families of the 96. It hurts their loved ones. If you want to keep on with these chants, knock yourselves out, but please don’t argue that his is not an act of disrespect towards the 96. I cannot think of a greater act of disrespect towards that 96 than hurting their loved ones.
Can’t deny our stupidity behind the Suarez stuff. We should have just said “he’s being punished, we’ll take whatever the FA give him and move on”
What happened istead is why Kenny most likely got fired.
But on the Sheilds thing – Why did Graham Sankey confess to doing the crime. Yeah he later retracted it, but why confess if you know you’re not guilty?
A big part of Heysel was LFC fans, correct. But what about the state of the stadium UEFA, which was deemed unfit and also the fact other factions from other English clubs had made the trip and were in with the LFC fans. I’m not saying we weren’t the blame because we were, but other things were also to blame.
As for thw chant, you surely understand why it comes across as a Hillbrough chant (as well as a Surez, Sheild and Heysel one). It may not be it’s inteded use but it’s how it’s seen by everyone.
he confessed because there was no extradition likely and he yhought he’d get shields off the hook (which in the event happened )
as soon as European Arrest Warrants came into force, he retracts his confession.
simples.
I found some of this a bit rich. In 02 3000 Baggies fans enjoyed a day out at a generally very subdued Old Trafford.
This inlcuded a rendition of the dam busters, to the chant of “yam yam” – a long standing anti Wolves song. Yam is a derogetory term as it is Black Country dialect for ‘You’ or ‘You are’. In the past the chant going back to the 70s was simply “we all hate Wolves and Wolves… we all ckin hate Wolves’. I think most terraces sang something similar about their neigbours.
The Stretford Endboys seemed to assume that this was related to Munich and it got a bit tetchy afterwards., If there was anyone there trying to relate it to ’58 it is beyond me.
I first saw Man U in 72 at the Hawthorns, when United fans sang on mass ‘Fuck off West Brom’. Charming. I thought that everyone had a soft spot for us.