Liverpool FC are currently trying to replace their American ice hockey franchise owners with American baseball franchise owners instead.
“Everyone knows it’ll be a good thing for the club,” said Carragher today. “Hopefully it will be sorted sooner rather than later and we can start looking forward on the pitch and start improving results, which is what we need to do.”
Once bitten, twice shy? Course not. With all the excitement surrounding potentially ousting Hicks and Gillett from the club, it appears as though Mr Liverpool is speaking on behalf of Merseyside when blindly walking in to this situation.
Let’s rewind three years shall we, when it was announced that Hicks and Gillett had bought the club…
Liverpool chairman David Moores, who become an honorary life president, said: “This is a great step forward for Liverpool’s shareholders and its fans. This club is my passion and forms a huge part of my life. After much careful consideration, I have agreed to sell my shares to assist in securing the investment needed for the new stadium and for the playing squad. I urge all my fellow shareholders to do the same and to support the offer. By doing so, I believe you will be backing the successful future of Liverpool. I am also delighted to accept the offer from the Hicks and Gillett families to continue my involvement in the club by becoming honorary life president.”
Rick Parry, chief executive at the time: : “This is great for Liverpool, our supporters and the shareholders – it is the beginning of a new era for the club. They are bringing to the table tremendous and relevant experience, a passion for sport, real resources and a strong commitment to the traditions of Liverpool. We know that George and Tom want a long-term relationship with Liverpool and that they also understand the importance of investing in our success both on and off the field. They have made clear their intention to move as quickly as practicable on the financing and construction of our proposed new stadium at Stanley Park and also to support investment in the playing squad.”
Mark Lawrenson: “I think the future is bright for Liverpool. They’re about to go to a brand new ground with 60,000 fans, I think there’s investment and arguably better use of the brand name – and they are a worldwide brand. This will help the manager Rafael Benitez buy even better players and help keep them up with Manchester United, Arsenal and Chelsea and the teams in the Champions League – if not overtake them.”
Liverpool fans’ reaction: “This is a much better deal than the DIC deal. Liverpool have made a wise choice. It is a shame that clubs have to sell out to investors, but the big clubs have to move with the times.”
“This is surely the news every Liverpool supporter wants to hear and it looks like finally, Liverpool FC may be starting the journey back to the top of English football.”
“I’ve just listened to George Gillett and Tom Hicks at the press conference, and I clearly believe that these are the men to take Liverpool forward!”
“I have warmed to the Americans and am confident Parry and Moores know what they’re doing, so I trust their decision.”
So, it’s good to know after the hopes were so high last, only for fans to carry out weekly protests now their club are now in the relegation zone, that they are learning from their mistakes, eh Mr Liverpool?
What to the new prospective owners, NESV, have to say?
“NESV wants to create a long-term financially solid foundation for Liverpool FC and is dedicated to ensuring that the club has the resources to build for the future. Our objective is to stabilise the club and ultimately return Liverpool FC to its rightful place in English and European football, successfully competing for and winning trophies. NESV wants to help bring back the culture of winning to Liverpool FC.”
And what did Hicks and Gillett say when they bought the club in 2007?
“Liverpool is a fantastic club with a remarkable history and a passionate fanbase. We fully acknowledge and appreciate the unique heritage and rich history of Liverpool and intend to respect this heritage in the future. The Hicks family and the Gillett family are extremely excited about continuing the club’s legacy and tradition. We are particularly pleased that David Moores and Rick Parry will have a continuing involvement in the club. For us continuity and stability are keys to the future.”
It’s the same old waffle. This is a great club… bla bla bla… we will give you money… bla bla bla… we will bring success back to you… bla bla bla.
Regardless, Carragher, who plays for a club whose fans are buying “Yanks out” scarves and showing up with “Yanks out” banners, is now throwing his weight behind a new Yank bid, by new Yanks making all the promises the old Yanks did. Well played.
So, what has this got to do with us? Like Liverpool, we’re fighting against our owners, but unlike Liverpool, we don’t welcome our Yanks with open arms. Theirs is a situation they welcomed whilst ours was a situation we protested against for years before it finally happened. Whilst Liverpool have won nothing under their new owners, now dwelling in the relegation zone, United, under the leadership of Sir Alex Ferguson, have won three league titles, the European Cup and three League Cups. We have managed this in spite of our ownership, rather than having success because of our ownership, like Chelsea, to use an obvious example.
The Red Knights have been the only serious potential buyers in the five years and that was met with a mixed reaction. Whilst MUST gave their full backing to the cause, there were plenty of reds who were far more cautious, wanting to know a lot more about the Red Knights before offering their support. Other reds on principle wanted nothing to do these money men from London. But at present, we’re waiting for the valuation of the club to fall before the Glazers will sell. Given that Forbes have just named us as the most valuable franchise in the world, ahead of the Dallas Cowboys, Real Madrid and New York Yankees, our protests must continue long and hard. In contrast, Liverpool don’t have the fanbase, assets or general value that United has, with a measly £300m enough to save them from Yank ownership. Well, one set of Yank ownership anyway.
Any new owner of either of our clubs will desperately seek the fans’ backing, something the Glazers never had from United. In contrast, it looks as though NESV already has the support of Liverpool, if we are to take Jamie Carragher as a good representative, just like Hicks and Gillett had their support three years ago. Out of the frying pan…
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Reclaim our club
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When the Glazer’s do go after milking United for whatever it’s worth I do hope we have fans who takeover United not mere debt to service idiots wanting to make a quick buck and fuck off
Just imagine what that would do to United
And please no red knights who say a lot but don’t do much
Sung to the tune of Amarillo,
When the day is dawning, on a scousers monday morning,
how I long to be there, the bottom 3 is waiting for me.
All around the city, where I lay my hat,
They say thanks to Torres, the useless Spanish Twat!
Is this the way to relegation? The laughing stock of the nation,
dreaming dreams of trips to preston. Days out in Scunthorpe wait for me
Here’s hoping that they have the same effect as the two stooges.
Sick to my stomach of hearing the much lauded Spirit of Shankly spokespeople being wheeled out at every available opportunity. Wonder if the cunts in the media know they were singing Munich songs at their end of year party. Bill would turn in his grave.
As much as I’d like to be a debbie downer to the LP fans, Henry looks ideal. He knows what it takes to win, as evidenced by his time w/the Red Sox, and so I doubt he’d get involved with LP if he didn’t intend to apply the same strategies and win trophies.
This article is only comparing speeches from 3 yrs ago to the speeches of the present buyers.
Once Bitten twice shy? yea, ofcourse.. it`s only natural to be cautiose after such a drag and a rough time, but being pessimistic and negative all the time? Hmmm not so good either… besides what else is more to do for a fan other than watch the club`s usual political icons do the same beurocracy dance over and over again?
I`m sure that 95% of Liverpool fans today had their hearth filled with a pinch of hope and maybe just maybe there is a crack of light at the end of the tunnel.. This is not a case of racism regarding the Americans, it was simply a case of two blood sucking leeches on the club`s back which finally were kicked out ironically being replaced by another set of American owners wich, who knows? Maybe they could prove us all that as a matter of fact not all Yanks are intrested in sucking the life out clubs until there`s nothing more to take and then throw us in the pit hole.. We just have to wait and see but I ain`t gonna miss on today`s joy of wich will remind me for a long time that on this day; two of the worst enemies of LiverpoolFC were kicked out without taking a penny along. FACT!
YNWA.
Couldn’t give two fucks about the dippers…. what will be will be in that dump! Lets focus on United and getting a good run of results up to Christmas!!
Having said that, I was in the states this summer and went to a Red Sox game. Brought my brother a Red Sox cap…. waste of money that was, he won’t be wearing that again!!
There are really only 2 parallels being drawn here. Both of which are patently obvious and provide no additional insight:
1) They’re both American.
(Yes, and they’re also both people, both males, both might have had a bagel with cream cheese for breakfast… What does being American have to do with anything?)
2) They both said positive things at the start of their tenure.
(… Ever seen a new owner say negative things?)
As a Liverpool fan, I have a healthy dose of skepticism, but I’m gonna give them a chance. If they turn out to be Laurel & Hardy version 2.0, at least we won’t need to make new banners…
that’s what i thought too.. from yanks to yanks.. But Liverpool is so desperate now they have to accept this even just to postpone the doom..
we need to find a new owner who doesnt need to borrow to buy the club before our loan deal runs out of time..
red2death – Not that they’re both American. They’re both American sports franchise owners who have no understanding (or consideration) for your club and fans.
And them being American is relevant, given your lot have been burning American flags of late.
Scott…..got to agree with some of the comments here. Just because the owners are American, does not mean they’ll have the same fate as Gillette and Glazzers. The Red Sox is pretty competitive club, and for all we know, this could benefit the scousers. If they were buying us, fans would be happy with the change…..Sorry to say, but on this one, we simply do not know what will happen.
Lets focus on our own club
I’d be very cautious if I was them. It’s not about someone’s nationality, but how groups like that tend to do business.
Love the banner. Benithez priceless? Lol. More like worthless.
Up the Yankies!!
why are we talking about the dippers? Are we feeling sorry for them? Do we not have United news and updates? If they get relegated we will still meet them in the CC and the FA cup. Lighten up fellas
Um, in case anyone doesn’t know. John Henry is regarded very well in the United States, Boston fans, the majority anyway support his ownership and the team competes, makes money and makes the fans happy. They are lucky to have him, if only we could get owners that good.
You may think that it is out of the fat and into the fire but with the Glazier debt you are very much in the fire, I do not welcome the new owners with open arms but with caution and a little hope that they offer a better future than the previous owners, I would also hope that Utd fans one day force the leeches out of your club and football becomes the game of the fans and ultimatley owned by the fans
Bob- That’s the spirit lol.
As much as I love seeing pool slogging out in the relegation zone..I do hope their new owners are better than their previous ones..Pool are not as disgusting or as pathetic as shitty and the chavs..
Fans running a club is a nice idea, but a flawed one. Peter Ridsdale was a fan, but instead of using his head, he let his heart get in the way of running Leeds United, look how that turned out.
@KingCantona7
That was really good mate,that little song/chant of yours.
@Utd4life.
Do you think they would give a hoot about us if we were in their shoes? I think they would be laughing their dipper heads off.
@redroy
It’s not like I give a damn about what happens to them but at the moment I would prefer shitty and chavs to be in crisis rather than pool..I fucking HATE both of them..As for pool even with their new owners I do not see them being a major threat..they need major overhauls to their very mediocre squad..So I’m not at all concerned about them..But I would miss the derby clashes if they were to get relegated..
hmm…not so sure about the article after reading this…
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/oct/06/liverpool-boston-red-sox
I actually welcome the take over. Don’t like anyone making zenophobic mania out of what amounts to poor management abilities. As we saw with Leeds and Newcastle, you don’t have to be foreign to be undone by bad economics. Hicks and Gillette clearly didn’t have the resources or ability to be successful. Also, they inherited a team that had made very little investment in infrastructure in 40 years. By comparison, the glazers got a much better business. Really doubt either came with the intention of milking. A profit yes, but can’t really buy into the notion that they were coming in to clean out the club. Good to see the backsides of Hicks and Gillette . Hope for the sake of the prem that Henry is an improvement.
king cantona 7,im stealing your song for my facebook status……superb mate.
Sadly folks the days of fans owning and running big premiership clubs is long gone. There is simply so much money to be made from a successful football franchise these days that big business and profit-hungry investors backed by even more profit-hungry banks will simply price public buyers (ie the fans) out of the market. The only exceptions to this are the odd oil-rich megalomaniacs who see owning a club as the latest fashion trend. The simple fact is that premiership football offers advertisers huge exposure to a world-wide audience and so more and more money gets plowed into the industry causing the whole thing to snowball.
The only “hope” for the fans running clubs again is that the current explosion of investment in the industry is simply a bubble that bursts leaving over-leveraged clubs in administration and the rich buyers no longer interested. It’s hardly the “dream scenario” but would cause valuations of football clubs to collapse and so public ownership would once again be on the cards. However this remains a remarkably unlikely outcome given interest in the Premiership just keeps on growing and the relatively open market of the UK making English clubs so much easier to buy than state-protected ones overseas – I mean could you ever see Real Madrid being sold to American buyers?
So in some ways I wonder is it a case of better than devil you know? SAF continues to state (and I don’t believe he’s anyone’s puppet) that he has funds to buy as and when he wants, we continue to overcome billionaire-backed clubs who try to buy success and we remain the richest club in the world. Were the Glazers to put the club up for sale tomorrow I believe the uncertainty (specfically regarding SAF’s future) combined with the dangers of the wrong buyers taking over mean that we could well be in a worse situation than we are now. It’s all well and good saying we want the club returned to the fans but were it put up for sale, the fans are the least likely group to end up the next owners!
Anyway, speaking of Liverpool, does anyone know what was the deal with everyone slapping Berba’s head after he scored against them, lol?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdJBx2eDJi4
@ redroy –
That was priceless!
I find it hard to believe that a British court will make a decision that will impose a loss of £144million on the present owners. The outcome will depend on what the court decides. Far too early for the issue to be seen to be settled.
i heard if the deal doesn’t go through within about a week the bank of scotland will own the dippers anyone know if thats true?
So what will happen now- Will the dippers start chanting USA USA USA over and over again
Costas – Maybe Berba is part poodle lol. @ Wayne I’ve heard it’s a good thing if that happens.
@willierednut does that mean the present owners get squat and its up to the bank to sell it i also heard gillett and hicks trying to block this deal going through at 300mill think there is someone else involved with another bid coming from china,whole thing seems pretty fucked up
Yeah, Hicks and Gillett walk away with nothing, lucky cunts.
I think the Liverpool fans were a bit stupid to make it an issue about ‘Yank’ owners when it should have been an issue about ‘cunt’ owners. There’s nothing inherently wrong with an American owning an English football club, just as there is nothing wrong with a Brazilian playing for it or a Scotsman managing it.
If this deal goes through Liverpool will be in a much better position because they are dead in the water right now. Things can’t get worse for them, they are doing a Newcastle and if they get into the situation of panic-sacking managers then they will go down.
I disagree. This is horrible news for liverpool. They have or will swap one bad set of yanks for another. They may not be has bad has these 2 parasites, but these new owners are going to borrow money.
liverpool need a billion pound investment.
300 million to buy the club
350 million for a new stadium and that number is going to grow with the new financial situation in the UK.
and god knows what cash they need for new players.
with todays transfer market they will need at-least on average 300 million and that is the starting price for players. This guy is worth 500 million if I am not correct, it is going to be another leverage takeover. Just like the parasites at united which is now the second worst takeover in British football history – and still the worst thing to happen to united, hicks and gillet that they are still there at liverpool at the moment.
Our game is a mess top to bottom. the premier league and the FA are a disgrace. We need a complete overhaul of our system and sack certain clowns who should be at clown college, this fit and proper test is a complete and utter joke. The glazers, hicks and gillet are 2 examples of what happens when we have incompetent idiots at the top of our football body, who let money grabbing bastards who have no regard to football clubs come in and put clubs financial state, that is on the brink of collapse. Who these football body’s who thinks borrow borrow borrow is a good thing for the premiership MY FUCKING ASS.
When scumdamore wants 39th game which destroys the entire integrity and prestige of the premiership, then there is no hope for our game at all. Osama bin laden could buy a football club, that is how much of a joke our football body is and our football fit and proper test is and it is embarrassed and a outrage.
@Willierednut. I would be frankly amazed if the loans arn’t to be paid in due course. It they are proper loans, then any club is required to pay with the agreed interest. It may be true that they have a long term, and thus the old owners may not see their moneys for some time. But they will be repair. I recall this issue when Portsmouth were crawling through relegation. Portsmouth still had loans from several past owners and share holders. Only through the administration courts can you reduce the “value” of the loan amount.
@ RTNK, Ok now you must be on the sauce! Osama is it!! Ha ha ha, But I take your point. The system seems utterly useless.
Nite lads! Hopefully some real news in the morning. Otherwise lets hope there is something to cheer about when the financials come out on friday. As if……
United @ 20;31: “Boston fans, the majority anyway support his ownership and the team competes, makes money and makes the fans happy”
Sorry to rain on your parade BUT the economic environment is very different – baseball is a game in which each team sells its own television rights; EPL sell their rights collectively, with some additional bonuses for winning and/or appearances on television. The Boston Red Sox (with NESN as its television outlet) makes huge money from its rights – probably equal to their gate receipts. In contrast, Texas Rangers’ tv rights were small change and Hicks himself was a pal of Dubya which tells you a lot about his economic probity.
Lets now switch the discussion to the Glazers – who you all seem to loathe and detest as a form of “citizenship”. Under their ownership, their debt has undoubtedly risen BUT their revenue streams hve increased a lot during a time of worldwide recession which has meant that they have used UTD as a cash cow to fund the other, failing parts of their conglomerate of capital ventures. This is, of course, underhanded but not unreasonable business practice for capitalists. Their timing has been lousy but it’s hard to be overly critical about their “stewardship” of UTD – 3 EPL titles, 1 CL title, 1 other CL final, 1 CL quarter final in a three-year period seems pretty good to me (and just imagine how those achievements would look to fans of any other English club ?). And, of coruse, UTD are supposed to be the most valuable sports “franchise” in the world.
The Glazers might not be angels but they have proven themselves to be effective owners. They are also on the cusp of benefitting from a whole series of new revenue streams in China and India which should keep the wolves from their door. You may not like to hear this but they’ve done a great job – for themselves and it’s really hard to argue against UTD’s fortunes during the period of their “stewardship”.
The real fly-in-the-ointment for them is that SAF is turning 69 at the end of the year. If they can somehow work out a successful succession then they are going to be in charge of UTD for a long, long time – who is going to buy them out ? and, of course, why woudl they sell a cash-cow even if they have debts to service from that income ??
The comparison with LiverPoo is flawed in a variety of ways – Anfailed is not a cash-cow whereas OldTrafford is; Hicks/Gillete have not expanded LFC’s revenue streams, the Glazers have been doing just that; the on-field product at Anfailed is deteriorating while, I believe, that SAF’s team is not.
Finally, lumping together HIcks and Gilletfe is wrong-headed; George Gillete is a chancer but he proved himself to be a very sensible one when he owned the Montreal Canadiens hockey team; Tom Hicks is a prat.
@RTNK
What you’ve said (in relation to my post) makes a lot of sense, I hadn’t looked at the numbers, but are you sure they are really looking at £350m for a new stadium? I think if the guy plays his cards right, maybe doesn’t rush things, he need not get into too much fiscal trouble right off. But it depends on his ambition, they’re done as a top of the table side without some crazy money.
Hello to everyone at ROM, my first post on this usually excellent website…..We are United, lets focus on our owners, that are far from good. Let their fans worry about them.
@hooligankickers earlier comment, specifically the 3rd paragraph:
I don’t doubt that SAF has available funds, I don’t think that’s his problem.
I recall some mention a couple of years ago of the internal salary cap operating within United. This tasks the club to keep the wage bill within a certain percentage of the turnover, somewhere in the region of 40%.
If this is done, then funds would be made available each transfer window. If the salary “cap” is breached, then it would be met by the transfer funds set aside.
Therefore it isn’t the initial outlay that is his problem, it is paying the high wages that would be associated with recruiting an established high level player (e.g. David Villa). The improved contracts for certain players allready at the club is another factor.
I suspect that he likes of Valencia, Hernandez and indeed Bebe have been recruited largely on the back of this policy, and is as much to do with SAF’s “value in the market” comments as any initial transfer fee.
This is why he didn’t go far Van Der Vart IMHO.
This is the tightrope SAF is walking along, and with all the recent success under the Glaziers and the internal financial regime, it is another reason why he is a fucking genius.
swerve – spot on. SAF is a fucking genius and the “no value in the market” applies to the combination of transfer fee AND wages. I also think that your explication of the way that the unofficial salary cap at OT is correct and, seeing things in this perspective, explains a lot of UTD’s recent transactions.
The myth that they did not have money to spend is funny. How much did Benitez blow away during his time in charge? My oppinion, Benitez is the culprit for their situation now, rather than the owners.
That said, its non of our business what happens to them, they are not a team to compare to anymore, off or on the pitch
@swerve @dentondavey
United have had an unofficial salary cap in place long before the Glazers got involved – remember Alan Shearer (just to name one money-grabbing prick)……
It may be true that revenue has greatly increased under the stewardship of the Glazers, but surely the debts must be holding us back.
Manchester United have always kept payment for wages with-in a certain percantage of earnings, but surely provision is also been made to put aside funds to eventually service debt.
Having the Glazers as owners, or any owner that brings debt to the club can only be bad for the club.
We should be watching with great interest to see if Liverpool is able to be sold, against their owners wishes, and below their owners valuation.
If that is possible for Liverpool then surely the same can be true for United.
I’ll be more than happy to see the back of the Glazers, as long as the potential new owners have the interest of the club at heart, and don’t bring debt.
I have my doubts about MUST, i’m sure they love the club, i’m just not sure how a large group can envision taking over a club and yet still coming to a cohesive ability to make decisions.
I thought they did protest before Gillet and Hicks came in….maybe im wrong!
@Troy
Firslty, the only reason that Liverpool is being sold against the owners wishes at a price lower than they wish is that the banks who have lent the owners the money now effectively own the club – as with a house on which you fail to make mortgage repayments, the banks are threatening to and will imminently simply repossess the asset so because Liverpool’s owners can’t raise the cash themselves or can’t find anyone else to lend them the money, they no longer have a say in what happens. The United situation is very different as the debt is being rolled and serviced so we’re a long way away from that scenario playing out here.
Secondly, yes of course it would be great if the money being used to service the debt was being ploughed back into the squad instead, but that isn’t about to happen anytime soon. For that to happen you’d need firstly a buyer with £2billion cash or so to buy the Glazers out without debt and then you’d want them to not take out any returns from the club – ie leave all the cash to the manager. That is not going to happen. There are 2 ways to make money out of a club (or any other business) – either take a cashflow out (ie profits of the club go into your wallet) or build the franchise so that the value goes up and you sell it for more money than you paid for it. The Glazer model is the latter as they use the profits to pay the interest, and then will in time sell it for more than they paid for it. It is so far working for them and they will no doubt make a lot of money when they do finally sell it.
So to find a buyer who will plough all the profits back into the club you need someone who has £2 billion cash to pay for it and won’t look to take a return from it – ie “give up” about £100 million a year just for the love of the club. That is the aim of the MUST but they’re kidding themselves if they ever think they’ll be able to raise enough money to buy United. So the idea of being debt free is a lovely one, but in all likelihood the money that would be saved from not paying interest would probably go to the owners instead, so the team/squad/stadium would end up with the same cash to use in either case. And if you really want to get technical, investors usually want a higher return than banks do for loans so you’d probably end up with even less cash going back to the club.
I’m not saying I’m a fan of the Glazers but as we say in football, hate the game not the players.
Van Der Ssr is to retire at the end of the season
@Gotta hate tiny tears
Says who ?
@ Gotta hate tiny tears
actually just seen the comments by Eric Steele
Thank you for everything Ole. Hope you do well at Molde and can come back to manage United some day
HooliganKicker – Spot on mate.
Rooney > England – who said Ole’s leaving for Molde?
GHTT – That’s one area, were we’ll need to spend big in the summer.
@ Rooney > England
Now what ? where’s ole going ?
Solskjaer is in Kristiansund and is set to hold talks with Molde. As the day goes on there should be further developments
Red Nev to take over from Ole?
First the Ole News then The Van der Sar news now Kiko is saying that Rooney is “working class and Vulgar” of the family is having a bad day
See what happens when the Godfather goes on holiday, the underlings get restless.
I must admit that the Solskjaer news are very depressing for me. If they turn out to be real. Ole, along with Giggs is my favourite United player. It’s a great opportunity for him though. And if it does happen, hopefully it’s goodbye just for now.
Just incase a taught crosses your mind that leaving united could come easy to Solskjaer this is after Testemonial http://t.co/L8wgtYV
hopefully it will take the dippers86 years to win a premiership with their new owners too.
No matter what Ole chooses to do – we will forever be behind him
No matter what Edwin chooses to do – we will forever be grateful
Ole Gunnar Solskjaer and his bind to Manchester United is quite unique and to have seen him back into football after everything that happened to him was a blessing.
People say that Ronaldo carried us at times – no more so than having a goalkeeper that finally had command of his team – and boy did we need one after big Pete left and Barthez failed to reach his own standards.
Times have to change and things do so accordingly – change is okay if the right people are found for the right roles in the club.
But no one will ever be forgotten at this club – especially those that carried it on there shoulders.
The Liverpool fans much like the United Fans who supported the Red Knights and the City and Chelsea fans who take the piss about the debt are clueless.
Lets just look at the debt situation, one of the most lauded aspets is that Henry will remove the debt BUT is he actually doing thta. No he isn’t he is just moving the debt from one company to another but the club will still have to service the debt. We see at Chelsea that while the owner there was willing to forgive the debts for a while and even increase them he is now looking to start recouping them. This will be the same with city in a few years and at best its what will happen at Liverpool under Henry.
You also have to look at the fact that the Red Sox are not Liverpool. The Red Sox are a sports francise that is highly profitable and always has been. Even in the European cup winning year Liverpools profits were ok but not stellar. The amount of money needed to spend to turn around Liverpool on the pitch, let alone to build a new staduim and turn the off the field activities around ontop of the current debt is just too great for the owners to seemingly have any real chance of making money. I actually see them dragging their heels on the spending thats needed once the realise it isn’t a cash cow but getting the club into a slightly better state and then selling for a profit having got the club at a knock down price in the first place.
Many United fans bitch about the Glazers but atleast we knew their motives from the start and they didn’t try and hide the debt elsewhere just to look good to the fans like at City, Chelsea and now Liverpool. And they did it in a way that was sustainable by the club at the time of the takeover let alone the after growing the revenue streams, especially the commerical activity side
@brisbanefan
I actually was thinking that too. It doesn’t seem like the best deal overall has been attempted to be found. While G&H are unresonable in expecting a profit, to lose nearly half of their investment is extreame and seems to undervalue the club. I don’t know how true this is but the other offer they were considering was for higher but apparently from a PR pov wouldn’t have been sold to fans as easierly.
It will obviously all come down to the contracts but like you I think the Courts if not in the upcoming case (which is related to sacking the board and appointing a new one I believe) will side with G&H in a furture case
@denton davey
While I agree with the general message of your post I have a few issues
“Under their ownership, their debt has undoubtedly risen”
I disagree. The clubs debt has FALLEN since the takeover due to the 2006 refinance and then the bond issue. Even the PIK debt hasn’t really risen, infact as the Glazers BOUGHT some of the debt off the Hedge funds (Scott and most United blogs decided to ignore this as it doesn’t help their anti glazer stance). But basically they bought £40mill of the PIK debt for just £14mill so the value of the debt has actually fallen. True the interest is being rolled up so you could argue the debts increasing but I believe these are being rolled up simply because its common practice to do so in the states due to the way their tax rules work.
“used UTD as a cash cow to fund the other, failing parts of their conglomerate of capital venture”
How are they using UTD as a cash cow to fund their other business’s. Is 10mill in director loans and 10mill in management fees in 5 years really that significant. And where is the evidence that these small payments have gone into other business’s?
As for Failing saying that shows a lack of understanding. Their Mall business MAKE A PROFIT. Some of the malls are making a loss and they have choosen to let some goto the wall but its a business decision. Each mall is its own company so while they are included on the same parent companies accounts if one mall makes a loss it takes no actual money or profit from that mall. If Mall A makes a profit of 10mill and Mall B makles a loss of 10mill the Parent companies accounts will show the company breaking even HOWEVER as Mall B’s accounts are isolated and then the Mall A’s profits don’t actually go and offset Mall B’s loss. Either the Glazers can make minimum payments to keep it going in the hope of turning B around or as they are doing with many they are letting many of the poor performing ones goto the wall as the personal liability they have is tiny (the liability is with the banks).
VDS???? Ole???? 2 legends leaving! (well 1.5 really..) The Legend exodus is upon us!! I for one shall hang on to Scholeseys ankle for dear life!! (I’m a big guy)
On Topic: I m loving the discussion btwn Denton HKicker Swerve etc.. fine VALID points
To the people that have nothing better to add than a self-rightious ‘consentrate on our club’ shpeil, I will remind you to learn from your mistakes and THE MISTAKES OF OTHERS AROUND YOU!
We are not too disimilar to our dipper foes.. as far as the need for new ownership is concerned anyway…
So carry on Scott! And the rest of the thinkers here, even tho I don’t give a flying fuck about the dippers, I care about the state of football and the trends that influence my beloved team!!
hooligankicker @ 9:34
Excellent posting. You get down the gist of the situation – who has two billion in cash to buy out the Glazers ? Being the biggest “franchise” in the world of capitalist sport isn’t without its problems but, surely, cash flow and servicing the debt aren’t especially high on that agenda – for now. Of course, doomsayers can present alternative scenarios in which revenue from sports declines worldwide, interest rates spike up, and/or the other parts of the Glazer’s mortgaged empire begin to crumble and drag down UTD with them. But, for now, that’s not happening. My crystal-ball is murky about the future – and so is everyone else’s ! – so all those doom-merchants, naysayers, and kneejerk anti-Americans migth want to do a reality check and LIVE IN THE NOW.
Ole leaving for Molde??And VDS retiring at the end of the season??Please tell me that these are rumours..
it seems to me that when the rivalry on the pitch is gone so is the hatred lol
Wakey @ 13:02
Thanks for the reply.
I didn’t know that their malls were each set up as separate companies and that information makes sense of their decisions to let the unprofitable ones go bankrupt while holding onto the ones that continue to make money.
With regard to your point about the size of the debt – I just don’t believe that they have less debt now than when they purchased the club. If my memory serves and in the roundest figures, they purchased the club by borrowing 500 million while investing 250 million of their own money. Last year they floated a 504 million bond issue and also renegotiated the PIK loan which is estimated to now be on the order of 175 million at 14%. So, if my guesstimates are roughly correct then the overall debt has risen from 500 million to 675 million which is more debt than when they purchased the club in 2005. On the other hand, their debt:capital ratio seems to have changed which would serve to reduce the pressure that they feel from their debt-load since the overall capital-value of their asset has more than doubled under their “stewardship”.
One can get lost in the fog of information about the Glazers’ debt but what does stand out as perhaps the most salient piece of information in this whole discussion is that when they floated their 504 million bond issue, it was fully subscribed in a few hours. Obviously, TheCity does not feel that the Glazers are incapable of making payments or that their UTD-business is overly stretched.
The final issue I want to comment on has to do with the money available to SAF. Clearly, he hasn’t spent the windfall that was received from the sale of CR7. And, he hasn’t blown money on a raft of super-journeymen as we have seen at CSKALondon or ManShitty or galacticos as has been the case at Real Madrid and Barcelona. In his transfer-dealings SAF has confirmed that he is, indeed, a canny businessman. The guys he has bought – for relatively small transfer fees and relatively small wages – have not been purchased as a short-term fix but rather as a way to maintain the overall level of the squad. Only his “big money buys – Michael Carrick, DimitarBerbatov and Antonio Valencia – have been “given” starting roles. All the others, from WayneRooney, Vidic, Evra, Ronaldo, Nani, Anderson, ThreeLungPark, and Owen Hargreaves down to Tosic, Obertan, Chicharito and Chiris Smalling have been required to fight for playing time by elbowing aside guys who had been higher in the pecking order. Similarly, his aggressive recruitment of youngsters like Paul Pogba, KikoTheKid, the three Italians, the two Belgians, and the recent signing from Ajax have been part of his well thought-out and systematic policy of renewal rather than a knee-jerk attempt at replacement. And, it’s been incredibly successful where it counts – on the pitch.
Man Utd fan here in the USA and here are some quick thoughts on the sale:
1. The owners of the Red Sox are notoriously cheap. John Henry (principle owner) used to own the Florida Marlins baseball team and got run out of town for being cheap. As owners of the Red Sox, they basically channel the revenue generated by the Red Sox (huge fan base) and their stadium (Fenway Park has some of the most expensive seats) and money from their own tv station (NESN) back into the team. He does not have his own money to plow into the team.
2. Liverpool will always be the #2 priority for this ownership group behind the Red Sox. Even more so because the Red Sox missed the playoffs this year and play in the same division as the Yankees (huuuge rivalry)
3. Unlike the Red Sox, Liverpool is unable to generate the same amount of cash. Anfield is not Fenway Park (not even close) and Liverpool are not in the CL to generate revenue
Bottom line, John Henry and co. may be even worse owners. This team will be sold again within a few years…guaranteed
Anfield is not Fenway Park, not even close, that’s the understatement of the year. Anfield is a dump, end of.
Thanks for that Gopher.
As for people having sympathy for the dippers….I CANNOT BELIEVE WHAT I AM HEARING.
Have you people ever been to rat land and met the any filthy scousers???
Fuck sake…these are people who rob their own grandmothers and spit on them as they close the door
These scally chavs and their town are full of murderers, junkies, thieving, raping asbo, dole dossing, estate living, shell suit wearing, pregnant at 12, 15 dads, dirty filthy scum.
I suggest you go to dip land and have a walkabout and see how long you last.
Kick em when they’re down….when you’ve got someone by the throat you finish the job off, cos i ask wouldn’t many Utd fans want shitty to be in the championship now like they were. Instead of lauding it.
Im sorry i’m of the old school mentality…keep your biggest enemies or rivals in the gutter…i don’t mind plastic london derbies….
Sympathy for liverpool. You’re having a laugh
Believe me if we were in the same boat…theyd come and piss in our faces. So lets not be some ‘ higher grade’ martyrs here.
Just remember:-
1. What they did at heysel
2. Their rampaging around Europe creating carnage
3. Michael shields and what he and his cronies did..innocent m’lord…my fucking arse
4. Spirit of Shankly..munich chants
5. Their endless taunts and 5 fingered salutes
6. Their starfish dives..their blatant elbows…their kissing the fuckin camera
7. Cunts like gerrard and murphy etc etc etc etc
8. Stopping smudgers ambulance from leaving analfield
9. Benitez the fat twat and his vile remarks towards our gaffer
10. Their fans destruction of old trafford seats, toilets and restaurant areas at the fa cup semi.
I could go on and on…….or else just pay a visit to dip land.
SYMPATHY…….you wont get any from me.
Fuckin twats they are…never forget it…NEVER
ps. knightsmith…where are you mate, when i need you. As a born scouser…( clean mouth ) who fled the filthland…maybe you should enlighten some people.
@ Kop. To be honest I don’t care about your problems BUT you have finished your article with the words YNWA. That means YOU’LL NEVER WALK AGAIN ?????
@ Red2death. You don’t need to tell us cos red scousers are ALREADY DEAD AND I THING BURRIED AS WELL !!!
Doghouse – see if you add the numbers they will need to borrow to get this type of investment through. They have not got the cash to not only buy the club, but either extend anfield or build a new one. Add money to buy players it is going to be another leveraged takeover just like the glazers, hicks and gillet. And if anyone thinks this is going to be done with no debt they really are idiots
@Zulu-Malta
No. It means You’ll Never Wank Alone.
@suhayl
I have a weird feeling that you don’t like Liverpool mate, lol. To be honest, I would kind of miss them. I have met Liverpool fans(not from that area) who are great to get along and sensible too. I would also miss the feeling that a win against them gives us. It’s not sympathy on my part at least. It’s the fact that success in the league isn’t the same when it doesn’t come at their expense.
for me it will take 1 billion pounds investment, and like an auction that is a start. That number is only to get liverpool started, it is going to take more cash than a billion to get this club competing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVpEFV3soUA
Watch this wee goal lads.
11. Oh yeh don’t forget the incessant pops, remarks and insults aimed at our club on a daily basis on all the platforms of media infested by scouse rats…..namely talksport…collybore on radio and on c5…hansen on the beeb…..pinnochio on gillette soccer saturday…redknapp on sky sports with his dick hanging out…….etc etc etc etc
Piss me OFF THE WHOLE BUNCH OF VERMIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!
re:suhayl @ 15:13
Wow!!! well said I totally agree with every word.
Is the Solskjaer thing confirmed yet? Gutted if he leaves. Will never forget his red card for chopping down Rob Lee – what a selfless player he was.
You can tell the press are running out of (Rooney) stories.
http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11661_6433069,00.html
@ Costas
That was some goal mate, not sure if he meant though LOL….. Sort of a goal that our Berba would score
This is why I think Man United fans are a class. I don’t like when they use the term “Yanks” sure lots of Americans here don’t mind, heck they don’t even care.. but some of them do. And sure they probably don’t mean to generalize, but it sounds like it doesn’t it?
We have an american owner that we do not like, but United fans call them by name, we stay classy that’s why I’m so proud being a Man United fan.
As for Liverpool.. I hope they stay this way and gets relegated (wishful thinking.. but hey who knows)
@CedarsDevil
Heh, that was willierednut with the link. But I agree. Great goal. Fergie sign him up.
Think we need our ‘killer instinct’ back, just like Sir Alex said. We’re getting too sympathetic and sentimental at Old Trafford towers, on AND off the pitch.
Oh Sorry, thanks for the link willie….
As for the skysports story on Macheda, here is what he probably said on Rooney….
Down to earth………. translated ‘working class’
Honest and speaks his mind….. translated ‘vulgar’
suhayl – Spot on, Saturday wasn’t good enough for a United team.
@Holigankicker – A number of very good posts.
Kiko’s comment on Rooney has been blown out of proportion. Just got this from Gabrielle Marcotti’s tweets…
He does NOT call Rooney “vulgar”. That’s not what “coatto” means. And he says, “Like me, he’s a bit ‘coatto’.”
Coatto is roman slang, “chav” not way off base, but a bit reductive as a definition. Basically, brash, unrefined, working class kid.
And Macheda says Rooney is “coatto” like him. Both kids from working-class districts in big metro areas.
Agree Cedarsdevil. “Down to earth / direct” for working class and probably “slang” for vulgar. It was clear from the overall context of the quote that Macheda was trying to be complimentary about the help he gets from Wazza.
Lost in translation.
I have no doubt that some folks (deliberately) got lost in translation. But no matter the tone of Kiko’s comments, making a meal out of it is a joke. Even on an international break. Leech off someone else for a change.
Even if kiko meant it and it wasn’t lost in the meaning and translation…..he’s right anyway.
Working class…very much so..infact lower… he grew up in scally estates in liverpool…better off living in iraq, beirut or afghanistan. More civilised there.
Vulgar…yes again…shagging grannies and whores.
We cant be too precious about these things…they’re the truth and fact. We’ll support rooney in our shirt, until he stops wearing it.
But the saying…once a scouser, always a scouser..is just that. You can put a scouser in buckingham palace for 50 years. He’ll still be the same. You cannot refine a scouser with scouse blood.
So whether kiko meant it or not…he’s right anyway.
No big deal..nothing to get too precious and flustered over.
Flamin half hour to kill…before the darts at 6……brew it is
@ suhayl
I know no offence was intended with those cities you used in your example. Myself being Lebanese do however find it amusing that you would use Beirut as an example. Seems to me you have no clue whatsoever about my beloved capital except what you see on the news.
Beirut is one of the most cultured cities in the world, envious heritage and history, night life second to none and to to forget a place that hosts some of the most beautiful women in the world, and do not get me started on our cuisine
@ Costas. That was a good 1 mate. It fits them quite comfortable !
@CedarsDevil – the food alone puts the rest of the world to shame:)
Agree with you, Beirut is always stereotyped as a dangerous city ever since the civil war. But it is far from that!
cedars…..iraq being wartorn…afghanistan being war torn…beirut when it was bombed and war torn..that was the analogy. Areas that were shelled and what its was like.
Should have foot noted, that it wasn’t a generalisation. I am aware how beautiful in parts the middle east is….been there many times myself.
Sorry if any offence caused..
@ united.george
Cheers mate, I am sitting in a coffee shop at the moment in down town Beirut enjoying a cold beer, the sexiest women walking by and a wind breeze to die for! ….. actually if Rooney was born here than he would be oozing with class and sophistication!
@ suhayl
No offence taken whatsoever mate, just wanted to differentiate between those you mentioned and Beirut. Ask anyone yo may know you has been here and you will know what I mean….
Cheers
Top posts about the debt and the stability that we have at United. It is very important to understand that even the Sheiks and the Abramoviches of this world may love football or not, may be home grown fans or not, may have 250M or 2B. It does not mater. ALL INVESTMENT IN CLUBS ARE IN THE FORM OF LOANS or purchased shares. Some of these loans/shares are made on personal wealth (aka the Sheik and Roman) others require corporate leverage (aka the Glazers). If Chelsea wish to by a player, the 40M that comes from Abrmovich is a Loan to the club. At the end of the day, ALL of these investors want a return, which may be few million per year to fund a yacht, or it might be windfall profit at the point of sale. Make no mistake, the Sheiks contributions to city are written in a ledger and are formally loans that require repayment. Henrys “purchase” of Liverpool will not “eliminate” the debt. It will only transfer it to his company, which will then hold the paper and will recover an expected return.
In summary, owners and investors have always been in it, at some level, for profit.
On the idea of Ole leaving. Looks like he is in talks with Molde, his former team in the Norwegian top division. Molde tried to bring him in as manager previously, but Ole wanted to gain more experience at United and agreed to managing the Reserves where he has been very successful. Feel it is a logical step for him to try club football or his national team. We may love him to bits, but he just needs to get some more experience. We will always wish him well.
Cedars…i know exactly the women you are talking about…..they are the latinas of the middle east…lebanon, syria, the emirates, egypt, iraq iran,….many of the gulf states have amazingly beautiful women…amazing.
What i did find in years gone by, was that unless you are of middle eastern descent or arabs…youve got more chance of winning the lottery consisting of predicting 20 million numbers in sequence.
Hope your lucks in, being a native
@ suhayl
Call me naive but I have read your second paragraph over and over again and I still do not get it!!!
Do explain
Lost in translation?
@ willie
I guess so! LOL
Cedars. Foreign guys do not stand a chance with lebanese, arabian etc women. Most arab women i know or have seen always go for arab guys.
My observations anyway..
Right check your reply in a few days…..darts it is
@willierednut, While suhayl and CedarsD chat up the assets of middle eastern ladies. Could I ask you for your views on Kikos form and obvious commitment to the club in the face of some strong interest>
@ suhayl
I am impressed, have you actually visited Iraq, Iran Egypt, the UAE, Syria and Lebanon?
Hats off to you
I am a muslim…obligation to visit those countries….but no…not been to lebanon…but have been to saudi, uae, egypt and oman..turkey…..did also go with a convoy to gaza, but the obvious problems as you would know.
Just my observations there and in the uk.
Fletch…sorry mate….easy to digress with totty on the mind.
@ suhayl
No worries my friend, regardless of your race or religion I respect you…. Just glad that our engagement never went over board…
The fact the you are a UNITED fan makes you a friend….
FletchTHEMAN – Really hard to judge his form, he’s hardly played any games. On the interest from other clubs, I’d say a loan move would do him good, if he’s not gonna get a proper run in the team, we’re blessed with a lot of good strikers atm.
Suhayl – Alright pal, how are you? Missed those fucking dipper rants mate. Top stuff.
suhayl- Nice rant mate.
Redknapp on sky sports with his dick hanging out lmao.
willierednut – well 3 strikers on form non of them rooney. I wonder how much money would anyone put on that 3 strikers playing well that non of the 3 would be rooney.
Forms temporary, class is permanent.
9 more days until United play again.
until then i will subject myself to Rio Ferdinand’s hourly twitter updates….
united.george
9 more days of boredom
9 more days of endless newspaper rubbish
9 more days of United news being no news at all
9 more days of United being finished
9 more days of negativity
9 more days to sort ourselves out : )
The Guardian: Glazer debt drains Manchester United’s £100m record profits
• Club still post net loss due to huge Glazer interest repayments
Next home match everybody should bring their their Gold and Green scarves.
We want Glazers out, we want Glazers out!!!!!!!!!!!
Enough is enough!!!
Interesting.. Berba hasn’t scored in a couple of games he is still a player in form.. ouch..
This is what hat-tricks against some opposition can do to you.
As for Macheda’s comments they will sort it out. But i have to disagree a bit with awesome suhayl. maybe not the best moment. but he is still 19 ?
@suhayl
Really missed those dipper -bashing rants mate…..
keep em coming…
Redknapp on skysports with his dick hanging out….hahahahaha…OMG!! hhahahahaha
Slow day at the office eh Scott ??
Ole’s not leaving for Molde. He will stay as long as Fergie is at the club.
Slow day again
Apart from:
Apparently we are more than ever richer before generating more money…
Fantastic – yipeeeeeeeeeee! – time to celebrate
Hold
What about that four letter swear word called debt…
@denton davey
The club was bought for 790mill. The Glazers put in £230mill of that with £175mill being the money they got from the PIK loan. That left the in itial debt secured against the club at 560mill. The restructure in 2006 was mainly to get more favorable rates but was said to have reduced the amount owed by upto 30mill. The bond issue reduced it down to 504mill.
So even if you look at the debt including the PIK’s it was £745mill (560mill + 175mill) and its now £634mill (£504mill + 130mill – Technically the 40mill in PIKs the Glazers now own are still owed as the Glazers are still using them on their accounts to take advantage of accounting/tax loopholes)
@FletchTHEMAN
When it comes to buying players its not even often loans from the owner. Its effectively using a bank overdraft that the banks happy to give as the banks feel the owner can guarantee it. While Roman did give money to buy some players others were paid for with money that wasn’t in the clubs account and with City most of their transfers have come on credit.
@Xyth
As I have said multiple times on here the account details we see aren’t United but the parent companies. The parent company is setup to run at a loss to PROTECT the cash in the club from the Tax man. Infact most of what loss are non-cash accounting deductions such as depreciation and goodwill.
At the end of the day the parent company posting a loss effectivly makes the club money as it saves tens of millions a year that would be paid to the taxman
@ Wakey
You ignore the small matter of the rolled up amount of interest while taking PIK debt as 130 million in your above post to denton davey. if the interest isn’t being paid now, it is getting compounded and has been adding to the debt burden all this while over the last 3-4 years…
Wakey @ 12:14 – according to the figures you present in this message, the debt has gone down ? Or am I missing something ??