A respected sports-business analyst, Sport+Markt, has claimed that the green and gold campaign has made a significant impact on the revenue of the Glazers’.
“Our data show the club has lost retail revenue from the year 2009 to 2010 by around 10%,” said Dr Peter Rohlmann, the report’s author. “This is due to the fact that all the circumstances about the ownership and the behaviour of the Glazer family were not positive in the minds of Manchester United fans. This has had a direct impact on their merchandising spend.”
In the summer, RoM launched a ‘Dig Out Your Old Shirts‘ campaign where we encouraged fans to don shirts of years gone by instead of buying one of the new ones.
We wrote:
Nike signed a deal worth £303m with United which expires in 2015. Whilst presently, it is Nike’s pocket we will be hurting, not the Glazers’, it stands to reason that in 2015, the Glazers will be offered considerably less for the manufacturing contract with Nike.
Not only do Nike make the kits, but they are responsible for “Manchester United’s global retail operations”. This essentially means Nike spreads the United brand around the world.
Every penny that we can deny the Glazers is another reason for them to sell up. At present, they don’t have much of a reason to go, but if year on year they make less money from our club and they come to the conclusion that they are going to sell, they would need to do so sooner rather than later to get the best price. Every year that they wait and every year that the protests gain momentum, the less money they are going to make from us.
The Guardian has suggested today that this decrease in revenue could lead to a new deal being put in jeopardy.
—————
You’ve made your decision on renewal… now the shirt
Man Utd News 24/7
Slowly but surely.
LUHG
END OF STORY
ok i know i’m going to get stick for this but thats a load of bollocks,its nothing to do with the green and gold its the price of a new jersey and there’s a recession still happening in the states i also think in england.i always buy new shirts this year price of the new top $125 canadian thats about 78 quid so i said fuck that, soon as next years top comes out i’ll get one 1/2 price.up to this year never seen a utd top in town over $100,add that to the fact good old usa is having serious problems i would think 10% drop is still a really good number.
@wanye
stop feeding them.
whip out your old jerseys
cooler anyway to go retro
wayne – 78 quid? Fuck me, that’s steep.
look at it this way the most i’ve ever paid for a utd jersey is $90 this year cost was $125 thats a increase of 28% now i’m not sure if the price increase is just calgary or all around.assuming its world wide a increase of 28% but only a drop of 10% still puts them ahead 18% its all relative.
@willie it all depends on the exchange rate right now canadian dollar is stronger than us and the pound is the weakest its ever been.
So Dr Peter Rohlmann opinion is that new owners would earn around 10% more retail revenue per year than the Glazers do, provided that the new owners are seen as ‘positive’ in the minds of Manchester United fans. The Glazers will have forwarded that report to suitors, if they exist.
More importantly, it is telling any potential owner (and the Glazers) that there’s a lot more money to be earned from the Manchester United cash cow. Just have to treat us right!
Never bought à Jersey the glazers came in… Fuck them… Only got sharp shirts…
bought a cheap fake (but truly well done) jersey (#11 Giggs) on eBay! $15 US. DEAL!
Piss, I want a new jersey.
I am supporting the ban on jerseys, but I don’t agree with it. Don’t think it does anything but let down our players. It is an empty sacrifice that will ultimately be felt with our own kids coming home in kit that their bitter or chav loving uncles purchase. Think it is a lazy unthinking even diluded rebellion that just makes us look silly.
Don’t have to agree with me. That is my view and believe me, I have thought alot about it.
I love this blog and respect the opinions of both the contributor(s) and respondents, but I am growing weary of reading articles against the club’s ownership and, infinitely worse, Manchester City. How are we the bigger team when every third post is about City? They’re the small timers, leave the jostling to them.
Regardless of each and every fact and figure brandished by the LUHG/White Knights/etc. campaigns, how many trophies are on our shelves since the Glazers took over? Look at our youth system, in fantastic shape! Look at our global revenues, most major corporations only dream of what our club rakes in! The only thing really to worry about is the quality of the players on the pitch and I do not think Wayne Rooney wrong for questioning our club’s intent. We SLAM him on this site yet vehemently express the EXACT SAME concerns ourselves! We say to Wayne: Where is your loyalty? Well I say to each and every doubter of Manchester United: Respect your club and it’s owners. Respect your manager. Respect your players. Respect your CEO.
While I did not grow up attending Manchester United matches, this club is in my veins. I am an American — either embrace that or don’t. I embrace my club regardless of where it is located on the map or situated on the global market. As it is so often said, I did not choose my club; my club chose me. Is it my fault their PR department works so hard and makes their games accesible to me across the world? Is it my fault they play a style of football that personifies the human spirit and brings joy to my heart? Is it my fault I am not an Englishman? I dare say, it is not.
I went to London on a study abroad my senior year of college. I spent every spare penny/quid I had on getting my poor ass up to Manchester and into Old Trafford. I soaked in the glory of a grassless pitch. I spent two hours in the museum. I spent my last bit of ‘beer money’ on a blank jersey, scarf and socks. I love this club. It is so much more, however, than supporting the club financially. This club supports, as I’ve mentioned, my human spirit. I recently spent the last 36 hours of my grandmother’s life by her side in the hospital. I had just planned to relocate my life to her homestate (something I have since done, I had already signed a lease and secured a loan for a new car to battle the snows of Minnesota and the labors of accomodating her wheelchair/equiptment) but as I was packing she passed away. She passed away on January 28, 2011. The following day, I saw my club, on the brink of meltdown as you Green and Golders would have me believe, suffer a goal late into the first half. I was crushed and already exhausted emotionally. But of course, I watched the second half and words fail me as I try to express the hope that was inspired inside me to watch the combination of managerial astuteness and belief in the power of youth us to victory. As a young man in this world, this club stands for everything I myself hope to represent one day. You may say it was only Blackpool, but damned if I’ll sit here and type out every example of Manchester United empowering me personally as a fan.
This is NOT my club. I will catch hell for this, but this is NOT the people of Manchester’s club IN A PROPRIETARY SENSE. Do not lecture me about the relation of the fans and it’s club — I am a Washington Redskins fan, born and raised. Anyone with any knowledge of Throwball culture will tell you how hard it is a thing to do, staying loyal to that club. They are a Manchester City who do not draw their revenues from the Middle East but from its own fans. While the franchise and I are bound to each other, I do NOT own that club. The Glazers have been (on the whole, yes there have been ugly incidents but you cannot necessarily point the finger at them personally) extremely tolerant of these protests and kept their heads down, continually facilitating success both commercially and, most importantly, on the pitch. Do our players not catch criticism as well? This is the greatest club in the world — the whole world wants to bring it down. Our management, of course, comes under similar scrutiny — they OWN the best club in the world. Do you really think Sir Alex or Sir Bobby would stand by idly if they did not trust in these people? I will answer that with a resounding NO. Why must we tear ourselves apart? Let the bitters attempt that.
But the truth is, you will never bring down Manchester United. Nor the Chelskis or Madrids or Citehs. We are NOT a club in crisis. Do not use the same disgraceful fear tactics my country’s former president, George W. Bush, used to unite the masses in conspiracy against its own free will. I believe in Manchester United. I believe in Sir Alex Ferguson. i believe in the history I learn more about every day. I believe in our players, even Wayne ‘The Mercenary’ Rooney. I believe in our fans. I believe in this site. However, I will not sit around idly while we seek to destroy ourselves. I repeat, let the bitters attempt (and fail) at that. Lest run the risk of being a bitter yourself.
That is all I have to say (for now, haha). I hope that I am neither banned from this site nor responded to with hate or vulgarity. I love this club. I love this site — it is the 4th website I open each day after Gmail, Facebook, and ManUtd.com. I visit it semidaily if not more frequently on occasion. But please, let’s stop this foolishness. Forget Citeh. Embrace your owners. Embrace your club. Spend money to get us OUT OF DEBT. Do not heap more upon us. Need I remind you, the cow in the other field looks great from afar, but it is never really better than your own cow that you’ve got in your own field, now is it?
Minor but important edit (among man I’d like to make but will refrain): Nor will* the Chelskis or Madrids or Citehs.
ok coolest idea worst looking jersey.i have a blue and white striped shirt with sharp across then a small umbro sign to the side.alot of you guys will own one,having players names,crest,city of manchester motto,1968 all in the shirt,i love it but its the ugliest fucking thing.
This is the first season I have not bought a new shirt. It is killing me, but also saving me money. I have gotten two of each shirt ever made since 2000 (a hero and my personalized shirt), and have everyone made since the Premier League started, but I firmly believe that this is a way that I, personally, can make so we can reclaim our club.
@MANsuyUNITED shit mate thought i’d told my life story on here i’m passing the belt over, the mr ambition thing soon went away when the big money was offered,he’s still here and its the same team so lets not get too carried away with rooney’s concern for the club.
My big gripe with getting rid of the Glazers is that people see the Qatari bid as a step up. I don’t. My understanding of it is that Qatar Holdings is effectively an investment fund for the state of Qatar.
This could be considered a delicate matter, so I choose my words carefully. Qatar can go fuck itself with an iron bar. No fucking way would I ever accept Manchester United as the property of an absolute monarchy, a despotic state. You know where that puts us, morally, as a football club? Somewhere between a child molester and Real Madrid. I mean the Glazers are greedy bastards who have exploited this club horribly, but they don’t come up on the UN’s Human Rights Shit List either.
Qatari government money is blood money. We should not accept it.
@wayne Haha, quite a post indeed. It’s been building up for a while and unfortunately did not come out as eloquently as I’d imagined. Either way, I don’t think I’m getting carried away — as I stated, I firmly believe in our manager and our players. One can’t deny, however, the lack of a real dominant presence on the field. I was screaming at my TV set during the FA cup tie for someone to remind these boys what club they play for. While I don’t mean to discredit our current CMs, I don’t think anyone looks at them and comfortably says: They’re the best pair out there. Don’t hop on me about Scholes, best player in the modern game — but it’s probably his last season and most fans, myself included, recognize that perhaps we may need to do a bit of shuffling/trading in the market. I repeat, PERHAPS we MAY. I reiterate my faith in SAF and acknowledge my near ignorance when it comes to football when compared with that man.
I simply was illustrating the irony of blasting Rooney for expressing concerns we have all ourselves either expressed or felt from within. Poor Hargreaves — I’m still rooting for him but sadly I see him as the missing element we need. I say sadly because I, like most, have doubts he will ever regain his fitness, let alone his form. But I will trust in whatever physios the manager, club and owners have under their belt — they must surely be the best.
Before anyone hops on me about what I just said: I acknowledge the WAY Wayne went about things was what was most fucked up. But honestly, it was SAF who brought it to light. He did not come out publicly and denounce our club. That said, I do not support his actions — just as I do not support the actions of those who slander our club.
Do you not think 10% sounds a little too high as a ‘Green and Gold’ figure. While I don’t doubt that revenues on the merchandise side may be down 10% I suspect that alot more of that is to do with the economy rather than the the Green and Gold impact.
If there were enough people who were truly behind the green and gold campaign so they had cut back their revenue spend enough to make a 10% dent you would expect to see it having alot more impact than it is as a campaign. This seasons its relatively unnoticeable unlike last season.
@MANsuyUNITED never had any concerns,although not a galzier fan and would like to see the debt diappear, don’t see them as evil.smart businessmen who saw utd as a global enity and have now doubled their investment.i give them the credit in leaving sir alex alone and also in increasing revenue.utd are their biggest asset it makes no sense they’d make cutbacks it goes against what the intention was in the first place.
so i believe sir alex about the transfer kitty and reasons for not spending,i think he will spend this summer.i’m really enjoying this year fucking experts and pundits picking us 4th and telling anyone who’d listen utd were declining.all these cunts, city,rentboys,real, spending fucking millions and going nowhere.if we win 19 this is a big “fuck you we are manchester utd” by sir alex to every team out there.
I agree with 100% on that one even though i fucking hate the Glazers.
@wayne,well said.it’s exactly the same way 4 me
“Washington Redskins fan, born and raised. ”
“i always buy new shirts”
You two KNOW NOTHING, nothing about Manchester United and its fans. The ‘owner’ of Manchester United isn’t an owner and he has no respect for the club or its fans. How can anyone ‘respect’ someone who has never, NEVER ever even been to watch the team play? He hasn’t even bothered to travel when they’ve been in the States. He’s not an owner, hes a fucking leech, a rat and nothing more. If these ‘great owners’ sell up to Qatar, they were only ever in it for the money and nothing more. That’s the problem, for the real supporter who grew up during the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s, it was nothing to do with buying shirts or hoping a £30m star will sign, it was about travelling up and down the land watching the team play, supporting them where ever they go. My old man has never owned a football shirt but hes been going since the 1960s. If you believe your loyalty can be questioned by not buying the latest £50 football shirt, you have issues because buying a shirt doesn’t mean anything. Infact for most supporters who go home and away, you’d be considered abit a of bell end. Telling me to support David Gill and Glazer from North American, when I live less than 5 miles from Old Trafford? Piss off, you don’t know the first thing about United and its supporters. We Fucking Hate Glazer because we care about that club and what’s happening generally in football.
+1 Doghouse
At least some of this decline in revenue has to be a result of the economy. In fact, in previous years, “analysts” have been surprised that our merch revenue stayed so strong in the face of a general recession. And consider this: a lot of United’s merch sales come from overseas fans, and to be honest, I really don’t think the G&G campaign has a high profile overseas. Not because people are against the G&G campaign, or “for” the Glazers, just a fact of life that the whole issue just doesn’t get the media attention overseas as it does in England. Nothing odd about that. A lot of my son’s “soccer” buddies love United, but when I speak to them, they’ve never heard of the G&G campaign. Fuck, most of them have never heard of the Glazers either. They still want their merch, though, but these days, a lot of parents just don’t have that sort of spare cash. I know at my son’s club, several players have stopped playing because their parents can’t afford the fees anymore, and the club is seriously pulling back from our annual out-of-town tournaments, because parents can’t afford the costs (tournament fees, travel costs for a weekend, etc). And one of the dedicated “soccer” gear shops in our neighborhood has closed, and a lot of their business was in merch (not just United of course).
It would be interesting to see whether merch revenue of other clubs is also down. I bet it is. Except, of course, shitty’s. Because no-one buys that anyway, and you can’t go down from 0! I guess that’s one good thing about a bunch of fucking losers.
anderson out for two months
@ AndyMufc I think you have been horribly ignorant in your comments. You don’t seem to realize that ‘real United fans’ like yourself do nothing but divide the fanbase. I know nothing? This is the way you treat a fellow supporter? Fuck me, I think there are a few folks in Manchester that would be ashamed to see you berate a fellow supporter like this. It’s sad, the small mindedness. Manchester United means a lot to me. You’re telling me I know nothing? That I haven’t watched 98% of the games in the last 6 years? That I don’t spend hours on my computer researching OUR club? That I don’t spend TWO hours in the museum in the only opportunity I’ve had in my life to go there, asking questions all the while. That I don’t sing the songs alone in my living room? That I don’t love this club? You’re the type of self-righteous brat Cantona would lace the boots back up and charge over the walls at. I’m 24 years old and I was born in the USA. It’s my fault? That makes me ineligible to be a fan? Jesus me, you’ve got a lot of learning to do mate. A whole lot.
Futhermore, why did you put quotation marks around ‘great owners’? No one said that. I simply said look at the records of the team in both domestic and continental competition. I simply said that with these folks in charge, Manchester United has seen one of its most successful eras in terms of silverware. I simply said we should get together behind OUR club. Fuck me, without the global support Manchester United recieves, there would be no $35m for Berbatov. There would be no Wayne Rooney, Rio, etc. transfer money. I repeat, you have a lot to learn about your own club and its supporters.
I fully welcome an apology and more intellectual debate if you disagree. As a fellow supporter, I’d rather shake your hand and agree we both support the best club in the world, however and wherever we can, rather than tear each other apart.
Simply put, grow up. YOU sure as hell don’t ‘own’ Manchester United. Learn how to share or find yourself a bitter old man.
@ andymufc I just checked out your blog. With a mindset like the one you’ve displayed here, it’s no wonder there isn’t a single response to any of your articles.
@MANsuyUNITED
There exist trolls like that anywhere and everywhere you go, so just leave them be. Some supporters think they have a god-given right to impose their thoughts and feelings and ideals on others, and that supporters who don’t think on the same wavelength are not real supporters and are to be ostracised.
Overseas supporters like you and I, are always on the receiving end of being labelled plastic fans.
Have faith in your own faith, and do not let such ignorant words bring you down.
They don’t know how lucky they are to be able to make a short trip to watch United whenever they can. I was luckier than you – I had no doubts on where I wanted to do when I had the opportunity to study overseas – University of Manchester, nowhere else. So I had a fantastic 2 years of Manchester life, and met some brilliant friends there too.
We Chinese have a saying “the bystander sees things clearer” and that’s what I think we are. Being so close to the ongoing G&G campaign might have clouded their views a little. Ask other clubs’ supporters who have a bit of intelligence left in them and they’ll be going “why aren’t you guys bankrupt yet? aren’t the Glazers supposed to be leeching you dry? why are you still posting such crazy profits? why does United still have a conveyor belt of talent waiting in the wings? why don’t you guys buy 2 or 3 world class over-hyped players who will break your wage structure and cause it to collapse from within? it has been 6 years, and why are you guys still challenging at the top? you should be down under!”
Like some have said, 10% is a relatively minor drop considering the poor economy in the US and Europe in general. If anyone hasn’t subscribed to the Man Utd store, you will see how aggressive they are nowadays. I used to get an email every 2 or 3 weeks, regarding discounts and the like. Now, it’s practically one every week, every win. Free international shipping and discounts, always entice me to part with some more of my money – but I almost always buy the clearance or heavily discounted items because that’s helping the club to recover their costs at the very least. I’ve no doubt that more well-to-do Asians who like/love/worship the club would spend even more.
My personal belief is that, no one can guarantee/promise that any new owners will definitely be better. Unless the new owner(s) is/are Sir Matt and/or Sir Alex and/or Sir Ryan. The last thing I want is to read jokes like the new owners faxing team sheets to the manager, whoever it may be by then.
Ive dug out my Black sharp shirt !
@ MANsuyUNITED:
Well said!!!!!!! Fully encapsulated something I have been wanting to say on this blog for a long long time..
Does anyone think that a reason that retail revenue went down because we didn’t win big last year? Here in India for eg. The Nike stores have not been using MUFC branding like they used to in 2008-2009.
I cant believe i had tears in my eyes reading @MANsuyUNITED’s post.
For a start I don’t think accusing other Man U fans of being “not real fans” just because they have a different opinion is a great way to go about things.
And you really wanted to hurt them you’d not go to any matches anymore, but then I doubt people would actually do that.
I don’t think that the Green and Gold protest would even come close to 0.5% of the 10% drop like some people have been saying most shirt sales are from outside of Manchester.
The problem with the Green and Gold protest is that bar the poor sources of finance to buy the club for example the leveraged buyout (which is now banned under Premier League rules) there is not many things to actually complain about under the ownership of the Glazer’s.
The Glazer’s have presided over one of the most successful periods in United’s history and it’s not like United have been short of investment either. Prior to the Glazer takeover Ferguson had previously been very thrifty with his signings and I believe that’s a lot to do with being burned by a some expensive signings that didn’t work out for the club. So the fact that Ferguson chooses not to spend large is not a sign that the current financial situation is dire but that he is continuing to do what he has always done. Not to mention he signed Dimitar Berbatov for an exceptional amount. I wouldn’t be surprised if there weren’t one or two expensive signings this summer to be honest.
When looking closer at the financials of the Glazer’s ownership of the club it’s always important to take into account that other clubs in the Premier league and abroad have also been loaded with large amounts of debt and that when UEFA’s financial fair play rules kick in next year everyone’s going to have to dance to the same beat. And talking of the financial fair play rules don’t forget that Man U has (I think) the lowest % of match-day income to player wages in the whole league (45%).
Now I’m not saying that the Green and Gold protest is for nothing at all. In fact it’s come about because of a very real fear that if we don’t get the finances sorted out then there could be some very serious consequences. But what I am saying is that the Green and Gold protest may have in fact done all it’s needed to do already. If it for one moment it made the Glazer family sit up and take notice then maybe it’s done everything we need. I’m not for getting rid of the Glazer’s at all, I don’t think it would help the club at all.
And also let’s always keep things in perspective here, if we do get financially hit and we stopped winning trophies then I don’t mind. United have been blessed to have such a huge amount of success over the past couple of decades and what matters is good football. In fact I would have said that this season had it not been for the fact that’d we’d overtake Liverpool on league trophy wins that maybe Arsenal deserve to win. We’ve been playing terrible football and a large part of me wishes we’d play good football and finish second that bad football and win, but then I’m a football romantic.
I am not from Manchester and have seen United play only twice in all my life, despite spending a considerable amount of time in England. Does that make me any less of a supporter- I suppose it does. I’ll never know what it feels like to travel to OT every weekend or have my entire family sit and discuss United at the dinner table. Then again, if anyone tells me I know nothing about my club simply because I’m not from Manchester, I can only pity the fool. It is the sort of comment that characterizes the innumerable petty clubs that come to OT and sing, ‘we support our local team’- it certainly doesn’t reflect well on a supporter of aclub like ours.
That said, I disagree with MANsuyUNITED as far as the ownership issue is concerned. I am an overseas supporter but I am also anti-Glazer. Yes, we spent a fortune on Wayne and Rio but that was before the Glazers stepped in. How many big-money transfers have we made since Berbatov? 6million on Hernandez and 7 on Bebe hardly would count as ‘big’. The fact remains that we are the biggest club in the world and our activity in the transfer market hardly reflects that status. I’m not saying we should go on a Citeh-esque buying spree, but we need to buy when the need exists- do you honestly think that Fergie wouldn’t have tried to sign a CM if he had the resources at his disposal? The entire ‘no value’ argument is just bollocks- that was never an excuse when he broke the British transfer record time and again in the ’90s. Yes, this has been one of our most successful periods but that has been in spite of the Glazers, rather than because of them.
LUHG
@MANsuyUnited great post mate! tho the blogs on Shitty are a laugh.
@MANsuyUNITED
touche my friend, touche. well put.
Anderson out Pogba in ?
It’s the broken record speaking – STOP GOING TO OLD TRAFFORD!! If all fans followed suit they would have to sell ASAP……won’t happen though
I’m not sure if I’m allowed to post. I replied to YorYor’s post (very gratefully) but have not since seen it posted in this forum.
@ Dela You’re right, how silly that we only spent $7m on Hernandez. What were we thinking?! We should’ve bought Balotelli! No, we should have bought Andy Carroll! Would you really rather have either one of those expensive talents on your team? We got the little guy Michael Owen for free. Sure, he’s not what he used to be but you don’t value his contributions? Sir Alex doesn’t authorize buys he doesn’t want. Do you really think he’s lost control of his club? The only value in the transfer markets we’ve missed is van der Vaart (well, maybe not the ONLY, haha).
Also, I think you’ve forgotten the summer in which Nani, Hargreaves and Anderson were purchased. Spent a pretty penny then. But you’re probably right, we’d be better off without Nani. We have ONLY purchased Berbatov because the manager has faith in the youthful structure he’s built over years of hard labor — the same folly he was to blame for in the mid 90s. What a fool he was then, huh?
Chris Smalling for $10m — again the foolishness! He’s clearly better than that, or at least he will become greater at our club. You’re so right, the Glazer’s should’ve forked over $30m!
Pardon my sarcasm, but I do believe you may have accidentally been speaking out of your ass.
LU — Love United! Simple as that. If you have trouble doing that one, trust SAF. If you can’t do that one, I suggest you find a new club.
@andymufc –> Manchester United is an international business. If you want it to be your local football team and tell all foreign fans to fuck off, fine, but say goodbye to premier league / European success because both cost a lot of money to fight for.
I have always seen the jibes from City fans against United fans overseas and now we have to put up with clowns like you too. I’m not from Manchester, I’m from Ireland where there are hundreds of thousands of United fans that spend a ridiculous amount of money traveling to games and buying up merchandise that pays wages and transfer fees (and unfortunately, interest).
But of course, you live close to OT so you are a bigger fan than all of us right? Get over yourself. You should appreciate the global reach of Manchester United instead of being an egotistic tosser. And stop coasting on your father’s years as a United fan. You were indoctrinated, I became a United fan all by myself (I’m 24) even though my father is an Arsenal fan (lived in London for a long time). But that doesn’t really matter to me.
Tell me if you will, how many United players are from Manchester these days? Ok… now is the manager? No…. How many of the staff are? That’s right. International club, International business. I think you, like a lot of people, get caught up in the belief that you _own_ the club. You don’t. You are a supporter. When you buy tickets you are paying to be entertained watching a football match. When you leave, United doesn’t owe you anything. You could live in a tent at OT if you want but it doesn’t matter how close you get, you and I are still the same to the club as each other.
@ Dela Good response to the troll! I apologize if my comments were belittling in any way towards you. I admit being a little upset and am man enough to admit that I may have been a bit rude. I do stand by my opinion though.
I am glad that we both support this great club!
@MANsuyUNITED
Just wanted to point out that there are two “DELA” writers here, one is me (with a capital D) and the other, which u were replying to is with a lowercase “d”.
I lean more toward your way of thinking on transfers. I felt very bad about United when people started to doubt Alex Ferguson’s stance that he’s not buying because of a lack of value. Of course they stopped short (for the most part) of calling him a liar but that’s the vibe I got. The green and gold stuff for me came to an abrupt end when the manager and players had to listen to thousands of whistles on the last day of last season in _apparently_ protest of the owners who live thousands of miles away. Just a bullshit PR stunt in a struggle to control one of the biggest clubs in the world and if I was a player who had to put up with that I don’t think I’d have stayed on the pitch. It looked more like a reaction from fans to coming second (which had nothing to do with under-investment and everything to do with injuries) than a protest against owners. But that’s just my opinion and I’m always being chided for it but its just as valid as any other thats put out there.
I don’t want to be a doom monger, but if Anderson really is out for two months… we can forget the Premier League.
@ Dela
How am I to keep up?! Haha.
Agreed, it has pained me as well to see such doubt take over when SAF is so near the end of his great career. Send this man out with a bang and not wallowing in a sea of hateful supporters! Lord knows this club is going to go through one hell of a change over in a few years time. We need all get behind our club in order to reassure it’s future.
So long as the Glazers are looking after themselves, they will be looking after this club. Their greed is not pretty, but it is as reliable as the hair dryer. They don’t thrive if United don’t thrive. Business is a necessary evil accompanying the art that is football. I agree football is changing, as is its culture. And? Would you rather take a stand or continue the great tradition that is Manchester United?
Do you guys not listen to SAF when he preaches about stability at clubs? Do you not see that while you have been supporting United for years, new supporters come into the fray daily? Do you not see that this club belongs to you as much as Toshiba does for buying one of their televisions? Ah, but there’s the human element to football. There’s the art. That’s the beauty.
How many of you have not been overjoyed at watching United in the last few years? How many of you would rather brush the CL trophy under the rug because it was achieved under the hands of the Glazers? You gave up your seats, good for you. You stopped buying jerseys, good for you. And?
The Glazers DO OWN Manchester United. That’s why you want them out. You don’t like what they do as OWNERS. Who here has built up enough wealth to take it over? If you have, why should we trust you? If we should, could you do half of what the Glazers have done for Manchester United as a brand. Yes, I hate the term too. But it is a brand. Without that label on your shirt, you’re just as red as any other Scouser. And when you buy that cheap replica knock off on the internet, who do you think you’re buying from? Some sweat shop in Vietnam of China. You’d really rather support that than your club?
How is this not clear as day? The Glazers own Manchester United. When you HATE the Glazers, you HATE United. Simple as that.
Ando out for the season (2 months literally means that, plus he wont gain fitness that soon either) is a body blow. Esp with no cover in CM. Park and Valencia are wingers and if we deploy Giggs in CM it will screw us. Hoping for a major miracle (scholes playing 75 mins every game henceforth, carrick and fletcher revival)
@Dela
I really need to find myself another display name
@MANsuyUNITED
Yes, last season’s second place finish was more due to some rotten luck than under-investment, but I still would have liked to see Ronaldo’s 80 mn being put to good use.We still have a good team but I still would have liked to see us bidding for the likes of van der Vaart, Sneijder, Robben, Khedira and Ozil, all of whom were fairly reasonable.
I don’t agree with you- let’s just leave it at that, shall we? That said, in Fergie we trust.
Hernandez for 6 million was a masterstroke. And don’t even get me started on ‘the-second-best-player-in-the world’ Balotelli.
Terrible news about Ando. He seems to be growing in confidence each time he touches the ball.
What if, just what if Hargreaves became fit again? What if, just what if he fills that gap? What if, just what if he doesn’t but Sir Alex finds another way? What if we win the league a 19th time?
Why the doom and gloom? How many times must we beat the odds until we truly believe in this club?
Okay, I’m officially going to bed. All this posting has exhausted me. I have sat silent on this site for years. Thank you Scott for giving Manchester United supporters, Mancunian or not, the opportunity to voice our opinions and share about our club!
LU.
@ dela Fair enough. Together we will cheer on Wednesday!
We are fucked royally. No rio, Giggs , Owen, Evans for Marseille. With so many injury problems we could be in for a long 3 weeks. Squad looks threadbare.
rooney > england
Of all of those, only Giggsy’s absence gives me real concern. I doubt Owen and Evans would have played at all, let alone started, and we know now well Smalling can deputise for Rio, esp given the injuries to Marseille’s strikers…
Question is, with Park still not ready, who plays wide left? Obertan hardly deserves a starting berth after the Crawley match… Fabio maybe? Or Evra, with JOS at LB? Or Nani, with Fletch on the right?
What is the matter with Giggs?
Anderson injured we lose the league?! Please, do me a favour KANCHELSKIS! A lot of you will disagree with me on this one but he’s the most over-rated player we have! 2/3 goals in the whole time he’s played for us? We’ve had better….
Never been a big fan of Nike anyway and seeing some of the older shirts worn on matchdays is just way cooler.
Supporting this club doesn’t have anything to do with how much money you spend on the new shirt or in the megastore.
MANsuyUNITED: It’s almost like you’re tellning us we might as well be supporting Microsoft. It is quite possible to be upset with how things are run on a financial level and still love the football-part of the club.
Doghouse, your comments on the mooted Qatari purchase is almost racist in its content and certainly abhorrent, you misrepresent facts and mix them up with your own prejudices.
Have a look at the Qataris recent investments and please do have a look at the progressive nature of thier regime, not everyone from the middle east is a power hunger corrupt despot.
As for the 10% reduction, yeah nothing to do with a recession is it, you only have to look at the amount of new shirts in and around the stadium (with green and gold scarves) to see its not the whole picture.
petemanc
So, you can see an underperforming Carrick, an underperforming Fletcher, a recovering-from-injury and 36-year-old Scholes, and a frankly limited Gibson carrying us over the line, can you? With two games against Chelsea, and trips to the Emirates and Anfield?
@kanchelskis
with the games we have coming up we need all the players we can. We have got just 5 midfielders now and one of them is Gibson, God help us. Think O’Shea will play on the Left and Evra on the Left Wing or Maybe Rooney on the LW and berba up front. The worry is our next 4 games are away from home and the way we have been playing away, difficult to see us winning any of those. Not many options in midfield either
Guys, if I bought a jersey from Sportsdirect.com (25 punds – without name, numbers etc., but you can personalize that – pound for one letter and 4 pounds for one digit),
http://www.sportsdirect.com/nike-manchester-united-home-shirt-2010-2011-379113
have Glazers something from that?
btw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIX5X6sBpAI&feature=feedu
Surely we can still manage a score draw and at worse a 2-1 defeat.the return will be in 3 weeks when the injury situation will hopefully be different ( Rio Tony Park )
This game and the Wigan one needs to be negotiated as best as we can.
Chelsea away is the hard one as it comes on the back of two other away games.At least with Liverpool we have 5 days grace,
rooney > england
Glad someone shares my concerns. They games we have coming up, and the games Arsenal have coming up, we needed to be further ahead than we are to feel in any way comfortable. If we’d beaten Wolves, the gap would be 7, which would feel nice. As it is, 4 feels alarmingly close.
I’m not too worried about Marseille. As I mentioned, they’ve got striker problems. Plus, we’ve actually one all our games on the road in Europe!
But… we’ve won as many games away in Europe as we have away in the league. And it’s the trips to Anfield, the Emirates and the Bridge that really worry me. All Arsenal have to really worry them is our visit, and their trip to Spurs (whenever that is).
kanchelskis says:
petemanc
So, you can see an underperforming Carrick, an underperforming Fletcher, a recovering-from-injury and 36-year-old Scholes, and a frankly limited Gibson carrying us over the line, can you? With two games against Chelsea, and trips to the Emirates and Anfield?
And there I was thinking we sold Giggs, Park, Nani that Valencia wasn’t due to return from injury, why mention Scholes in a negative sense the positve thing is he is comong back from injury and at a crucial time, also Carricks problem is he was bought as a creative midfielder and is being used in front of the back for where his passing ability is less effective but he does screen the CB’s well.
We’re in the qtrs of the FA, top of the league and still in europe
@ Kanchelskis – A few players under performing and we are suddenly doomed? You more or less writing us off in February because Anderson’s injured and a few others have had a blip. Unlike you I have faith in my team.
mattbw7
What you talking about Giggs Park Nani and Valencia for? I’m talking about the centre of our midfield.
petemanc
No use calling it a ‘blip’ when it lasts all fucking season! If we do win the league, it won’t be down to the contributions of Fletcher, Carrick or Gibson, will it?
I do have faith in the large part of our team. Just not our central midfield unit. Sorry.
@kanchelskis Well, tbh i am not worried about the Cl at all. Dont care if we dont win that, and rather go out now than the later stages as that hurts a lot. Arsenal look in a good position atm and if barca knock them out, it will only help them further in the league. Stupid draws are going to cost us in the end i feel. Plus we have just 5 of our remaining league games at home. Remaining all are away. On what we have seen so far, cant see us winning any. Sorry
Anderson’s absence is a blow. Imo he has been our best midfielder over the last 3 months. Now, not only are we short on numbers, but we will need the likes of Carrick, Fletcher and Gibson to raise their game significantly. I share Kanchelskis’ concerns on this especially when I look at the games coming up.
Anyway, the squad for Marseille:
Goalkeepers: Van der Sar, Kuszczak, Lindegaard; Defenders: Vidic, O’Shea, Brown, Rafael, Fabio, Evra, Smalling; Midfielders: Scholes, Gibson, Nani, Carrick, Fletcher, Bebe, Obertan, Tunnicliffe; Strikers: Rooney, Berbatov, Hernandez, King.
No Giggs and Owen from what I can see. At least the twins are back. It would be nice if we don’t lose any more players.
I understand the logic of fans investing less money into the club they support in order to try to force the owners out. But I don’t want those bloody Qatari’s in charge of the club I love. I don’t want to become another Chelski. I don’t want to be the new Citeh. The Glazers are aweful leeches who don’t give a damn about anything other than the bottom line…. Yeah, it’s called a businessman, and United is a business. Trust me, I hate it, I want fans to own the club, like Barcelona. But I DON’T want no friggin Qatari oil sheik buying the club I love!
MansuyUtd, You almost sound as if you have a persecution complex about being an overseas UTD fan, get over it no one here cares, you’re a fan and thats it but don’t ever think your opinion is more valid than anyone elses. The owner ship of the club has been contentious for many years even my living memory with the butchers boy running the club. The history regarding the ownership of the club is nowhere near as glorious as our on filed success, even Fergie took over I recall we where 2 million in debt and losing 200k a week, now that might not sound a lot in todays climate but this was before the Sky income and was a serious threat, we where that skint the clubs put Fergie up in a rented semi for his first year!
The Glazers are bad but we will be here long after they have gone, you will still be a fan from wherever you are and I will still be going.
kanchelskis: I share your concerns, mate. I wont go so far as to write us off, but I am getting that sickening feeling when it begines to resemble last year. Key question for me is when does Park come back, because he is one guy who always turns up for the big games and can play CM as well.
It’s unfair to expect valencia to make an immediate comeback, and in any case I am not so worried about our wings when we got Giggs, Park and Fabio/Evra, not to mention Nani. But CM is a worry, no doubt about it. If only rooney was back to his best!
For the doom-mongers, I sure hope the end of the season will come back and bite your ass.
Never say never, and I hope each of those three named (Gib/Carr/Flet) will provide an assist for a winning goal in one of the games each. Even though I have my reservations about Gib’s and Flet’s ability and performance respectively this season…
On a separate note, I will personally never ever forgive Heinze for taking the club to the courts. He must be the greatest sinner of all ex-United players.
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story/_/id/883741/marseille-defender-gabriel-heinze-sorry-for-sir-alex-ferguson-feud?cc=4716
kanchelskis says:
mattbw7
What you talking about Giggs Park Nani and Valencia for? I’m talking about the centre of our midfield.
Well I also metnione Sholes and Carrick but you choose to ignore that and you the centre as if they operate in isolation, if the wide positions neglect the defensive duties it means the centre gets over run, the same is said of the forward line. Despite all that you say look where we are, even with all the issues you point out.
mattbw7: I am not so sure about the “nobody cares where you’re from”. This is not the first time we have someone saying “You dont understand Utd/You’re not a genuine supporter if you aren’t from Manchester” or “I’m a bigger fan than you are because I’m a season ticket holder for 40 yrs”. It’s faintly irritating at best, and parochial at worst. I honestly dont care much, but to say that it doesnt exist is not quite accurate IMO.
@Costas
1-1 or if we gonna play 4-5-1, then 0-1 or 0-0
anyhow, UNDER 2,5
@ Kanchelskis – What you swearing at me for? Anderson = 120 apps – 2 goals (Centre Midfield I’d like to add)
MrKirie says:
I understand the logic of fans investing less money into the club they support in order to try to force the owners out. But I don’t want those bloody Qatari’s in charge of the club I love. I don’t want to become another Chelski. I don’t want to be the new Citeh. The Glazers are aweful leeches who don’t give a damn about anything other than the bottom line…. Yeah, it’s called a businessman, and United is a business. Trust me, I hate it, I want fans to own the club, like Barcelona. But I DON’T want no friggin Qatari oil sheik buying the club I love!
How about a brewer or a butcher, the qataris are business people just take the time to look at their recent investments.
@YorYor
Well sure, in hindsight that will be great. And I’d love it if Anderson’s absence didn’t make a difference. Nonetheless, we can only go by what’s going on now and the truth is that Ando is a loss.
@Jeet
It does resemble last year a bit. The problem is that at least we had cover on our wings back then. Unfortunately, we can’t depend on Park and Valencia for the following weeks (and probably all 3 games against Arsenal, Chelsea and LIverpool). Plus, it will take them time to get back in the groove. Like I said, we can’t afford to lose more players.
@Costas: No Giggs in the squad? Is he injured? Till when? I daresay/hope we will see Evra as LW, as I dont think SAf would let Obertan out of the doghouse so soon. My preferred (not predicted) XI:
VDS
JOS Vida Smalling Fabio
Nani Fletcher Scholes Carrick Evra
Berba
I feel Oshea has done well defensively in recent times and can help cover up for Rio’s absence in defence. And if, just if, we give Berba a chance to prove his worth as a solo striker, he will really turn it on. The man has a mission on his mind this season. But, dont think it will happen – could well be Rafael as RB, Evra as LB, JOS as CDM, Obertan as LW and Rooney as striker…what the fuck do I know!!!
Hi Jeet, I hear you but really if people use that argument it makes no sense, we cant call oursleves a global club then castigate those fans who live overseas and while you will always get the odd UTD fan that thinks he’s better cos he goes though I suspect most of the critisism is from opposition fans so dont let it bother you.
I would imagine and correct me if I’m wrong that most of UTDs overseas fanbase are from countries where the level of football wasn’t the greatest in times past eg India, Africa (times past I mean) the US etc etc, I imagine the a far less overseas in fans in south america, most of europe, I could be wrong but in the main I suspect its true and nothing wrong with that.
@ mattbw7
I suggest you take the time to read my posts if you care to comment back at me. I was saying something very similar to what you were saying.
My point is that we need to unite a bit more as supporters. My point is that this divisiveness only weakens our great club. My point is that I have an equal right to express my opinion and never once did I say that my opinion was the only correct one. I correctly labeled it an opinion on a blog forum.
I’m over the fact that I’m an overseas supporter… did you not read my post? I’m simply asking United fans to embrace each other as United in support of United. I personally do not feel, as you intimated, that these protests will not change much. I don’t believe they have changed much. I think, as you intimated, that these protests will ultimately be unsuccessful and run the risk of doing more harm than good.
Again, I encourage you to read my full posts before replying.
LU.
@Jeet
Don’t know about Giggs. I haven’t heard about ay injury problems. I want to believe that Ferguson is keeping him fresh for the Wigan and Chelsea games and we are not dealing with another injury. After all that’s happened, this is how I see us lining up tomorrow:
VDS – Rafael, Smalling, Vidic, Evra – Nani, Carrick, Fletcher, Scholes, Rooney – Berbatov.
Ok I wud normally like to say something about the article and Man from states comments but…..
Why am i worried when I saw no Giggs on the list?
I hope the key players stay healthy,squeaky bum time now ,this run of games is tough.
Cmon Manutd!
I dont think Im going to have any nails left come end of the month and my digestive system is going to be affected.
wheres the tuak when i need it, smartalex did u take my tuak???
Well MansuyUnited, one thing I will say is you have no chance of the fans unitng in the way you think, there have always been divisions before the Glazers and now, fans typically are less interested in the ownership of the club than you think or why would they continue to buy merchandise, I still attend games and Im not entirely comfy with that but I need to feed my addiction to UTD.
So while I may applaud your sentiment I have to scoff at it on a practical level as it will never work, not trying to be overly negative but it is a fact, you only have to read some of the fanzines on a matchday to see the vitriol aimed at MUST who for some reason set themselves up as the voice of the fans.
Well I wonder , Bebe and Obertan have a chance to prove something here if they play. Bebe scored against valencia at the mestalla earlier in the season.
King Eric will be happy. Tunni,Pogba,King in the squad.
Dave Malaysia says:
Well I wonder , Bebe and Obertan have a chance to prove something here if they play. Bebe scored against valencia at the mestalla earlier in the season.
No he didn’t – that was Hernandez.
Bebe scored away at Bursaspor (just about – shades of own goal if we’re honest).
@ mattbw7 Fine, pardon me for attempting to care about our club. You scoff at what on a practical level? What am I calling for? I’m simply explaining the reasons I support United in the hopes that some of the doom and gloom will vanish from this great site. I sought, apparently in vain, to help re inspire some of the fans of this club in the way that I have been lifted up by similar posters.
Pardon me from trying to offer hope to the thousands of people who routinely visit this site. I guess I MUST accept the eventuality that there is nothing United about United, huh?
And I though City were the bitters.
@Mattbw: Totally agree…it doesnt make sense at all!!! Mind you, I do appreciate the sentiment of old timers who have seen the sport of football itself being much less commercialized. To them football is a great throwback to working class family values, where you supported your local team through thick and thin, travelled with the team up and down the country, and dint really care too hoots about where the money was coming from. I totally get that, and how I wish I could experience that trip myself! But fact is, like it or not, things have changed. If you wanna compete at the top, you need to have a global fan base. I hate glory hunters as much as the next guy (and being in India I do get to see a lot of them – to them Utd, or ManU, as they call it, is nothing more than a trendy red shirt that goes well with a gelled hairdo), but to use the “local is superior” or “overseas supporters are all glory hunters” is pretty much like burying your head in the sand, or labelling all Brit teens as yobs. By the way, you are right. Asia is mostly red (though an increasingly divided one between Arsenal and us), I am guessing Latam supports one of the 2 spanish giants, and europe has their own teams. ONE UNITED!!!!
@Costas: I’ll stick with your predicted line-up all day, mate!!
@kanchelskis : damm i feel so embarassed ,yup u right bebe scored against bursapor,thanks mate.
I agree with others, it’s hard to accurately disaggregate all the variables that contributed to the decline in retail revenue, that said, I’ve not given the fucking Glazers a penny of my money since they took over, by various means I see United away to carry on supporting the players, but not the owners. I miss Old Trafford, but I can’t go until there’s a change of owners; I’m probably being far, far too idealistic in the hope that the fans will ever have a majority share of the club, but you never know, ideas change the world if enough people believe in them.
LUHG
Oh Im optomisitc MansayUtd but also realistic, I applaud your convictions of course I do but unity is not something you come accross at United. Its been a long held view to hate the club, love the team and I see no reason for that to change.
ando s absence is gonna affect us a little bit…he is the best suited player for this kind of a game..i am going with fletcher on the bench with ando replacing him..
@jeet Read my posts please before commenting. I’m not an old timer but a 24 year old who was only turned on to United 6 years ago. Dare to dream they say… foolish though it be…
MANsuyUNITED: I did! And I did note your ASL! Did you think I was contradicting one of your pts? I wasnt! In fact, I was agreeing to most of your pts (not sure about how we could spend more and get the club out of trouble though….but then, I am one penny pinching Scroogey bastard LOL). If anything, I wholeheartedly agree with you about the stupidity of the “local/older support gets Utd. and nobody else does”. Sorry if I crossed your lines. BTW you should post more often, you got real passion in your tone…
Here comes the goat, here comes what you don’t want to hear.
Profits are up this year with the good work that the Glazers have done to open up new avenues of income. United would be even more powerful had a handful of overly blinkered passionate people not decided to have a hate campaign against anything that doesnt comply with their fathers out dated socialist beliefs, i.e. anything yank. The Green and Gold campaign has done nothing but hurt United in the transfer market and then blamed the Glazers for that. The Glazers have opened up these new marketing areas and its more than probable that these new avenues will themselves pay for the interest payments in the near future. The Green and Gold campaign was started by “the big boys” amongst the fan group as they realised their time had come. No more touting tickets at ridiculous prices outside the ground on match day, the Glazers put an end to alot of that (not all) and hence the bitterness begins. The fans that so called gave up their season tickets were those that fell for the Green and Gold campaign to keep the ticket touters in business without a flood of new tickets land on the market (from the Green and Gold following who wanted to copy their idles). Everyone knows that alot of tickets go on general sale nowadays so what am I on about. I assume that everyone that wants to watch United and can only come occasionally (the customer group for the touts) actually would prefer to be at pitch side or the stretty end rather than be in Row H tier 4 of the North Stand which are usually the tickets available on general. I mean those people have a larger budget as its a day out for them. The same fans that used to tout their tickets often never went to the games themselves so the so called not putting the money in the Glazers pockets and not going to home matches crowd were happy to be at a completely different match, it made no difference to them (FC United). They kept their season tickets of course because how else would they see the away fixtures.
@ mattbw7
Fair enough. As I’ve said, I still have a lot to learn about United’s history and welcome anything you have to offer. One of my points though, has been to offer it in a manner befitting of our great club. I will humbly bow out of this discussion but will never change my convictions. That is what is so special about United to me, it affords me those convictions and reaffirms my willingness to believe in them.
I personally believe that practicality is for the birds. Many of United’s greatest moments defy logic and understanding. Those are the magic moments of this magic club. Long may my fool’s eyes be blinded by that beauty!
I do think we are all United in this though. I hardly know a thing about you but I’m damn sure I know where you’ll be on Wednesday. And I’m damn sure we’ll be feeling very similar emotions.
As I’ve mentioned, this is my first time posting. I aim to continue contributing. Guess you’re stuck with my idealism for at least a little while yet
I’m sure we’ll learn to live with each other just fine.
Goat – howz them knickers?
Ouch!! Big horny Goat with brains and sharp horns in da House yo!
oh dont stop posting Mansayunited, all debate is great.
Goat I wish it where as clear cut as you say but there is a constant conflidt between my support for the club (as an ST Holder) and enriching people who are raping the club and I guess its something I will wrestle with till thier gone.
wayne
Send me your address mate I’ll send you a shirt from here – works out cheaper – lol
I have no further comment apart from I hate the Glazer’s as the next red but hurting the club is not hurting them it’s hurting the club – so that’s the end of that.
MANsuyUNITED
Don’t worry mate Im a United fan living abroad and I used to get stick on here before I became known.
mattbw7
Foreign United fans have been ridiculed by fellow United fans for years mate. Im English myself and just living abroad but Ive been ridiculed half my life for not being an authentic manc (surrey boy). I have always been a United fan and at first it was because all my friends were Liverpool fans and I like to be different, always have been. I think the endless black eyes and attempts on my legs during practice matches makes me an authentic fan.
Its a shame that when Liverpool fans, City fans and the mockneys down sarf take the piss out of United for having few fans that actually come from Manchester, the die hards need to save face in the eyes of the enemy and say “Yeah I know” ” they’re not real fans” etc etc. It happens, Ive always said, I support the club, not the players and I only wish we had the worlds best fans to go with the world best club.
As for the importance of Manchester having fans from outside of Manchester you only have to look at City. There are only so many fans of football in Manchester. Most youngsters follow the team that is prominant in the area they live, who their friends support and who the family support. There are the odd situation where a son or bean flicker hope allegencies but its rare. If it was just Manchester United fans from Manchester who loved the game so much that they would go to every home match then Im affraid the stadium would be at best 2/3 full. In a world where “men” (lol) become more feminized and football in general isnt the be all and end all that it was at the beginning of the last century to the fifties then it is assumed the footballing attendencies will drop UNLESS you can attract a much bigger audience, those from abroad. Nowadays the average manc (same as everywhere) going through his teens is much more inclined to spend his money on skin products, nice clothes, computer games and fagging about at coffee bars. Look at the decline of all other previously recognised working class institutions. Ale has become lager then alco pops. Pubs have become wine bars then coffee houses. Flat cap and whippet has become Calvin fucking Cline jeans and a lap dog. Telling the odd saucy joke and singing a few rude verses has become agreeing that the woman are the supiour sex and attending liberal readings of some half witted spanish poet.
Fucking face it! We are English, we are shit, we are fags and a 5ft6ins Gatuso kicks our arse over and over again. Italy > England. We need their hard third world image to give authentisity for our working class sport.
i agree with goat by the green and gold campaign we are getting our voices heard but we are weakening the foundation and not even knowing anything about it…..
we have to consider that by hating the glazers we are actually cursing the basic concept that is buisness they do….as long as they stay healthy the club stays good…i am not supporting them but i am discouraging the fact to take every issue and using against them….
yes we are fans
we have the right to speak for the club…
but we have to consider the collateral damage that we are doing by getting in a thing that we dont have a hand in…….
But I didnt have a go at “foreign” fans goat!
Ando is out for two months?!? Rio isn’t making the trip?!? What is going on with our physios???
Goat: Top fucking post as usual. And its not just England, the whole fuckin world is getting pansy-ised. You had Deep Purple and LedZep – you got metrosexual boybands now. The 15-25 yr old age group is just one amorphous mass of spoilt bratdom. Globally.
MANsuyUNITED
Others have made the same points as you, but at this stage, no one is gonna change their opinions, on the Glazers mate. I’ve no problems with our supporters from overseas. United are a global club and are what makes this club great IMO. Maybe Andymufc thought you were preaching to him and he took it the wrong way. The ownership debate is an emotive issue on RoM and tempers can get somewhat frayed at times.
mattbw7
No I was havent a go at you, dont think that, you answered a post by MANsuyUNITED so I aimed the discussion at you not to you.
I do appologise and every here dont have a go at mattbw7.
Ok you can have a go goat but when you aim correctly, as for the Glazer argument Im glad you think we should continue to fund without thinking, thier running of the club, as for thier commercial activites methinks necessity is the mother of invention.
No sure there is to much of a distinction between “at you not to you”.
Mansayunited made a reference to older fans socialist principals and alluded to that being one of the tenets as to why there was so much opposition here to the Glazers, what utter twaddle, there migh be loads of reds at untied but I doubt there are many commies
Financial returns for quarter to 31st.December 2010 to be announced on Friday.If there are an improvement in trading figures wont that kind of nullify this topic.
jeet, too true.
Robert Plant and Jimmy Page dressed a little bit feminately and the homo brigade minced about saying they did it and they are pioneers. Maybe they should have focused on the whole thing rather than the spandex and tight jeans and sequins and understood the music a bit better. If they are going to take things literally then why didnt they take note of the montey python crew dressing up as women. I would one enjoy that. There is fuck all wrong with a chap dressed up poorly in old girls clobber and acting the twat, its just a laugh. Nowadays how do you know the difference, teenage girls look like a fucking 12 year old boy from behind, no hips starved half to death. Boys with girlie hair dos, its no fun flashing outside schools nowadays. Its one thing being infront of the magistarte for flashing to school children but to be labbelled a poof.
Bringing the latest bounty home for a nightclub isnt much fun either, pulling the unisex trousers down round their ankles and getting fucked in the eye by an out of proportioned cock as it springs out from their butt cheeks is no fucking fun. Briefly a surge of excitement goes through as you think of girls with giant clits and youve hit the jack pot. Its also not fair that when the police knock on the door and drag you through the courts for knocking the wooly woofter out. The judge looks at you as some big bully, its not your fault that his parents (who no doubt got ideas off the net and fucked him as a puppy) didnt show him the joys of a lard and jam sandwich. Fucking world, where is it going.
Ahh goat…you got me in fuckin splits with that…speechless and LMAO
and Ando is out for 8 weeks. hmhh.
@mattbw7
No I dont think we should fund the Glazers without thinking, I for one welcome the Green and Gold campaign as I believe the majority have a sincere grievance and opinion on the matter and Im glad people are as passionate for my club as I am. Im one who believes in all the groups and opinions of the world. It helps to keep things in balance and to stop one side running with the batton and making a mess, ala Germany 1933-45.
I argue against the Green and Gold mainly as I hear too much one sided arguments on here and I want both sides of the argument to get aired. A persons argument is only valid if it can withstand the rigours of cross examination and all that.
I havent bought a shirt but thats because I generally wear mine every day (not just matchdays) and they just fucking fall apart and Im fed up with that. The bloody sponsors logo never lasts much more than 15-20 washes and thats barely a couple of months for my shirts, meaning I go through a whole season needing x ammounts of shirts. But I havent invested in anything Green and Gold either because I want to know where the money goes and how that help either Manchester United or Unicef.
jeet, I dont think you’ll get your knickers mate I sent you. I think the post woman knicked them at the post office. Shes getting rather fat now tell you the truth. I told you they were soiled and of fine quality. Oh well another paternity suit coming my ways. The last one was from wanking on bike seats, who would have guessed.
if we are going for a lone striker we are heading for a 1-0 win,which is unstable
Nice sidestep goat
On the shirt issue I stopped buying in 96 cant think of a reason just sort of stopped and I cant see me buying one anytime soon but then who am I to talk I still go and buy a beer before kick off, though I’d much prefer bitter to keep with my socialist principals and dour demeanour.
I agree mostly with mansuyunited.
I’m from manchester and sick of the crap of true supporters only come from manchester. I’m also of the opinion that green and gold is damaging our club. We are killing ourselves, which only helps our rivals.
People have always made money off our backs, but a long as we keep winning, then I’m happy. The glazers are a nessesary evil in the modern world.business wise they have been good for the club
@mattbw7
“nice side step goat”
I thought you would have guessed with my slightly odd sexually activities and my liking of tranvestitism that indeed Im a budding politician and side stepping is my speciality.
Its cutting you nose of to spite your face. We were a PLC anyone could buy us, glazer chose to. who are we to say he cant buy a business.
Just heard Jack Wilshire being compared to Paul Scholes on TV……….lol!
transvestism, now your talking
jespermoses says:
Just heard Jack Wilshire being compared to Paul Scholes on TV……….lol!
Problem is he does have that kind of talent but not the stature
Totally off this topic,
its crystal clear that we need to invest in midfield in the summer. Looking at our squad list to Marseille, the midfield part, and you don’t see a really strong midifelder. We do have them- Hargo and Ando, but they’re both out. I’m joining the i-want-a-world-class-midfielder-bandwagon. 442, and our midifeld is weak, its a liability. We’re better with 451 in the big games, which means Berba warms the bench, and really to stop these limitations we have we need a Midfielder.
Gosh, it seems like a million years since i typed the word BERBATOV. When was the last time he player-seems ages ago. Wonder if Berba will start though. Its Europe-Sir Alex goes for the lone striker 451. And he usually puts Rooney for that. I’m not being cynical but i think we’re the only team that puts our top scorer, who’s also the league top scorer, on the bench and get away with it, without a single whine from the striker. Hail the Berbs.
Sorry for the many typos!
Oh man, how long is Ando’s lay off, i read 2 months somewhere?! Kill me.
Fergies had the thought of spending in January, so he thinks we needed another CM, if you believe that player was Rodwell. Add to that, we could have brought Cleverley back from Wigan and now these fucking injuries.
Jesper & Mattbw: If they are comparing Wilshire to Scholes, then it cant be complimentary, right?!!!
KingOfStretfordEnd: We absolutely need a class CM. Enough fucking around, no more games, no more “potentially great” 20 year olds – we need someone seasoned and proven class at the topmost level. I still believe that we made a huge blunder not asking for Sneidjer in the Ronaldo deal. As the great man would have said, “god only knows”, but the last year and a half could have been very different with him.
There are many players that are named the new ……………., they rarely go on to eclipse the hero figure. But isnt it fantastic that Scholes is regarded as one of the greats, one of the hero figures. A huge congratulations to one of the most loyal, consistant and dominating players of the game the world has seen and for those that spotted him and brought him through the ranks.
As for Wilshire, hes not in the same league, I dont remember too many headed goals. I couldnt imagine him being used as a supporting center forward like Scholes was. I can’t see him controlling a matches tempo, playing on the left, supporting the striker, getting stuck in and scoring a goal either from outside the box or inside amongst it all in the same match. At the same time staying loyal to a club all his playing life, not having an agent, not ripping off his club, never saying a bad word and being thoroughly respectable even through bad times, and not being a loud mothed party boy and cheating on his missus.
To be totally truthfull, if you had a daughter and she brought home a Paul Scholes as the future son in law you would feel you had won the pools, sod the money, the man is a gentleman.
gotta agree with petemanc. To say we lose the league without Ando is frankly laughable. I can count on one hand the decent games hes put in. Arsenal, Brum and Blackburn. Thats it. Time for fucking Ryan Tunnicliffe to step up. Beast of a lad, hard as nails and won’t give a fuck. Also time for Fletch and Carrick to get their fucking fingers out. United always triumph in the face of adversity.
He was compared to Duncan Edwards, by a gooner on talksport. Pogba will clean him out, in a few years, though.
Willie
Who was compared to Duncan Edwards?
@ jeet
Yes. I did fancy Sneijder but wasn’t all hooha over it cos i thought we were still good and solid with Fletch, Carrick. But those 2 aren’t stepping up. More disappointed with Fletch though, since we’re all used to Carrick’s ups and downs. Fletch’s been our main man, for the past few seasons. But i thought he did well against city a week ago.
@ King Eric
I’m all for your last line. We just have to work harder with all these injuries. Really someone to wake Fletcher up. As for Carrick some needs to SHAKE HIM up. I can’t imagine how he panicked with the ball with no pressure whatsoever against Crawley, and gave it away. AND i can count with my fingers-the number of forward passes (which he can do as we’ve seen before)he makes in a game.
pound to a penny lads barring injuries Scholsesy and Giggsy will play their skins out the next couple of weeks.
I am sorry I just don’t see Ando as that great a miss that some are saying. At times in my opinion he can be a liability. Gives the ball away far too often. The same can be said for most of the midfield at the minute though. Come on Fletcher lad more performances like the Citeh game son. Gibbo more performances like Munich at home. Thats why Fergie is the best around. He will steer us through this. Anyway I cannot stress enough I wanna see Ryan Tunnicliffe. Yes he is young, yes he is unproven but he is the beef we need at the minute. He will not back out of a tackle with any cunt. Just shows Fergie feels the same . His performances have warranted him a first team squad place at just 18. Pogba and Morrison are excellent but not quite physical enough yet imo. Hence the reason its Tunni thats travelling.
willie – Ryan Tunnicliffe could wipe the cunt out NOW mate.
Yes Fletcher has struggled but against Arsenal and City he was excellent. Big games require big Darren. As for Rio would have been shitting myself a month ago. Not so now with the emergence of Smalling.
@King Eric
Hi mate. No the league isn’t lost, but it’s getting a lot harder to retain it. The funny thing, is that Anderson has had more good games in the last 3 months than Carrick or Fletcher have had all season. And anyway, you slice it, now is not the time to be losing players like him for weeks.
Khedira and Oezil arent the answer. Ozil cant get past 70 minutes. He would be fucked in Ingerlund. Van Der Vaart? Yeah great start to the season but fuck me, the lad has barely done fuck all since Nov. Injured again I see.
@mattbw7…..he’s not fit to lace Scholseys boots mate
Costas – Oh I agree mate, of course its a loss but I just disagree about him been great the last 3 months. I can only remember 3 games as listed. As I say it really is time for Carrick and Fletch to step it to the level we know they can play. If Park was fit we would be ok. Fucking Hargreaves? Its not even funny now.
Is it definitely two months for Anderson?
If the player compared with Edwards is Wilshere then the said person who made the comparison is a complete idiot. Edwards was the most complete footballer that ever existed and will ever exist. Comparing him to a young prat like this deluded gooner is an insult to football and its history…
Please tell me that was not the case before I explode
Cedars – Hello mate. It was indeed Wilshire compared to Duncan Edwards last week,. I heard it myself.
CedarsDevil – the only player I would compare edwards with forf versitility is john charles. Typical gooners, this was the same mugs who dared to say their 2004 side was greater than our 94 and 99 sides
@King Eric
He’s had more good games than bad since November. Plus, I have to say that the team looked worse off without him in the side in that time period. The worst thing is that this injury comes on top of losing Park who could have done a job in the center, especially in the games we have coming up in March. Like I said, lets hope we don’t lose anyone else until Park and Valencia get back next month.
The time length of his absence hasn’t been confirmed yet. I heard that they would reevaluate the problem today. Hopefully Sir Alex will have an update today.
King Eric – its not so much of a miss, its just numbers. our current midfield is in the worst form of its life, the last time I saw us play this bad in midfield was the 2004/05 midfield, followed closely by the 2003/04 midfield. carrick and fletcher are playing down right woeful this year. I have been so desperate for fergie to go out and buy a midfielder to freshen up, what has been a midfield that has gone stale, it needs freshening up big time. Sometimes cycles come to an end, and our engine room has come an end of a cycle. Its time for fresh faces
King Eric
That is a shame to the football world……….. The only football picture I have in my house is that of my late dad taken with Edwards in 1955…. To have him compared with a spoiled fuck like this gooner lad is such a shame to history, in fact comparing anyone to the EDWARDS himself is a disgrace…
I grew up learning about Edwards and what he was capable of, and so for logics’s sake please never bring his name into any discussion. especially in any comparison.
RIP Duncan
@andyMUFC.
Spot on my lad. Well said.
King Eric: Bless you for your never say die enthusiasm!! I totally believe that Giggs and Scholes will play outta their skins. Giggs’s wrath against Blackpool was a sight to behold. But, and surely you will agree, it does affect our plans. Like Costas, I am not prophesying the end of our season with Ando’s injury, but yeah, it got harder.
I do hope we get someone seasoned and world class. We have the promising youngsters – we got Pogba and Tunni, and we are largely sorted in defence and striking dept.. But we need to buy at least ONE top, top player in the engine room. I dont care if its Juan fucking Veron, or a 29 yr old who holds the fort for the next 3-4 yrs, but we need the right mix of youthful promise and proven experience, of graft and guile and we dont seem to have it in MF at the moment.
The other thing that drives me mad is why do we have to rely on Giggs and Scholes to play out of their skins to bail us out every fucking time? Giggs’ wrath against Blackpool was a sight to behold – not only was he skillful, it was clear that he was taking it personal, not business, in the words of the godfather. Why can’t we see Obertan, or for that matter even Carrick taking it that way? What about Gibson – does he take it that personal? The twins do, Rio and Vida do, Evra does, Flecth does, Neille did, Park does, but we need and want every one of our players to bleed red on the pitch. When a player puts on the red shirt, it cant be business, its fucking personal. Is it individuals, or is it another manifestation fo the world going pansy?
@andymufc
The problem is those people who back campaigns to starve the club of revenue are doing exactly what they have been blaming the Glazers of doing and potentially alot worse than the Glazers.
The Glazers HAVENT been leaching money out of the club for their own personal gains. Anyone who claims they have is an idiot who is buying into the myths that MUST have spread and the money that is going out will still have to go out anyway so all thats being done is reducing the rights based income the club generates, thus making the costs that are covered with ease atm harder to cover.
You and others have bought into MUST lies and keep buying into them despite the fact that 99% of their claims have been proven wrong and continue to be proven wrong.
And how fucking arragant of you to imply that anyone is a lesser fan just because they don’t live 5 miles away.
@dela
How is the no value argument bollocks. There is a difference between breaking a transfer record for the right player and breaking records just for the sake of it. The fees (and wages) are at a level that paying them for the sake of it is only a valid option when you have someone chucking money at the situation rather than it being run as a business. Value after all doesnt mean cheap, it relates to a variety of factors. And when people raise the value issue they always bring up people like VdV and Sneidjer. The problem with both of these players were being quoted as 20mill plus when enquiries were being made. They were relativly last minute deals that weren’t offered around
We had a big money bid in for Silva the same year we bought Berba, we had a big offer in for Benzema and a big offer in for Villa so its not as if money isn’t looking to be spent by the club, its what its always been about at United and thats buying the right player for the club not just buying a player for the sake of it.
And while the likes of Hernadez, Bebe and Smalling seem like cheap buys they are all untested players who had potential and the fees are large.
Also since Berba the Financial Fair play rules have been on the cards, which any club being run sensiable has had to take into account. If you look at Chelseas financial results BEFORE their recent big spending they are over £50mill a year away from meeting the FFP regulations and their commercial ventures are not growing anywhere near the required rate to cover that
“van der Vaart, Sneijder, Robben, Khedira and Ozil”
As mentioned above VdV was Sneijder were never options as the cheap deals don’t appear to have been offered to us. VdV especially was being quoted at over 20mill around the time we were supposedly enquiring about him and i’m not sure he is a player who SAF would have considered even if the late deal was given to us as he is the kind of player who needs the team built around him and other players sacrificed, something Harry has admitted he has had to do.
Robben was never foing to be an option after the way he spurned us to join Chelsea, it shows the wrong kind of attitude for United. And Ozil I think its clear we were interested, the question is did SAF get put off when watching him by not seeing him fit United or when the supposed discussion took place at Fulham did Ozil indicate he wanted to join Real
@mattbw7
You also only have to look at the investments to see they aren’t owner material. They own ONE business outright and thats Harrods, a big deal yes but small fry in the grand scheme of things. They are investers who buy a non majority stake for a financial return. They rely on the other shareholders business knowledge to make this profit. If they buy United its for rivally reasons and that isn’t the making of the right owners. THEY ARE NOT BUSINESSMEN
Also while their human rights record is getting better and they are more progressive than alot of the states in the region their human rights record is still far from stellar. It is a major issue for any state backed owner be them from Qatar or China or any other nation as it makes the countries actions our actions and could damage the clubs brand
” even Fergie took over I recall we where 2 million in debt and losing 200k a week”
To add to this the PLC was constantly using a 20mill overdraft to keep the club out of the red
” as for the Glazer argument Im glad you think we should continue to fund without thinkin”
There is nothing wrong with keeping the owners on their toes but the problem is MUST from the off have been stepping over the line for their own benefit and have dragged alot of the normal fans with them. They spin EVERY last thing to turn it into an anti Glazer matter and they belittle the good things they have done. From the off they haven’t been given a chance, they turn up at OT the first time and had to be smuggled out in fear for their lives, they keep getting accused of taking money out of the club and every published financial result shows they haven’t takem the dividend but MUST will still be claiming they will be a few weeks later, people ignore the complex business factors that come into play and skew the figures in the finacial results when it comes to the holding company for the club and their other business’s (The club makes a profi, the holding copany would without the non cash Goodwill deductions).
MUST are run by a bunch of socialist idiots who want to cause problems to feel important and they will only be happy when they feel they have control of the club. They are using the oridinary fans to acheive this goal and its dispicable imho as it weakens the club.
RE: Anderson
Its a blow but I think people are blowing it out of proportion. Fletcher has been struggling but its teh kind of situation where he has stepped up to in the past and Carrick gets alot of stick but is under appreciated for the task he does which allows the team to tick.
We still have Giggs and Park who can play central who may be injured now but hopefully shouldn’t be out too long. Valencia is back in training and plays central for his national side.
Gibson does worry me if he has to play, simply because I feel he lacks in his positioning and reading of the game which sees him byassed by the game BUT he was fairly good in the first half against crawley and was good against Bayern both when he played as the AM in a 3 man midfield so perhaps he could be solid enough playing there
@KingOfStretfordEnd
The problem is when people say we need to invest in certain areas of the squad is it usually comes when there is an injury crisis. Last season people were saying we needed more defenders but in a normal situation the likes of Brown, Fabio, O’Shea, Evans and Smalling all stuggle to get significant game time as we are well covered. Same with the Wingers atm where when all fit we how do we get them all game time
@jeet
If we had asked for Sneidjer in the Ronaldo deal it would have seen us get a much worse deal. At the start of that window they were telling clubs £20mill for him and he hadn’t really done much in Spain. It only looks like a missed opertunity due to his performances in Italy and wasn’t worth the 20mill they were after.
The mistake was maybe not bidding £12mill towards the end of the window but then us and Inter may have bumped the price back up to £20mill. 12mill was still a risk based on his time in Spain but its more acceptable risk taht 20mill
Cedars – Yeah, Wilshere mate.
Thanks Willie, then I am dead and have gone to heaven…… Wilshere compared to Edwards?
No thanks, would rather be dead than to listen to that shit
Off topic – http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11095_6771550,00.html where the fuck do they get this kind of arrogance from??
On topic – Its time for our under performing midlfielders to step up to the plate on wednesday. With Ando now out in what looks to be fairly long term we’re thin on the ground in central mid, so fletch, carrick and and gibbo all need to play their part and raise their game. Get the ball rolling on wed and against wigan and carry it through into our big games coming up. I am personally confident that fergie can get the best out of them like in previous seasons at this big part of our season!
Even though Rio will be missed, Smalling is looking quality and I have total faith in the lad.
on topic on what everyone was talking about, not the original blog lol.
and apologies if i’ve repeated what others have already said.
wakey – I think you are overavulating carricks actual role. If he is playing the DM role he has still got to have bite about his game, and show domminance in the engine room. If he is playing the passing game he has got to get hold of the ball look confident, actual be confident he aint, he has also got to get the wide boys into the game by getting the ball to them. But even if united had almost everyone fit united still need investment in the engine room, fergie always says we never stay still well this is the longest I have seen fergie go without buying a midfielder. Also fergie bought into that area when we had keane scholes and butt beckham and giggs in their prime,
wakey – He could be out for 2 months, hows that going OTT? From what I can gather, some of the posts are talking in terms of losing another player, which we couldn’t afford, with a tough run of games coming up. Not, that he’s been brilliant all season. It’s a blow, no matter how you look at It. It means, has less scope to juggle the CM area. Now or never for Gibbo IMO.
*Fergie*
willierednut – also scholes has had a bit of an injury hit season, has he got the legs for the runin. anderson has been really good this year, yes he has not played a huge amount of games but his legs and acceleration is a big help for the run in.
mentioned it on a different thread o’shea can play as a defensive midfielder he had a good game against everton in that role.to suggest the title is in jeopardy because anderson is injured is pretty silly.
Glad its having an effect. I’m glad we decided to do it, all those months ago. They’re still not happy about it and that’s wonderful, because they’re not welcome here and shouldn’t have been allowed in.
JOS will do a job for you, but It’s not what you’re hoping for at this stage in the season. Not fair on the player either. I’d rather play Giggs in there. He has a football brain, at least. Gibbo will have to play a part as well.
@willie not saying its perfect but i’m not panicking like some seem to be,you’re right its time for gibbo to prove he’s utd class
I don’t think anyone should be panicking, but we could’ve done without It.
i agree but shit happens so the lads will have to step up,the reason jos gets 80k a week is for times like this i’m really not that worried
Jesper I dont think they where trying to say that Wilshere matches up to Scholes achievements or his persona rather that his playing style is similar and I think thats pretty obvious, he just a bit of a cock thats all.
Wakey wtf so the qataris only own one business outright (you sure about that) anyway you go on to say they rely on other people to deliver thier profits, well i havent seen Richard Branson fly a jumbo jet of late, I mention Branson as he actually espouses that if theres someone that can do a better job than you, hire them!
Just for the record they are the single largest shareholder in VW, I’ll check to see if thier designing cars to make you happy, they also own a majority of the Savoy as well as a few other prime London sites.
As for their human rights record, do we keep them in the dark ages for the deeds done in the past, I don’t think there is a goverment in the world that hasn’t a case to answer, the UK in Ireland (Im English by the way) the US with Guantanamo, the Russians in Chechnya etc etc.
The Glazers dont take any money out of the business? ok lets not talks about PIK debt what about the 500 mill borrowed against UTDs assets and future revenue that takes circa 40m a year to service plus all the fees they’ve taken, now it could be argued the interest payments aren’t going directly to them but who are the longterm benficiaries, not the club, for when they sell and at some point they will, they will pocket the profit and UTD to date has shelled out a minimum 300mill for the pleausure quite how that benefits the club I dont know. Call it business and Ill accept the argument for its just capitalism, tell me their not taking money out of the club and I’ll call you a liar.
And lastly you go on about MUST as if I’m a defender of them I dont know where you get that from.
wayne – I’m slightly worried, but I’m not at panic stations just yet. One things for sure, we can’t afford Carrick, or Fletcher picking up an injury.
You lot need to be taking supplements. I recommend vit D or some time in the tanning salon.
Pathos never had better company than any discussion that starts with Green and Gold.
In november we were having a go at any lad who predicted we might win the prem. We were in 4th or summat and Spurs were going to win it all. Now reality is starting to set in around the league, but not here at home. Come back in June, SAF will have it sorted and you lot will be back to discussing your hemorroids or lack of girl friends.
Give yourselves a break. In front by 4, into the quarters of the FA cup, looking good for the quarters of the CL, best squad in the prem, top goal scorer in the prem, fill in your favorite added points here….
So we are being pushed all the way. Wouldn’t want it any other way. Hope we win. But if we do, it won’t be with some of you screeming your lads to every win. Naw, you lot will be pissing yourselves that we didn’t buy Ozil someone named vdVaart. Give me a break. Give yourselves a break. You’ll live longer and we will win more trophies. Hmm, come to think of it.
Come on you Reds!
What a pathetic article.
Yay! we don’t have as much revenue coming in!! That means we won’t have the money to sign new players!!! Great news if you’re a real fan. The club won’t make as much money because we wear our old jerseys!(sic)
Do you really think that the few people that have conciously decided to wear their old jerseys has done this? Are you all so blind as to completely ignore the fact that the world’s economy has been in the toilet all year, particularily in England??
I didn’t know you needed an Economics degree to understand. Economy does poorly, luxury items such as jerseys and other team gear doesn’t sell as much. weird.
In a year when people are taking pay cuts in order to keep their jobs and are happy to provide food and clothing to their families you’d think you lot would understand the simple facts of these numbers.
So go on, wear your Umbro shirts. Keep advertising Sharp even though they no longer support the club. I’m sure it’ll help the club in the long run.
FletchTHEMAN – Pills? You could do with some mate.
The green and gold campaign wasn’t going to change things overnight or dramatically but was there to create awareness and actually change things in terms of the running of the club as there is no dialogue between the owners and the fans. It has done that. Personally I’m glad if Nike don’t make our shirts post 2015 because their kit designs lack imagination and creativity, they are just recycling the designs of previous kit makers. If Nike don’t renew there will be someone else who does with more money. United fans abroad will always get stick on this debate because its difficult for them to know the ins and outs unless they truly live it. The Automatic Cup Scheme for example which I was signed up to for my season ticket only to be told I wouldn’t get a ticket for United vs Barcelona Champions League Semi Final 2nd Leg in 2008. Its stunts like that which will piss off supporters who do live the match day experience and although it doesn’t make you any less of a supporter I can’t honestly expect those who live abroad to understand. Giving me examples of what teams from a different country from a different sport do is not going to make feel any better. Anyway criticise G&G all you want glad someone has the balls to do something and it may or may not be walking. Haters will always hate.
Like it or not, injuries are a fact of life. When they happen to regular first team players, others have to step up to the plate. And I am sure they will. But it amuses me when people say our “second-stringers” are “not up to scratch” and that’s why we need to go out and buy a bunch of A-list stars–so that when the regulars get injured, those who step in will be real class. Some people just don’t understand that players of that caliber won’t sit on the sidelines waiting for someone else to get injured or have a day off, before they can get a game. Players of that caliber want to be regulars themselves, and if they can’t get that here, they’ll go somewhere else. And tbh, why shouldn’t they? And why should this be so difficult for people to understand? No club is going to have 25 fucking superstars on their roster, because in any given match, only 11 can start, while another 11 won’t get any game time at all (and eight of them won’t even be on the bench).
Pick your favorite 25 names — the players you think would make a “dream squad”. Go for your life — money’s no object. Now tell me, which of those 25 are your regular starters, who’s on the bench, and how you’re going to rotate the squad to keep everyone happy? Because you’re not. Can’t happen. If we focus on the two major competitions, the PL and CL, I think there’s something like 51 matches in a season (assuming we go all the way in CL). If you so the math, for a squad of 25 ‘stars’ who all expect to start those matches, each player would have an average of 22 starts a season, out of a possible 51 matches. That’s just not enough to keep a top player happy, when he can fuck off to club X and get 40+ starts.
So second-stringers and journeymen are always to be exactly that: second-stringers and journeymen. The question is: can they do a job for us? And for the most part, players like JOS can. It might not be pretty. It won’t always be successful. And it certainly won’t be easy. But whatever guys like JOS lack in skill or talent, they still have that “secret ingredient” that all of SAF’s men have — that combination of pride, commitment and attitude that can see us through.
NRD … I was one of those who provided some similar examples from other teams and sports overseas. I wasn’t trying to make you feel better. I was just making the point that schemes like the ACS aren’t unusual. It won’t make you feel any better. In fact, it should probably make you feel worse, because the implication of what I’m saying is this: with a club as popular as United, schemes like that are going to be around no matter who owns the club, because that’s the sort of thing that happens when “demand” is consistently and significantly higher than “supply”. Of course, a different owner might not have the ACS as it is now, but you can bet they’ll have something equally nasty. (And in reality, it probably isn’t the owners who are inventing these schemes. More likely to be people like Gill, who run the business side directly.)
I’m not trying to defend the Glazers. There’s plenty of reasons to hate them, lol. But for something like the ACS, I think you’re stuck with it (or something just as vile) no matter who owns the club.
@ Stateside Aussie – Except its not an ACS if you read my point. Its an ACS for games they know aren’t going to sell out i.e Crawley and then a screwjob for a big game like Barcelona. Its disproportionate, either the club guarantees you a ticket or they dont. I’m not sure what they do in North America but I doubt its the same system. As for the ACS it was brought in a couple of years into the glazers tenure and wasn’t there when the parasite Kenyon was in charge of running the club for the shareholders. Now its been put in place it will be there forever, thats the point many were trying to put across the other day and got vilified for it. It was the breaking point for me that missing out on the Barcelona game and now I just pick and choose which games to go to that and not getting a single away game for 3 years despite having a season ticket.
With you on the ACS StatesideAussie, some utd fans bought home tickets for the blackpool away fixture and the only way the could do it was if the bought a 3 game package for £100 quid, I remember Blackburn doing similiar things years ago cos a mate used to go and as you say if you wanted a high value ticket you can bet the the other games you where “forced” to purchase wheren’t for Arsenal or Liverpool.
I dont like the ACS as much as anyone and as such I’ve opted out of carling cup games, which now means I can’t apply for away tickets which to be fair suits me as I can neither afford the cost or time but it is a bit sly.
NRD … well, I think I understand how it works, but let’s double-check:
* In order to guarantee yourself a seat at the big PL matches, against the likes of the rent boys or the arseholes, you need to buy a season ticket. If you don’t buy a season ticket, you can try to buy single tickets for those matches, but you may be out of luck. But if you have a season ticket, you know you’ve got a seat.
* But because of the ACS thing, you can only buy a season ticket if you also buy tickets to home Cup matches.
Is that right?
So what I am saying (not defending!) is this…
This is just another form of packaging or bundling, which is a very common pricing strategy in a lot of businesses: you have some things to sell where demand is much greater than supply (like tickets for a home match against shitty), and you have other things which are in much lower demand (like Cup tickets for Crawley). So they are bundling the two together: if you want to be certain of a seat for a home match against the dippers (which is in high demand), then you have to buy a ticket for the thing that’s in lower demand. And the reason they can do this is that they know demand for big PL matches will always be higher than the supply. This is especially true for things like sports, where “supply” is fixed by the stadium capacity. In general manufacturing, you would try to increase supply to meet the demand, but with a fixed number of tickets, that isn’t possible. So instead, they cash in on demand, either by raising prices, or by using it to flog more of the stuff that they usually would have trouble selling, or by some other method. They know they may piss off some people like you, but they also know that someone will buy those deals, even if you won’t.
So all I’m saying is: while that situation exists (fixed capacity, overpowering demand for certain tickets, plus a commitment to sell tickets for games with much lower demand), there will always be some scheme like this in the wind.
I know you don’t care about what happens in other sports or countries, but just for clarity: most US sports don’t have separate league and cup competitions. Instead, they have a hybrid system, where there’s a home-away league for most of the year, followed by a playoff series for the team tops in the league at the end of the year. So that’s slightly different, but the solution is conceptually the same. Here, the club’s “problem matches” are league games against “nothing teams”. Those are the ones with much lower demand, where they might have empty seats. But, just like us, they have other league matches where there’ll never be enough seats to go around. And then, of course, for the play-offs, demand goes through the roof. So what they do is a variation of the ACS thing, but conceptually, it’s the same: the only way to guarantee yourself a seat for the major league matches and the playoff matches, is to buy a season ticket. A season ticket includes all the regular league games. It does NOT include tickets for the playoffs — those have to be bought separately and are very expensive. BUT: season ticket holders do get to stand “first in line” for the playoffs. Which, for most teams, means that if you want to go to the playoffs, you have to buy a season ticket first. And of course, by buying a season ticket, this means you are also paying for tickets you really don’t want (for the “nothing” matches). So even though the details are slightly different, it’s still basically the same thing: if you want the *right* to have a seat at the matches that are in high demand, then you must also pay for seats at matches which are in lower demand.
@mattbw7 … oh yeah, it is most definitely a bit sly. Anyway, I am done with the topic. I work with “pricing analysts” all day, don’t need to come here and fucking talk about it too lol. I must be bloody mad!
You love It, like our Wakey.
Just debating Stateside Aussie. It does make sense IF by opting for the ACS which guarantees you tickets for home league games and the cup games as well. I understand demand and supply and am fully aware that for home domestic and European cup games away supporters get more tickets and as a result some season ticket holders in East Stand have to be moved. What isn’t right is then a large contingent of season ticket holders then have to re-apply for these cup games along with members. Thats my big gripe. The season ticket holders should unequivocally get priority over members (even if it means I can’t go now that I’m just a member). It’s bang out of order for example that I attended the tripe that was Coventry in 08 and missed out on Barcelona whereas a member got my season ticket seat who couldn’t be arsed to go to Coventry mid -week in the league cup and witnessed the greatest atmosphere in years. Thats whats so wrong about it, and if demand does exceed supply then prioritise games for the season ticket holders there’s thousands of members who can fill the seats not filled by season ticket holders and away fans, or so one would think.
NRD … I’m with you totally on the CL thing. That really does suck. You’re 100% correct that season ticket holders should get priority over “members” or anyone else. In fact, I don’t understand why it doesn’t work that way. That would be more along the lines of how I described it working for playoff matches in the US: season ticket holders aren’t guaranteed tickets for playoffs (and some will miss out, because for the playoffs, the club has to make a certain percentage of seats available for fans of the visiting club), but at least they do get to stand “first in line” for whatever home tickets are available. Of course, those without season tickets don’t stand a chance, so for them, the whole thing sucks big time. But if you do buy a season ticket, you have a fighting chance of getting into those matches, and a better chance than anyone else, and that’s only right. Cheers!
@NotoriousRedDevil
For popular Champions League games how do you expect the club to be able to offer all Season Ticket holders their usual tickets? The Away team allocation for these games is greater than an English Cup or League match and there is a greater press area and Uefa take a large chunk of seating for their own use. The bigger the match the more this allocation grows and the more likely the total allocation will be taken up thus less being available to season ticket holders.
And yeah its then unfair if tickets then effectivly go on general sale BUT I believe that there is a legal requirement for a certain number of tickets to go in general sale. Its why the tennis at Wimbledon has a certain amount of ticket on general sale each day. It certainly won’t be something the clubs intentionally choosen to do, they don’t get any more money from the members ticket sales over the Season Ticket holders so purposfully screwing over those who put down the season ticket money at the start of the season doesn’t make sense
@fergie is the boss
Start with a Blank canvas for Carrick and watch what he does. He isnt flashy or tough tackling but he is constantly in the right place to make the interception and break up play. He then keeps the ball moving an onto the more dangourous players.
Its not what he was bought for or what he did so much a few seasons back but it seems to be the role SAF wants him to play and he does it well. In that role he sometimes gets a little too negative when a more offensive ball is on but its not like Xavi and Iniesta at Barca don’t play their fair share of sideway and backward and many of their forward balls are short 5 year triangle passes which the United style doesn’t really allow for
@willierednut
We are talking about a single player and not even a player who regularry starts games. Its a loss but losing him alone isn’t going to be a deciding factor. If we get another injuy and those who have slight injuries take longer to get back then it might be a problem
@mattbw7
We aren’t talking about them doing the low level jobs, we are talking about them running a business. The Qatars don’t run companies, they are effectivly the same as a Hedge Fund who are concerned not with running business’s but finding high yield returns to invest in. What exactly do the Qatars bring to the table from a management pov? Nothing as they are investors not businessmen.
Branson even if he hires the best people to help him out has a active role in the high level decisions of his interests, he isn’t just a bank there to fund them. He brings an important business mind to each of them to get the most out of them
On the human rights record, sure every country has a human rights issue, Qatar however still does have them. And the other countries mentioned aren’t said to be interested in buying the club.
There is a difference between taking money that the Glazers have been accused of and taking a business decision to produce greater profit in the long run. Even with the interest payments the clubs profits are vastly greater than they were under the plc and most of the increases in the profits are ones which the PLC couldn’t have acheived due to the structure, the lack of single focus which spliters leadership and the lesser business knowlede/contacts it had (If you look at one of the main things that started the takeover it was Magnier and McManus list of the issues with the PLC’s leadership ‘defrauding’ shareholders. These included paying 3 times the usual agent fees, staffing being bloated and revenue streams being ignored or not exploited to the full potential). Again its just like the PLC used to go into its overdraft regularry and cost the club money that way to make money in the longer term.
And you (and others) are the ones who ultimatly seem to bring up MUST’s arguments. If you conciously support them or not you are being infulences by their twisted ‘facts’
Oh and “ok lets not talks about PIK debt “. WHat PIK debt?
wakey – You’re expecting no more injuries, are you? If Carrick, or fletcher get injured, we’re really up the creek, you know the rest. Anderson is only out for 2/3 weeks apparently.
@Wakey, I guess NRD can speak for himself, but what I thought his last post was pretty clear:he said he was “fully aware that for home domestic and European cup games away supporters get more tickets” and so some season ticket-holders will miss out. What he was saying, though, which I do agree with, is that those season ticket-holders ought to get preference for what seats are available (after the allocation for the away fans and the press and whatever “general sale” tickets are legally required etc). Season ticket-holders should have preference for the remaining seats, in preference over “members” and others. What’s wrong with that?
@ wakey – Thats bullshit and you know it is. If that was the case then how come up until the last few years tickets for league games never go on general sale? Also Wimbeldon isn’t football its tennis different sport no rackets used in football. To add to your point the club has never had more than 50,000 season ticket holders (at least to my knowledge) away fans in Europe never get more than 10,000 for arguments sake which leaves even with a reduced capacity from 76,000 to 70,000 a spare 10,000 for members. They should not be lumped in for application with season ticket holders end of story. I know you get your rocks off defending the glazers but god almighty you are way off the mark on this point. Farcical post by yourself pal.
@ Stateside Aussie – You’ve completely understood what I’v been trying to say all along. Hopefully others can understand where I’m coming from.
@ wakey – http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/Regulations/competitions/Regulations/01/48/42/49/1484249_DOWNLOAD.pdf
Section 14.07 is of extreme note also nowhere does it say tickets must go on general sale. Sections 4.2-4.4 suggest UEFA and partners can receive anywhere up to 1000 tickets but still no legal requirement for general sale.
It has been a real effort to keep up with thread but an interesting one to watch develop. Thanks to anyone who has shown me welcome on this site.
@ mattbw7 Again, I think you’re reading what you want to read — not what’s on the site. I never referenced socialism or old timers, etc. That was jeet. Please be more careful about you attributions.
Maybe he wears glasses? You never know, that’s what I’m saying.
@NotoriousRedDevil
What have UEFA regulations got anything to do with legal requirements in the uk?
You will notice if you read my post fully that I mentioned Wimbledon which each day of the championships releases a certain number of seats on the show courts to the general pubic. So I wasn’t talking about the Champions league specifically or for that matter even football specifically
Its all down to how an event is classified and certain laws and regulation that goes with it. I can’t remember the specifics of it as I know about it from a 20min section of a uni lecture about 8 or 9 years ago and I also can’t recall what is considered general sale but I suspect all season tickets would be considered ‘exclusive membership’ tickets and hence not general sale but available to ‘members’ might be considered general sale. And there has always been a certain number of tickets available to members
Because I’m on about Champions League tickets you pleb wakey. At least my point is football related and has nothing to do with another sport! Read my post and stop being a glazer bum basher all your life. There are no legal requirements whatsoever regarding tickets being available to members just sponsors, away fans and thats it. 9 years ago we were still a plc and a lot has changed since then. You talk a good talk but unfortunately that always leads you to believe that you’re always right. In this case you are way off the mark. I’m done with this discussion.
NRD … “no rackets used in football” … this ticket thing sounds like a racket lol. Cheers!
Wakey … I believe some clubs have a charter where they commit to making a certain percentage of tickets available for general sale. But this is from United’s own website: “For most home matches tickets applications are only accepted from One United Members and tickets are not placed on general sale.” Seems pretty clear.
@NotoriousRedDevil & StatesideAussie
What is so difficult for you two to understand. There is a legal requirement for all EVENTS, sporting or otherwise for a percentage of tickets to be on general sale otherwise its classified as a private event which then has further implications, not least on the tax status, insurance status and policing.
I’m not sure what the wording relating to general sales are but I suspect being a member is considered that its gone on general sale as they aren’t ‘pre paid’
Without the ACS its potentially a different situation because then they are tied into the season ticket fee. Your trip to Coventry however wouldn’t have guaranteed you a Barca ticket at other clubs anyway. Other clubs to be guaranteed a ticket to the semi’s require you to have attended all the home group matches and the home knockout stages so a member could have got a ticket over you still at other clubs
Wakey … sorry mate, but you are starting to sound hysterical and slightly obnoxious. Aanyway, I expect you’ll calm down eventually. Or not. Up to you.
The only reference I can find on the issue of general ticket sales being required is in the Premier League Rules, where rule 4.9 says clubs must reserve at least 5% of tickets for sales to “non season ticket holders”. Presumably, members get those, and if there’s any left, the public could get them. But as noted in my previous post, United’s own web site says that basically tickets are not placed on general sale, so in our case, members get first dibs on any non seasonal tickets.
If there is any legal requirement in general UK law, over and above what’s in the Premier League rules, then I guess that either the PL is in sync with that requirement, or they are in breach of it. The latter is pretty hard to imagine.
I really don’t see how any of this changes the central argument that was being made: that when matches are not covered by season tickets, season ticket holders should get first right to take up any tickets which are available. If the total seats available is 75,957, then you would: subtract whatever allowance is needed for press or other ‘entitled freeloaders’; subtract whatever allocation is provided to away supporters; subtract anything else that is ‘required’ by parties beyond your control; subtract whatever the controlling body (or the law, or whoever) says must be available to the ‘general public’ and/or ‘non season ticket holders’ (5% for the PL, who knows for the CL?). Whatever’s left should then be offered first to season ticket holders. Whatever they don’t buy (and there could be a deadline/advance sales), can be taken up by ‘members’. And whatever they don’t want (which in our case would be three-parts of sweet fuck-all) would be available to any Joe who can muscle his way to the front of the line. What about that do you disagree with or not understand?
@StatesideAussie
I don’t and haven’t disagreed with thats how it should work, I disagree with NotoriousRedDevil’s assumption that that its not being done like that.
What we know is that OT has a reduced capacity of 74k on European nights. There are 8000 executive seats so that leaves 66k.
The season ticket figure was last season was 56k, but that was down also so we can assume when the Barca semi was played it was a few k more but as I can’t find a figure lets stick to 56k
Now the minimum amount that had to be offered to barca was 4k. That takes it down to 62k left available. Barca may have been given more tickets as its upto the clubs to decide and it may have been decided between them to give each other a greater allocations but I can’t find out for certain the given allocation.
Then remove the minimum amount that Uefa demand for them and the sponsors which I believe for a semi final is around 3k and we are then under 60k.
There will then be an unknown amount of other tickets that have to be reserved, some seating may need reserved for segregation issues (Don’t think its an issue with barca mind you), the media are entitled to a certain number of ‘hospitality’ tickets especially the host broadcaster and the club will obviously need some for their sponsors.
Factor in having to have a percentage that are legally considered to be ‘on general sale’ and you are well below the season ticket numbers. Based on Wimbledon when you discount the debenture that are private long term ‘leased’ seats you are looking at the public sale tickets accounting for between 5 and 10% of those available so that puts the Old Trafford requirement to be between 3,800 and 7,600
For a normal premiership game the season ticket numbers are perfect for the capacity but when the champions league causes a reduced capacity and then has significant seating allocation going to unusual sources and the demand being greater than normal anyway due to the opponent and the stage then ofc some season ticket holders will lose out. Thats hardly the clubs fault OR something they are trying to do just to spite some fans
Also as I have pointed out NotoriousRedDevil going to watch the Carling Cup Match against Coventry wouldn’t have played a part at any other club either.
When Liverpool last reached a Semi final their policy was ANYONE who attended all the previous Champions League home matches got a ticket, even if they were the only matches they attended all season. Then the remaining season ticket holders that didn’t meet the above requirement got the tickets.
It was the same for Chelsea and I believe Arsenal. No matter what way its done someone will get pissed off because for these kinds of games the available seating will be less than the season ticket holders
Wakey, may I suggest you do a bit of research on the qataris investment strategy before you condemn them as just bankers, if you did you would know that while the ruling family of Qatar own the investment company they do have well educated and proffessionally qualified qataris in the organisation as well other foreign experts to best advise and run the various enterprises they own.
The Glazers have increased the commercial activity of the club but you seem to suggest none of that would have happened in the lst 5 years under different ownership which makes no sense, also are you denying the fact of the 500m borrowed against the club for which the club is paying and when the Glazers come to sell do you think the club will benefit from any profit generated, again research time, have a look at the bond prospectus for the fees they charge. I’m well aware of the shady goings on while a PLC, the allegations of large payments to agents etc though Im not sure why you are using one set of poor management to defend another.
Human rights, where is your evidence of recent human rights violations in Qatar?
The most outstadning fact is that while we show an operating profit once we have sorted out our tax liabilities and paid the interest payments we have shown a loss in the last 5 years bar one when we sold Ronaldo for 80 mill and turned a 40mill loss into a 40 mill profit.
Again I have to say why do you accuse me of defending MUST arguments, find one piece of evidence.
And last, why no discussion on the PIK debt, simple it wasn’t secured against United it was the personal debt the Glazers took on while buying us and as such wasn’t secured on the club and the bond prospectus prohibited that debt being settled out of club finances so in the context of what it cost United there was no point in discussing it, that and the fact its been paid off, that good enough for you.
So what you’re saying, mattbw7, is that the Glazers put their reputation and financial position in this world under an enormous amount of stress in order to purchase the best football club in the world and ensure its long term profitability as owners so that they may see both return on their investments and, god forbid, profit?
Those sound like capable, committed and intelligent businessmen with a good eye for a good business when they see one. I submit that perhaps the G&G campaign, along with dissenting United fans, is a bit short term in both their evaluation of the club’s economic health. Perhaps they are failing to see the larger picture?
Again, just an opinion and point for debate. What’s that old saying? ‘Got to spend money to make money’? Something like that. As I’ve been attemping to say all the while on this thread, refusing to support Manchester United economically as a fan *appears* to be doing little more than adding doubt, frustration and angst to a club which aspires to overcome those odds daily. Need we add that pressure from within?
I say to G&Gers, when Sir Alex Ferguson comes out to the press and states his discontent for the ownership, then, and only then, should we aim to divide our club internally for the sake of its future. Otherwise, we are just making that man’s job harder. What happened when Wayne Rooney pulled his nonsense, Sir Alex didn’t quiver under the pressure. He came right out and addressed the public. Do you really think he’d quiver under the Glazers or think for one second that his managerial position would be in jeopardy as a result? Please! Those death-threats against the Glazers (which have been so ignorantly aimed at them) would soon turn into a reality. They were smart enough to buy and run United, they’re smart enough to know no one at that club is bigger than SAF.
mansayunited, if the dicussion was merely about business practice I would have less issue with your last statement, however my discussion with Wakey centered on the core issue of whether the Glazers have acted in the best interests of themselves or the club and thats what I responded too, to just say the Glazers have made the club more profitable is in fact a clever slieght of hand, yes they have increased the commercial revenue but the club still loses money once its tax liabilities and interest payments are met.
You say you’ve got to spend money to make money, who for, the club you say you love or a third party, I dont mind the glazers making a return on investment but at what cost to this sporting institution, in a true business sense you cant blame the glazers for what they are doing, nothing about thier activities are illegal but dont pretend for one moment that they are benefactors of the club, its a bloody insult.
None of the last 5 years have been good for the club, of course the blame lies with the FA for allowing Directors of Football Clubs to become paid positions in effect allowing them to be turned into business’ so you keep pretending the Glazers are managing our finances and the longterm future of the club I on the other hand will keep a more realistic view and hope we come out the other side still a club.
@mattbw7
Qutaris – I have looked into their investment strategy but that just supports my view. And condemning them is a bit strong, there is nothing wrong with Investors and Investor groups BUT there is a major difference between being Investors and being Businessmen. There is a completly different set of skills and a different mindset. And it doesn’t matter who they hire in their organisation, the buck stops as the people at the top, they can listen to advice from their employees and advisors but they have to make the final decision.
To be expert investors takes alot of skill, the Qutaris are good at this but the skill set doesn’t include the skills of running a massive sports francise (And before anyone complains, The Football club is just a part of the of a bigger Manchester United Francise. People often assume that a francise only means what the likes of Macdonalds do with their resurants or the way American Sports teams work, it doesn’t). If we want investors then fine they know how to identify good investors BUT if we want people who know how to run a business and know how to grow a business they have no background to suggest they know what they are doing.
Glazers – I didn’t say the increased commercial activity wouldn’t have happened under different ownership. I said that it couldn’t have happened UNDER the plc. A differnt private owner could have but any private owner would have had to fund it and if it was a leveraged buy out so the club was paying it directly the finacianing fees directly or it was more like Villa/Chelsea and it was funded by a loan which is then paid back with agreed payments/preferential dividends then the money would still be leaving the club. This is what always annoys me about those taking extreame anti Glazer views, they make stupid assumptions that either the PLC could have grown the club the way the Glazers have or that other owners would spend all the money to buy the club and not be taking dividends that are around the amount of the interest payments. If the Glazers do sell (Especially to teh Qataris) and the bonds are paid off the new owners will expect ATLEAST the interest payments paid back if not more. At the end of the day they have generated more money than they have incurred the club with the method of purchase so the clubs in a better business and financial state than it was before. Thats simply a great piece of business on their half as they have improved the financial situation of the business while keeping their own personal liability at a figure that didn’t cripple them (It cost them around 350mill to get to 30% to launch the takeover and then they put in around 200-250mill funded partly by the them and the rest by the PIK)
Human Rights – Just a year ago Qatar rejected a number of recommendations about their Human rights. See http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ugPi8KaWaNkJ:www.iheu.org/qatar-rejects-appeals-respect-human-rights&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&source=www.google.co.uk
Also check out all the Human Rights campaigners complaining about Qatar getting the World Cup when their human rights status is still a bit shady.
As I have said they are one of the more progressive countries in the area but there are human rights issues still and being state owned could damage United. Especially when it comes to certain commerical activity
Profits – There is a difference between club profits and holding company profits. The holding company profits are what you are refering to. The holding company has expenses that don’t appear on the clubs accounts and never would.The loss this holding company post can be accounted for by the non-cash Goodwill deductions made.Without it the holding company makes a profit. The club itself is making signifcantly more than it ever did as a PLC. Non-cash decudtions are just accounting write off designed to PROTECT the Cash in a business from the tax man
Ok Wakey, I guess your agenda on the Qataris business acumen wont be swayed by evidence as for human rights abuses, you only have to look at the recent protests last year where a newspaper seller was roughly pushed to the floor and subsequently died, he was just a normal guy leaving work and was totally innocent but I guess you wouldnt characterise this as a human rights abuse or the shooting of john de menezes a few years ago.
As for your lecture on holding companies etc, no need for it I’m well versed in company accounting processes, however the fact remains that United as company don’t in themsleves post a profit once the liabilities are paid and whether some part of that is coroprate tax avoidance is moot what isn’t is that yet again 40 million will be paid out of UTD and all for the pleasure of ensuring the Glazers remain in control.
Just while you’re on about holding companies, its kind of queer don’t you think that the Glazers have made a statement saying they remain in full control of UTD after having paid off the PIK debt, only they didn’t actually say they fully owned the new Denver based holding company that ultimately owns UTD, strange one that though I guess you’ll offer a reason for that will again stretch credulity in your efforts to win this debate.
United do not make a profit pure and simple, turnover is up but as someone once said, turnover vanity, profit sanity, funny how gill always talks about profits (ebit) or operating profit or revenue streams and none it says how much did we make!!!
Hmmm, just actually read that bollocks on the human rights links, ok they want them to abolish the death penalty, has anyone asked the United States, I agree with an end to flogging but it doesnt actually say they still carry that out rather its still on their legislation (so is the death penalty for treason in the UK) I guess we should completley ignore the US agian in its use of rendition and extreme interrogation techniques which only ended when Obama came to power or the fact that China has a far worse record than this and yet I bet you have chinese made goods in your house or on your person, you pays your money and you take your choices, talk about double fucking standards.
As for the Glazer business men to qatari investor comparison, isnt oft said by Fergis and Gill that the Glazers leave them alone to run the club showing the Glazers to the same thing you accuse the Glazers of.
Wakey, although I don’t agree with a lot you say, your perseverance has to be applauded.
MANsuyUNITED – Condolences about your nan, but to be fair to andymufc, the pontificating of your first post is the thing bluemoon wet-dreams are made of. Think about it, my dad like Andy’s has been attending matches since the 60′s – he’s been there for Benfica, Barcelona and Rome and gone to Wembley more times than I can remember. Now the idea of an American, who’s been supporting us for 6 years (I think you said, apologies if I’m wrong) questioning his attitude towards the club because he doesn’t but replica shirts, would probably cause him to piss his sides laughing. In Andy’s case you just pissed him off.
@Charlton’s Comb-over
Understand that he is mad, I guess being mad excuses all sorts of behavior and ignorance? I have been a fan for 6 years because I haven’t had a chance to know about United for longer. Bluemoon wet dreams are made of fans who are extremely passionate about Manchester United from all over the world? I think bluemooners would envy that, if anything. I’m dumbfounded by your words. It’s not about the replica shirts, as I mentioned, its about the emotional/human element to football. United offers that and no one can deny how this club makes us feel. Each of us has a personal relationship with this club.
There are new perspectives developing everyday. My posts were aimed at expressing my desire to see the fans unite in support of the club. Not bash everything about it because they don’t see eye to eye with the owner’s business methods.
@ mattbw7 It’s mansUyunited. Cmon, bud.
I was referencing your post to inject another point of view about the Glazers’ business model which relates to the nature of this thread.
Oh, and Charlton, thanks about nan.
@ mattbw7 None of the last 5 years have been good for the club? I’m having trouble believing you just wrote that.
@ mattbw7 None of the last 5 years have been good for the club? I’m having trouble believing you just wrote that. Care to explain?
MANsuyUNITED – am typing this quick so apologies in advance for any mistakes. As I think Mattbw said in an earlier post unity between the fans is a nice thought, but in reality it won’t happen fully. Take for instance this website, on here I find more pro-Glazer stuff than I’d ever hear in the pub, or at the match. Now, I’m no fan of the Glazers primarily because of how they affect me: since they’ve taken over I’m £400 out of pocket evry season and due to such price hikes now a lot of my mates/family have sacked off their STs making my match-day experience less enjoyable to a certain extent. Whereas, someone who doesn’t have a ST and maybe goes to a couple of games a year isn’t as affected and looks purely at the Glazers from a business p.o.v. might not be as bothered by their ownership.
Anyway despite all this, let’s hope we get a win tonight.
MANsuyUNITED
Seeing as the discussion revolves around the finance side of the club, then none of the last 5 years have been good for the club, if you want to widen the discussion just remember 80 to 90% of the squad that won those trophies was in place before the gimps turned up.
Well said Matt. Fight your corner mate.
@ Charlton’s
Regardless of what will ever happen, I aim to fight for it — that is what our great club is about, in my humble opinion.
@ mattbw7
I think what has been poor in the last 5 years has been the fans’ evaluation of the economic health. Do you really intend to ignore the newly forming global partnerships, record breaking sponsorships and dramatic breaks into foreign markets? Or did I just need to remind you? I am not a numbers man but I have read enough on the club’s site, this site and many other fansites/blogs to be convinced that we are headed in the right direction.
The Glazers repeatedly state they are here for the long haul. They repeatedly say the club is not for sale. If all the cared about was profit, they’d pocket the billions from Qatar and end this disastrous sentiment aimed at them not only as business professionals, but human beings.
I personally believe this dissatisfaction with the owners to be a reflection of the discontent Mancunians feel about how the changing policies are affecting them personally. They may not be able to go to games where as once they could attend every match. As a foreign fan who has watched EVERY match on a television screen or computer monitor, I’d say get over yourselves. This club is bigger than Manchester. This club is a message to the world.
There are two sides to every story. My problem is that I’ve heard the Mancunians side long and well. I’ve sat and listened and watched and reflected for years. And honestly, I’m sick of it. Manchester United is owned by the Glazers. Does SAF or the players engineer the UNICEF initiatives? Did they fly over the miners from Chile? Are they the ones concerned with the club’s image on a daily basis? No, they keep their heads down and play football. Long may that continue.
David Gill, love him or hate him, has done a fantastic job in my personal opinion. Who brought him in? You say 80 to 90% of the squad was already in place before the ‘gimps’ showed up. Are they doing anything to destroy that? Look at the squad on the pitch today. How good was Smalling? How much potential did Nani show? By far our best threat offensively, despite being average by his own standards.
Where is your faith in SAF? Has he EVER complained about not getting who he has wanted? This is madness. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glazer_ownership_of_Manchester_Unite d Did the Glazers decide to put Man Utd on the public market? Are the Glazers to blame for no one else stepping up and buying this club? The cow always looks better. All you have to do is look at Liverpool, look at Citeh, even look at Chelsea, hell look at Arsenal. The premiership is changing. Change with it.
I want to follow up this post by expressing my profound admiration for the supporters in Manchester who have made the club what it is today. Without you, this club would never have reached me. Without you, there would be no Manchester United. My point is simple though, the world is becoming a very small place. What once was ‘yours’ is now ‘ours’. Why can’t we just accept that and cheer for our club together?
MANsuyUNITED
You are beginning to sound like an apologist for the Glazers and to be quite frank you are plainly ignoring facts right there in front of you, there is little point in discussing record breaking sponsorship deals that are being used to paper over the parlous finances of the club.
I’d like to see where you get the idea that most forums/fanzines are in favour of the gimps, please take the time to read them all.
You dismissal of Mancunians getting upset because they can no longer attend games is pathetic, the club may belong to the world but isnt Manchester part of the world, is it right that people who have attended games for 10, 20, 30, 40 years are feeling disenfranchised, shouldnt the club respect those fans as it is they and generations before them that helped build this club into what it is, lets not forget the commercial revolution came in the mid nineties and I think we’ve been around a little longer than that.
Your postings do prove one thing, fan unity is as far off as its ever been.
@mattbw7
Perhaps you are right. But that’s the problem, the Glazers need be apologized for in your eyes. Who have they wronged? What have they ruined? Feelings of being disenfranchised is the price the club must pay to compete at the highest level. Which would you prefer? The band will march on, with or without you.
Yes, my posts do prove fan unity is as far off as it has ever been. That was my intention. Half the fans are openly HATING the owners of their own club. I never said a fansite was in support of th Glazers, simply that I am well versed in their rhetoric. In order to unite, there must be a moment of clarity in which people realize what they are doing and why. I am aiming to provide that. You throw the term gimps around so brazenly, this insensitivity is maddening.
Let me fall the villain, I could care less. I dismiss that notion of Mancunians not being able to attend games because I (and many like me) am and have been dismissed for simply not being from Manchester. THAT is pathetic. I am glad we agree though, this club is terribly divided amongst itself.
Why can’t we let go of the hate and unite? What have I said that is so terrible? The club is changing. The league is changing. The players are changing. This is life. The best results are never achieved by clinging to the past but using it as a tool for embracing the future.
I’m so glad we have both exposed this gap together. There is no need to hurl insults. You have repeatedly misquoted my posts and my intentions throughout this thread. I have not called your pathetic or that no one cares where you are from. You failed repeatedly to even spell my name correctly. I did not cause the commercial revolution of the mid 90s. I did not cause the club to go public. I very much appreciate the dedication that Mancunians have put into the club in order to make it what it is. Much the way I appreciate the veterans of my great country for laying the foundation for its future. Does that mean still that I must harbor a hatred for Germans? Times change, we must change with them.
Why must blame be placed and hatred be employed? That is not what this club stands for. You do not have to be from Manchester to understand that. Each man is help accountable for their actions, yes, but hate is not the method that should be employed. Hate is blind and brainless. Hate is evil. LUHG is the motto. I can’t accept that any longer. I hope we continue our discussions because without open debate, no unison will ever be achieved.
I hope you see that no matter how much you disagree with my opinions, I offer them so readily because I AM truly passionate about Manchester United. You can cast supporters like myself out and call us names or you can embrace us, teach us and show us a better way. Otherwise, the great divide will continue on.
Maybe we shouldn’t be focused on “hating Glazer’s” but we should be bothered about high ticket prices and the poor financials.
I personally don’t necessarily want the Glazer’s out. If they could just sort out the club’s finances and lower ticket prices then I’d be quite happy. I wish the Green and Gold campaign was less about the owners and more about the actual issues. Does that make sense?
As Eric Cantona said: “it’s a game for the working class and it’s not rich people’s children who will be the football players of tomorrow but the working class.” I’m paraphrasing that from the ESPN interview he did recently which was posted on this site earlier.
And before anyone starts quoting “market pricing” and “supply and demand” at me don’t forget the average ticket price of a game in the Bundesliga is about £17 when converted from Euros. It’s also much cheaper to attend Barcelona and Real Madrid games.
MANsuyUNITED The band will march on, with or without you.
Thanks for that sentiment, that you would actually direct that at a fan shows that you have no idea of what it means to be a fan of this great club, the reverse is actually true in that I will be taking my seat in the stretford end long after the glazers are gone and you can take that comment and shove it where the sun dont shine
Oh and while Im on a rant ive never denigrated overseas fans but I do despise people who dont take a proper reading of the events and consequences of the current situation, rather they swallow whole the the notion of increased commercial sponsorship even though that still falls short of us actually making a profit and all the while we remain £500 in debt shelling out 40 mill a year in interest and charges
MANsuyUNITED – you’re proving my earlier point. From the comfort of your armchair the Glazers don’t affect you, they affect fans like me and Mattbw who have season tickets and actually go to games. You’re probably never going to feel the way we do about them as we do and you can’t expect us to think they’re great when we’ve seen first hand how they’ve affected the club e.g the deterioration in atmosphere at the ground is one thing you might not have noticed in your 6 years of TV viewing. Please don’t expect fans, local or not, who are directly affected to the Glazers to listen to people like you lecturing us from thousands of miles away – like I said yesterday, I find your spirited, altough hyperbolic, posts amusing; other people probably just find them arrogant in the extreme.
You are both proving my point that fans in Manchester give absolutely no credence to the opinions of the fans outside Manchester. In a few years time, you may understand where your views are coming from. Some Mancunians, and even those from afar, believe that the Glazers are ruining the club. What they are failing to realize is that this is the global climate that has taken over football, and life in general. The Glazers are simply businessmen who believe in the value of the club. They are simply an element of this changing world. If you cannot cope with the change in this world, so be it. All this talk for a takeover bid, do any of you care where that money will come from? Some yes, as often expressed in this thread. Others, no. They just want the ‘gimps’ out. Why? Because they borrowed against the club and have heaped the stress of more debt on top of it. That is true. They have raised ticket prices in order to increase revenues. Have you given up your seat? No.
Sir Alex claims to have no problems with access to funds. Sir Alex has never once expressed any discontent with the management. He did say that the fans have a right to protest, yes. So does the government, do they support Manchester United? So does the FA, and we all know how they treat the club. Why do you feel your opinion more valid than Sir Alex? My words may be seen as arrogant by some, perhaps. But I feel many others will see the arrogance of you thinking that you know what’s best for Manchester United, more so than Sir Alex Ferguson.
I am, and have been saying, that these protests are only dividing the club and not aiding its success. Something you noted when you referenced the match day atmosphere. Who fills the Stretford end? Who decides how often and at what level to sing? Who holds up Green and Gold for our players to look at during matches. Who fuels the doubt which gives fuel to the scumbag agents like that of Rooney’s? Who is seeking to overthrow the hierarchy of the club?
When there was talk of Manchester United fans from Manchester coming together and putting together a bid to purchase Manchester United, my heart was overjoyed. I DO respect the role Manchester United fans from Manchester have played in making this club what it is. I DO NOT respect the role Manchester United fans from Manchester are playing in attempting to bring it down.
My personal opinion, and I DO NOT speak for all foreigners, is that we ALL need to rally behind United. We ALL need to sing at the top of our lungs and sport our kits proudly, new or old. We ALL support this club now. Whether it be from my ‘armchair’ or from your seat in Stretford End. Look at the division amongst us. Look at the hatred. Look at the ignorance. This is all sullying the great image and sentiment of OUR great club. I started out saying that I was sick of reading posts about hating the Glazers. I still feel that way.
I DO NOT support every method they have used or the lack of sensitivity they have shown to Mancunians in their ownership. I do, however, see only one way to do what we can as supporters, as fans, as addicts, as lovers, etc of this great club. And that is to Unite behind them and show the rest of the world that they will never stop Manchester United.
I have been saying that I think this G&G campaign has run its course and is now doing little to change anything. It is only dividing the club and creating a more bitter atmosphere than one might expect on a Blue Moon forum. I DO NOT support United so that I may HATE anyone or anything. I support United because it shows that through dedication, a strong will and desire, and a commitment to fair play that there is very little limit to what the human spirit can accomplish.
I just want to open this blog and feel good about my club again. The Glazers, by all accounts, are not going anywhere. The future of this club, I would dare say the sport in general, is not guaranteed. This club does not have a God-given right to exist. We must fight to make it so. I am just personally sick of hearing Manchester United fans turn on each other and their club. No one is going to run this club the way you want it run except for yourself. But since you’re not qualified, let’s just trust in Sir Alex Ferguson. When he tells us it’s time to sell, I will be the first one with a Glazers Get Out sign in my hand, thrusting it as high into the sky as I can.
Until then, I will continue to love United and trust in SAF. I can only hope you all will do the same. I apologize to any Mancunians I have offended throughout the course of my arguments. I suggest you try to understand my sentiment and focus less on blanket statements.
LU.
@ Nobby
Now we’re talking. Great post! I have NEVER once said we should not be a bit disgruntled about the inflated ticket or kit prices. I am simply hoping to have a word with those who think resorting to hate and waging war against their own club will bring about its long term success.
Keep fighting Matt. These people come out of the word work, every now and again, with their big words and 20 paragraphs. They let on, they don’t support the glazers, but their posts prove otherwise. Lets just cut the facade and nail our colors to the mast, eh? I’ve give the Glazers the benefit of the doubt, more so, than some on here have, let me tell you. It’s simple as this, I ask every fan on here, do you think United need strengthening in certain areas of the team? I think we do and If the Glazers want respect from the fans, then they need to give SAF serious money in the summer, to get the player/players, we most certainly need.
@ willie
While my name is new to you, I have been on this site for a long time. I have preferred to sit back and soak in the opinions of fans who have been here long before I have. But I assure you, you can no conclude that statement with ‘and will be here long after you are gone’.
I have actually really respected your opinions over the years (and matt’s as well to be honest) but just because I articulate my opinions at length should do nothing to diminish the validity of my statements. If anything, the opposite.
My posts have not proved that I support the Glazers, rather that I have not seen a reason to ever hate them. Nor do I approve of such behavior as it divides our great club. In you encouragement to mattbw, you are reiterating my points: I would rather choose to give the Glazers the benefit of the doubt until SAF does not have the funds to do what he needs. You just agreed with my posts entirely. You simply do not agree with who I am or how I express my opinion.
As I have said and will continue to say, I trust in SAF. When he cannot buy whom he wants, then I will hop on the train. But so far, he has gotten every single player he has wanted — read his direct quotations.
I didn’t mean you directly, but in general. Everyone pretty much, won’t be budged on their opinions of the Glazers. I don’t hate them. I don’t know them personally, to hate them. The glazer debate, is an emotive issue on here, but all opinions are more than welcome. I just feel It’s like banging our heads against the wall at times. You say SAF can buy who he wants? This summer, more than any, will prove if you’re right, or not. For whats It’s worth, I hope you’re spot on.
Well, I actually said SAF has said he can buy who he wants. I personally have no knowledge of what goes on behind the scenes. But SAF has never let us down or given us a reason not to trust him. That’s one of my main frustrations. We can bash our heads against the wall all day but it won’t get us anywhere. We need to just trust SAF.
I sure hope he reinforces as well this Summer. It’s just hard to know what the gaffer wants to do. He will not want to disrupt the stability of the squad with so many young players. But we as fans are right to be a bit concerned by the performances this season. Far be it for me to know who’s to go and who’s to stay, but I’m sure SAF will make the right calls.
I share the optimism. I’m actually very curious to hear the Glazers’ statement this week with the release of the financial figures. That said, I don’t think it will matter what they say to some; they will continue to have their detractors.
As this is my first thread on the site, I am grateful to all who were willing to engage me — friendly or not. It’s so important that we have open dialogue and I am such a fan of this site!
LU.
MANsuyUNITED – I am just trying to get you to understand why people like myself and mattbw have a differing opinion to you and surely you can understand that a match going fan will have more of a problem with the Glazers than a fan who follows them on the telly. You don’t have that much of a reason to hate them, we do.
I don’t think “my opinion” is more valued than SAF and I’ve never stated that. Also, you, like me, have no clue what SAF is thinking or what his true feelings are – we can only speculate. Maybe he is happy, maybe he’s just protecting the club and his own position within it. We may never know the truth either.
G&G has very little bearing on the detrioration in atmosphere at the ground. 30,000 plus ST holders not renewing their tickets has. The campaign was good while it lasted, but it’s been over since the end of last season. In all honesty, you will find miles more people arguing about it on here than you ever would at the match.
MANsuyUNITED
Your logic is very twisted, you clearly have no idea what being a fan of this great club is, you read a bit more history and understand what is going on here, my 16 year old daughter who now attends with me has more idea than you because she takes the time to understand the pro’s and cons of the argument, whereas you seem to think the Glazers have been wonderful for this club. You pap on about how SAF says he has money to spend but clearly not enough to buy the kind of player he wants, he talks of value in the transfer market when he’s never shown a concern for that in the past. He identifies a player and asks the club to get them, thats why we paid 28m for Veron and it didnt work, or how about the 30m we chucked at Spurs for Berbatov, seriously if its value you’re after it aint in some one who was already 28 when we got him. Are you really trying to suggest there hasnt been a single midfielder that we coudnt have signed that would have improved the team had we been prepared to pay the money, we could have ya ya toure before city where even sniffing, Adam Johnson even had the tour of Old Trafford and we dicked about with the fee.
As I’ve said before I have no problem with wherever our fans are located but I do have a problem with pricks who think the Glazers are good for UTD, who think UTD fans are to blame for the lack of atmosphere and not the fact that loads have stopped attending and replaced by people to whom singing seems anethema.
If you want people to respect you that shut up about accepting the Glazers, you know what I have voted in every election since I was entitled to and probably moaned and argued with the politicians local and national, why because my vote entitles me to that voice just like my ST or merely the fact I just support UTD entitles me to shout out when something is wrong but you, you just mock us because we hate the Glazers but pay more for the ST to help the debt, you shallow person get over yourself, Im afraid Im going to have to invoke the old adage that there are fans and supporters, I my friend am a supporter you are just a fan and when you actually come up with an argument that makes sense I may not be so vitriolic in my responses, it almost seems to me you’re writing this on a laptop sat on Gills knee in his office
Mattbw7 – very funny last line, I dread to think what’ll happen when Wakey finds out someone else is keeping Gill’s knees warm though…
Wakeys prob grown pubes and has been discarded
I am basing my logic in trust for SAF. I am not openly supporting the Glazers, just providing some counter arguments. I have noted several of their flaws and problems as owners. You guys are telling me that just because I refuse to hate my clubs owners that I am sitting deaf, dumb and blind — a puppet on their knee. It’s sad, to me personally, that you fail to see my love for United and trust in the club’s history. You think that you are the only ones who can possible understand anything about United and you’re just plain wrong.
One thing’s for sure, I will Never Say Die. All I am promoting is trust in our manager at the expense of hate, discontent and warmongering. You think I’m promoting the Glazers’ business model because you are directing the same ignorance at me you throw so blindly at them. I do not know SAF’s mind, as I’ve said. But I do know what he has said time and time and time and time again to the media. How many times has he use the phrase ‘absolute rubbish’ until you realize many of these claims are ‘absolute rubbish’?
I will Never Say Die. I will fight for my club to rid it of misplaced hate and fear. As willierednut said, it’s looking clearer every day that we need to shuffling in the off-season. Let’s wait and see if the manager chooses that. Then, let’s wait and see if he’s got he funds. He’s never in the past talked about value in the market because never in the past have players cost $80m! As he says, the money being thrown around in these markets is ridiculous and he will not have Manchester United held hostage. Start paying less attention to what I say and more to what SAF says.
I will Never Say Die. Think I know nothing of this club? You MUST be the only one who can know anything about the club. You have the privilege to attend Manchester United games. If I lived in Manchester I’d be at every single game I’d the opportunity to go to. But I can’t be. So I’m less a fan? No, I’m a fan of a different variety. There are millions of us out there. I will not be the last. You can try and put a knife between the bond I share with the club but I tell you, it won’t happen. I admit there are many things in the club’s history that I am still ignorant of. I read and talk to everyone I can in trying to dispel that ignorance. I have read each and every one of your comments for years. I have heard you speak your minds. I know what you true Manchester United fans think, at least a small but dedicated group of you. I respect that bond you share completely. I simply must promote my values as I see yours to be as ‘twisted’ as you view mine. And I won’t stop. I’ll type and type and type til you realize that every word that comes out is founded in love for United. I will Never Say Die.
Trust in SAF. LU.
No MansayUTD I sure as hell dont think Im the only one that understands UTDs history but my opinion is you don’t.
Mansuyunited wrote
Then, let’s wait and see if he’s got he funds. He’s never in the past talked about value in the market because never in the past have players cost $80m!
80m is relative, we are still the club that has broken the british transfer record nore than any other club, I think when you see unproven players such as Carroll move for 35 mill and torres (what has he won) go for 50 mill then I cnat see your point.
Listen more to SAF and less to me. You can’t even muster up the capacity to spell my name correctly. Why should I trust in your opinions?
Look I think you guys here have taken parts of this argument too much to heart. I don’t class fans of United who can attend matches and those who can’t differently, for if I did then I would be rubbishing the dreams of people growing up around the world who dream of one day playing for United or indeed are currently playing for United.
But I hasten to add that it is different for fans who turn up for the matches the issues affecting United are much more in your face than sat at home on the couch. When it costs an arm and a leg to go see United play and for them to have a bad game or under-perform you can’t help but think as you’re stood in the terraces if United weren’t playing £41 million a year in interest payments “is there a chance that we could have bought say Schneijder in to replace Ronaldo?” or “could we have stumped up the stupid amount of money that judas Tevez wanted?” And you have to remember that Matchday revenue is slightly higher than media revenue but there’s a lot fewer of us who pay to go watch a match than watch it on TV.
I’d like to reiterate at this point that being able to go to a match doesn’t make you any more of a fan than someone who lives on the opposite side of the world, they can be just as knowledgeable and just as passionate.
I myself can’t afford a season ticket and so I have to pick up a ticket when and where I can. (Which meant one instance this season paying to attend that diabolical game we had against Wolves at OT).
So then, I think the Green and Gold protest will disappear if:
1. At the end of this financial year in April the report will show a significant drop in the levels of debt at the club.
2. During this summer we have 2 or at most 3 marquee signings.
3. A drop in ticket prices. (I wish!)
Now I think it’s entirely possible that we could see 1. and 2. this year. And I’d just like to point out (again) that I think the Green and Gold protest is really important. But I see the G&G protest as less of a “Glazer’s Out” and more of a “Get you’re s**t in order now”.
“Manchester is my heaven.”
@Charlton’s Comb-over and @mattbw7: Would you be happy if the Glazer’s sorted their stuff out. Or is that it for you and you want them out no matter what?
@willierednut I’m with you, sat on the fence. Waiting to see what happens… haha!
@MANsuyUNITED I just think somewhere along the line we lost focus of what we all wanted.
Does everyone think we lost focus on what we wanted, that “Glazer’s out” was too simplistic?
(If you’re interested have a look at FC St. Pauli for how a club’s relationship with its fans should be.)
Nobby you are my glimmer of hope! I have taken the discussion this far in the hopes that someone would finally step in and find a middle ground. My problem is that I have been hearing again and again and again about how much people hate the Glazers and how they must get out. I felt the need to play devil’s advocate and expose the hatred and ignorance that is filling the hearts of the club’s great supporters.
I agree with your comments almost entirely. I am so glad you posted, whether or not I had agreed. It shows the desire to resolve this conflict and unite us. That, I hope that time will show, is all that I am fighting for. The Glazers, in my humble opinion, do need to get their shit together and the G&G campaign has done a marvelous job to express the discontent of the supporters. My concerns have been the mutiny it has turned into. I believe that it has lost its focus in the eyes of many fans and I sought to show them the arrogance in their ways. I had to be a bit arrogant myself to achieve that. I apologize to all fans for that. But Nobby, you are my hero! Thank you for injecting the much needed rationalism into this debate. (Also, I will check out FC St. Pauli, thank you for attempting to educate me.)
@ mattbw7 I am proud to share our great club with you. You and your familiy have played, personally from what I can gather, an important role to the success of Manchester United. I am proud of your Never Say Die attitude and willingness to engage me. I am proud that we both call this club our own. I hope you look back at me with the same feelings, because I truly only want what’s best for Manchester United.
LU.
@ Nobby It was only Wikipedia, but what a fascinating club. The only major difference I see is their focus on social issues where as Man Utds typically remains on the pitch. That is no slight to them, however, as there are many different interpretations of the role of sports in society. I wouldn’t now call myself a ‘Kult’ fan but will definitely begin keeping up with them, if only every couple of months.
It was also so nice to read Owen Hargreaves name in the article and it being referenced to a goal he scored which helped knock them out of a cup. Me oh my how I wish I could read that on the United website every so often…
Still rooting for you Hargreaves!
@MANsuyUNITED
Here this go some way to explain what I mean and is more helpful than Wikipedia:
http://inbedwithmaradona.com/fan-power-and-the-brown-revolution/
Just to also to mention that after their promotion they campaigned to make sure the club didn’t become to commercialised and hike up ticket prices.
I know that with a much larger club like Manchester United things become much more restrictive in terms of ticket prices and commercialisation. And I’m not against commercialisation because that’s something that’s helped sustain United’s success over the past two decades but things aren’t balanced anymore in favour of the fans as it should.
Finally I can’t believe it was that terrible Wolves match last year, Hargreaves is probably one of my favourite United players and I was so happy to see him playing in his first match back…. for all of 5 minutes. I was absolutely gutted.
@Everyone mentioning new signings this summer.
I know this is possibly a long shot, but bare with me:
- Fergie hasn’t bought big over the last few seasons “because of the over valued market for players” (paraphrased).
- UEFA financial fair play rules come in for the 2012 and 2013 financial years.
- Teams will have to “balance the books” with new signings.
- Therefore this should create a situation where all player prices are artificially lowered because of all clubs having to reach this financial balancing act. (Which is the idea of the UEFA rules)
- A number of relatively cheaper marquee signings abound?
The team looks like it needs some gaps plugging and the money should be there in summer to back up Fergie if this is the case. And for all the people who talk about Glazer’s not investing the money into new players you have to remember that they need United to continue to be successful on pitch. Even a relatively small drop in form could cause revenue to drop by £30-40 million. So if Ferguson goes to them and tell them he needs the money he’ll get it.
@ Nobby
Thanks for link, truly a fascinated story/club.
Another great couple of posts. People seem to forget how tied to United’s success on the pitch the Glazers are. Those revenues drop or God forbid we pull a Poo, they’re in crisis. I realize a lot of the angst comes from the debt that has been created, the strain to succeed on the pitch and the reliance of a good year, every year in order to maintain our club. The Glazers perhaps took that for granted when buying the club. But really, it just reiterates their trust in SAF — even if it is a bit ugly.
While I am also upset about the amount of strain they’ve placed him under, a multi-billionaire owner is not necessarily the solution. They ARE the owners of this club and forcing the club’s revenues to drop may not necessarily force them to sell. It may just marginalize our club and poison our fanbase. While some argue that the fanbase has already been poisoned, I again cite our success on the pitch. We DO still have that. They have proven to be shrewd, capable businessmen and they have opened the floodgates towards long term revenue globally, which will ensure this club’s future.
I understand that they do not affect me as personally as they affect others, Mancunians mostly. But I don’t see how pouring all of our money into overseas sweatshops or knock off jerseys will help. We don’t HAVE TO buy a jersey, or attend a match. But I personally feel that you’re not so much tinkering with the Glazers’ finances but that of Manchester United. I don’t want to see our club fall. There are only so many options to build us up, I simply offered one that I thought may be best. See this thing out. That is, of course, unless SAF CAN’T buy whom he wants. But until now, he has not complained once about the owners, not even hinted at it. He’s done the opposite.
YorYor I also thought some of your comments to be fantastic, thanks for pitching in! Not because you were on my side, because you didn’t explicitly agree with me. I just want to say I appreciate your spirit and style of enthusiasm.
Hi Nobby
I dont hate the Glazers no matter what and I dont deny them the right to make a profit however all of thier actions have had little benefit for UTD and thier total lack of communication is stunning given that they originally said they would keep the fans informed on the direction of the club.
At the moment it wouldnt concern me one jot if we did a leeds because I truly believe the fanbase is loyal enough that this great club would continue to be a major force and it may be the only way we get any semblance of fan ownership.
All in all I just dont get MANsuyUNITEDS arguments, it sounds more like Glazer propaganda than anything.
Nobby – Aside from the debt, I don’t like the Glazers because of the contempt they’ve shown the match-going fan. Is it a coincidence that at the end of a season of G&G we had a price freeze for the first time in 5 years? In my opinion, no. Will there ever be a reduction in ticket prices – I very much doubt it. However, I doubt anyone is so naive that they think a fairy-sheik mother is going to swoop in and solve all our gripes – who’s to say that a new owner wouldn’t continue with Glazer policies anyway?
I don’t have an issue with how ‘local’ you are. There are fans on here who live all over the place who could be deemed more of a ‘fan’ than my neighbour who has a Utd shirt and will occasionally watch them on the telly. My original points were intended to try and let people who were lecturing us about our support as to why an ST holder will have more of a problem with the Glazers, than a non ST holder. I was also trying to show that for us being a fan is about how much merchandise you buy either, I stand by my point that to the old-timers who’ve been there and done everything with Utd without buying the t-shirt, the suggestion that they should “get over themselves” would cause them to laugh in the face of whoever said it. I just find it amusing that someone who has been to OT once in his life is such an authority on the ground and the atmosphere created by the fans within it.
@Charlton’s Comb-over: You’re totally right about the contempt, it’s pretty sickening really though I too have my doubts that anyone else at the top of the table has it any worse or better than us. That’s probably the only reason I would want them to go to matter what, I just dread the possible alternative.
Also I think that MANsuyUNITED has played the devils advocate here and called us out. Reading this discussion it’s clear we all stand in the middle ground really and I wouldn’t blame any of us for doing this at this very moment in time.
@mattbw7: Hi mattbw7! It’s true a total lack of communication hasn’t helped them at all but maybe they are being silent as it’s probably the most gracious thing they can do right now instead of lying to our faces? Could be worse could be lectured disrespectfully like Liverpool’s previous owners did to them.
@MANsuyUNITED: I don’t think any person posting here is too bothered by the shirt sales, we all know that most of the shirt sales are outside of Manchester anyway. Plus anywhere outside of the UK is probably totally unaffected by the G&G protest.
Some of the things that you have said though are going to be leaving the season ticket holders much more sore about it. And why wouldn’t they? They invest such a lot of money into United every year and are now getting the short end of the stick. It’s not like a service where you can switch provider, you have one club and one club only and I think that’s most galling about how they have been treated.
The idea that you’re just tinkering with the finances is an important point to bring up. And it’s definitely true that you’re hurting United first then Glazer’s second, but I feel pretty sickened myself that anything I buy, ticket or shirt, is just going into the big mystical financial hole left by their take over. I think that if you personally had a problem with giving United money under the Glazer’s stewardship then that’s a personal choice and good for anyone who does it. I don’t judge either side more or less for this.
@Charlton’s Comb-over, mattbw7, MANsuyUNITED
Has anyone read “The Swiss Ramble” blog? It’s quite a good read and it links nicely to what Charlton’s Comb-over said that he doesn’t believe “a fairy-sheik mother is going to swoop in and solve all our gripes”. He’s right, and what’s more have a read of maybe the United, Chelsea and City articles you’ll realise that we’re all boned one way or another when the UEFA rules come in.(Especially City hahaha! Player Wages to Turnover of 109% compared to United lowest in the league of 44%. Made my City-supporting friend sick when I linked him that.)
The Swiss Ramble blog is what actually turned me for ardent Green and Gold supporter to more of an ambivalent one who is more annoyed at the contemptible treatment of fans than anything else.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12578645
Merchandise sales are up 30% overall. The 10% down was just from the club store – this drop was attributed to less home games so far this season.
Well that makes this post was f***ing pointless…
Nobby – I’ll give that website a look, thanks for the info. Wonder if Scott will do a new blog in light of the bbc article and kick the whole debate off again lol
First of all, sorry for the delay in replying. Been really busy the last few days. Still busy but todays work is boring so I will be working on replying in breaks when I get really bored
@mattbw7
I don’t have an agenda against the Qatari’s per say. I am just not deluded enough to believe that the Glazers eat babies and are the ultimate evil and as such any new owner would be better.
And you haven’t provided ANY evidence that shows they are business men with business acumen. All the evidence shows they have investment acumen rather than business acumen. They have ONE business they own and operate and that’s Harrods. This is a new acquisition for them and we have yet to see if they do a good job, however it’s a retail store and while it’s not a simple corner shop retail stores are one of the easier business’s especially one that already has a built in user base. It’s not quite on the same level as running a sports franchise (Which is a complex business that see the core Sports Team that the franchise is built on having to operate in a way that in many ways goes against alot of conventional business practices)
And you say the Glazers are doing exactly what I claim the Qataris do but that’s hardly the case. The Glazers may let the managers run the specific parts that they have expert knowledge in but the overall direction is in their hands and even if they don’t have a direct interaction on the football side like The Sheiks and Abramovich have they will still have a hand in it to ensure the football side is not only in balance with the other parts of the club but that the football side helps with the other aspects that will ultimately help support the football side.
The Qataris on the other hand are investors in the companies they invest in. They have no day to day interaction, infact they have no right to even have that. On certain decisions they will have a right to vote and that vote in some of their investments is powerful due to having significant stakes in the companies they have invested in and they will also have a right to express concerns in the annually AGM. They will also be able to start proceedings to oust the board and put a new one in place if they feel the current board isn’t acting in the interests of the shareholders but they do not have any say in the general day to day decisions or even the long term plans and goals.
On the Human Rights record WHAT exactly has other countries Human Rights records got to do with anything? Are we currently state owned by anyone? No we are not. State ownership is bad enough as the club becomes a symbol of that regime but when it’s a nation that has serious human rights issues (And its more than just refusing to end the death penalty, it’s the things they have the death penalty for and the methods used to carry out the death penalty that are the issue, along with other human rights concerns. I was also against the mooted Chinese takeover that was mentioned last year which was said to have significant state participation in it.
And sure I probably have items where parts in it were made in China but I have nothing that I have bought that was to my knowledge made by the Chinese state.
United as a company DO post a profit. Look at the accounts for Red Football and you will see the clubs profit figure. Also if the club wasn’t making a profit then would the cash reserves really be on the increase EVERY year. Since the Glazers took over the Cash Reserves have gone from 18mill to 158mill. Now sure a chunk of that’s the Ronaldo money but then it’s not like we haven’t spent a good amount of that money (21mill of it last season and 27mill of it this season so that leaves just 32mill of it left. So even if you take the 32mill out the cash reserve has grown by over 100mill since the takeover). Again even Red Football would post a profit IF it wasn’t for the Goodwill non-cash payments. Something even Andy Green (Andersred) admits and he is one of the worst at ignoring everything that’s positive.
EDIT – While writing this the Q2 results have been announced. Cash Reserve is down to 134mill after the club bought 24million of the Bonds back, saving 2mill a year in interest, so about 12mill saved by the time the bonds repaid
@Charlton’s Comb-over
Personally I think the ticket price situation is overplayed when it comes to the Glazeer. It’s not really a United issue or even a purely football issue. Footballs gone mental with the wages and transfer fees and match day revenue is the main income stream for a football club with tickets making up most of these so its essential that clubs maximise this by finding what the market rate is, with the new financial rules that have been talked about for the past 5 years and which come in next season it’s even more vital across all of football.
It seems worse for us as united fans SIMPLY because of the mismanagement of the PLC. If you have a waiting list of double the capacity and that figure rises significantly every season you are doing something wrong from a business pov as you aren’t maximising the revenue. Its only good for the boards ego and the share price (although the share price would increase better with maximising profits imho). The ticket prices were well below the market rate, Liverpool was charging more (and even now the average price for us and Liverpool is about the same) and even if you take the ‘London tax’ into account all the London clubs were charging significantly more.
All the Glazers have done is what any business owner would do and brought the ticket prices in line with the market rate. If the PLC had kept the prices inline better then there would have still been a rise BUT it wouldn’t seem as large.
It should also be noted that a football match is still cheaper to attend than a lot of entertainment in this country. Attend a show or concert and you will on the whole pay a lot more. Infact often you can get the best seats in a football stadium than you can get cheapest seats at a concert or show.
Also we make alot of the price of tickets in the UK and we aren’t the cheapest place for sports tickets in the world but we also aren’t the most expensive (and some of the places cheaper have their tickets subsidised via other methods). Look at the price of a season ticket for any of the American sports. In the NFL the average paid for a season ticket is $608 (~£360) for just EIGHT games. And that’s an average season ticket price for many teams you will pay nearly double for the EIGHT GAMES in the best seats than you will for the best seats in Old Trafford for ten more home games.
We should also take into account that when you compare wages for jobs in the UK we generally get paid more which is why in general things cost more in the UK. When you take this cost of living into account some of the cheaper places aren’t as cheap and places like the US are charging even more than it seems on the face of it.
It would be great in an ideal world if ticket prices could be kept lower to allow anyone who wanted to be able to afford to but then people would still miss out as the stadium can’t realistically be increased (the cost of increasing the size of south stand would be hard to recoup with lower ticket prices as the railway and the houses behind are said to push the cost of doing this well over the 100mill mark.
@MANsuyUNITED
“Let me fall the villain, I could care less.” COULDN’T not could. If you could care less that means you actually care a bit. You see it said as Could Care less all the time on US TV and it really bugs me as it makes no sense
@Nobby
The problem is Nobby how do you lower the ticket prices. Barca and Real have their ticket prices subsidised by the ‘Fan Ownership’ scheme in place that sees them pay a yearly membership fee which puts the REAL season ticket prices more in line with the UK. Then Adjust it to the cost of living and it will be almost identical (as equivalent wages in Spain are lower than the uk). We should also remember that Real and Barca get the majority of the TV money in Spain so get alot more than we do
In Germany the Fan Ownership method they use across the board see’s the dividends that fan’s 51% is used to subsidise the ticket prices. And in Germany they struggle to compete financially.
Its not even as if the Financial Fair Play rules help as not only does it put greater emphasis on maximising ticket revenue BUT most importantly it only applies to Europe. For ticket prices to have any chance of falling there needs to be Financial rules and ideally wage and transfer caps world wide otherwise top clubs will keep having to spend big on wages and transfers which means increasing revenues not decreasing them. Only way I can see it being viable is if we are able to break away from the collective tv rights deal which would allow us to double our TV income
@willierednut
You are right you weren’t directing it at MANsuyUNITED but it was a dig at me instead wasn’t it.
Anyway I know compared to alot of people posting here I seem like I’m a fan of the Glazers but i’m neither pro or anti Glazer. I can just separate my heart from my head and look at the situation from a logical pov that takes into account the bigger picture where things aren’t as Black and White as the anti-Glazer crowd like to believe (and which MUST publish a bunch of one sided information with no context to help build on that view)
And I think everyone agrees that the club needs reinforcing but the question is where and with who. Some people here seem to think we should be spending silly money on fairly average players rather than finding the right player who wants to play for us in the right position for what’s a realistic fee based on their current ability and potential. I believe the money is there to buy the players, having all the money in the Bank after all makes little sense unless its there to be spent on players if the right ones come up, otherwise you would see more of it spent on buying back some of the bonds like we saw in this quarter’s results. The Glazers imho know there’s some key players that need replaced and SAF has been told he can spend if he finds the right player but just yet due to the inflated fees SAF hasn’t found the players he wants (and a few he was after wanted to go elsewhere) and doesn’t want to spend silly money on average players when that money can be saved and used when the right player does become available.
List any player you think United should buy and there will be some agreeing others who won’t for a variety of reasons and SAF will be the same. Just because you think Player A should be bought doesn’t mean he does, and personally I think SAF’s opinion on who to buy is better than the fans due to his experience and his knowledge of the club and his players. Our views on players to buy is very much Fantasy Football/Football Manager as we don’t have all the factors to take into account.
@mattbw7
Veron was one of the best players in the world at the time, 28mill was a bargin. He didn’t cut it in England sadly. Now 28mill gets you an Average player who doesn’t really add to the team.
And we threw money away on Berba simply because it got to the point where spurs had us over the barrel and it had gone too far and we had to pay for him. The Sun screwed us with their badly researched story that claimed a fan site was an official site and saw spurs bump the £24mill fee that was pretty much agreed upto 28mill and then city got the last day money boost which pushed it up further.,
On Toure do you not think it was Yaya greed that got in the way more? The clubs always been strict with its wage cap and yaya would have blown the roof off it, which would have seen some players have their wage clauses triggered and others looking to renew their contracts ask for much more.
@Nobby
If we weren’t paying the interest you could almost guarantee that it wouldn’t be available for players as the Glazers would almost certainly be taking the dividends they are entitled to. The only way it would be available would be if the Glazers did what Abramovich does and take his dividends still but OK the club to go massively into their overdraft.
Its a major problem in the MUST/Anti Glazer argument as they assume the interest is money that would remain in the club without the interest when in effect the interest is just the Dividend payment to the investors that was always being paid and would still be paid. The only difference is the interest payments are a set amount where as Dividends would change in value depending on results so were lower in amount that the PLC paid but only because profit levels were lower
And I’m not sure Schneijder would have ever been on our shopping list. Real were demanding over 20mill for most of the transfer window which for a player who failed to really make an impact in Spain is too high to be realistic. Inter actually had an offer for more than teh 12mill they paid rejected earlier in the window but Real got desperate and came back to the table. It seems to be the same with VdV and spurs, while there is no public confirmation of a bid being made by spurs Real were saying 20mill+ early on when we were being linked and all I can assume is Spurs made an enquiry as Spurs seem to be the only club offered the last minute 7mill deal.
“Teams will have to “balance the books” with new signings.”
Problem is next season it isn’t being fully implemented so balancing the books isn’t as important just yet. It could make the buying clubs have to pay more, just as Chelsea were forced to for Torres. Also clubs will see it as a quick way of balancing books at this point. I suspect we won’t see major impact from it for a few seasons
@mattbw7
” thier total lack of communication is stunning given that they originally said they would keep the fans informed on the direction of the club.”
You can blame that on MUST on the whole. Their initial campaign was admirable BUT as soon as the Glazers were successful their duty as a mouthpiece for the fans was to give them chance. They stayed on the offensive however without anything to back up their claims and kept twisting anything the Glazers did say. They needed to be dealing in facts to fight for the fans rather than conjecture and borderline lies that they have been as its just alienated them from the Glazers and inturn caused the Glazers and the Fan base to become alienated.
Its not just MUST that have this issue, alot of supporters groups seem to be run by the same idiots that run many of the trade unions who simple have no tact. They claim to be representing others interests but just go out of their way to wind the other side up so much that it starts a war which then makes the leaders of the groups build up their own sense of self importance.
I have said it once and will say it again as United fans we need to make MUST aware we don’t want these fools representing us and we need a more progressive supporters group to represent us. Even then it will be hard to get the Glazers back to the table now but while MUST is the main mouthpiece then its never going to happen
@Charlton’s Comb-over
If you knew anything about business you would be aware that there is no way the decisions to freeze the ticket prices were made due to G&G. G&G didn’t start until the end of Jan 2010 which just doesn’t give the time to redo a complete business plan and finalise it before season tickets for 10/11 went on sale.
It would have almost certainly been locked in before the G&G started with projections made based on that and the previous years trends and also the trend with the waiting list (People will say a waiting list doesn’t exist but I suspect it still does exist but much smaller. The problem with a waiting list however is its not a firm commitment. When you joined it you circumstances could be different or you may only be interested in certain seats that aren’t available)
@Nobby
“Merchandise sales are up 30% overall. The 10% down was just from the club store – this drop was attributed to less home games so far this season.
Well that makes this post was f***ing pointless…”
And even if some of the 10% is due to the boycott a 30% rise is more than enough for Nike and Others to want a new deal and united to receive even more. As the only money United get from shirt sales is rom the club shop and Nike get the rest and it doesn’t matter if those sales are from the club store or a JJB store in London to them. They may be taking a tiny amount out of the Glazers pocket but the deals structured as it is to account for that
@ Charlton’s
My use of the phrase ‘get over yourselves’ was extremely arrogant. For that I apologize, it was my direct response to being told to ‘get over myself’ for caring about United from far away. I have tried to rectify my arrogance and apologized for it. I did, however, need to stimulate the debate.
@ Nobby
I’m far less concerned with shirt sales than I am the overall sentiment that this campaign has taken. With no figurehead other than some of the truth-benders at MUST, it has turned into all out mutiny which, in my eyes, is so very threatening to United. My posts are full of emotion and that is my focus. Clearly we all agree that this matter is dividing us. I do believe ST holders should be upset. Perhaps my posts will make them more sore about it, and for that I apologize. I do support the idea of the G&G campaign, just not its execution. It needs clear, defined motives with a figurehead to direct its affairs, in my opinion.
We can throw facts and figures around all day until we are blue in the face, and so clearly we have. There is no reason to avoid the debt the Glazers have brought the club. No reason at all. But without a focus for this protest, it is turning into mutiny.
@ wakey
I chose my words correctly. I could care less. I do love this sight, as I have said repeatedly. I do care about our fans/supporters and our club. I care a whole lot. But I COULD care less if it meant my point got across. They are varying distinctions on a similar theme. I couldn’t care less means you don’t give a shit in the least bit. Well I am not out to be a villain, so I could care less.
I really like your point about the ticket prices in all of football, however. I agree strongly with that and have been trying to etch something along those lines. Football is changing and the Glazers are elements of that change. They are working in the market they were given. That does not justify their actions, but it may help put them in perspective for a few people out there. I’ve been trying to keep numbers out of my posts because what I am most upset about is the overall sentiment and hatred which is inadvertently being transferred onto the club.
Great point about everyone on here playing Football Manager with the whole thing. The disgusting thing is, all this doubt surrounding the club makes us look at EVERY SINGLE transfer in world football and say, “Oh, why didn’t we buy him?! WE’RE BROKE!” There is not enough trust in Sir Alex Ferguson. That makes me a strong combination of angry/sad.
@ mattbw7
Addressing me directly and making an effort to understand my arguments would be a great start, mate. I am not pro-Glazer. I am pro-United. You can’t distinguish the two. Many fans can’t. That’s what upsets me.
This is a great thread guys. We all want the same thing, United to succeed. And clearly we care about it a whole lot. I am proud to share this club with you guys. LU.
@wakey Hello thar!
So many talking points! I would like to take some time to answer you. So here goes:
1. I said I would like it if they lowered ticket prices but I never in a million years think that the Glazer’s or anyone else ever would do such a think. It’s just a dream that I wish could happen. Football has gone mad. I know German teams don’t necessarily compete financially but they don’t do too badly. Real and Barca are bad examples I should have thought about that a bit more.
2. UEFA financial fair play rules are not enforced this coming financial year but financial years 2012 and 2013 are to be taken into account.
3. I agree negotiating individual TV rights would increase the amount of money the club would make but I am so vehemently against it. I believe that the Premier League is the best league in the world and it’s fundamental that the TV rights are negotiated as a league not by individual clubs.
4. The fact is that if the debt wasn’t on the club there would still be more money available than with the current situation. If the club had remained a PLC the dividends it would have had to pay out would have been no way near the levels of interest payments.
5. The Sneijders comment was because I like him as a player. He didn’t have a steller two seasons at Real Madrid but he wasn’t that bad. (And recently terribly under-looked for the FIFA Ballon d’Or award this year. Treble winner and world cup finalist.)
6. I think you might have me wrong. I’m not for boycotting the shirt sales. I’m saying that the post was pointless because that 10% drop from the United club store was insignificant if world merchandise sales were up 30% this year.
7. Nike operate the merchandise operation for United and the net profits from the sales are split evenly between Nike and United.
@MANsuyUNITED
Agreed. The Green and Gold campaign needed a clearer figurehead and a better agenda than just “Glazer’s out”.
You mention us lot on here playing football manager. There’s no doubting that the debt hasn’t had some sort of effect on the transfers. And I think also it doesn’t help that this team is possibly the weakest (by United’s standards) that we’ve had for possibly decades. (That’s why if we do win the Premier League this year it should rank right up there with Fergie’s greatest achievements. – It doesn’t help when United is a team in flux as it appears to be right now.)
I believe this is why we look at the transfers and ask questions as to why we haven’t bought some of these players.
@ Nobby
I understand why we ask these questions. I understand completely. What I do not understand are the conclusions that are drawn from self-serving logic. Just because we didn’t buy a certain player does not mean the money wasn’t there. It means, we didn’t buy the player. How are we to know if SAF wanted that player, even on a free? He is the master at squad balance. Let’s leave it to him. Drawing the conclusion that we don’t have the money for the transfers, to quote SAF, is ‘absolute rubbish’. We cannot let fear take over our senses. It must be addressed, yes, but not at the expense of our trust in SAF. He has never once mentioned any dissatisfaction with the amount of money the Glazers have made available to him.
MANsuyUNITED – well, you definitely managed to do that alright!
@MANsuyUNITED
Not really the place for a discussion on the English Language but..
You said “Let me fall the villain, I could care less.”. Unless I’m misreading this you are saying you don’t care if people here want to make out your the villain aka pro Glazer, you just care about the club
So by saying “I could care less” you are saying that just a little bit you do care what people think of you on the site. “Couldn’t Care less” would be the right usuage because you don’t care if people try and portray you as the Villian
A good video about the whole Couln’t/Could Care less issue can be seen at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw
@Nobby
1. They don’t do badly but they also don’t really do great. Only Bayern really have the chance to compete at the top level of Europe and they are helped alot by their legacy helping them and even then they generally make smart buys of players where intrest from other top teams is limited.
2. I know they are taken into account but for 2012/2013/2014 3 year period the rules are alot more relaxed. By the time they are fully in play and the real implications kick in 2012′s figures will mean nothing. Its still going to be a sellers market in the coming summer due to this unless a clubs really in problems (City and Chelsea for example may have to be selling clubs this summer)
4. The PLC was regularry paying between 10-20mill in dividends. For its turnover this was ridicously high. Based on todays
EBITD figure for the last 6 months the yearly
EBITD is in the 121mill range. A dividend of 25% which is a fairly standard rate I believe would see a dividend of around £30mill so even if they scalled them back thats not too far from the Interest payments
7. It depends if we are talking about the Shirt sales or complete merchandise. The Shirt deal pays United nothing other than the agreed fee and for ones sold in the club shop the retailers cut. The additional mechandise operation that Nike help with is split 50/50
RE: Weakest Squad
I’m not sure its that weak. There has been a world cup hangover with some players and a couple who are out of form for some unknown reason but if the teams the weakest its been in a long time I don’t believe we would be at the top of the table.
I think what we are seeing as much as anything is a Premier League thats the most competative league in the world and a league where the teams are getting better and smarter tactically and more clinical when they get a chance.
Otherwise if we say we have one of the weakest squads we have ever had then you would have to accuse the whole league of being weaker which i’m not sure is the case
The worst thing I would say we have been guilty of has been switching off in defence. Something most of our rivals can’t say and with better defensive concentration we would be walking the league at this point
@MANsuyUNITED
The biggest issue with the transfers is the way people forget about bids that it was confirmed we had made but the player choose elsewhere. Benzema and Villa are two players we bid £30mill+ for and had offers accepted but they opted for elsewhere. I suspect Ozil indicated he wanted to goto Real because all the evidence does suggest that SAF met with him/Werder’s Reps at Fulham as you don’t expect SAF to spend time like that unless he is interested.
They also write off signings like Smalling as being cheap buys but in reality its alot of money for players wo are only potential at the time
@ Wakey
I think you are in fact misunderstanding my intention. I do not want to be considered a villain. I care about being considered the villain. But, if I have to be the villain, I could care less about that if I had to. I do care though. That is, if I cared 8/10 about not being a villain, I would be willing to care 4/10 (as opposed to the 0/10 that ‘couldn’t care less’ represents). So yes, I used it correctly within my intentions. Interesting video and while English began in England, it has taken new forms all around the globe. I do believe semantics are important though, in every debate. Without common terms, poor value placement takes place. Not that you did that. You did the opposite and intended to get us on the same page. I hope we are now?
@ Charlton’s
I sincerely hope that you see what I was trying to do and why. These debates must continue until we all find common ground. ‘Those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable,’ to quote JFK — if i may. I guess, I hope you accept my apology and see my true intentions. Sometimes you must take a few steps backward to take a few forward, to quote a bland but true cliche – if I may. (This rhyme is getting obnoxious, haha.)
I just love United. Though my methods may be in question, I am learning more each post from each of you. I am so grateful. I want us all to expose our truest beliefs and feelings about the club so that we all realize what common ground we all really share. Those who have told me that we cannot and will not unite. I say to you, so long as you believe that, you are right. I will just keep hoping you are wiling to rethink that.
@ Wakey
What if, though, these players just preferred to join those clubs? What if money had nothing to do with it? Citeh offered those similar players tons of money and, for obvious reasons, those similar players went elsewhere.
While we believe United is the best club in this world, not everyone else does. I think it is inappropriate to think that money is everything in these equations. As we have seen with Citeh, it is not.
I’m not too worried about the ability to buy players. I’m just worried about some of the players we’ve bought.
And that’s a very fair thing to do. No one can deny that our performances this season have not been up to par with the creative, free-flowing football United typically sets out to showcase.
My issue, and this is not an issue with you personally but with a larger contingent of the fanbase, is that SAF’s buys do not always pan out. That is not the Glazers’ fault. He came to them and said, ‘Hey, there’s this kid Bebe who I’ve never seen play before and he doesn’t even play in a top league, but I want him.’ The Glazers said, ‘Okay Alex, here’s your money.’
They have backed him fully in the transfer market to date. It will be telling what happens in these upcoming markets. But as of now, he has gotten every penny he’s asked for. Even when he makes a buy on a player he’s never seen before! The Glazers clearly trust him to provide success on the pitch as their futures are so deeply tied to it. While they might be doing a some harm to this club, at least they trust in our manager. It’s tough to deny that claim. But I’m sure someone will try…
The question is, does that harm outweigh the reward? Do the ends justify the means? Well this question is for the more philosophical amongst us. And here I will admit my philosophy of United is very different constitutionally than your average Mancunian. However, United as a club are becoming global. That was going to happen regardless. It is not a small time club with small time aspirations. It seeks to be the best in the world. Not the best in Manchester. By being the best in the world, we obviously are the best in Manchester. Long may that be our aim.
MANsuyUNITED – no problem here, let’s hope for a good result and a great match tomorrow. No away ticket for me, so let’s also hope for a good internet connection!
@ Wakey
Serious question of semantics that perhaps you could answer:
Is it HEAR HEAR or HERE HERE?
Because Charlton’s, HEAR HERE!
LU.
Its Hear Hear I believe
Yeah I don’t think anyone would say that the performance of players once they get to United is nothing to do with the Glazer’s. Fergie’s bought some terrible players before and will continue to do so in the future.
Even though the Glazer’s appear to have fully backed him we don’t know how much wrangling there is behind the scenes. Nor do we know whether the idea of spending too much is part of what Sir Alex is thinking about when he looks to buy a player. Like we’ve come to realise it’s all about United doing well to work the finances, so I wonder whether this has any degree of effect on the transfers if any at all!
I really hope Wigan don’t pull one out of the hat tomorrow! It would be just like them to do that. We’ve won the last 12 games and the aggregated scores of those games is 37-4! HAHAHAHA! I’m hoping for United to really get into gear at the Wigan game and kick on. But I’ve been hoping for that all season.
Come on United!
United We Stand, Divided We Fall.
HEAR HEAR Nobbers!
Wakey you as selective with your facts as most are, for your information there is no capitalism in China that is not authorised by the state to say you dont buy anything from china is just bollocks if you have a laptop, ipod tv digi radio clothes its highly likely they where sourced in china, a place where you still get shot if you demonstrate against the government, whether you are aware of it or not. The fact that you deny such is total bollocks, the fact they dont own UTD is totally irrellevant by buying chinese products the taxes the state takes from these companies helps to keep the state going. So in a general argument about human rights you cant just exclude china cos they dont own utd, of course if you dont own anything from china you are a better man than me.
@mattbw7
No capitalism in china? Are you sure about that?
You do realise what capitalism means don’t you? It doesn’t matter if the companies that operate in China need state authorisation, every country is like that. Yes China’s rules to be allowed to operate in the country are alot stricter than alot of others but the companiies operating in China are not all state controlled where the profits go back to the state, they have alot of private owned companies including the likes of MacDonalds operating where the profit goes to the owners/shareolders not the Chinese state.
And I didn’t say I didn’t own anything that parts of it were made in China. I said I try not to knowingly buy items from china (especially from State owned firms)
And China’s Human Right record IS IRRELEVANT because we are having a discussion not on Human Rights BUT on Uniteds ownership. If it was a private individual/company from Qatar then the Human Rights issue wouldn’t be a factor, its only a factor because Qatari Holdings is a state owned company. As such the human rights issues of Qatari would become a United issue because our owners are the people allowing the human rights issues t go on.
Its a MAJOR difference between the Qataris and for example currently being owned by Americans. No matter what you want to sling at the Glazers they DON’T have any control over Americas political policies. Bush illegally detaining people, allowing them to be tortured and the likes is wrong and should rightfully be looked down on by the international community but it was the Bush Administration that ok’d it and allowed it not Private individual such as the Glazers. As such they aren’t responsible for them and we aren’t dragged into it