1. In writing this I am acknowledging that yesterday actually happened. We actually lost 6-1 to City at Old Trafford. There aren’t many worse days than that for us but even just in recent times, I’d argue the 4-1 against Liverpool and the 2-1 during the Munich 50th anniversary week hurt more. It was the worst day for our manager though, he claimed after the final whistle, so now we have to see what he will do to remedy it.
2. It was surprising to see Nemanja Vidic left out of the squad after playing in Europe during the week but with Jonny Evans doing well so far this season, it wasn’t a massive worry. There were several things which contributed to our downfall but none more obvious that Evans. It was his sloppy pass in City’s half which lead to their opening goal, at a time when United had been on top and in control of the game. The ball then came to him a few yards out in front of City’s goal and he swung and missed. Then, to finish the game, he got himself sent off. Mario Balotelli shrugged him off with ease, forcing him away from the ball, so Evans grabbed on to him to pull him back. Insanity. Leave David de Gea with a one and one and see what happens. If Balotelli scores, then 2-0 with 45 minutes is something we can work with (as we did at Wembley a few months ago). But 1-0 down and playing with 10 men for 45 minutes is not something you can work with. Every goal that went in made Evans’ mistake all the more painful. This isn’t about scapegoats or claiming he isn’t good enough for the club or I want rid of him. If we are going to look at yesterday honestly, Evans’ contribution was the overwhelming difference between us having a good game and the possibility of a good result, and us getting smashed 6-1 in our derby. Not unforgivable by any means, everyone makes mistakes, but Chris Smalling has to have moved above him pecking order without question now.
3. United started the game well and dominated much of the first half. We weren’t clinical enough with our final ball but most of the match was played in their half of the pitch. When you’re on top against good sides you need to make it count and we needed a goal. To then be chasing the game when you’ve been the better team is a horrible position to be put in but that’s where we found ourselves. Just as Balotelli found himself unmarked just inside our box, Welbeck got himself in a similar position when we were a goal down. Ashley Young opted to go for the back post though (you know, for all those massive players we have waiting in the box), much to Welbeck’s frustration, and it’s small moments like that which make the difference. City’s decision making was better than ours, not just going forward, but defensively too.
4. Both Darren Fletcher and Sir Alex Ferguson have acknowledged that United were foolish in relentlessly attacking when the game was a lost cause. Fletcher’s goal restored some pride in the day, with 3-1 a respectable scoreline for a team that had played with ten men for 45 minutes. With ten minutes to go, there was no way we were going to score another two goals, but our never say die attitude cost us dearly. Time and again we were caught on the break, with just a defender or two left in our half as we poured our men forward. Why? It was ridiculous. The manager can criticise Evra and Ferdinand for not showing their experience and keeping the team back but I didn’t see Sir Alex on the touchline barking at them to come back either (that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Did it? I was otherwise engaged).
5. How many fans left too early yesterday? A defiant majority stayed in their seats, singing “we’re Man United, we stay til the end” at the wankers who made their move, but the ground was half full by the final whistle. All clubs have fans who leave with five minutes to go but there were some people near me who left when the third goal went in, when there was still over 20 minutes to play! Obviously it was game over then but what absolutely disgraceful “support” that shows. You only come to watch us win? My exchanges with these people, who are season ticket holders by the way, will make for some awkwardness at the next home game and I suppose I’m grateful for having someone to direct my frustration at, but I can’t abide by the attitude of some of our fans.
6. As far as I’m concerned, we’ll still win the league. United crumbled in the end and that is a worry, although you imagine it’s an inexperienced mistake we won’t make again. With 90 minutes gone, City had played our 10 men for half the game, were beating us 3-1 and had just 51% possession. There’s no excuse for throwing away all those goals at the end but City were hardly terrifying yesterday. If they are the team we have to finish above to make it 20, I’m happy enough with that. Shit day at the office and a blot on our season but we will be the ones laughing in May.
Man Utd News 24/7
always know how to make me feel better scott
“Reactions To Defeat Against City”
It’s a bit like when Father Ted kicked Bishop Brennan up the arse. I think it is going to take it about 3 weeks for me to get over the shock of what has happened.
Evans also slipped for Ballotelli’s first, not mentioned above.
Those leaving so early are a disgrace. I was commenting with the bloke who sits next to me how with 10 mins to go it was starting to resemble wastelands. Not good enough and provided their fans with even more ammo, as if they needed it.
Repect to those who stayed til the end still chanting for the team. Worst day in a LONG time but totally agree with Scott, come May I am convinced we will be laughing last.
Whats that old song, There are more questions, than answers? Very apt, I’d say.
“If they are the team we have to beat to make it 20, I’m happy enough with that. Shit day at the office and a blot on our season but we will be the ones laughing in May.”
Hitting the nail on the head, frankly chelsea and arsenal were more better than the current bitter side, hell madrid lost 5-0 we have had some 5-0′s we’ll come back and win it in the end, the only silverlining is fergie wont need any ammo now to dish out himself the players know they have a job on their hands… on that note what a idiot that summerbee is on talksport
Also, far too often yesterday, players on the edge of the box looked for a square pass rather than shoot. Get some shots in and Welbz / Hernandex or whoever is up there can attack for any rebounds. Need far more killer instinct in and around the opposition box.
Agree with all of that.
First!
It’s time someone like you, Scott, who supports United so dearly, to make an honest, intelligent analysis of our midfield. Point 3 in today’s report just does not say enough, sorry.
We’ll surely bounce back. We’re United. We’ll never die.
appreciate your points, but 3 of the 4 defenders were woeful in the match. Evra, Evans and Ferdinand. Evans worst of all. cant get his decision making. just not reliable against the top sides. Evra needs to shape up, quick!
LOL Brett! I felt like Bishop Brennan last night too. I was half-expecting to wake up in the middle of the night and exclaim: “They DID beat us 6-1!”
Nicely put Scott. Totally agree with you bout the fans who left early, fucking disgraceful. After reading this thread you have certainly calmed me down. I am just pissed off with everyone jumping down my neck and telling me its the end of an era. We will never die!! Like you said, we will have the last laugh in May.
Their hate makes us stronger!!!
And as for the minority saying Fergie should go, get a fucking grip will ya!! Yesterday was a blip, nothing more. Remember….FORM IS TEMPORARY AND CLASS IS PERMAMENT!!!
Not long ago (maybe a month) I thought how it’s good my favourite team never looses 0:5 or somewhat. I thought that day that loosing by such a scoreline makes your team not world-class. And now….Ohhhh! It hurts. I have never seen such a scoreline with United. 18 months not beaten and now loosing to City in such a fasion – it’s hard to accept and to understand.
STR in this article also didn’t find a solution. Could Vida if starting bring another scoreline? I’m not sure. And right now i can’t think about future. Only a large black hole in my heart.
The big worry for me right now is the panic buy. Lot of clubs will try and panic buy their way out of trouble after a result like this one. Torres and Carroll are the legacy of panic buys. Too much money, not enough player. If we’re buying to reinforce then fair enough, but no single buy, no matter how big, can fix a midfield at this point in a season. We’ve got to hope and expect to win with what we’ve got. The manager thinks we can, or he would have made the move sooner.
Honestly I don’t even think it’s that bad a result. A close defeat hurts more, but when it gets crazy like this it’s harder to take the result seriously. It becomes ridiculous. And we’ve lost by those margins before and won the league. So whatever. Three points lost and a maybe a new song for the bitters, next game please.
As a team United have been leading with their chin too much lately, almost inviting teams do have a go at us. And sure it’s exciting and it’s part of how United does things, but it’s not going to win us the title if that’s all we do. The lads need to get their feet on the ground and get some focus.
Nicely put Scott. Totally agree with you bout the fans who left early, fucking disgraceful. After reading this thread you have certainly calmed me down. I am just pissed off with everyone jumping down my neck and telling me its the end of an era. We will never die!! Like you said, we will have the last laugh in May.
Their hate makes us stronger!!!
And as for the minority saying Fergie should go, get a fucking grip will ya!! Yesterday was a blip, nothing more. Remember….FORM IS TEMPORARY AND CLASS IS PERMAMENT!!!
Agree with all your points. Scott, some much needed perspective. Thanks for that.
Nick Coppack hit the nail on the head when he was talking about people who said City had a better mid-field than ours. A claim which I find laughable to say the least. Saying our MF cannot cut it in Europe and that we have a MF problem is one thing; but saying City’s is better than ours is something else.
“Roberto Mancini’s men deserved the three points and David Silva was, admittedly, brilliant. But claims City’s midfield completely over-ran United are wide of the mark. Gareth Barry, James Milner and Yaya Toure were not exceptional and few Reds supporters would welcome any member of that trio to Old Trafford on a permanent basis.”
The players produced a humiliating performance, but what is the fans’ excuse for not saying. That was disgraceful behavior and I just cannot accept that from people who call themselves United fans. I am glad you gave a fucking earful to the fans who were leaving near you and you should remind them of that during the next match when they stay the 90 mins to witness our victory. Pricks, the lot of them.
Nicely put Scott. Totally agree with you bout the fans who left early, fucking disgraceful. After reading this thread you have certainly calmed me down. I am just pissed off with everyone jumping down my neck and telling me its the end of an era. We will never die!! Like you said, we will have the last laugh in May.
Their hate makes us stronger!!!
And as for the minority saying Fergie should go, get a fucking grip will ya!! Yesterday was a blip, nothing more. Remember….FORM IS TEMPORARY AND CLASS IS PERMAMENT!!!
Without doubt yesterday was the worst feeling I have ever encountered to date. It hurts like hell. I am still in disbelief but there are just too many people now throwing it in our faces. Everywhere I go there is a constant reminder. In work I’m getting hounded by the wasteland fans and my desk has been painted blue. I’m getting bombarded with txt jokes and e-mails. Every sport site is a constant reminder, every channel. It’s ok the players being gutted but I’m sure there 80k-120k a week wage, and going home to there wage wives will take the sting out of it for them. But us fan ohhh no, we get thrown to the fucking sharks. We had to get up this morning and go to our proper jobs and put up with this shit. I just hope United go on now a win the league and we can some how put this result behind us.
Perfectly said
I also stayed till the end and vented anger at fans leaving as did the lads and lasses around me. 1-3 would have been a score, not good but one we could deal with. Utd attacking at the end was suicide and if Fletcher hadn’t have scored at 0-3 I think it may have ended at that. But the goal gave us a tiny speck of light, the shitty Posnan Pricks certainly fell silent. The Utd way is Believing we can pull anything back and its an amazing attitude to have but this time it undid us.
I too thought Shitty weren’t as amazing as the wankers are making out and the scoreline was flattering. We have nothing to worry about lets see what happens when they start getting injuries to key players we all know the season starts after Christmas when the pitches are heavy and ploughed up. When the FA Cup games come in, when the dead wood is out of the Champions League When the fixtures start piling up. Its only October.
Bad day but we’ll deal with it.
U.N.I.T.E.D
@Doghouse, ” A close defeat hurts more, but when it gets crazy like this it’s harder to take the result seriously. It becomes ridiculous. And we’ve lost by those margins before and won the league.”
Spot on. I don’t know if it’s just me, but that is one of the reasons I am not feeling the sickening pit in my stomach that I have felt after some defeats of past seasons.
As for panic buys, I think it has been well-established in his quarter century regime at Old Trafford that Sir Alex does not do that. Almost all of his decisions are always cold and calculated, and I expect the reactions to this result to be the same as well. No one will have felt more pain that Sir Alex, and I am sure he would’ve slept a lot less peacefully yesterday as a result.
I also think, as Giles pointed out in his gargantuan post yesterday (and Jeet as well today), that we should somehow try to get Berbatov into the play. Before the Berbahaters and skeptics alike pile up on my doorstep, I really feel that we lack a lot of creativity in the absence of Cleverley. Nothing much has happened with the ball in his absence over the past few weeks. Of course, playing Berba in a traditional system is not the answer. For all the people gawking at Silva’s close control and vision yesterday, Berbatov has just as much skill – if not more – with the ball at his feet. Again, I know Berbahaters are going to have a field day with this, but plan A has proved to be pretty weak over the past few weeks, so why not try with a plan B is all I am asking.
First Post Guys so be gentle!!!!
Scott, Evans had a mare, but jesus it isn’t the first time it has happened….. he’s got that mistake in him and he makes me nervous!!!! Especially beside Rio!!!!
But taking that out of the performance yesterday the real worry was the inability of the midfield to create anything out of the centre.
I thought the boss was wrong not to strengthen the midfield in the summer but I trust him and I really hope we do make it 20 but central midfield is our achilles heel and we have had no cover after Cleverleys injury in an attacking role.
We have good central midfielders, Carrick, Fletcher, Anderson and Park are good players but We are manchester united and we deserve to have someone great in there. That was shown in its starkest terms yesterday as we shifted the ball from side to side and our most dangerous and best player came deeper and deeper to get fed and try to provide that spark.
I’m not saying that we need to spend £20million on a Barry or £20million on a Milner as they aren’t good enough for us. Sneijder may not be the solution or Nasri, but £24 million and £200k a week, Mata £21million??? Van de Vaart???
But theres a £60 million hole in the centre of our team and we need to fill it. Simples!!! Pastore, Di Rossi, Sneijder, Hamsik, Goetze, Schweinsteiger, Ozil!!!! I don’t know if any of them are the answer but they are all arguably ‘great’ and give something different to what we have. Some of them won’t want to come and some we don’t want but they are better than what we have!!! To get the quality we need to spend the money in this area!!!!!
Pogba, Morrison and Tunnicliffe are 2/3 years away and will need time but we need class and you know what it may just cost £50 or £60 million.
In Fergie we trust but he doesn’t make it easy sometimes!!!!! And I would like to see a quality central midfielder bought sooner rather than later. But hey what do I know???
It was a Basel type performance all over again. I’ve been saying for a long time that if Evra’s feet were as good as his mouth then he’d still warrant his place in the team. This led to Rio being exposed at the back, a thing that is happening more frequently the more i watch. How many goals came from city players cutting in from where evera should have been?
City didnt play brilliantly, we capitulated at the back in the last 10 mins.
United lost the derby, it hurts but it is only one game, we will learn more from this.
fergie needs a rback,a cback and a midfielder rio looks to struggle evey game now and evans is not the player we all hoped he would be,come jan fergie better buy baby buy!!
On the points…
1 – Have to agree. While I was completely sickened yesterday (and still sick to think of it now), it doesn’t feel like the loss to Chelsea at Old Trafford. It was sickening that day too, but also incredibly worrying that we had thrown the league away that day. The same feeling hit me several times in 2009, including that 4-1 defeat and the other disappointing results we just kept racking up to leave the door swinging open. This time, even at 6-1, I don’t feel like that.. even if I am bitterly disappointing with United.
2 – Again, agree. Where the hell was Vidic? If Fergie had expected an all out assault and left him out because he hasn’t had enough game time, the ironic thing is that game wasn’t shaping up that way at all. And as for Evans, bad mistake on that red card and I also thought he should have made sure Balotelli didn’t get that first shot away.
3 – Yep agreed.
4 – I agree with this in the context of yesterday. Down to ten men, tired from being overrun in midfield after the sending off and more or less aimless. But overall, if we were 3-0 down in a game at OT and pulled one back with 10 minutes + injury time to go, I’d definitely be pushing for them to take the risk. Yesterday was just ridiclous, leaving themselves in 3 or 4 vs. 2 at the back. It was difficult to watch!
5 – Yep, fuck them!
6 – Yep, still see us lifting the silverware come the end of the season. I hope the match that seals it is the Manchester Derby in April!
you forgot to mention how CRAP how midfield is btw!!!!!
whats with all the popups all over the site too,, REALLY annoying!!!!
Personally, I refuse to pin as much blame on Evans. The problem, and this was a LOT more evident when we were down to 10 men, is how often we allow our defenders 1 v 1 against our opponents. Jonny made the wrong decision, but he shouldn’t have been in that position in the first place.
Plus, we’ve played against City with 10 men before. A 4-2 cup win at OT as well as a 3-1 defeat at the Wastelands come to mind. Both performances were a ton more spirited than this. Not saying that Evans’ red didn’t change the game. But what happened after that wasn’t a natural course of events imo.
I was one of the few that did stay right till the end and sang ‘We love United’ but the North Stand where I sat was nearly empty. Credit to the West Stand which still had a fair few fans left. What really got to me though was the tourist all posing with their half United half City scarves smiling and laughing if nothing had happened.
Horrible walk back with smug smiles from the Bitters outside the East Stand, no doubt they will be rubbing this in for a long time to come just like 1989. Christ is this what the Premiership has become? Which oil tycoon can spend the most money to ensure the title? Guess we have to live with it now.
A final point about the red card, lets not forget that Vidic has also been sent off in this fashion. It happens to the best of them when they are let down by the marking in front of them.
We missed the likes of Carrick, Vidic and Park badly yesterday. Did Fergie even elaborate why the latter two weren’t even on the fucking bench? Bizarre.
Yepp, I think 3 of their goals came from Evra’s side, and countless other chances. I thought Young did an awful job of protecting him at times as well though, which you don’t expect coz he usually does his fair share of defensive duties.
Interesting point Scott made about SAF not coming to the touchline and telling his players to hold back. I think that’s the pride factor kicking in- the media and the City fans would’ve had a field day if he’d done that, just imagine……”Look what Fergie’s been reduced to…damage limitation..etc etc”.
a really bad day for us. should’ve stay at 3-1. but after that, i dont know what the heck happened. goal number 5 and 6 come quickly as our defense are ‘too strong’ with only putting smalling and ferdinand. both of ‘em are not quick enough to chill down the pace of dzeko, nasri and silva. even de gea is frustrated with the game, shown after the 6th goal. defense line-up are very poor. all four of ‘em. smalling keep losing the ball easily, ferdy loses his pace now, evans the worst! and evra has to get himself back.
in midfield, ando was trying hard. fletch was struggling in 1st half but in 2nd half he’s okay. young was poor. does nothing at all! nani should’ve stay till 90th minute.. we need to get our midfielders to control the game, to give rooney sublime passes, until then we will have to struggle hard, even with otelul galati.
in attacking, welbz didnt show any great stuff as the there’re lack of passes to both strikers. rooney worked hard from up to down the pitch trying to get the ball into hart’s goal.
our ‘never die’ spirit killed us this time. very hard to accept the defeat. the bitters will have a new song when we play against them later. but overall, we’re UNITED. and we wont let us fall. we will bounce back and get the 20th trophy. GLORY GLORY MAN UNITED!
Couldn’t agree more on the issue of supporters leaving. In sports you have to be able to take a defeat on the chin and still stand upright. I hate it when people leave before the final whistle, it is a sign of weakness. Those people should rather stay at home and turn of the tellie if things are going bad and let proper supperters have the season tickets.
I found Fergie saying it was suicidal when we were attacking strange. I couldn’t see him bark orders out at the players to stay back at 3-1. I was anxiously looking at the bench frequently seeing if he was going to change it after the sending off. But no. More square pegs and round holes with Fletcher pushed to right back for too long and Evra pushing too far forward as he did vs Basle. Took far too long to make the substitutions required to stabilise the game at 1-0. The players were listening to what was left of the crowd to pull it back to 3-2, fuck knows why. They don’t usually listen to the crowd when we’re 4-0 up and start playing keep ball for the last 20 mins in certain games.
This isn’t hindsight talking but Vidic should have started if he’s fit he plays. Don’t care about the abuse I may get now, but Anderson shouldn’t play just watch how many times he gives the ball away in simple positions. Was static a lot as well which is criminal when you play in the middle both.
As for Evans a lot of fans are just pissed off we kept him over Pique and spin it which way you want that decision looks more and more baffling. Pique may have gone back to Barca regardless, thats just conjecture and zero fact but he never played the amount of games Evans did. Had he, story may well have been different. We didn’t even get a good transfer fee out of it. Evans has the same amount of love from the fans as Kieran Richardson did and Darren Gibson does. Thats dangerous territory.
I don’t agree with it but I can get my head round at the fans who left at 4-1 and beyond. Especially those sat in the heavens. The guys who left at 3-0. You know who you are and you’re all a bunch of cunts. Its the same old crowd old men with their glasses and grey hair and the women. At least where I was sitting anyway.
Finally, we wouldn’t have lost by that amount with 11 on the pitch, and 3 goals did come in stoppage time. Pressure is off us one more hard game vs Everton away next week and then we have a good run of league fixtures till we play l’arse. So yes the league isn’t gone. This result can only be healed if we go to their place and smash them 6-0. However I doubt that will happen. Oh well can’t wait for Tuesday.
Just another thing that I noticed in the first half. Contrary to what a lot of people might think,our attacking play doesn’t only slow down when Berbatov is playing. Yes we were better than City in the first half, but the tempo was non existant.
I wrote on the other thread that with regards to the defence – Rio looked both lost and past-it yesterday; Patrice Evra is out-of-position far too often for a veteran.
Blaming Jonny Evans seems to the rage today but – let’s get real ? – UTD were only one goal behind when he was sent off and in the 53rd minute there was a glorious opportunity for Ashley Young to draw UTD level.
Things went pear-shaped thereafter when SAF continued with an attack-first policy with ten men – that was tragic when Balotelli scored the second and they got the third but the situation only became farcical after they got the fourth, fifth, and sixth after the 89th minute.
Also, it seems to me that in the circumstances of the red card, Evans was caught between a rock-and-a-hard-place, damned if he did grab Balotelli but also he would have been damned if he didn’t. Moreover, what about the two passes that set up Balotelli’s first goal and the red-card situation ? Shouldn’t we assess the build-up to those rock/hard place moments ?
Sure, Evans was the last man but he was not alone in bearing a burden – in the build-up to the first goal, James Milner was allowed time/space to run onto David Silva’s pass and then cut the ball back to SuperMario who made a simply-perfect side-footer into the far corner. And, who was marking Aguero (?) when he slid the ball around Evans in the red-card situation ? Where was Rio/Patrice ? These were mistakes of team-defence but Evans was at the sharp end of it.
Thinking over the deluge of criticism from UTD “fans”, I’m reminded of the classic Python line: “he’s not the Messiah, just a very naughty boy”. For all the “hurt” that “fans” feel after a total shellacking from the noisy neighbours, it really is only one game. Sure UTD are five points back and have a significantly inferior goal-difference BUT that was the exact situation at this time last year when the RentBoyz looked imperious. History usually doesn’t repeat itself so I’m not going to minimize the impact of yesterday’s loss but there are, after all, 29 more games to play.
Leaving aside tomorrow’s match at Aldershot which is now more of a nuisance than a really important match, what’s SAF going to do ? He’s got two older, veteran defenders – Rio and Patrice Evra – who really look shaky and, to be honest, slipping down the down-side at an accelerating pace but lots of quality back-up/injured players in Vidic/Smalling/Evans (!)/Jones and the Da Silvas. He’s got three solid journeymen midfielders of varying talents/quality in Michael Carrick, DarrenFletcherinho, Anderson, and one kid with promise in Tom Cleverley. He’s also got one brilliant winger in Nani and two journeymen-plus wingers in Ashley Young and Antonio Valencia plus a quartet of strikers with different skill sets in TheWayneBoy, DannyTheLad, Chicharito, and Dimmy. To my way of thinking there’s nothing “wrong” with that assemblage of talent but what seems to have been found out on Sunday was that SAF’s insistence on playing two wingers against a team which plays as narrowly as ManShitty was the root-cause of the problems that cascaded into a shambolic defeat.
I wrote on here last spring/summer that I thought that UTD had a “ScholesReplacement” in TheWayneBoy and that while he’s a terrific striker, he would be more valuable to the team as an attacking midfielder. Yesterday’s match confirmed that – Mancini’s plan worked to perfection: TheWayneBoy was positionally all-over-the-place not really a striker or a midfielder and so he was marginalized in his impact.
In addition, UTD kept trying to shuffle the ball out left in the belief that Ashley Young could beat Micah Richards and he did but his final ball wasn’t good enough. As if this wasn’t a strange tactical decision, this season’s most dangerous player – Nani – was not given the opportunity to torment Gael Clichy, which is something he’s done in almost every encounter with Clichy. Nani is a difference-maker and inherently inconsistent – he was in Rumania in mid-week but “came to life” in the second half and that turned the CL tie in UTD’s favour. Neither of the other two wingers – Young or Antonio Valencia – have Nani’s ability to turn on the magic so it’s just weird to starve-the-beast, especially when “the beast” seems to have a track-record of bullying Clichy and eating his lunch.
Coming on the heels of such a shambolic, lop-sided defensive catastrophe, I am not unconvinced that my pre-match thought to play Valencia at right back, Young on the left and Nani on the right, with TheWayneBoy in midfield (Michael Carrick “holding”), and to pair Chicharito with DannyTheLad wouldn’t have been a better option for this match. Sure, it would have been a high-risk option but it would also have been a high-reward option if the stars were aligned in UTD’s favour.
My thinking was that you want your best players to play – not to sit on the bench like Valencia and Chicharito. UTD dominated possession/chances in the first half but couldn’t quite get those stars in alignment – Mancini was playing narrow and hoping to hit UTD on the counter, which is what happened.
UTD got caught betwixt-and-between, BUT, if those attacking stars were in alignment…….
Perfectly said Scott, our defence was woeful yesterday, cut open too easily. Hoping it will be a kick up the arse we need. Vidic would have brought an element of strength and experience to our back 4. Up front, we were wasteful. Nani didn’t make the desire contribution and Anderson was wasteful.
Will be good to see the kids tomorrow night and then away at Everton next week for a response to this crushing defeat
Keep the faith
I agree that fans leaving early was a disgrace, but lets be honest, were they even making any noise during the game? They just went to watch their circus in action, didn’t like what they saw and they left early. We need better fans at OT imo.
(That doesn’t go for everyone who was there. I realize quite a few were trying to get behind the team).
@ Costas – That could be said for any game not just cit-eh having said that not sure how it come on TV but it was good at times where we were but only in bits and pieces even at 4-1.
When you get knocked down, you get back up again.
Panic is not the answer. Never has been, never will be.
Like Scott mentioned, I also did not see Sir Alex on sideline, telling our players to pull their heads in. He caled it “crazy football” after the match, and when I heard that, and when I heard that, I thought: “So why didn’t you or one of the coaches tell them to stop?” Given our history, especially our history under Sir Alex, the lack of any specific instruction to play “sane football” may even have been construed by the players as tacit approval of what they were trying to do. But it’s also valid to ask why Rio or Evra didn’t try to settle things down. Or Rooney, who apparently sees himself as our captain-in-waiting.
Re Evans: it was a mistake. it was bad judgment. However, let’s not forget that Vidic did a similar thing against the dippers a couple of years ago, when he pulled Torres down just inside our half, after Torres got past him. He too was sent off. And neither of those incidents comes anywhere close to Ole Gunnar Solskjaer’s red card after he ran down the entire pitch to drag down Newcastle’s Robert Lee. Neither Vidic nor Solskjaer were lynched or fired. Evans needs to learn from this and I am sure he will.
As for the midfield, we were simply outnumbered. We can argue about the relative quality of our players and theirs too, but I don’t think that helps when we were clearly outnumbered. We had two guys and sometimes 3, battling against three, four and sometimes five.
Excuse me but whats fucking disgraceful was the shit we were served on the pitch. Any fucker knew there was no chance in hell in recovering from that abject performance
@Stateside and Denton, Unfortunately, I have bad news for you guys, not everyone is going to be as sane as the rest of us. After a defeat like that, people need a scapegoat and Evans is that. People are going to forget all the good work he has done for us in the time Vidic has been out injured; in the time Rio has been out; in the time the Da Silvas have been out; He has kept the impacts of all those injuries to a minimum. I haven’t seen him do that much wrong in all the games he has played until yesterday. Sadly, he chose this game of all to make most of his mistakes, and he is going to get crucified for it. Stateside said it perfectly in that Ole’s red came to my mind immediately. Of course, that was not his fault to begin with, and it was a different scenario but still…. It is pretty easy to say everything is Evans’ fault given that the scoreline wouldn’t have been shambolic in his absence, but let’s not forget the good work he has done so far. Comparing Jonny to Gibson and Richardson is an absolute piss take as far as I am concerned.
Well said scott
@Notorious
Hi mate. From what I could tell, it didn’t come off pretty well on the telly. Particulary in the first half. It seemed like the place came alive a bit when we created chances after Evans’ red and then after Fletcher’s goal. And I don’t know if it’s because the main tv camera is pretty close to the City fans (and visiting fans in general), but it felt like they were outsinging us for most of the game.
This is a subject I hate bringing up. It’s not like I can be at OT each week to do what I suggest we should be doing anyway. But I feel that in games like yesterday, the fans and the team have to help each other out. The players might not have needed the support when they won 19 league games at OT in a row, but they definitely needed it yesterday.
Costas … I’m with you, re your post at 15:35. The idea that we need to keep a certain Bulgarian on the bench because he slows us down is looking very shaky. Not for the first time recently, we have played a team that, on paper, ought to produce fast, sharp, moving football, only to see them fail to deliver. (Now, I can just tell Denton is going to jump in here, but it’s OK Denton, I’m pretty sure I know what you’re going to say! I did like your post right after Costas’s, by the way, but I’m sure you’ll understand when I say I have no desire to enter into any discussion about Berbatov with you!)
@ Costas. I totally agree mate. Its hard to do though the club needs to have sections in each part of the ground where people will sing or something. Its quite obvious to me the club doesn’t give a fuck about shit like that. Perfect example was chelski last year in the league for the first 35 minutes when everyone was standing place was rocking as soon as we were told to sit down by the cunting stewards a lot of the mouths shut. Then you get the bimbos who get pissed off with standing and singing, don’t wear high heels to a match and expect X Factor you dumb bitch. Fans like these piss me off have no reason to be anywhere OT within a 20 mile radius. Now you got that txt msg thing where fans can dob other fans in and I’ve seen singing fans ejected as a result. Couldn’t make it up.
@Stateside
Plus, if we are going to play at a slow tempo anyway, why not start a striker that glues the ball at his feet and rarely surrenders possession?
Ok, that’s enough of my Berba pimping! It had little to do with yesterday’s debacle. Thought I should just put it out there.
At least all 3 of us agree on Evans.
A someone who has supported the club for 46 years, and who has been forced to do so from a distance, and has only ever had the opportunity to see our lads play in person once (at Highbury, November 28, 1992, Mark Hughes won it for us with the only goal), I find it hard to come terms with people leaving the ground. Especially OT. I would crawl over broken glass for the opportunity to watch our lads play at OT. I would gargle vomit — even someone else’s vomit — for that privilege. And I would do so even if I knew in advance that we would get hammered 1-6 by Shitty or anyone else. When the TV cameras cut over to show our fans streaming out while the match was in progress, I almost fucking cried.
As for the atmosphere or lack of it, I generally withhold comment on that, since it can be difficult to tell on TV. You’re at the mercy of microphones and other shit. But there have been enough people on here, who were at the game, and they say it was quiet — and not just at the end. Sad, really.
@Gorsehill
1/2 and 1/2 scarves are a disgrace can’t understand how any red could have that blue shit around their necks or any other Prem team other than Utd.
@NRD
Hi mate. Yeh got to agree the fans wern’t as bad as being made out. It doesn’t carry very well on TV, wether they turn the noise down I’m not sure. Stayed till the end sang till the end and proud. If you’re in East sand tier2 come and say hello and have a sing song. The seats next to me are an Irish contingent, they don’t make every game.
Really really hurt! No rest from the ABU, have to stay away from social forums and newspaper articles. Cant stand being slandered by ABUs. We must put this behind us. Im sure it was a greater nightmare to SAF than to anyone else so Im sure he will do anything to make sure we forget this day. Might even spend the odd 60M on our midfeild. Otherwise expect a response from UNITED.
I have to believe good will come of this. I don’t know what form that will take. But I have to believe that SAF and his staff, and the players, will tackle this head on and work together to find a solution, and that they will do so with the support of the owners and management (if money is required). In some ways, it may even have been a good thing that this happened while the Glazer-pups were in attendance at OT.
I can’t remember the last time we conceded from an left-sided attack (i.e. against Smalling/Fabio/Jones). I may have a poor memory, but the majority of goals we have conceded this season (and probably last season) came from down the right where Evra has been caught miles out of position.
He’s been playing for too long without any real competition for the left-back slot and it’s shows. He’s virtually guaranteed a place every game no matter how badly he plays.
His attacking play is generally ineffectual. His crossing is very poor and he frequently loses possession when it matters and then can’t be fucked to get back into position when the other team counter.
The trouble is, it’s not just poor form, he’s been like this for a season and a half now and I don’t know if he has been instructed to attack at all costs, but I think the problem lies with him and he needs to sort it out or he’ll be first out the door in the summer.
Couldnt believe the lack of passion from some sections of the fans yesterday! Admitedly we werent playing well for parts of the game and the fans were a bit shell shocked but that could only have happened in the second half. Im with keano on this one – too many prawn sandwich eating executives at old trafford too busy in-play betting with their iphones and chatting about the stock exchange to care about the team! (at least from where I sat) As for Rio, Evra and Evans they deserve a weeks wage docking for that shocking performance yesterday!…rant over – ah I feel soo much better now!
What the fish is an “honest, intelligent analysis of our midfield”? One way or another, our midfield is ours. I don’t give a shit about the other cows in other farms.
To be honest, I don’t even care what Scott thinks about our midfield, unless he is actually a secret advisor to SAF.
For those thinking money is driving City to success, sure they could be a 2 or 3 season wonder, but they’ll get found out. Just like Leeds and Chelsea did.
I’m almost over the result, already looking forward to seeing Pogba play on Wednesday.
And one question I posed on another forum: knowing the result, what say some of you to “slow and boring” football with “lazy Berbatov”, “backwards Carrick”, “oldman Giggs” and “shirtseller Park” in the side?
YorYor … “shirtseller Park”? I like that.
It may sound counter-intuitive after they scored 6 but City won the derby because of intelligent defending. United dominated possession and looked far more comfortable on the ball early on but couldn’t produce any chances because every City defender knew their role and kept their positioning more or less spot on. They showed United a brick wall for 25 minutes then went up the other end and scored. After that they had the confidence to play on the same level as United for the rest of the first half and once Evans went it was game over.
The game was lost because United couldn’t turn their early dominance into a goal. What could they have done differently? Bought quality midfield talent in the summer. It’s an argument we’ve all heard before but United lacked the cutting edge of a fluid, unpredictable creative midfielder yesterday (although the same could be said for most of our games since Bolton). With Cleverley injured, there just isn’t anyone to fill that role. Fletcher and (to a lesser extent) Anderson are both workhorses, but that isn’t what you need to unlock a rock solid defence like City’s. Although he didn’t play at his best yesterday, Silva has done exactly this week in week out for City so far this season and they are reaping the benefits. Ferguson shouldn’t panic buy, but he should buy because if nothing else the position needs cover for when Cleverley is out. In the meantime his recovery can’t come soon enough!
That sums it up pretty much.
In regards of the fans who leave their seats, please note that it is quite disrespectful to us fans who do not have the posibillity to own season tickets due to geographical or economical reasons.
I even got pissed at my friend who tried to leave my couch and go home on 0-3!
There is not one footballer who is immune from mistakes but Evan’s is more prone to them than most. He was shaky against Norwich aswell, letting long balls bounce, getting out muscled, misjudging tackles. The lad is obviously trying and cares about the club but sadly he’s not good enough for United. The fact he started ahead of 16 million pound defender on the bench and our club captain was quite frankly a massive cock up by Fergie.
I think this is a wake up call for the players. The last few games prior City really did expose our vulnerability in the mid/def departments. As you said again, losing Evans should not be an excuse for conceding 6 goals.
And I also agree with you that Smailing > Evans by miles. I’ve never sold on Evans that much to be honest. He’s improving which is good but games after games prove that Smailing has better skills, judgement and consistency.
StateSideAussie @ 16:01: “Now, I can just tell Denton is going to jump in here, but it’s OK Denton, I’m pretty sure I know what you’re going to say! I did like your post right after Costas’s, by the way, but I’m sure you’ll understand when I say I have no desire to enter into any discussion about Berbatov with you!)”
I am not going there.
@YorYor:
It has anything to do with our defeat 6-1?
Spot on Scott: “As far as I’m concerned, we’ll still win the league”.
This win means Shitty will be the team to beat this season. Experienced managers will look through the result and prepare, and Manchini will struggle as his players will be high for a long time.
Furthermore United will be calling for revenge on the pich. And if Vidics withdraw means he will be better for the rest of the season, SAF have made a decent decision on this matter to.
Berbatov would’ve made no difference at all. And quite frankly, I’m glad he didn’t start the game. Imagine this place, if Berba played in that shambles yesterday? Deary me.
Gopher Brown @ 16:30: “The trouble is, it’s not just poor form, he’s [Patrice Evra] been like this for a season and a half now and I don’t know if he has been instructed to attack at all costs, but I think the problem lies with him and he needs to sort it out or he’ll be first out the door in the summer.”
I’m half-way with you there, m8. At his best, Patrice is a “ninja footballer”; at his worst, he caught out of position on a fairly regular basis. At the moment, however, the problem is that there really is no one else who can play left back and provide left-footedness – in contrast, there are four guys who can play on the right side with right-footedness. I can see Zeki Fryers getting a look but he’s very young and very inexperienced and, therefore, likely to be very, very inconsistent. Who else is there ?
Patrice is not only a “ninja footballer” he’s also durable and very tough but – you’re right – his positional play has been a big, big problem for a long, long time at key times in massive fixtures. He was directly responsible for losing the advantage in Munich; he was caught out on all three of the goals Barcelona scored at Wembley; and he was only sightly-less awful than Rio yesterday.
Yesterday, United were not good enough, defence was exposed too much due to a non existent midfield, it was always going to happen, Goodison on Saturday could go either way- perfect response from the Team or a Merseyside mauling if care is not taken
Willie … oh year, I don’t think The Berb would have made any difference. And I totally agree about what would have happened if he had been on field during that mess lol. But as a general comment, the argument that “he slows us down” needs to be put out to pasture. Funnily enough, it’s not that I disagree with the statement. I do think that if I was going to set up for a fast, counter-attacking game, he probably wouldn’t be in my starting 11. The problem with it is the underlying assumption that whether we play a fast counter-attacking game or not is a choice entirely down to us — that it’s a decision we make, in isolation from the opposition. Whereas I think it is more accurate to say that in many cases, we just don’t have the opportunity to play as we would like — because the opposition is set up a certain way, or instructed a certain way, or their players are too good. And so sometimes we actually need to play a different game, because we have no choice or because it would be silly to attempt otherwise.
Willie … oh year, I don’t think The Berb would have made any difference. And I totally agree about what would have happened if he had been on field during that mess lol. But as a general comment, the argument that “he slows us down” needs to be put out to pasture. Funnily enough, it’s not that I disagree with the statement. I do think that if I was going to set up for a fast, counter-attacking game, he probably wouldn’t be in my starting 11. The problem with it is the underlying assumption that whether we play a fast counter-attacking game or not is a choice entirely down to us — that it’s a decision we make, in isolation from the opposition. Whereas I think it is more accurate to say that in many cases, we just don’t have the opportunity to play as we would like — because the opposition is set up a certain way, or instructed a certain way, or their players are too good. And so sometimes we actually need to play a different game, because we have no choice or because it would be silly to attempt otherwise.
Ok Stateside, I heard you the first time!
Nice post Scott! Pretty much sums up the weekend.
1. Johnny Evans – There does need to be some degree of responsibility. He should step up and take the stick and blame for his inexperienced mistake and getting red carded in that instant. There was no need at 1-0 down to do that and no need to worry about going 2-0 down because we are United. However, that being said, JE is not solely to blame for our loss. A lot of our players were flat. Rio did not look like the experienced veteran everyone has hyped his play to be over the past few years. In all honesty, Rio in my opinion is getting to that point in his career where I just am not 100% certain he can compete anymore. He makes me nervous even more than JE does. He’s had a few close calls this season himself already and could have easily been red carded.
2. I think if JE had played next to vidic we might have seen a different story unfold JE seemed really good in there with Vidic the first game of the season. Smalling and Vida also make a great tandem and in my opinion should be our favoured starting CB’s. With Jones on one wing, and Evra or a Da Silva Twin on the other. Although I do wonder about maybe even getting one more defender given the injury problems and loss of O’Shea and Brown (another minor mistake).
3. Evra has had a really weird season for me last year and this. Evra has been foolish defensively. He’s a huge asset going forward without question but often times he let’s his man give him the slip defensively and a lot of goals opposition score against us come down Evra’s side lately because of his lack of defending prowess. It’s a bit disturbing to me given that guy was an absolute beast 2 seasons ago not letting anything get by him. What happened to that Evra? Did he get his big contract, the praise of the manager and decide oh I’m good for 4 years now so I can just do whatever the fuck?? Kinda like to know what’s going through his head these days.
4 I thought our wide men were the bright spot of the game for us. The reason we only drew against liverpool was because the manager got the tactics wrong. He played 5 in the middle instead of 4-4-2 and we tried to play from the middle instead of using our wingers. United are at their best when their probing, switching, prodding, from side to side and threatening goal from the wings. As we did in the first half.
5. The dreaded midfield argument – I tend to agree with most fans here. Our midfield are good but not good enough for United’s standards. We lack a “Roy Keane” we really need a Midfield who can get stuck in and win the ball back when we lose it. Cleverley’s youthful enthusiasm did that for us and his ability to get the ball to our wingers and forwards was remarkable for a young lad at the start of the season. We were blessed and all ready to hail Sir Alex the genius again with his decision to keep Clev’s from going out on loan and letting him make his spot on the team (FUCK YOU KEVIN DAVIS YOU FAT FUCKING PIG). My concern though is going forward how long will Clev’s youthful enthusiasm last? We still need to address the midfield concern and most of the names I hear bantered about I don’t think really cut it. We tried to make Fletcher into our new Roy Keane and for a while in 08/09 it worked but this sudden illness and a lack of starting time with guys like Ando coming up Fletch has lost his form and remember he’s only getting older. We need a player who can go forward and deliver the ball but that man whoever it might be has also got to be able to win the ball from players like Gerard, Lampard, Toure, Silva, Nasri and in Europe, Iniesta, Xavi and so on.
6. Just lastly to sum up this post. I thought our timing was off, passing was lazy: Ando, Nani and Young all seemed to lack creativity and looked to me to be flat. No invention in creating space for our forwards in order to try and get goals. And where was the overlap run? When young or nani had the ball where was Jones or Evra cantering up behind them to receive a back heel or a nice lay off for a cross into the box? It wasn’t there on Sunday that’s for sure.
That all being said. I have faith in our squad. We are Manchester United, we are 19 times champions of the modern EPL. We were 8 points behind Chelsea at this stage last season and we still won the league. Man City will drop points there’s no question. They’ve never had to play the number of games that we have, they’re inexperienced playing in europe, and Mancini will get his tactics wrong a game or two as well. We just have to make sure we capitalize by taking maximum points where we can. We have to let this loss serve as a wake up call. Hopefully the manager will look at the options he has available and address areas of weakness in January.
We are Man United and we will keep our Red Flag’s Flying high. None of this jumping off the bandwagon bullshit like Arsenal fans when we get a bad result. I’m sick of people doubting our players and leaving OT when there’s 20 mins left to play and then criticizing the manager for not buying Sneijder in the summer. Get over it. We’re Manchester FUCKING United. We come through at the end of the day.
@ Stateside on Berbatov – “But as a general comment, the argument that “he slows us down” needs to be put out to pasture.”
In reality that comment only needs to be directed at 3 people on here they know who they are and bleat on about it on and on all the time. Thank fuck he didn’t come on at all.
Next few weeks should be interesting in what Fergie does with the team, I for one hope he just picks his strongest team and sticks with it instead of changing it by 5-6 players every week. That doesn’t help. Sort out the centre of the park. If he’s going to play Anderson tell him to concentrate when he’s passing and run. Otherwise let him rot in the reserves.
Willie … yeah, sorry mate! Shouldn’t have aimed that at you. Cheers!
Notorious @ 17:47: “
Ooops ! I’ve got a new computer and pressed the wrong button. Sorry about that.
Notorious @ 17:47: “Next few weeks should be interesting in what Fergie does with the team, I for one hope he just picks his strongest team and sticks with it instead of changing it by 5-6 players every week.”
I completely agree about the continuous chopping-and-changing – to some extent, however, it’s the force of circumstance because of injuries and suspensions. Still, having the same guys play together most of the time has to be beneficial as opposed to playing alongside a different guy on a game-by-game basis.
And, yeah, ” comment only needs to be directed at 3 people on here they know who they are and bleat on about it on and on all the time.”
To quote the De Niro character in TAXI DRIVER: “Are you talking about me ? Are you ?? Are you ?”
Long-time reader, first time poster.
Still reeling from yesterday. Whilst wishing to avoid knee-jerk reactions and forgetting our excellent start to the season, two players worry me in particular, and Evans isn’t actually one of them (enough has been said about him… mostly true).
Evra has never come back from South Africa 2010. He seems to spend most of his time mouthing off instead of playing, never mind actually defending once in a while. In addition, after his French captaincy debacle in South Africa, it’s little wonder that he battles to inspire/rally our troops and instead gets involved in petty spats and other peripheral verbeage. What was the deal between him and the ref before we even kicked off at Anfield? Worryingly, he seems to be both unrestable and undroppable, although that could also be because the da Silvas seem to share injuries as well as looks.
The other one is Anderson. The lad always looks like he’s just returning for pre-season training. Out of shape and gives the ball away practically every time he touches it. We’ve definitely got the oft-discussed problems in midfield, but I tell you I’d pick Carrick over him every day of the week, with or without that bloody Fabregas chant!
Troubling times, and we’re in danger on placing incredibly unjust pressure on Tom Cleverley when he returns.
Let’s get back on track at Goodison please.
Perfect article scott. I simply CANNOT wait to see us on the pitch again at Everton. We need a reaction and fast. I love how everyone is writing us off. To that I say GO ON. please write us off. PLEASE. It’s a lot better to win the title when nobody expects you to do it. Pressure has been taken off us after the result. Now we just have to kick on from here and please Fergie for the last time 4-5-1 not freaking 4-4-2. I hate that formation with my life now.
I think he is.
Maybe this awful game was the wake up call we needed to shake us out of complacency – scraping together winning games 1-0 with mediocre flair and skill, taking our 20th for granted. The rest of the EPL are catching up and aren’t afraid/in awe of us. Maybe this was the game that proved we need to improve our midfield. We have to work harder, with more passion and creativity.
WillieRdNut @ 18:59: “I think he is.”
True dat !
dannysoya @ 18:59: “please Fergie for the last time 4-5-1 not freaking 4-4-2. I hate that formation with my life now.”
OK – how would you deploy the troops ?
@Denton- in majority of games it’s fine. But in a small percentage of games (in the League, I’m talking Arsenal, Liverpool, City and Chelsea)……we’ve gotta go Rooney up top on his own and get an extra body in midfield IMO.
And if Cleverley was part of that 3 man midfield….what with him being so energetic and so forward thinking, we wouldn’t need to worry about Rooney being isolated either. Cleverley, plus the 2 wide men Nani & Young (both of whom are capable of coming infield)…..they offer more than enough support for the lone striker.
You could also slant that into a 4-2-3-1, make sure that Rooney has maximum support, without really sacrificing midfield too much. Carrick + Fletcher/Ando as the ’2′….and then Cleverley as the most attacking midfielder.
@ denton davey – Yes I was but I said 3 people you’re just one. Talk about guilty conscience. As far as I’m aware you go to games so whilst I think the facts you apply to your logic regarding Berbatov is somewhat asinine there is some method to your madness. People who apply he slows our play down just because Sky TV pundits tells them to, are the type of people who left at 3-0 yesterday and can go fuck themselves.
Regarding chopping and changing that can’t be helped in defence but it can in midfield and up front. Its that what I don’t like. Will always be injuries but it disrupts the fluidity of the team.
But when we go with 451/433, people bitch that we look crap with a lone striker, and some of them moan about fergie leaving Hernandez on the bench while others say it’s proof that he doesn’t “trust” Hernandez (oops, sorry, Berbatov) and everyone hates that we have to play so defensively.
Agreed Stateside. Now we have 7 strikers as well, 5 if you drop Diouf and Macheda out if it but still 5 into 1 doesn’t work. We have to play Rooney as part of the 5 and the other striker as the 1 in that formation and that only works if we have midfielder that can tackle and not consistently misplace passes.
It won’t be defensive if you’ve got the right personnel though. If you have enough energy and runners from midfield and out wide, then there won’t be a problem IMO.
A lot of time though, we’ve had a midfield of say- Fletcher-Carrick-Scholes….now they’re all good players, but not the most attack minded, none of them would look to penetrate with their runs.
Dyu remember in 08/09, when we used to line up with Fletcher-Carrick-Anderson for the big games. Friggin awesome combination, and we used to play some great stuff. Now say if you took Fletcher out and put Cleverley in there. Cleverley-Carrick-Ando……plenty of support for the front man, plenty of energy (i.e Cleverley and Ando can get back and make it a midfield 3 again)….and Carrick as the insurance policy holding.
The only problem would be that we’ve got 7 strikers, and in this formation only 1 plays. But tbh…it’s only for the tough games (like I mentioned above)….85% of the time we can play 4-4-2 and still do the business. And in any case….Owen, Berba, Diouf & Macheda aren’t considered for big matches by Fergie anyway….so I don’t see it being too problematic.
Made my way from Eire yesterday for the game, I sacrifice a lot to watch my beloved team play and could never think twice at leaving early, all them f*$&@ing twats who leave early should’nt bother their time, if we were winning 6-1 they all woulda stayed! Bunch of clowns the lot of them! We will be back to haunt that group of money mongers!
@ denton. thanks for your question. Rooney is the second striker/AM. Welbeck is upfront. 4 behind rooney are carrick/Fletcher, Young, Anderson/Cleverley , Nani.
@ Sparkz – Did you mean 09/10. Can’t recall Scholes Carrick and Fletcher starting a lot of games together that season due to Ronaldo, Rooney, Berbatov, Argie Troll situation up front. Not to mention Park and Giggs on the flanks.
In 2009 this formation worked to PERFECTION against a lot of teams especially Arsenal and City where it worked like a charm. It is a very very easy formation to change quickly without the players having to alter their positions too much. 4-5-1 in defence can easily change into 4-3-3 in attack Rooney and Nani Just push up. it can work. alternatively we can play Rooney upfront. park as the AM like we did in 09 and the four midfielders stay the same.
Ronaldo was sold that summer Notorious. IMHO, too many forwards and not enough options in CM.
Cheers dannysoya. Towards the end of the season we did set up like that, jogged my memory a bit. Who knows maybe that is the way we will set up once Cleverly is back. The set up as it is make the centre midfield pairing non-existent. If that is the case then we need to ship out 3 strikers and bring in someone to play in the Fletcher/Carrick and the Anderson/Cleverly positions in case of injury. Even if Fergie is thinking of playing Park or Giggs in the Cleverly position we still need an extra body if Fletcher or Carrick gets injured neither who I feel is defensive enough although they do a role against certain teams.
@ Willierednut – I meant to say to Sparkz did he mean 09/10. I was referring to 08/09 having read my post, should have meant that. But agreed need more options in the middle instead of conversion jobs a la Park. Especially if we’re not even going to play them.
Actually, let me rephrase that. Too many Forwards and not enough quality options in center mid. We were spoiled in the 90s with a Becks Keane Scholes and Giggs midfield. If Cleverley’s Scholes long term replacement, a direct replacement for Hargreaves would be a smart move by Fergie. He felt, he needed that type of player in the squad. The lad at Newcastle is a player United have been linked with before. Not saying, he’s the one, but someone like him, would make a difference in there.
@James21
Glad to hear you stayed till the end. Posted on another thread I can’t understand people leaving early. Even the excuse “I paid good money for these seats” doesn’t add up. If you paid money, why would you leave early and not get your moneys worth? Twats. The East Stand is cracking these days, on occasion it can be quiet but more often than not it’s a brilliant atmosphere. Was there for Chelsea champions league last season and we were as loud as the Stretford End, feeding off each other. One of the best atmospheres I’ll ever experience. And couldn’t agree more about 1/2 and 1/2 scarves. What is the point in draping yourself in the colours of another team? Fucking moronic.
Sparkz … “Owen, Berba, Diouf & Macheda aren’t considered for big matches by Fergie” but isn’t that largely because, until Hernandez burst onto the scene, we played 451 in those big matches, and therefore there was no space for a second striker? That’s my reading of what’s been happening:
Some years ago, SAF made a definite decision to play 451/433 in the CL and the bigger domestic matches. That left no room for a second striker. When CR7 was “hot” and just had to play, SAF achieved this by pushing Rooney wide and moving CR7 more central (though it was fluid).
After CR7 left, we reverted to a more strict 451/433. That again left no room for a second striker. (Of course, by then Berbatov was on board and his detractors have always said this shpwed Fergie “didn’t trust” him for the big games. I always thought that argument was silly. It amounted to a claim that SAF only played a stacked midfielder because he didn’t think of his second striker, and that seems absurd. But anyway, moving right along…)
Thus it stayed … until Hernandez came along. Then, once again, it became a situation where a guy was so hot he just couldn’t be left out, so what to do? Because by this time, it was also apparent that WR couldn’t be pushed out wide. And so we began to revert back to more of a 442/4411.
But I am not convinced that works against the stronger teams, because the one thing the stronger teams all have is a midfield that’s organized AND staffed for strength. And however you slice it up, a 442 (as we play it, with 2 of the middle 4 being wide) is always going to struggle against a set up like that.
Willie … I agree, totally. Especially with the comments about Hargreaves. I recall that when hargreaves was bought, SAF talked about his plan — which was basically this: he figured that if we had one really strong defensive midfielder, who had the energy, speed and positional nous to do the ork of two men, then we could into Europe with a two-man midfield, which would allow us to have two wingers and still have two strikers. That was definitely his plan (unfortunately, I no longer have the links to where he said it), and he was banking on Hargreaves to be that “special DM”.
What I am curious about is whether he might try to groom Jones into that role. Jones certainly has the energy and speed and defensive qualities to be able to do it. Whether he (or anyone) can develop the positional sense … that’s a tough one.
@Stateside, Exactly what I said to my dad today. Unless your mid-field two is named Roy Keane and Paul Scholes, you are never going to work with a two-man mid-field.
It is like you said – “he figured that if we had one really strong defensive midfielder, who had the energy, speed and positional nous to do the ork of two men, then we could into Europe with a two-man midfield, which would allow us to have two wingers and still have two strikers.”
In my history of watching United, the only person who has ever been that one-man is Roy Keane. I agree with you in that Jones could be groomed in to that role as many of us have been saying all summer. I felt at the time that Jones was the reason we did not go out to buy a defensive mid-fielder. But it is not going to happen overnight, and I don’t think Liverpool away is the best match to experiment with that setup. Jones should be given a go against the lower-placed teams, but we are not going to need a player playing in that role against a team like QPR, are we? And even if he plays in that role, he isn’t going to do as much work as he would against the top teams. So, how do we prepare Jones for such a role without making him look like a fish out of water against the top teams in Europe. I certainly think Jones has the footballing ability and brain to adapt to such a role without too much fuss, but, like the squad in general, it is a work in progress.
Man City (wow) what else can anyone else say. I follow United, but must admit we have not played as well as City did yesterday for a very ling time. I thunk United fans stubbenly will not accept we are not top dog anymore and dwell on history too much. City are stronger in every department and have quality back-up for each position. Glazers need to spend because City on this evidence will leave us standing. I think City will win this season’s Premiership easily, United need to spend on experience if we’ve any hope of catching them.
StatesideAussie – Too early yet mate. In time though, Jones could play in center mid. In the meantime, I hope for that elusive CM that most of us want! In a sense, we got lucky with the Keane signing. Robbo has just left the club for pastures new. Then in steps a certain Irish man to take over Robbo’s position. To get another Keano, or another Robson will be impossible. That doesn’t mean there’s no one out there who could come in and strengthen that midfield of ours. I’d put good money on the club searching the globe for such a midfielder. Whats Keano up to these days?
This has happened before, not quiet this bad or at home, and chances are this will at some point happen again.
Newcastle 5-0, Chealski 5-0, Liverpool 4-1
But who won the league and the double and played in European finals in those years?
The best trait of United is that they are always capable of learning and evolving. If it takes 6-1 at home for us to put 20 on the board could you live with that? I could.
And whats more, in years to come the younger players in our squad will carry with them a massive chip on their shoulder that they will forever want to redeem. If anything has been gained from this it is that the desire and hunger of our future champions has been reignited.
May will be Red
let them have their day in the sun . You win sod all in October. They deserved their win . But I don’t believe we will be that careless again . Now is the time to stand right behind the team. They need to feel our belief in them. Let city do that , if we win the league and the champions league this year no one will give a rats arse about Sunday
Player for player there was a huge difference in size yesterday. It had me thinking of other line ups but none matched up for size. They’re brutes but they’re pretty mobile and they left out De Jong.
Obviously they have Aguero, silva, johnson etc so you never know how they’re going to look.
The way we were playing early season against Barce, Arse, City etc , it seemed there was always a player nearby to lay the ball off too. Players were compact enough to play one touch. Yesterday our players kept their wide shape all the time, meaning we had to take a few touches before passing the ball and because the ball had further to travel, the opposition were onto our the receiver and able to use their weight. Who’s to know what the result would have been had we stayed 11v11, but it didn’t look like we were playing the same one-touch, fast paced, compact stuff of yester-month.
@Notorious- Just to clear up any confusion….it was 08/09 I was referring to (Ronaldo’s last season)…where we played Fletch-Carrick-Ando in a lot of big games. The 2 seasons since then, Scholes featured a fair bit (partly due to fitness problems for Fletch and Ando)
@Stateside- re Hargreaves- you’re correct, Fergie did say that. Unfortunately that didn’t work out….whether Jones is the answer, or one of the youngsters, only time will tell.
As for the Berba thing…tbh, in his first season (08/09), we went 4-4-2 in the majority of the big games to accomodate him. Generally him and Rooney played up front (with the troll on the bench). And he didn’t really shine. It was only for the last 6 weeks of that season, that Fergie decided to stack the midfield and put Ronaldo up front on his own (with Rooney out wide).
In any case, my comment was more referring to the CURRENT day situation….as in those 4 strikers (Berba, Owen, macheda, Diouf) aren’t in Fergie’s thoughts for the big games. Which is why I think playing 4-5-1 in big games won’t put too many noses out of joint, coz atm there’s only 3 strikers who he considers for big games anyway.
Going back to 4-5-1 means playing Rooney as a lone striker, which means he has to re-learn that position after spending the last 15 months playing behind the striker. Plus, what do you do with the other 6 strikers? Fergie has found himself in a dilemma here. Personally I don’t believe we have the tools for 4-5-1 anymore. It worked great during 09-10, but things are different now.
442 clearly isn’t working. Early results, papered over the cracks. Forget the big games, against Norwich we rode our luck. Personally, I’d love to see a 4231 formation.
DDG
Rafael Smalling Vidic Evra
Carrick Anderson
Nani Rooney Young
Hernandez
It’ll probably never happen, but at least we can dream on here.
@Costas- Thing is, I’m not suggesting it to be used on a constant basis. Just occasionally in the tough matches where we need an extra midfielder. The other 85% of the time we can do what we normally do, play 4-4-2.
And the re-learning thing I find nonsense mate lol. He’s a professional footballer who’s played in that role MANY times, he won’t have to re-learn anything.
In the Double winning season- he spent most of that season playing up front with Tevez. But in the big matches, Fergie generally packed the midfield and played Rooney up front on his own, and it worked fine. That’s basically what I’m saying…..play 2 up top for the majority of the games…..but when it comes to the crunch, go 4-5-1.
And with Cleverley, I actually think we’ve got the perfrect tools to play that way- coz we’ve got another player who can break from midfield and support the lone striker. That’s priceless when you’re playing a lone striker- midfield support.
I don’t think Rooney would have to learn to play as a lone striker again. He is, however, happiest playing in the hole. He didn’t like being shunted out to the left either, when Ronnie was up top. English players aren’t the most versatile lads. Gerrard complained when Mclaren stuck him on the right hand side of midfield for England lol. Shouldn’t be too much of a hassle for them imo.
Notorious @ 19:35: “As far as I’m aware you go to games so whilst I think the facts you apply to your logic regarding Berbatov is somewhat asinine there is some method to your madness.”
I live in Toronto so I don’t often get a chance to see TheLads in action except on the telly – we get ALL the matches on cable/satellite so I do watch closely. I’m glad to hear that you think that “there is some method to your madness”. Really, though, I just make the same point over and over again in response to other people who make a different point over and over again.
WillieRedNut @ 22:46: “It’ll probably never happen, but at least we can dream on here.”
Of course. That’s the point of blogging – sharing your dream with other, like-minded nut-bars like me.
WillieRedNut @ 22:53: “I don’t think Rooney would have to learn to play as a lone striker again. He is, however, happiest playing in the hole. He didn’t like being shunted out to the left either, when Ronnie was up top. English players aren’t the most versatile lads.”
Well, maybe his “ambition” can only be satisfied by being shifted around for the benefit of the team. That’s why I think that he’d be of the most value to the team in the formation you suggest – 4-2-3-1 – in the middle of the “3″. That wouldn’t be much of an adjustment/learning curve since he tends to freelance, regardless of what he’s told or what his position is. The real need in that formation is to find another “sitting two” to go along with Michael Carrick – all the other midfielders on UTD’s books are “all-’rounders” and not specialists.
AND, going back to one of your earlier comments about “the lad from Newcastle” – I’m also keen on Cheikh Tiote.
@Denton- “That’s why I think that he’d be of the most value to the team in the formation you suggest – 4-2-3-1 – in the middle of the “3″. That wouldn’t be much of an adjustment/learning curve since he tends to freelance, regardless of what he’s told or what his position is. The real need in that formation is to find another “sitting two” to go along with Michael Carrick – all the other midfielders on UTD’s books are “all-’rounders” and not specialists.”
Pretty much spot on, and it’s a way for us to not get overrun in midfield, yet still be able to play 2 strikers. 1 thing that would negate though is Cleverley.
I can’t see him being able to play as part of the double pivot (and that would restrict his game). In that formation, he can only really play in the middle of the “3″. Which means Rooney would have to go up top? Not his best position, but he can do a good job there, and the team would benefit.
Some of you suggesting we should play 4-5-1 because 4-4-2 does not ever seem to work? Please provide evidence and examples of when 4-4-2 other than Sunday has let us down? Because every game i can remember over the past 3 years that we have come up short and have not been inventive enough has been when we were playing 4-5-1. We don’t HAVE the midfield to play 4-5-1. Especially against a strong attacking/passing team like Barca, Bayern in europe and chelsea (of early last year). The problem is Carrick, and Fletcher both end up getting pushed too deep because they’ve both been adapted to become defensive minded players and Ando cannot control the offensive end of midfield by himself, he’s in all honesty too lazy and lax. This results usually is us not having as much of the possession as we would have had playing 4-4-2. We can get away with it in league when we’re playing teams like Wolves and Fulham because they have no real attacking prowess and lets face it United reserves could probably out posses most of the lower half of the table in our league. If we want to adopt a 4-5-1 system we need Rooney to start taking on shots from outside the box more often, holding on to the ball in the centre of the pitch more often, and playing 1-2′s with whoever the loan striker is. I think Rooney might be capable of doing this but I don’t think it’s his strength. Defensively we need him to get stuck in defensively when we lose the ball in order to win it back without loosing his head. OR else buy a midfielder who can play infront of a Fletcher Carrick team or Ando – Carrick.
4-4-2 works best for us when we take the action to the other team. United have to “Attack attack attack” the way we played, albeit a weakened Arsenal is the way to play for us. United make the best opportunities when we use the width: nani and young/valencia out wide, with our fullbacks galloping forward on the overlap. The problem is we have to keep the ball. This requires our CM’s to be able to win the ball back and to be more efficient with their passing to our winger’s forwards. Our crosses need to be better as well. And frankly, we have the players capable of it we just need them to all play to their full potential. Right now that is not happening.
I firmly object to the 4-5-1 argument. Not with the players we have at least. Perhaps if we bring in a new midfield or if Cleverly gets back and healthy. There might be an argument to be made to make it work. I could see playing Rooney or Berba upfront with Cleverly in the middle of Nani Valencia or Nani Young or young and park or even sticking chicha out on right wing. But, It would take some moulding and some time.
@Androidsummer- all really good points actually. But Sunday wasn’t the first time 4-4-2 let us down. It happened vs Arsenal at the Emirates last season….we had a set strategy for playing against them for the last few years (pack the midfield, lone striker, hit them on the break)….and Fergie changed it to go 4-4-2.
It also let us down vs Barca at Wembley. And if Chelsea had their shooting boots on a few weeks ago, would’ve been the same story there.
There’s a pattern developing. Arsenal, Barca, Chelsea, City……all teams that play narrow and centrally. All overran us in the middle of the park.
I’ll say it for the last time…..nobody’s suggesting a PERMANENT change to 4-5-1. Most games we stick with 4-4-2 and its not a problem. But games such as these we need to adapt, its as simple as that. I dunno why it seems to be an issue now…..from 07-10 we did it on a regular basis…played 4-4-2 against most sides, then packed the midfield in the big games.
Clearly not working currently, I should of said. Of course it has been fruitful for us in certain games. Chelsea at home last season, as an example. I feel for the big games, we’ve been found out. No other top side plays that formation. Fair play to the boss, for persisting with it. He ain’t no mug though. Watching from the sidelines, will give him food for thought. Also, what we’ve learned, and I’m sure the manager has learned, we can’t outscore all the top teams. Europe especially for me, you need to be astute in your tactics and formation. When both were both spot on, we won the premiership and the champions league.
And of course, luck!
Am I the only one that can’t see the problem is in the midfield anderson and tom r ok carrick and fletch R shit we need 2 class players simple. Also about time evans and showen his ture class and looked like a muppet another wes brown in the make utter useless
.
Only players I thought have nothing to beat themselves up about are De Gea, Ferdy and Fletch. Even then, Fletch wasn’t the greatest.
Evans, I believe needs to start all over again. Keep him for the small games and slowly build him up again. His decisions are rash and super costly, so best to keep him for the Swanseas and the QPRs where he can do the least amount of damage. Absolutely stupid red card and no faith in De Gea’s shotstopping…
Smalling was at fault for a few of the goals for not really picking up a man and/or letting his man escape him. Don’t get me wrong, he’s a classy defender on his day, just that he wasn’t on his A game, and it showed.
Evra really needs to step into the responsibility of being the step-in skipper when he has the armband. Even then, without captaincy, he should still be playing with the maturity of a player his age and not be playing as poorly as that.
Young and Nani simply weren’t creating on Sunday, their crosses were horrendous, but to be fair, they didn’t really have much to aim for in the box some of the time.
Ando really needs Cleverley back. I’m not saying that his dip in form is solely because of Tom’s injury, but it’s just that the style of play he’s had to adopt when playing alongside a not-as-consistent midfield partner who doesn’t necessarily compliment his style of play is hurting him. His passes were absolutely shocking and he wasn’t getting stuck in with Shitty’s midfielders.
Welbeck did a lot of running but didn’t have a lot of industry to any of it, really. Rooney had me scared once he flipped the “Spanish Bull” switch in his demeanor. I was praying to any and all deities that he wasn’t going to go and pull some dirty hack on the bitters that would’ve gotten him a red, because it would’ve been worse at 9.
Fergie: there’s no denying the man’s a genius, a league apart from any other manager, it’s just that this is another big game where he didn’t field the strongest side he could have. A defensive line that would’ve done the job would’ve had Rio and Vida in the middle flanked by Jones and Fabio. You needed energy and experience blended, as well as composure and tenacity, which those four would’ve offered. Silva’s run was a prime example of the actual back four’s lack of tenacity and Evans’s mistakes an example of his lack of composure and experience. Despite Ando’s early season form, I really think this would’ve been a better game for Carrick, despite my deep-seated frustration with the latter. Seeing Ando’s no-show on Sunday made me realize what Carrick brings to the side: composure, tackling and spot-on passing in the midfield, something that when coupled with Fletcher’s efforts would have made life difficult for Shitty.
In all fairness, it was an absolute shock that Fletcher’s goal was the only real time that we “tested” Hart and look at the outcome! We were too busy trying to tic-tac-toe our way around the bitters like in the Community shield, which they had now prepared for, to actually not stop and try something simple!
Anyways, that’s my venting done for a while!
God, I hope Fergie sets them up well for the return!
@bobbycharlie
Hi Mate. Sorry normally reply to fans who address my posts. Didn’t spot it.
East stand rocks. We along with the Stretford end find ourselves carrying the 2 sides North and South at many games, until we score. I fully understand you can’t sing for 90 mins but at least make an effort. also the sound doesn’t always carry very well and there are fans in these sections that do chant and sing. The Lads need us to lift them up against Sunderland next home game and show them we’re behind them and SAF 100%. so we’ll do our bit.
If I could afford to do away games I certainly would, the atmosphere is usually electric but the club insist I have to buy Champs league games , being self employed I can’t always make mid week games and they are hard to sell although that maybe changing, think I might have a regular buyer.
1 or 2 of us have mentioned lightly about these 1/2 matchday scarves to people wearing them but it falls on deaf ears. Its pathetic and just a money spinner for the mercinaries who sell them, but hay its easy to spot a gullible Tourist and you can’t blame them really.
Well bloody said mate, Bravo.
Agreed with all of that.
Sparkz @ 23:56: “There’s a pattern developing. Arsenal, Barca, Chelsea, City……all teams that play narrow and centrally. All overran us in the middle of the park.”
EXACTLY.
FEEL THAT JONNY EVANS JUST ISNT UP TO THE GRADE WE HAVE GIVEN THE LAD LONG ENOUGH WHICH FETCHES ME TO SOMEONE ELSE WHO HAS BEEN GIVEN LONG ENOUGH AND HASNT PUT AS MANY DECENT PERFORMANCES THAT OLD GIT ANDERSON HE LOOKS LABOURED AT BEST GREAT SONG THAT HE HAS HE IS NEVER GOING TO CUT IT AT UNITED THE DEFEAT WAS MADE EVEN WORSE BY THE FACT THAT I HAVNT HAD A PINT FOR 5 WEEKS WHICH WORKS WONDERS I WAS SURROUNDED BY THE BLUE BASTARDS IN THE JOHN ALKER THE BASTARDS ARE CRAWLING OUT FROM EVERYWHERE JUST LIKE OL BLUE EYES SAID”THESE LITTLE TIME BLUES” COULD BE THE WAKE UP CALL WE NEED OLD CLICHE
It hurts to admit, but I think there may have been far far too many tourists that may have watched the game. I’d be ashamed of myself with that kind of attitude so I think that should be sorted out first…starting at our respective homes. I’m an out-of-towner myself and this is the best time to test that. I do hope they’ll come back with their senses intact regardless of the result.
we are fuckin united!and now!now we fight back with everything we’ve got!come May, we will take it all and give them absolutely nuthin!
i love your assessment, utd runs in my blood, i have never walked away from utd, and that will never happen, i think evra needs competition, he’s been sloppy lately, we need modric’ n snijder to give our midfield a focus. cleverly would have been brilliant ith the ball on sunday than ando. come may 2012, shitty will mount a poster saying WHY ALWAYS THEM? UTD I SHALL DIE