Renowned football finance expert Keith Harris has offered a lifeline to Manchester United’s mounting debt by confirming he is trying to broker a takeover of the club.
United fan Harris has been labelled as football’s ‘Mr Fixit’ after being involved in several Premier League takeovers, such as welcoming Roman Abramovich to Chelsea and helping Eggert Magnusson take control of West Ham.
“We can lend our weight to doing something for the good of United and for the good of football – none of the takeovers that I have been involved in have involved any debt,” said Harris. “They’ve been takeovers by people who’ve wanted to be involved for reasons other than money.”
“A number of people have been to see me and I’ve had long chats with them,” he continued. “I know there are one or two people in senior positions in the financial services that have access to the capital. We don’t know if the Glazers can be made to listen, but there is serious intent on the part of people who have support in their hearts. The time feels right. The Glazers are playing with an icon of football, one of the most respected brands in the world, and it is in danger. Seventy five pence of every pound (fans) are spending is now going to the Galzers either for themselves or to pay debts.”
Harris wouldn’t name the people he has spoken to, referring to them only as the “Red knights”.
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You can only dream of it, sadly I believe the Glazers are to stupid to sell =o(
yeah Mikael. it depends totally on the Glazers. Still though money is their language an if Harris can get enough together then maybe something could happen. Not likely at the minute though.
Keith Harris is a true red.
Can`t see how this can be anything but positive. Any and all debate over this issue is welcome and necessary.
My mate is a Liverpool fan n as soon as he found about this story he said we are right lucky twats!! I hope this story is true n the glazers do sell but how on earth are the two biggest English clubs in so much fuckin debt !! Yellow n green time me thinks
I hear you knee and ankle. My other name just so happens to be big balls from the falls. What about ye? But we should all be optimistic cause according to his interview there seems to be a good bit of fan and involvement. You can watch it on BBC sport. So here’s hoping that we can have something like madrid or barca as far as ownership is concerned.
Keith Harris better not be representing that cunt Orville.
I hope this is the real deal, but i wont get my hopes up just yet. LUHG
I really really hope that it is true and a we get owners with a genuine fotball interest but as I said, the Glazers are probably to bottled to sell… but hope is the last thing that leaves the fool as we say in sweden ;o) I’m a fool in that case! =oD
I like Keith Harris. He say we fans need to do something to bring our club back. I really feel that the Glazer had been stubborn and stupid to keep hold of the club. It’s so obvious that they can’t and couldn’t OWN the club. So just sells to someone who can handle. If not, one day any bad happens, you can bet their head will be in danger.
on a different not, John Terry for a Knighthood! What a gent!
@ READ CAREFULLY,
Took the words out of my mouth, mate! lol! Can’t imagine a giant green duck would be any worse than a leprechaun though!
Interesting. A light at the end of the tunnel? Here’s hoping.
I wouldn’t hold my breath… there aren’t not too many people in the world with that kind of cash…
Btw the Green and yellow campaign is going well. More and more people wearing it. Imagine the whole stadium full of Green and yellow when our club represents red. This will send a very clear message to all fans and the owner! I feel some light at the end of the tunnel.
Good signs, but this is going to take a whole lot more than good intentions. Unfortunately, the fact that we are one of the biggest/most successful clubs in England/Europe will also ironically make it that much more difficult for us to get an ownership change now.
I hope he helps set up the Barcelona model at Manchester United.
That would be amazing!
1.2 million United fans paying £1000 to own a piece of the club.
I have my money ready and waiting.
We want our club back! WE’LL NEVER DIE….
Unless he can find a billionaIre to purchase the club lock, stock, and barrel, it’s just shifting debt from one owner to another. Not a solution.
The West Ham example isn’t exactly filling me with hope either.
SB
VERY doubtful of it happening..dont see how anyone is gonna part with the best part of £1 billion without incurring any debt..& so close to the bond issue i jus dont see the glazers selling
Did any1 read des kelly’s article in the mail the other day about the green and gold campagin, its starting to get noticed.
Finger crossed.
alpha_rs – 20 million fans donate 50 pounds to rescue the club.
Great news that Keith Harris is involved just hope he leaves Orville behind as the the green fluffy one loves to hog the limelight. Lol
if anyone saw football focus then there is hope , i think it would be more likely a consortium of rich people or through the fans , either way there looks to be progress in the last 24 hrs , hes a smart man and a fan , id like to know who the red knights are though ?
@willierednut
Yeah. I saw it. Awesome stuff. Btw Lee almost score against pool. Shyt. Almost make them lose!
@ read carefully & Redbeard
just seen your post, beat me to as well
keeping my finger crossed.
i have a few K pounds on standby.
LUHG.
Jandsdad, RCWI, Redbeard- What the hell are you on about?
@ the Boogeyman
google Keith Harris and Orville
Chris Smalling makes another error, allowing Agbonlahor to score against Fulham.
Oh dear.
I reckon if we could manage to dangle a carrot so these yank wanknuts would fuck off ie an extra £100m or 200m from there initial “investment”… what fuckin investment, then i reckon they wouldnt be able to refuse..
Or we could just blow the fuckers up… these are the times i wish Bin Laden was a united fan.
I was speaking to a mate of mine the other day and said wouldn’t it be great if the true celebrity reds could get together to set up a consortium to buy the club from them bastards. People like Mick Hucknell, Angus Deyton, James Nesbit to name but a few..people who would have the interests of the club at heart.
Wasn’t it Hangeland’s fault for the goal?
Anyone made a joke about Orville yet? He’s definitely supporting the green (feathers) and gold (beak) campaign.
Smalling looks a bit shit, doesn’t he?
Anyway, Keith Harris is fairly plainly a self-publicist. We’ll not hear of these Red Knights again. And the fact that he helped Magnusson broker the West Ham deal is hardly a good sign.
Get off Smalling’s back! Sir Alex AND Arsene Wenger saw something in him, trust them.
Keith Harris- Ventriloquist
Orville- His duck puppet
Got it, Jandsdad.
Angus Deayton and Mick Hucknall can not afford £1.2bn. I’m sure Deayton can scarcely afford his morning paper these days.
Chris smalling written of already, he got plenty of time.
@theboogeyman
yeah mate, tv was rubbish in the 80′s
To be fair to keith harris, how the fcuk did he know that iceland wud go bankrupt.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1247217/DES-KELLY-Manchester-United-fans-win-flying-colours.html
Read Des Kelly’s article on the Gold and Green campaign beginning to bite.
Then sing a chorus of Karma Chameleon…
…Red? Gold and Green!
Jandsdad- lol I wouldn’t know, being 15 and Indian and all.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/m/man_utd/8488910.stm
Really does sound great. Interesting him talking about the prospect of voting with our feet aswell
Great exposure on the BBC’s football focus of the green and gold campaign. The derby game was great for supporting the team and the protest! Green and Gold is making people realise the fans want a change and hopfully this can be it. Pompey at home next sat please wear green and gold!
I still don’t get something though, what happens next IF we do get the Glazers to sell?
I hope it works but there is very little chance of it happening. It wont happen, the Glazers have the total authority now so they will exploit the club further.
why, oh why did David Gill allow the takeover to happen?
OTred
Keith Harris is looking at arranging the funds through a number of interested parties and buy the club back from the Glaziers.
@ Claylotn Blackmore
Yeah but he did that before the economic downturn when Magnusson was the face of an Icelanic bank that wasn’t needing to be bailed out. I think the fact that he helped broker Abramovich’s takeover of Chavski is what we sould focus on.
Sounds nice but we HAVE to wait and see the identities of the potential buyers.
I heard the news about GHTT. I take it that he is having a civil union? Seeing as he’s the biggest queer on this site and he’s so thick I doubt he could spell his own name on a wedding cert. Is Costas the Greek faggot going to be a brides maid?
There are also issues with a consortium bid rather than a single owner. Look at Liverpool’s feuding owners. If this takeover happened and we had 5 or 6 owners each representing their own interests, it could be just as fucked.
Fact is, it’s a shit situation either way. There’s never a chance the fans will get the club back – just won’t happen, and the way British football has historically been set up means that no fans have ever really truly had control of the club like in the Bundesliga.
Danny welbeck scored for preston, themutsnuts you wat.
I really dont care if the people Keith Harris is getting to take over are only intrested in making money out of us to a degree, as long as they clear the debt and run the club properly and invest in the playing, coaching and behind the scenes staff, I would be happy for them to take money out of Utd, after all it would be a business to them so I would say fair enough.
Its the fucking wankers right now who are running the club into the ground and STILL taking fucking money out of the club that fuck me off!! how can you take money for ‘personal loans’ and ‘consultancy and advisory fees’ when you are fucking the business up!! I dont own a company but if I did and it was in debt I would put every fucking penny back into running it to turn it around and make it successful and debt free, not successful and bankrupt!!
muttsnutts
as ever stirring it up, i would be loathe to jump down your throat though as some of esteemed colleagues on here will no doubt do…
I know you and ghtt have had a chequered history and hatred is a two way street.
Im gonna stick my head out and stick my flag on muttsnutts side of the fence.
ghtt attracts stick as he lives his life on this forum, bit of decorum wouldnt go astray.
great goal from danny, they have said on soccer saturday!!
huh.. where has this mutsnutz geezer crawled out from?
keansmagichat
u never told me if u ment i was a twat or smalling the other day?! not that it actually matters was just wondering!!
@ Keanesmagichat
LOL no offence mate but it sounds very much like you wouldnt mind pushing mutsnuts poo back in for him. If he doesnt get on with GHTT or Costas thats his issue mate.
GREEN & GOLD MUST FUNDRAISER – MANCHESTER THIS SUNDAY – ARSENAL CHUBB CLUB – FREE G&G SCARF For those who can get into central Manchester on Sunday we’ll be holding a special GREEN & GOLD CAMPAIGN FUNDRAISING CHUBB CLUB. TV cameras and other media will be invited to attend. Get onto your mates now to get a group to come down for REDS ONLY unbeatable atmosphere. Venue: UPSTAIRS at Walkabout – 13 Quay St, MANCHESTER M3 3HN – after entering main bar turn left and go through doors to stairs.Time: Upstairs bar opens 2.30pm Tickets: £3 pay on door – and get a FREE GREEN & GOLD scarf. If you’ve already one the idea is to give it to someone who hasn’t got one – spread the GREEN & GOLD anti-Glazer virusDrinks: 25% off all drinks and food
Spread the word boys and girls
Gee
I am an impartial observer on this forum, but if ghtt lives his life through this blog then some people taking exception to it has to be expected, he is a big boy surely he can fight his own battles.
Im bi-partisan in most of these debates, but i could see that muttsnutts was garnering criticism and i just wanted to point out that there is two sides to every story, ghtt can put it about as well…
no offence taken, im not a shirt lifter and have never found men attractive and i have never pleasured myself while thinking about a man… so no i will leave his pooh to his toilet paper
I posted about Orville on a previous post. Stealing my thunder lads!!
What the fuck is going on here today? Who is this Muts Nuts? No fucking need lads. Come on. Fellow United fans falling out. Silly.
Scott – Can’t you ban all this racist Irish shite from here mate?
WHO IS MUTS NUTS anyone?
would it be a good thing if the red knights took over?were would we then get the money to buy big?i dont think the glaziers are that stupid not to invest in the team,if fergie had of spent alot of money in the summer we wouldnt be talkin about this..the glaziers have spent alot of money investing in the team(80 mill 3 year ago on hargo,ando nani,and scare face fuck) and i think they should be given a chance..they were wrote of since they took over but weve won 3 premier leagues,carling cup and champions league and got to another final,thats not bad..weve always been in debt since they took over its only cause the papers are writin shite cause they got fuck all else to do that everyone is listenin to them..would fergie stay if there was no money?i dont think so,lets just get behind the boys and fuck wat the papers say,because lets be honest if things did get bad which i believe they wont..1,the glaziers would sell and 2,every mother fucker out there would want to own united,thats a fact
Costas and GHTT are the only poo pushers around here. Enjoy the honeymoon…….
LOL – I was ACTUALLY eating a chocolate mousse when I started to read about ” pushing poo back in”
Put me right off it.
@ Keanesmagichat
Fair play, everyone is entitled to his or her opinion mate, unless they are scouse!! I take it GHTT has given you some shit at some point then?? otherwise surely with you being bi-partisan in most debates, you wouldnt place your flag on one side or the other of said fence. I have to say GHTT often makes me laugh with his comments as do many other regulars on this blog and if people take offence to what is being said, or coz people spend to much time on here, they should remember its just a blog.
@ RCWI
Thats comedy timing mate lol!!
Stop having a go at GHTT – Dont you think Wayne Bridge has had enough stick for one day.
…and dont start on Costas either, how many of you have your own chain of coffee bars ?
So if all this name calling has stopped I am going to try and finish my Chocolate mousse in peace.
No, cant do it. I can never eat chocolate mousse ever again without thinking of two men in green and gold scarves bumming each other.
Thanks a lot.
@ RCWI
No need for the image description mate, now none of us can eat choc mousse again LOL
@Gee
If I cant have Chocolate Mousse no other fucker can LOL
Just had a yoghurt – BIG dissappointment !
i think the takeover is not goin to happen as the glazers will not give up as to them its like the chicken with golden eggs……………
The problem is Keith Harris talks about ‘Super Rich INVESTORS’ and that’s an issue.
More than one owner is asking for trouble. Looks at Liverpool where so many of their issues come down from the two owners not agreeing on direction and then falling out
And then you have the issue in that Investors are almost certainly going to fall into one of the following groups
1) Glazer Type business people who want to make a profit at the end of the day. MUST and alot of the Fans will declare a win initially with this type of investor but in a few years the same issues will exist. Prices will rise, they will take alot of money out of the club and transfer budgets won’t be any higher
2) A status symbol type owner as we see at City and Chelsea. Much like City and Chelsea fans the fans will be happy at the start as the owners will buy players left right and centre BUT that’s worrying because these type of owners are flakey. They get over involved, buy players over the head of the manager and spend way too much money on transfers and wages until he gets bored and stops paying attention and if he quits the club leaves us in debt to them and with a business that isn’t sustainable. And while City and Chelsea may be able to say that they are ‘Virtually debt free’ all they really mean is the debts held by the owners. In reality if either pulled out they would no doubt expect the clubs to repay them the debt they ‘transfered’
Plus Keith Harris doesn’t fill me with much hope. Lets look at his history of the takeovers he has overseen
1)Chelsea
2)Aston Villa
3)Shinawatra’s take over of City
4)Eggert Magnússon takeover of West Ham
The Villa one was pretty well done, Chelseas I guess is successful but theres alot of negativity to it. CItys was a failure and West Hams was a complete and utter Farce.
And he is the guy responsible for trying to sell Newcastle and also for trying to sell Everton.
Oh and it seemed to me that Harris is encouraging Fans to not spend money at the club or attend matches to force a sale. Encouraging such things is imho selfish as it just seems he is after his cut.
And this is the problem, the Grass always seem Greener beforehand but its riddled with potholes and we shouldn’t delude ourselves that getting the Glazers out will improve things. We need to know exactly who they are, how many of them there are and their full plans before anyone should even consider backing such a move no matter how much you may personally hate the idea of debt being on the United Books
This made my day.
Fingers crossed.
What is even worse, we have Milan game in between.
wrong thread, sorry//
@ King Eric
it was too good to pass up on when the thread was there.
When i first read the name I genuinely thought of Keith Harris and Orville, was in stitches laughing at the thought of Keith and Orville in high level boardroom battles.
What was the name of the monkey?
The fans owning the club with serious financial backers is the best scenario. United could easily run on a profit even with a large transfer budget each season (think £50m a season).
After the bond issue the Glazer’s can sit tight for a while. The only thing, short of assination, that is going to change their minds is an empty stadium. This has always been the problem and with the compulsory cup scheme we can’t even make a point for the cup games. I really believe that if a consortium could guarantee that if we don’t renew our season tickets that they will honour our tickets as soon as they get rid of the Glazer’s more would be prepared to make the ulimate sacrifice. Also it would prevent the day trippers taking our hard earned seats. Just a thought.
IM NOT SURE THAT ANY NEWS IS GOOD NEWS BUT THIS THING IS STARTING TO GET SOME MOMENTUM
I agree with you Tom.. the Glazers aren’t going to sell as they know there is more money to be made/taken. The only way they’d consider sellling would be if fans started boycotting games and stop buying anything that’s officially Utd related.
“A spokesman for the Glazer family insisted they have no interest in selling.”
I wish these avaricious cunts would just fuck off. Fans of the club despise them, they aren’t making as much as they could have with more sound investments, and we’ve certainly never appreciated their presence. Their ownership defies logic.
The Glazers will sell if the offer is right. Why? Because their primary interest is money. People don’t get that rich by being sentimental about their investments. Also, they know they’re in trouble. The recent bond issue offers only temporary relief. It keeps the vultures at bay for a while, but they’re still circling. They’ve got the smell of meat in their nostrils now…
If they sell, it would be interesting to see what replaces them. It isn’t just about finance. It’s also about governance and interference. I want someone who’s finances are sound. But I also want someone who will leave the football decisions to those who understand them. Who wants an owner who dictates which players to buy, who faxes teamsheets to the “manager” on game day (or any other day), who demands instant results?
As for the Barca model, that isn’t perfect either. Here they are with a young and enormously successful coach, a man who started at the club as a ballboy, who came up through the ranks as a player, played his entire career there and has now led them to astonishing success as a coach … and yet: Pep G has agreed to sign a contract extension for only 1 year, even that is conditional on first waiting to see who wins the club’s post-season presidential election; and he openly admits he doesn’t see Barca as a long term gig. Why? Because the internal politics are rampant, and that’s the sort of thing that happens when you have elected presidents.
This is a good thing imo -what could be worse than starting ever season at minus £80 million (70 of which is the INTEREST on the debt -not paying it down -10 of which goes to The Glazers themselves as “consultantcy fees”)
What turned if for me was when the penny dropped that the debt was not going down -I naively assumed the bastards were paying it off. And that’s in the context of good tv money -3 premierships in a row – two European finals and 75,000 paying fans at O.T -plus all the sponsorship deals -and the merchandise -Even then the bastards could not bring down the debt so what hope during a fallow period??
Harris said that the ppl interested were in The City -and there were several of them -so it’s not a case of one person stumping up a billion.
At the very least -this would be a good “half-way house” move -before we could move to the Barca model and own the club ourselves. And the fact that the story is on BBC -Reuters etc -put’s in way beyond the “idle gossip” level.
In the meantime -Newton Heath colours are the way we fans should go -and lets drop the “death threats” ffs. LHUG!!!!!
Anything that removes the cancer that is the Glazers from Manchester United is very welcome.
Frying pan. Fire.
Let’s say the ventriloquist can get oh, I don’t know, 5 or 6 egos, sorry Red Knights, to cough £150-200m, plus a high volume of peanuts from the ‘supporters’ for a whiff of authenticity. Back of the net, game on and let’s be ‘avin you – at least we don’t have to dress like Norwich City anymore.
Plain sailing all the way too, because everyone knows that co-owned clubs, run smoothly and no-one ever ends up falling out, paralysing the club in the process. We’re all on the same side, right. The club is bigger than everyone.
And as long as Harris is following the same “Mr Fixit” style as he did when advising the soon to be bankrupt Icelandic’s take over at West Ham, we cannot go wrong. Look they’ve had to sell to the porn brothers to keep the club afloat. Forever blowing bubbles. Can’t be bad.
So onto the Red Knight(on)s, step forward so I can see your credentials. And please get here fast, can’t you see the club is on it’s arse!?
Wakey – are you some pro glazer muppet all you seem to do when it comes to this subject is defend the bastards, kieth harris 2 of those takeovers you have mentioned have propably put these clubs on the map. united desperatly need a dark knight to save the damn club, add the fact kieth is a united fan he is looking for the best interest of the club.
LUHG
glazers wont be made to listen. they are ignorant as already proven by their actions in the last month or two, they are only looking out for themselves rather then the club which they own which just happens to be the biggest club in the world. to be quite honest there should be rules put in place to prevent such abuse in the future
As much as we hate the Glazers, it would not be much different if somebody bought the club without incurring debt. Then they would be using their own money and they would want a return on that money instead. The situation would be the same – United has to produce a profit to service the capital invested. The difference is if you have silly money involved (Abu Dhabi, Abramovich, the virus etc.) where the issue is more to buy fame (and perhaps launder money) than to get an economic return.
Myself I like the fact that United is a business and have to produce BOTH trophies and financial returns. And I admire Fergie/Gill as the best management pair in the football business. At least the Glazers stay away from all footballing decisions – and they have recently been explicit about the Ronaldo money being allocated for the transfer kitty.
All in all the bonds issue has lowered the amount of interest on the debt which should lower the pressure a bit. There is no emergency for United but I think the best ownership model would be as a plc – maximum openness and ability for anybody, including fans, to be owners.
ALL I WILL SAY IS ….WOULD YOU GIVE UP 20 MILL A YEAR………
THEM GLAZIERS WONT. FUCKING ROBBER BARONS
Sunny – is your head up your ass things are bad not great interst rates are at 40 plus million, the best ownership of united is fans ownership where no snakes can touch the club because the club structure barca style blocks that. its the ultimate dream the united fans ownership against the rest of the money greed snakes.
Pep signed for 1 year becaues lets be honest … he’s done it all and only few people can and want to bear the strain of carrying a big club like barca.
JandSdad- Can’t remember the name of the monkey! I can picture him though.
If this comes to light it’s fantastic but as has been said before it’s up to the glaziers to make the right move really.
What with this stick been said on this , I haven’t been here all day and I’m getting stick for been Irish again which I find funny cause that’s never been a fctor in anything I’ve ever said and my world view as in there’s no countrys. And as for me fucking costas. I’m glad people read comments on there blog and get there own little mental images going. Gays are alright in my book. So alls welcome to the wedding vagas next summer come along
Gotta hate tiny tears – 2 things that will make my day
the glazers all suffer a horrible death and I piss on their grave
the fans own united
not even success of the club could cure my satisfaction of the glazer clans death
and the death of the glazers was no joke
Rooney the new king
succes is a used to be a bonus been a manchester united fan
its the pride respect and class built into this club and that the club is built on
its been bankrupt, relegated lossing a team bombing our ground and not allowing that to stop the club. its the pride in that that makes me so proud to watch my daughter watch united and cheer for Rooney.
winning trophys used to be a bonus
but because of what these men have done to the club
winning trophys and more importantly prize money keeps the club afloat
on a veru serious note
@King Eric
the monkey was called cuddles
gotta hate – That’s it. I thought it was that. Cheers.
Gotta hate tiny tears – yes its great for the success but the rewarding part of having the success is the cash goes into the playing squad to make the side better and old trafford getting more seats, and tickets remaining cheap enough for the fans. it is give and take for me and I am sorry this regime owning united are taking more than giving, thats why I say a fans ownership of united gives long term stability we dont have, and some clowns no matter how much money they have turning the club into a joke, and the fans have the power barcelona fans have a voice and it gives united that true tag the peoples club.
People seem to be forgetting one key thing about the so-called “Red Knights” and that is MUST approached them. Would MUST approach people that they thought were only in it for the sake of making a quick buck?
I can imagine that whoever they are the “Red Knights” will simply put things back to the way it used to be when we were a PLC. Each of them holding some shares in the ownership of United and taking their dividends but not loading the club up with their debts.
I watched Keith Hill’s interview on BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/football_focus/8489087.stm) and I think he’s ‘for real’ and I want this to happen
LUHG. Green and Gold…
what it seems to me we are getting success with no reward and thats my huge problem that PISSES ME OFF, we win the premiership 3 in a row world club cup and carling cup success. and what happens we have a weaker squad tickets are more dear our profits wiped out, and they go so low they have old trafford and carrington has possibly up for sale. add our own manager wont buy anyone, because they are not value for money. When in normal times when you add up the gate money tv money the players sold in the trophys won the past phew years 50 million should be peanuts but we know the reasons right. we could have spent 50 million and still have a fortune left over but that luxery is long gone.
Paul H …great comments. History proves that “emotion moves the masses” and Harris clearly sees an opportunity to good to pass.
LU – IFIT.
Dave Mack – thank you. There are a small number of us that are prepared to add some balance to this debate, risking being flamed in a barrage of deeply personal and foul language.
I just wish folks weren’t so naive and gullible. No-one and I mean no-one is altruistic on this scale. Businessmen are rarely real fans and when they are (Mike Ashley anyone?) emotion usually clouds the ability for good decision making.
A couple of weeks ago, some fans were being exploited by the tabloids. Now it’s Keith Harris. And so it goes.
The club have released a statement today that reads as follows:
“Manchester United is the most profitable football club in the world.
Last year, on a record turnover of £278m, the club made a record cash profit of £91m. Interest payments were £41m and wages accounted for less than half of the turnover.
The recent bond issue has been very successful and provides the club with certainty in its interest payments, as well as great flexibility with the removal of bank covenants.
The cash from the sale of Cristiano Ronaldo is available for Sir Alex to spend and it will be spent on players who are available for purchase and who the manager thinks can improve the squad, not to prove to pundits that it exists.”
So there you have it. Do we need to chuck the Ronaldo proceeds down the toilet, just to prove that we had it? When the manager says that he trusts in the squad of players we have now and doesn’t see value in the market right now, do we doubt him? Well apparently some of you do.
And the very last thing I’m going to get drawn into, is a debate with anyone who lusts for the death of fellow human beings, or who gets off on the thought of desecrating graves. Have you shared details of your sickness with your family, or discussed it in confidence with your GP? Seriously, I would do so asap. Because you’re clearly not very well.
@rooney the new king
I’m not ‘Pro Glazer’ and haven’t really defended them. What I am is Pro United and I’m sick of watching the reactionary idealists at MUST and on many of these blogs help weaken the club without really engaging their Brains.
We need to be realistic and realise No-one is going to throw billions at the club because they are a fan alone, they will require a return be it in the form of inflated ego or in the terms of profit. And the last thing I want to see is our club to become a souless entity where the sugar daddy owner acts like a kid given free reign in a toyshop as that makes us into a classless outfit like Real, Chelsea or City that goes against EVERYTHING the clubs about
As Paul H said we are looking at a “Frying pan. Fire” situation. If these people take over all we would be doing is transferring our debt off the clubs books and onto their books and they ARE going to demand the club pays that back out of the profits that are made. I know many of you seem to think anything has to be better than the Glazers but the problem is you aren’t thinking about it logically, you are just letting the idea of the debt thats shown on the books cloud your judgement.
Oh and on the 2 of 4 of those he oversaw being successful, thats only 50% success rate or if you include the 2 he was unable to get the deals to go through a 33% success rate. And even the successes are slightly debatable
- Chelsea. Sure its made Chelsea a challenger due to the money and perhaps its a step up from Ken Bates but would you be happy with Roman being owner of United with the antics he has pulled. I mean signing players over the Managers head, interfering with the running of the team (both off his own back and in conjunction with the team Captain) and who sacks managers just because they don’t agree with him. Oh and who despite moving Chelseas debts to himself will still find the clubs accounts showing a massive loss next season
- Villa. Lerner isn’t a bad owner but he is also a ‘small scale’ owner. He did saddle Villa with £70mill of debt in the form of a loan from the Lerner Foundation and he has required O’Neil to sell alot of players to finance the incoming players hence the issue they have had in past seasons of not having the squad size to compete. Mind you with the EPL squad rules next season Lerner may actually land on his feet without having to ‘think bigger’. A larger thinking Lerner is maybe what we need but then a Larger thinking Lerner would actually be closer to the Glazer mould
And seriously can you get realistic about United being run in a socios setup. The fans really don’t have ownership of the club, the fans of Barca and Real bring in around £20mill a season, money which basically gets uses to subside tickets. What that gets them is the chance to vote in the presidential elections. However in most cases these elections end up being a 1 horse race. To win an election all you need to do is secure the most money and make the most appealing claims, usually what players you will bring in. Presidential Candidates have to put up a certain amount of money to be on the Ballot so they make their claims before officially entering, work out if they have a chance and when they realise someone else will win pull out before committing the money. This usually leaves one person and that person then gets to run the club and make any decisions on the club that they wish for the next couple of years. I would also add that in the case of Real and Barca they get massive help from the local and national governments as well as interest free loans from the local and national banks (As I said before Santander funded Reals transfer spree this summer. The 200mill they spent will never be repaid to Santander and they won’t even be asked to do so).
Such ownership really wouldn’t work in the UK and even if it could be is it really any good. Season Ticket owners would end up having to pay more at the end of the day for their tickets (Tickets may be cheaper but you have your membership fee to pay thats subsiding it) and you would then be giving a ‘dictator’ free reign to screw the club up both on and off the field for 2 years before electing the next guy
At the end of the day I don’t care too much about who owns the club as long as the owners don’t damage the team (Which if you ignore the scare stories the Glazers haven’t done anything damaging to it). If someone wants to buy the club off the Glazers then I’m fine with it but i’m not fine with fan campaigns built on lies and a lack of understanding that are just going to weaken the club and just bring about owners who not only bring the same problems, but make them worse and bring new problems while weakening many of the advantages
Wakey – sorry you realy have your head up your ass. if you think MUST are lying how much are the glazers paying you. MUST have done their research this is not brain dead pationate fans views, these are well structured views fans ownership in UK can work, and that structure is far better for stability of the club than some freaks from tampa that can pile any kind of debt it wishes. look how it works in germany is well thats how clubs should be structured, when I visted barcelona FC how they done things really did show me WOW this is exactly how united should be structured just has barcelona are done where the fans are the club.
@rooney the new king
The ONLY money the Glazers have currently taken out of the club are
£10million in Management Fees
£10million in Loans
The £10million in management fees is LESS than the same fees were over the last 5 years of the PLC. And the £10mill in loans is money that will be coming back into the club.
And you bring up Germany. In Germany Fans own 51% of each club by law. However over the last 15 years the German league has fallen significantly in how attractive it is and the quality of football played and the structure of the clubs has made it hard for them to compete for players. As such you will actually find that the teams in Germany (as well as other top German teams in other sports) actually want the law changed so they can become competitive again.
And if Fan ownership is so good why is it that we don’t see top class teams being owned by the Fans. If we ignore Germany where the law forces it we have 3 world famous sides who are fan owned. These are
Football
————–
Real Madrid
Barcelona
American Football
————————
Green Bay Packers
As I have already mentioned Real and Barca aren’t even real fan ownerships. Its more a ‘tradition’ thing than anything of real power these days. The Packers are about the only 100% Fan owned sports team of any stature
@United4eva
MUST though have shown that they either don’t particular understand the situation or just don’t want to. I suspect that if we had owners who did what has been done at City, Villa and Chelsea where they are ‘virtually debt free’ but actually owe their owners tens if not hundreds of millions in loans MUST would feel its a better situation when its really not all that different. Also sometimes MUST come across as having these idealistic agendas which aren’t viable and as long as they believe they are doing things to make them reality they are happy.
On the ‘Red Knights’ making the club a PLC again. Thats a step back, we are better as a a private company as it makes it easier to operate and as a PLC all that would happen is in a few years someone else would buy the club, probally with a leveraged buy out. Also Dividend payments are ultimatly not cheap so you are just swaping the intreest payments going out of the club for dividend payments. Also the PLC had Management fees on their books that actually exceeded the 2million the Glazers have paid out each year.
@rooney the new king
The club accounts showed a 90million profit in the last accounting period. Thats over double the profits on the accounts during our time as a PLC. These accounts didn’t include the Ronaldo sale. Yes some of that increase is down to better TV deals BUT the Glazers have streamlined the business and brought in alot of revenue streams that the PLC hadn’t considered. So spending £50million would have been an issue under the PLC regime. Last summer was a transfer market where City were throwing their cash around and which Real had just had a Presidential election and so big promises had to be kept. You are also forgetting that ontop of £50mill spent on transfers you have the wages for the players you sign, agent fees, signing bonuses for the players, accounting and admin costs which would add a minimum of 8-10million on top of that as well.
Wakey – thats the funniest thing of the day united are in better hands now than a PLC what planet are you on. tell me barca fans have no voice how come 10 years ago their stance help bring down a regime at barca that almost destroyed the club, you should live up to your name and wake up and realise the time is now for the club to be changing hands. and to keep justifying these comments about how much money being made which is now spent on bank fees interest payments etc. United have to pay 40 million plus interest payments and the whole glazer structure is just like the man who built his house on sand sooner or later the tide will come in it is just a matter of time. yes PLC took money out of the club but the club was not in 700 million plus of debt, and the clubs model has a PLC was not based on having to finish in a top 4.
MUST I have had issues with how their views are take down the glazers are not effective enough but their protests and stance shows the passionate fans that united have that we want these freaks out and they know what the glazers have done to united is a complete disgrace, so what do you want where we did not have fans groups like MUST? we have heard kieth harris gab marcotti henry winter great football experts who understand how clubs should be structured and they both say the glazers are a disgrace.
the reason why a fans ownership is the best option is united cannot be taken over by any bastards in ther future our debts will be easily monitered, there is far greater benifits. I will say again for you to sit there and say the glazer regime has been better for united than the PLC regime is a complete joke, to make that comment you must like the glazers. the success has been a great way for them to paper over the cracks.
@Wakey
You forgot about the 270m they roughly took out to pay banks and hedge fund managers
You forgot about the 54m they took to refinance the bond
Sorry mate – I understand your point where business can be run in debt point – however not to an extent where it now cannot be controlled. It is running alongside the profit – how long till it overtakes it – what then?
As for Bonds – debt to pay off debt debt just a little bit more easier to handle – still debt though – since the economies of this world are not guaranteed – what if we have another recession?
What about a fan based takeover for the sake of a takeover with no chance of selling out and no chance of financial gain – and why not – why can’t fans be that passionate to do that? And then the club runs itself with no interference from the fans – you can have a club/fan charter.
Wakey – United have a chairman – daddy Glazer – replace him with us with the plan I have just talked to you about. The chairmen are Joel and Avram Glazer – since all we would want is the best for the club we wouldn’t need a chairman – Gill does that job superbly. The rest of the Glazer’s are non execs – United are basically self operating without them because there job is to make money for themselves – why can’t we be bold enough to come up with something that can just make money for the club – isn’t that what we all want?
“£20million is all the Glazers have taken out of United.” Funniest thing I’ve read all day – what a stupid twat.
Maybe they have already bought Into the bonds which technically sees them as having some albeit minor status probably wishful thinking though
Guys, we need to put a stop on the debt. I know the Glazer had given us plenty to spend this few seasons but if they were to give us budget to buy players, will our debt go lower??? No. They buy they owe more debt. If we want to clear the debt, we can’t spend cause the Glazer had no money.
Faithful reds will want them to go. Imagine the debt going beyond 1billion? With Glazer as our owner, the debt will not be gone!
The Glazers are on their last legs.
The big sharks are circling waiting to move in for the kill.
Remember 12 months ago an Arab consortium were chasing Liverpool? Where are they now? They’re waiting like the other sharks for the Glazers to go belly up.
When will that be?
When UTD fail to qualify for the CL in 2012/13 by having too much debt in season 2011/12. That’s only 18 months away.
Once that happens the Glazers can knock 25% off the value of the club.
Now the Glazers must know that will happen.
I expect them gone in the summer.
And good riddance.
People on here need to chill out a bit! Everyone is entitled to their opinion with out the need to get personal? The one thing we truly don’t know is the money have we spend as SAF has not come out and said anything other than we have cash to spend!
The one thing we do know no matter how much we trust SAF is the debt levels and long term maturity of the bonds are not sustainable! This would be the perfect time for Glaziers to sell as they have secured the bonds and could make a huge profit!
The thing that annoys me most is the transparancy which is zero as no one from the club either Glazier or the sell out Gill speaks to the fans!
I say trust in MUST who believe in getting the club back from these parasites!
Any party wanting to be successful in persuading the Glazer family to sell, will have to come up with an offer they can’t refuse. In other words a number that exceeds the ‘real’ value of the club today and in the process gives them a 50-100% return on their investment. Whoever does this will be kissing goodbye to a whole lot of equity from day one, which of course is not what real businessmen do.
If someone randomly approached me asking to buy my house (which isn’t for sale) they wouldn’t get very far waving a cheque for the rough Market value. Come back with double what it’s really worth and it’s a case of where do I sign?
So in our hypothetical scenario we have the red knights paying over the odds to solve a problem that doesn’t exist, or to scratch the emotional itch that is some fans’ deep rooted resentment of authority, capitalism and possibily Americans. Not exactly a new phenomenon.
I can’t wait to see these red Knightons. Why keep them under wraps if they exist?
@rooney the new king
You are the one who needs to wake up and educate yourself. You can sit around spouting the lies that you and others want to perpatrate due to being too stupid to understand whats Fact and Fiction but all you are doing is doing more damage to the club than the Glazers are by buying into the ABU media campaign to destabalise the club.
I mean seriously take the ‘Debt’ off the table for the minute and lets treat the cost to service the debt as a nameless entry on the accounts. The figure is around £41mill a season. we then need to add on the Management fees which are £2million a season. So we have a £42million outgoing on the accounts.
What was the outgoing on the PLC’s accounts though. With a turnover that was less than half the current turnover the account showed dividends of £20million a season and I’m led to believe from someone in the know that the Management and Admin fees averaged £5mill a season. So thats an outgoing of £25million on the PLC’s accounts.
Now £17mill difference seems a fair bit however lets take into account that the glazers have more than doubled both turnover and profit so dividends would be higher, perhaps as much as double so infact we would be in the exact same position. Oh and I haven’t accounted either for the fact that as a PLC every single transfer has to be run by shareholders and the exact finances are known which allows us to be gazzumped and sees us pay a greater amount in ‘United Tax’ so transfers are harder and more expensive as a PLC.
The only difference really between the two forms is the way that the overall debt figure is represented differently on the current accounts. I would also add again that clubs that proudly claim they are debt free (City, Chelsea and Villa) all have debts on their accounts in the form of loans from their owners which need paid back (And of the 3 only Villa have anything coming close to a sustainable business model. City and Chelsea will find themselves back in ‘debt’ next season unless their owners give them another loan. Villa don’t turn a fantastic profit and most of thats down to O’Neil being good in the transfer market and having sold players to buy new players)
As for the club not being based on having to finish in the top4 as a PLC. I’m not sure thats completly true. The majority of the shares were owned by business men looking for profit and that means the club needs to turn a profit. And as a club our costs made up a much larger percentage of the turnover as a PLC so missing out on top4 prize money or Champions League entry would have been as much of a problem as it would be now. I don’t actually think missing out on a top4 position mind you would cripple the club either now or as a PLC. It obviously wouldn’t be great but we would need a more substained dip, the kind of dip that would cause any club with the squad we have to have problems to be a complete disaster.
As for the so called experts that you are talking about. Marcotti and Winter are Football Journalists. Would you goto one of them for advise on your finances? Ofc you wouldn’t. Harris does seem a bit of a publisity whore who only cares about money rather than Football, perhaps with United its different BUT the way he seems to recommend that we ruin the club by not spending money on it or attending matches does suggest he just wants the publicity and his cut of a deal if its forced through. Theres plenty of people in Financial circles used to dealing with large companies who consider United to be a well run and solid company
On the Barca thing. Sure Gaspart was a dishwater as President and the Fans weren’t happy BUT when he stepped down he was in the 4th year of a 5 year term. He did ALOT of damage and he seemed to operate a revolving door policy when it came to the manager BUT ultimately it was the boards concerns and Gaspart trying to save Face by quitting before being beaten in the next election rather than the fans
I have been dreading the day that the club goes bankrupt under these carpet bagging morons from accross the sea.
Now i see a potential life line, what id like to see personally is these so called REDKNIGHTS coming forward so we can judge for ourselves that there is a stable future in their hands.
I personally wouldnt want them to provide all the finance for the buy out, I would like them to provide around 60 to 70%, giving fellow reds like myself a chance to once again own a piece ( no matter how small) of this amazing football club.
I am an average guy, but I could scrape together a few hundred quid,
( every penny helps so im told) I would like to invest, when MUST tells me the time is right, I for one will put my money were my mouth is.
There a thousands of reds in this country alone, never mind in the world, and im sure a large proportion would jump at the chance of a little piece of history.
First things first though, we need to know who we are dealing with, and what their plans are for united.
AS for the gimp and his sons, am certain enough action by reds world wide, refusing to buy merchandise, and putting pressure on sponsers, even they will realise, its better to cut and run.
Maybe if every thing goes ok, and the potential new owner are agreeable, in an effort to force Glazers hand, all season ticket holder could refuse to renew their tickets. the glazer would realise they face making a real loss and would sell.
I know some season ticket holder would then say… but what about my losing out..
Well lets face it, there are not 50,000 people out there waiting to take on season tickets, and when the new owners do take over, they could be have a pre agreement to re instate all season ticket holders, who joined the campaign
LUHG
i wondered how long it would take
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opinion/columnists/the-mole/Manchester-United-plan-to-cash-in-on-fan-fury-with-their-own-official-green-and-gold-merchandise-The-Mole-Column-article306697.html
@MG
I didn’t forget the 270million because thats the Interest fees which aren’t really them taking money out. Its a normal business transaction which as I pointed out to “rooney the new king” based on the figures for the PLC and accounting for the increased turnover would have been in the same ballpark in dividend payments.
As for the 54mill, I did say up until the bond issue I believe. However such costs should be expected in any business as you should be fluid enough to make changes when needed but these will have costs attached. They do it because it may cost some money initially but it saves money in the long run. And you do realise with your idea you would also have to draw figures like that from the club to refinance and restructure the club.
As for the debt overtaking the profit. You do realise you are talking about a MAJOR swing in fortunes don’t you. Last season we made 90 Million in profit in an accounting year that included spending £30mill on Berbatov
And again your idea is Pie om the sky. Barca have 170,000 fans who pay to own the club. They pay around £135 a year which generates 22million a season. To buy the club and pay off the Bonds you would need to raise 1000% more than that in the first year alone. And with your setup you would need to vastly exceed that each year as you wouldn’t be electing a president who can do what he likes as he has put up hundreds of millions themselves. Alot of Match going fans are unhappy with the ticket prices already, can they really afford to to pay hundreds of punds more each year ontop of that? Ofc like at Barca and Real this money could be used to subsidise Match Tickets but they would still be paying the same or more at the end of the day.
That £270m was money that if the glazers wernt in power we would have had to spend on the club. And when u examine the bond prospectus, and the way they have dealt with the bond issue moneys (allowing it to potentially be paid out in dividneds to themselves) you can see that the glazers are setting up the club to a position where they, if they wanted, could completely asset strip us. Under the Bank loans this wouldnt have been possible, but under the terms of the bond agreements they can now sell carrington, OT etc, have £400m in bond money which they can take out of the club in the future, as well as a £70m one off payment they can take.
of course this is not saying they WILL do all this, but they could, and i know for one i dont want the prospect of this hanging over my club.
Gill has said the club will not sell rooney under any circumstance – but if the glazers say, well actually we’ll take the £80m, then there isnt anything that Gill or Fergie can do!
Every pound spent on the club only 25p is staying within the club, its a disgrace!
LUHG
@burybigred
The clubs valued at around £1.2billion. As Paul H mentioned to make it worth selling the Glazers would need an offer between 50-100% of the market value so that puts the sale Value at a minimum of 1.8billion. That means if you want any owners to only own 70 of the club you would be looking at fans having to stump up £500million. Thats more than you and MG actually realise.
And thats before we deal with the Bond issue. It may be included in the purchase price but the chances are the purchase price would be for the club as it is so then another 500million would need to be found which to keep the split is another 100mill needed from Fans
And refusing to buy merchanise or renew season tickets is just cutting our noses off to spite our faces. If we destroy the club finacially this is when the Glazers will asset strip and then run because it would be losing them money, risking all their other investments and pushing the clubs value below their purchase price. Again this is just what the ABU media wants us to do because thats then the end of Manchester United
Wakey -
You seem to forget the Glazers only put in around £200m of their own money.
So if the club was bought for £1.2 billion, £750m approx would go to paying off the debts, leaving around £450m for the Glazers to walk away with, so aound a 125% profit for them – more than the 50-100% you claim would be needed to make them sell.
LUHG
@pondave
Except your assumption that the £270million is money that could be spent by the club is wrong. If its not going out as Interest then than money is going out things like dividends instead.
@pondave
The amount they put up themselves (which is actually more than the 200k as the PIK loans need added to that) doesn’t matter. What you are saying is like United selling Rooney for 40mill when his market rate is much higher just because it is more than we bought him for.
Or for example you buying a lottery ticket which wins 7mill and then you accepting 500k off me for the ticket.
Well it’s a moot point now anyway. The statement from David Gill, only serves to further reassure me that we are in a solid position, with informed and supportive owners who are in it for the long haul.
The Red Knightons can continue to play fantasy football, because it doesn’t look like they are going to get their hands on Manchester United.
So let’s get back to the football, but before we do, take the time to digest the following.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/m/man_utd/8489038.stm
So that’s SAF and Gill telling certain fans in no uncertain terms that their actions are counterproductive. Will they listen? Unlikely. These people detest authority and will not be told what to do. Besides, having spent a fiver on a new scarf, you need to get your money’s worth. LOL.
@pondave
Oh and
“of course this is not saying they WILL do all this, but they could, and i know for one i dont want the prospect of this hanging over my club.”
The problem is whoever owns the club these possibilities exist. They exist for every football club and every business has the possibility of selling assets off.
If by some miraculous ways MG’s fan ownership thing came about these things would exist, as a PLC they would exist and any so called “Red Knights” buying the club it would exist. We can’t use these worst case possibilities against the Glazers as its the same for everyone
“Every pound spent on the club only 25p is staying within the club, its a disgrace!”
The Turnover/Profit ration hasn’t really changed that much under the Glazers than under the PLC. Infact I believe I’m right in saying we make a better Turnover/profit ratio now than before
“Gill has said the club will not sell rooney under any circumstance – but if the glazers say, well actually we’ll take the £80m, then there isnt anything that Gill or Fergie can do!”
The Bond Brochure though clearly states that investing in keeping the best players at the club and bringing other top players in. Unless Fergie wanted to or Rooney really wanted to go then I don’t think they would cash in on Rooney as he is vital for their business plans
@Paul H
They won’t listen because while we have people like MG saying he supports Gill and Fergie enough that his ‘Fan ownership’ would have them in charge he will consider what they are saying to be lies
@wakey
Granted the £270m some of this would have gone out as dividends – but under the bond issue the investers who bought the bonds are not only gaining interest (at a higher rate than our bank loans interest rate previously) but will ALSO be paid dividends (kind of a worst of both worlds situation!) But the bond issue means the Glazers are able to more efficiently asset strip the club should they decide to. After the 7 year bonds mature, we will have to pay back the £504m, plus we will have already paid out over £450m to the investors in interest and dividends.
The PIK notes are included in the £716m total debt, and the Glazers are planning on using the money they can take out of the club due to the bond issue to pay these down – so they will be using money from the club to pay off what we were always led to believe were personal debts.
I dont agree with you rooney/lottery ticket analergies – The club was valued by Forbes magazine in April last year at £1.3billion so the figures we are talking about are in the right ball park.
@Paul H
The debt is only going to continue growing, and more and more club profits are going to go towards paying off debt. Yes we are in a reasonably solid position short term – in the sense that we are not going to be declared bankrupt or go into administration etc because our turnover is still v high – but at the same time the glazers have maneuvered themselves into a position where potentially they could strip our club for their own gain if they wanted to. they also Sacked their superbowl winning coach and replaced him with a rookie head coach and a general manager who had never performed that role before. They had in 2007 a season ticket waiting list of 145,000 now there is no waiting list
The last 3 years have been incredibly succesful on the pitch with the trophys we have won, yet the debt continues to grow.
The Glazers have been owners of the Tampa Bay buc’s for 15 years, and for the first 7 years the team was succesful on the pitch, culminating with a superbowl win. It has been pretty much downhill since then, with the Glazers not willing to spend any money on the team which has gone from superbowl winners in 2002 to one of the worst in the nfl. Last season the Bucs were around $30m under the salary cap – which was twice that of the next closest team in terms of expenditure on players. From 2004 to 2008, the team spent less on players than any other in the league.
I think the only thing any of us can be sure on is that none of us really know what is going to happen whichever way any potential takeover goes, and it is an issue which is clearly causing much debate amongst united fans!
I agree that the 10 minute empty stadium thing will highlight the issue further, but i dont like the idea of our team have to kick off such an important game with a half empty stadium. No matter what our opinions are on the Glazers, our support for the team must always remain.
LUHG
“of course this is not saying they WILL do all this, but they could, and i know for one i dont want the prospect of this hanging over my club.”
The problem is whoever owns the club these possibilities exist. They exist for every football club and every business has the possibility of selling assets off.
-Under the Bank loans they had, the Glazers would not have been able to sell off assets as the bank loans were secured against these assets. Under the bond issue they can – they have maneuvered themselves from a position where they couldnt asset strip to one where they can (even though the total in interest/dividends on the bond is greater than the bank loans) – the other major benefit for they glazers is the terms of the bonds allow them to take more money out of the club (which they show they intend to use to pay off the PIK notes, their own personal debt)
If by some miraculous ways MG’s fan ownership thing came about these things would exist, as a PLC they would exist and any so called “Red Knights” buying the club it would exist. We can’t use these worst case possibilities against the Glazers as its the same for everyone
- Yes the possibilities would still exist, but it wouldnt be at the hands of one man/family as it is now. It would take majority votes etc so it would be much more difficult for a PLC/Fan ownership to asset strip, and if they did, the individual profit felt by every fan/shareholder would be relatively small, making it less worthwhile for them.
“Every pound spent on the club only 25p is staying within the club, its a disgrace!”
The Turnover/Profit ration hasn’t really changed that much under the Glazers than under the PLC. Infact I believe I’m right in saying we make a better Turnover/profit ratio now than before
- The 75p out of every pound has only come about as a result of the position the Glazers have aquired through the bond issue, they wernt able to take this much out of the club before.
“Gill has said the club will not sell rooney under any circumstance – but if the glazers say, well actually we’ll take the £80m, then there isnt anything that Gill or Fergie can do!”
The Bond Brochure though clearly states that investing in keeping the best players at the club and bringing other top players in. Unless Fergie wanted to or Rooney really wanted to go then I don’t think they would cash in on Rooney as he is vital for their business plans
- I know the Glazers aren’t stupid, they understand that to maintain their business model as it is we have to remain very succesful on the pitch, but realisticly the sucess we have had over the last few years will not be sustained long term, we will go for periods without winning the premiership/champions league, and what affect will this have on the Glazers outlook?
I guess the things i am most uneasy about with the Glazer ownership is the huge debts which although ‘managable’ are increasing year on year and the potential of the Glazers asset stripping the club (as unlikely as it may be). And with new UEFA regulations coming in a few years regarding debt and banning teams from european compititions if their debt is unmanageable. What if we did fall under that catagory (IF, i think at the moment we could be ok due to our large turnover figures etc) and coudnt compete in europe? Then we would miss out on one of our largest revenue streams.
The truth is we dont know, none of us really know what the Glazers are thinking, or what he future holds, but lets not get too divided (it feels very strange arguing with other united fans!). sure we have different opinions on what way the club needs to go regarding ownership, but its because we all want the same thing – long term stability of our club and continued sucess.
right, off to get ready for the arsenal match. With Fletcherinho bossing Fabregas im going for a 2-1 victory!! Enjoy the Game guys and remember…
U-N-I T-E-D United are the team for me!!!!!!!!!!
Wakey – united in a PLC model had no debt it had no plan to say if united finished 7th the club would not go into bad times because they did not owe a penny to the banks. you go on and on how the glazers have done a great job that the club has made more money under these TWATS they have done some cost cutting a lot of it. yes we know thats how buisness works with money moved but this is a football club and it should not be run by some people who are doing so much damage to the club.
- Under the PLC the season ticket prices were not going up every year, you forget this disgraceful cup scheme season tickets they brought in. and the teams success got uniteds profits up not them.
- Like a phew have said the PIK gives this regime the options to sell both old trafford and carrington, and they can take far more out of the club.
fans ownership gives the fans a voice and the club can become more closer to the fans we can vote and it stops anyone coming in and do whatever they like, because we can stop them the club becomes the comunitys again. any transfers of top players we can question the people running the club and if we are not happy with a regim we can force them out.
you dont realise what an hitoric day and a victory for the club it would be if the club was owned by the fans, we no longer will have rich people who dont know anything about the club running it.
MG – you say you are getting a plan together who are the red knights are you working with them who are they.
The most frustrating thing altogether is that the ABU media have succeeded with their intention to split us up and thereby weaken the club. They have managed to do this mostly because finance is something that is not easily understood, despite the fact that it may seem intuitive.
For example, many of you confuse cash flow with profit/loss. There is an important distinction and without it there is no possibility to discuss our financial position. Moreover, it’s important to distinguish between operating expenses and capital expenditure. These are also important from a cash flow point of view. Nowadays, I would say that cash flow is considered to be more important than profits, from an owner’s perspective.
Only the people who understand these concepts can discuss the financial situation of Man Utd and make sense at the same time. I am sorry, but this is the truth (but of course, anyone is entitled to an opinion).
To continue on what others have said, businesses today mainly focus on cash flow. Why? Because ownership means you have to invest a sum of money. Let’s look at how this works.
Realistically, the Red Knights would have to come up with at least 1.2 billion for them to be able to take charge. There are two ways of raising the money: their own equity or a combination of their equity and loans.
Using 100 % their own money would be stupid for several reasons but let’s say that this is what happens. Let’s say the Red Knights are truly altruistic about their ownership and don’t require any return from their investment.
For them not lose any money (not counting alternative costs such as the risk free rate of return etc), they would still need to account for inflation. Over time it can be assumed to 2 % a year on average. This equals 24 million a year to be collected as dividends or growth in the value of the club.
Since dividends are paid after tax we will need to account for this as well (over time, you need after tax profit to be able to pay out dividends). This equals 33,3 million in earnings before tax just to keep them out of the red.
In reality the Knights would probably want a return equal to their weighted average cost of capital. This cost includes inflation, the risk free interest rate and a premium equal to the risk of owning Man Utd. This means 2 % + 3 % for inflation and the risk free rate. The rate of the premium is hard to estimate, but I suppose it’s certainly not below 5 % given the return of the bond issued. This means a combined yearly increase in club value and dividend of 120 million.
This is not plausible and that is why a leveraged buy out is more likely. Bank loans require less return and are easier to service from a cash flow point of view.
This takes us back to the start because debt seems inevitable. So the question is not really the debt in itself. More importantly, the question is who do we want as owner(s)? Do we really think that a socio can generate the kind of cash needed or is the best solution, in fact, an ownership focussed on making the business work?
I, for one, am convinced that we cannot survive without having an owner that is in it for the money, but leaves footballing decisions to the footballers.
Yergen, your last sentence sums it up perfectly. It is also representative of Manchester United today. No need to change what is clearly a winning formula. Let’s hope the ABU media find good mileage in the Terry story and stop their attempts to cause further disunity within the vulnerable fan base.
Pondave, I can certainly see the logic and reason in your argument, but UEFA will never be allowed to prevent teams such as United from entering the CL because Europe needs United. That isn’t arrogant – it’s true. Platini knows it too. The CL sponsors need United.
On the other interesting point that you raised, the NFL, I think we’re not really making fair comparisons. The NFL is designed in such a way so as to discourage a small number of teams from dominating the game.
If you look the last 16 years, i.e. the period since the EPL has been in existence, there have been 11 winners. During that time, only 4 teams – United, Arsenal, Chelsea and Blackburn (how’d that happen??!) have won.
The Bucs were never going to be perennial challengers, due to their size and scale. The fans knew that. It’s a family orientated team, that does a lot for their community thanks to the benevolence of their owners. The fans had their day out in San Diego and I’m sure it was great, but they don’t expect it every year.
Many people claim to support United in many different ways, I myself for the last 38 years, my son since he was born, I called my house Old Trafford and it is painted Red, white and Black.
Our History if many of you have studied it will realise the Club has been through many trying times since its inception as Newton Heath in 1878.
There have been many people in charge of our Club, some who were good, some who were percieved bad, the truth is the club is alive and whatever happens the heart will always beat. I have listened to many people over the years put forward their opinion on this and that by so called supporters, including many from my homeland in Jersey who along with quite a few in Manchester called for Fergie’s head( that’s right who now owns up to this in 1989 and again in 2004) as supporters we can be fickle and unloyal. Fans have never been happy with whoever has run the club from Louise Edwards onwards. What about My Knighton many of you cheered that day we beat the Champions Arsenal 4-1 and greeted him with open arms as he did his juggling (in more ways than one) in front of the Stretford End, thank god that did not happen as many of you hoped. Yes the Glazers are in charge and I don’t agree with many of the decisions they have made but remember this the grass in not always greener on the other side. Yes I listened to Keith Harris with interest but it is easy to talk a good game it is another to deliver especially by raising expectation as he has done with going public. Time will tell what happens to Utd but the one thing I will never do is desert the Club I have shed all emotions for in my time unlike those who went to FC United, the true test of a follower of the Red Army is to support them in thick and thin, many have forgotten the heartache of relegation the embarrasement of losing to Southampton in 76! Just becareful how you come across in your protests, many of you are lucky enough to be season ticket holders and are the priveladged, remember for everyone of you who goes to the game their are 100 per person who would swap places with you given the opportunity. Your job is to Sing your hearts out at every game to lift and drive the Team on to greatness, we may never ever get the chance to win 4 in a row again, I ask you as a fellow Red, open your heart and lungs for the one thing that really matters The TEAM. Red till I die Rob Mc
We want asurance that the debt will be cleared subsequently then we shall fully commit 2 tha green and gold revolution. Can u imagine a decade ago MANCHESTER UNITED had reached 10 years as the richest club in the world and now meltdown, off stock exchange, plc dead. It’s unfair for the biggest club in the world to be beaten in revenues by “barcelona, real madrid” . with respect to them UNITED were unmatched before the GLAZERS arrived,,,
Having read and listened to the Radio5 live forum from Manchester so as to gauge my own opinion as to what the future holds for our beautiful game where on listening to all points being expressed from both supporters and the hirearchy within the game
So as to pledge my support to both you and the green revolution what you are trying to do in the good name of Manchester Utd I wish it to be known by you that I am now very angry on what the Glaziers have done to the good name of our club where all I want you to do is to remind them of our history and its legacy where Sir Matt and his Busby Babes built a side I am so proud of
Go Manu! Go Rednights. You’re the best!
love united hate yanks not been theatre of dreams for 2 years 2 buy anything from the mega store because my money goes to united not yanks keep fergie in the job even if he is backing the red knights united never die we will keep the red flag flying high mike 47 years a red and beyond the grave 50 on wednesday
Keith Harris ,
You will become our Hero.
We like your idea for man u.
Try and Go to the target.
I think glazers are fucking twats h8 em I go to every game I can watch em all been a red since I can remember walking so go on LUHG
glazers wont leave there sitting on a gold mine the only way theyll go is if the get atleast double of wat they paid or we force them out properly but by protest during the game it wont do anyfing! we need to protest by staying behind in the ground and all be united togeva n then protest
united till i die
Hi from Brazil!
I’m sorry but I couldn’t resist…
Please, take a look at http://www.goal.futebolnacabeca.com.br
It’s about a Brazilian perspective over the Glazer’s affair.
Thank you.
we have to get rid of the galzers . it looks like were winning one nil for them leaveing the season tickets freeze. i an going to bolton match on saturday we should bring load of banners cos we are behind the goal i know we brought to wolves and they stoped us putting them up but this is differnt were behind the goal this will probaly be last game befroe for portest for the run in lets get dose banners out in force
I am a big fan of Man Utd. Man Utd have a lot of fans in Serbia, I want to succeed in your fight to save the club as a man utd ….. NEMANJA VIDIC !!!!!!
If the Glazer brothers won`t sell, perhaps it`s time to try a different tact. There is already a club owned by run by and supported by Man United fans, It`s F.C.United of Manchester. With how much money you boys have got, you could have them rising through the tables. They basically play the same as United the only thing thats missing is the players. And what you`d do automatically with a little co-operation with the fans is take the fans away from Old Trafford the glazers would loose interest. And everybody could go back to Old Trafford again. And even better we could use F.C.United of Manchester as a training club, sort of Barcelona in Manchester!
would it not be great when fans could donate money therefore also being part owner of man utd!! is there such a thought from the red knights??
I support the Red Knight, because MU must not have a debt of that!If Glazer does not want to sell … just look at the result!
i agree with coffeeguy..im sure man united fans around the world could help the red knights to get the money..and togheter we could get back our club
Another season about to begin soon and still nothing…….
Those American carpetbaggers will never sell unless they give them the earth…..
It’s heartbreaking…
I Hope to the Red knights.
I love United and Hate Glazer.