Ahead of kick-off on Wednesday I was nervous but I was still entirely confident we would progress to the Champions League Round of 16. I would have preferred not to endure a nervy draw and fancied us to get a win, but it was neither here nor there. Whilst there was some talk of the game falling on the 6th anniversary of the last time we had failed to get out of the group, it didn’t feel within the realms of reality that history could repeat itself.
After the final whistle, the talk of Manchester becoming the new Milan was quickly replaced with jokes about Channel 5 (we will actually be playing on ITV4, meh) and comparison with the teams from London who had progressed though. Whilst there were some blues and reds who could console themselves with the failure of their rivals, it mattered little to me. At some point, I’m sure I’ll find it funny that Sheikh Mansour can’t even buy City success, but all their failure means to me is we’re saved from the unbearable piss taking that would have ensued. Their misery doesn’t soften the blow for our own pain and I am genuinely gutted we failed to get out of the group.
Patrice Evra spoke well on the topic, as he usually does, expressing the feelings of plenty of fans. “We deserve to be out,” he said. “But it is embarrassing to be in the Europa League.” Embarrassing is right. It’s impossible to avoid sounding like a snob or massively spoilt, but that competition is there for those who aren’t good enough for the Champions League and it’s embarrassing we’re lumped in with those second rate sides. APOEL are good enough for the elite competition, so are Napoli and FC Basel, but we’re with Stoke and the like in the bloody Europa League. It’s sickening.
Roy Keane was critical of the younger players on Wednesday and whilst I agreed with a lot of what he said, my initial reaction was to feel defensive of our youngsters. But our former captain doesn’t have any time for sentimentality and when you break it down, De Gea fucked up for the first goal and one of Evans or Smalling should have dealt with the second. I’m not putting blame on their doorstep and we learn more from our failures than our success, but there’s no tinted specs where Keano is concerned and on the night, some of the younger lads didn’t do their job and it cost us.
Keane said the players were letting the manager down and that’s true. The young ones have time to learn but it is the more experienced players, who should have taken the game by the balls and shown urgency from the first whistle, who need to “take a look in the mirror”, as Evra said. Yes, we dominated the game and yes we created enough chances to win it, but there’s no excuse for us not getting a draw. There’s no excuse for Rooney not burying that cross from Nani in the first half. Excruciating.
Essentially though, it’s the games at home we will be left to regret. The FC Basel game at home was the biggest joke of the lot and that is the game that knocked us out. Danny Welbeck put us 2-0 up with less than 20 minutes played but we found ourselves 3-2 down in injury time before Ashley Young drew us level. Joke.
So now we have the Europa League and the only thing that will take the edge off the pain for me is if we field the team we would have used for the League Cup. I’ve heard reds saying that we should go for it, that it would be great for Fergie to win it, but I can’t get my head around that way of thinking at all. Here comes the football snob in me again but who gives a shit about the Europa League? If it was the final tomorrow night, yes, obviously I’d want us to play our strongest team and win it, but the damage that competition could do to us is not worth the benefit. We’re without Nemanja Vidic for the rest of the season now because of one Champions League game, as if we can afford to risk any more of our players in trying to win the Europa League. If we got to the semis, maybe then take it more seriously, as silverware is silverware, but we should rely on our youngsters and fringe players to get us there, and if they can’t, no big deal.
The overriding feeling for me though, and one that is sadly so repetitive and dull, is we would not be in this position if we had brought in the quality central midfielder we’ve been crying out for. The cost of missing out on Champions League football from this point on is reportedly worth £20m. To make you sick, David Silva cost £24m and Juan Mata cost £26m, two players who have been brilliant in the Premier League, yet we wouldn’t splash the cash on a top midfielder. Could we afford to buy one? The answer is we couldn’t afford not to buy one, and our Champions League exit has gone a long way to proving that.
It isn’t so much the transfer fee that apparently held us back but the obsession with keeping the wage bill down. That’s why the likes of John O’Shea and Wes Brown were sold last summer and why Rio Ferdinand will probably be allowed to leave this summer. The best players want the best wages and whilst I love seeing us bring players like De Gea, Jones, Smalling, Cleverley, Welbeck and the Da Silvas in to the first team, that doesn’t mean I don’t want someone top class in the centre of the park, someone who has dozens of Champions League games under their belt, who has played in finals and World Cups. If we can break the bank for Rooney, who’s hardly set the world alight since forcing the club to pay him a small fortune on a weekly basis, then why aren’t we doing the same for a top player in arguably the most important position?
It’s not all doom and gloom though. We’ve got a good squad and we’ve got the best manager. I still think we’ll win the league, even if Vidic’s injury makes that a lot more difficult, and not having the annual Champions League quarter/semi finals to deal with in the last couple of months of the season will help with that. But that’s beside the point. It shouldn’t be either, or, where United are concerned. Cristiano Ronaldo guided us to that brilliant league and European Cup double in 2008 and the £80m we got for him has not been reinvested in to another superstar, regardless of how highly I rate some of the individuals that have been bought since his exit.
If anything positive can come from this it is the wake up call the Glazers and Ferguson need. We must bring in someone special and we must do it as soon as possible, if this season in Europe is to be an anomaly and not a more common occurrence.
We’ll never die.
Man Utd News 24/7
We’ll never die indeed
We’ll never die.
Well done Scott the Red!
We’ll never die.
Sign one quality midfielder in Jan (doesn’t even matter if he’s cup tied for Europe!!), another body in defense, get some of our lads fit again (chicha, cleverly) and we can still claim the Prem…
…lets just hope there’s ‘value in the market’…
We’ll keep the RED flag flying high
I dont think bringing a star player would make much difference, I feel the majority of the problem with this team is the attitude & teamwork along with some terrible form of some players (Rooney, Young..) & huge list of injuries (Clevz, Chicarito, Fletcher(?), Anderson, Twins, Vidic, Berbatov…)
Like I said yesterday, it’s not like our place in Pot A of the Ch/League is in jeopardy (yet), but the Europa league gives us an opportunity to make up for missing out on the Ch.League knock out stages in the rankings. But who knows for sure? The first Eu.League game is 3 days before the 5th round of the FA cup. If we are eliminated from the FA cup before that, what’s the point of resting anyone in the Europa League game?
I’m certain that Sir Alex looks at players like David Silva and Juan Mata with a hint of regret that he did not try harder to buy them, but I think the problem is that he has had his fingers burnt with large purchases in the past (Veron and Berbatov most notably) and he is now scared to spend close to £30m plus £5m+ wages p/year on a foreign player that is not guaranteed to be a success in the Premier League. I understand that a bid was made for Nasri, but that is a different case because he is already an established Premier League player so it would be less of a gamble.
However as you say Scott, the fact is that really we couldn’t afford not to buy a player and we are now paying the price for this.
The fact that we lined up on Wednesday with a central midfield consisting of a 38 year old winger, a 19 year old centre back and the willing but limited (especially so this season) Park Ji Sung is just an embarassment. I know we have several injuries but a point was made on F365 yesterday of which top Premier League teams that midfield would get into. Certainly not any of the top 6 and the letter went as far as saying that QPR’s midfield of Barton and Faurlin was better. The fact that such a statement can be made and not sound completely ridiculous is a damning indictment on Sir Alex’s utterly incommprehensible decision to not do anything about our stagnating midfield for over two seasons. It’s just inexcusable.
We should sign one of Modric, Sneijder, Gotze, Schweinsteiger whatever the cost
@sam
the last CM player we signed was Ando and Hargreaves
I cannot think of another one since 2007, which is now almost 5 years ago
To be fair to Fergie, he was expecting big things from ANdo and CLeverley, and they were magnifcent early on, but these joke of injuries has cost us our most flair central midfield
Hopefully, Clev will only miss our next 2 games vs Wolves and QPR and will be back for either Fulham or Wigan. Luckily we have winnable games until the Arsenal game
@ sayyidhashim I agree that the Anderson/Cleverly partnership looked promising but Fergie can’t excatly claim that their injuries are a surprise can he? Anderson has had persistent knee injuries since he has been at United and Cleverly, whilst looking very good on loan at Wigan, could barely string together two or three games there without getting injured
can’t afford not to sign a cm? just can’t afford it, the club is skint now lads. I have resigned myself to it. city, real madrid, chelsea, barcelona, the club simply cannot compete any longer.
if we go for an established star we won’t be able to afford the wages (sneijder being a case in point).
not going to change in my opinion, because the money is being sucked out into the glazer household.
fuck it all anyway. I hope all of football goes fucking bust and we can all start from square one.
scratch that.
I hope the whole fucking corrupt economic system goes completely tits up so that wayne fucking rooney isn’t taking home the salary of five policemen and five fucking teacher every week and some popstar wanker isn’t telling you to donate your money to charity and then flying off in his private jet to his millionaire mansion at the end of the concert.
burn the whole fucking country to the ground and start again, because this hasn’t worked.
I am off football. I don’t even want to watch it anymore. Bunch of wankers the lot of them. (except for scholes, he can stay)
“”"”"The overriding feeling for me though, and one that is sadly so repetitive and dull, is we would not be in this position if we had brought in the quality central midfielder we’ve been crying out for. The cost of missing out on Champions League football from this point on is reportedly worth £20m. To make you sick, David Silva cost £24m and Juan Mata cost £26m, two players who have been brilliant in the Premier League, yet we wouldn’t splash the cash on a top midfielder. Could we afford to buy one? The answer is we couldn’t afford not to buy one, and our Champions League exit has gone a long way to proving that.
It isn’t so much the transfer fee that apparently held us back but the obsession with keeping the wage bill down. That’s why the likes of John O’Shea and Wes Brown were sold last summer and why Rio Ferdinand will probably be allowed to leave this summer. The best players want the best wages and whilst I love seeing us bring players like De Gea, Jones, Smalling, Cleverley, Welbeck and the Da Silvas in to the first team, that doesn’t mean I don’t want someone top class in the centre of the park, someone who has dozens of Champions League games under their belt, who has played in finals and World Cups. If we can break the bank for Rooney, who’s hardly set the world alight since forcing the club to pay him a small fortune on a weekly basis, then why aren’t we doing the same for a top player in arguably the most important position?”"”
Absolutely spot on! Are you reading Cedars and james21?
a bit over the top there. apologies.
Invade the moon with keane! Brilliant! Dont apologise…I enjoyed that!
Wouldn’t we guys be happy if we win the Europa League come this may. I know Its not easy but If our players give 100% we can win. We are MANCHESTER UNITED DAMMIT.
I say we should make use of the tournament. Lets give the kids some exposure. Europa league better than Carling cup. Why not Just give our 100% and then see what happens.
Sir alex for the remainder of the season should stop with the experiments. Smalling should play in centre half along with either Evans or Rio. Stop playing At rb.
Players Like Evra, Park and Rooney should get serious. Sir Alex should have a fixed team that can challenge for Champions league in 2 seasons.
Jones is better as Defensive Mid Fielder. Let him play there and prosper.
I have full faith in Sir alex because I know he is not a quitter. He won’t Accept defeat.
Whatever any one says we are still better than Chelsea , Arsenal Tottenham Man City Liverpool.
Lets win the remaining games in December and hope city drop some points (Which they will).
DONT GIVE UP. BELIEVE
so much for in the start of the season schnejder who?! etc, now its we are in trouble. we have had injuries, no settled team, players being used in a variety of positions and most importantly lacking goals, coupled with an inexperienced back 4 most games.
the attitude like this in the article is why England will never achieve anything with this mentality..
@Invade the moon with keane: Nice one – keep them coming!
@CRooney: Exactly which part of the attitude do you find annoying?
Agree scot. It’s a big wake up call . We had no chance of winning the CL anyway, but we could win the legue if we buy 1 or two special players in jan. a few more in the summer and the CL will be ours next year! creative and holding mid, a striker and a left back…maybe another cd as well.
Spot on Scott. We’ve lost out on potentially £20 million in revenues from the Champs League, which, arguably, a top class CM could’ve brought in. At what point is a player ‘worth’ the extra 5-10 million? What is ‘value’? It is a question that Ferguson has to answer now. Whilst we were getting into Finals, you could argue that he knew best, but after the other nights showing… What also is a concern for me, is the form of players like Ashley Young, Park, Evra, Rio and Rooney. These are established stars who, rather than take responsibility on Wednesday, seemed to shirk it. Particularly Young, who looked promising in August and Sept but who now looks scared to express himself. The amount of sideways passes on Wednesday! He’s meant to be a dribbler! And I’ve so far not seen any evidence of his famed crossing ability-he goes to cross on his left foot but doesn’t seem to have one! Rooney is another one. 9 goals in 5 games then none in open play since September! I can only apologise if I come across sensationalist, but these patches of poor form need to stop. Season after season we see patches where he looks unplayable then long spells where he doesn’t score and looks out of sorts. For a couple of seasons it was excused/disguised by his young age and by the form of other players (Ronaldo). Now he is the main man for United and I’m afraid he goes missing for log spells in the season, something which, as our talisman, we cannot afford. It is not a coincidence that in the time Rooney has been playing badly, United have looked out of sorts going forward. We need him to be more consistent. And, we need SAF to be more consistent with selection. Welbz and Rooney upfront with Carrick and Jones in the middle of the park for a few games now, so we can get a bit of rhythm back and hopefully Rooney can play himself back into form.
Well said, Scott. I agree with pretty much everything.
Absolutely gutted to be out of euope but we were gonna get lashed out of it by a top team sooner or later, had we progressed.
You’ve hit the nail on the head about it being a wake up call for Fergie and the Glazers. Please God he buys next month.
If we go out of the FA Cup in January then I feel that The Europa cup should be taken seriously. We have never won and it’s still a trophy in the cabinet. I fear though Sir Alex will field a much weakened team in the next round and will crash out.
I was behind the goal when Schmeichel scored that night and was gutted we went out to some nobodies.
The attitude where we’re too good for this tournament. I’m not against the kids being given more of a chance in this tournament but this holier than thou attitude is despicable. Our pride comes from our achievements, not delusion.
Keegan4england
Not sure why you keep addressing me….. You and I may have locked horns as it were back in the summer but in all honesty I have no recollection whatsoever……. Let it go already
Like l’l always say, if we had Shaqiri, we’d have won d group. I know its doom n gloom when things go boom! But, on a lighter note, mayb it’s a plot 2 bring home the only trophy missin in d chest.
Scott I do not think we need a quality midfielder. We bloody need two tough excellent mid fielders. Like you rightly said we have missed out of some good money from the champions league and I the glaziers are watching just as they witnessed the demolishing at old trafford from our blue neighbours. I also hope SAF signs someone in January cause we cannot continue our drought in midfield and attack.
Who else feels its time 2 remove d devil from our badge? After all, there’s nothing good about d devil, is there?
Everything is good though about the Red Devils no? Sir Matt said so himself
Thursday night, ITV4! Doesn’t have the same ring to it? Well, we’re in ti now! No need for grumbling. The team were far to lax in the champions league. And as the boss says, this is our reward.
I cant believe any United fan wants the devil removed from our crest. Please leave religion out of the window when following football, there is no place for it, just look at the farce with the two Glasgow clubs.
Furthermore, fuck off Platini! Blatter’s bitch! Having ago at our manager. Cunt!
Gorse Hill Red
Well fucking said, if I may say so
Willie
What did that player tapping bastard have to say this time?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/manchester-united/8945675/Manchester-United-manager-Sir-Alex-Ferguson-criticised-by-Michel-Platini-over-Europa-League-comments.html
Here’s the link Cedars.
Remove the devil! FUCK OFF! Devil one of the main reasons I was attracted to the club in the first place. Want a pansy crest go follow blackburn.
Willie
Cheers for the link pal…….. What a prick this Platini is, I will never forgive the cunt for constantly trying to unsettle Robbo back in the day to join him at Juve…… Player tapping piece of garbage
You want United to take the Europa seriously? The scope for serious embarrassment is enormous there are a huge amount of teams in that competition vastly superior to Crystal palace as we will find out
NRD
Well said buddy……… We are the fucking Red Devils, I mean for fucks sake!
CROoney – What is with your constant fucking digs at Ingerlund? Worry about fucking Croatia son.
King Eric
The soon to be dad, hope all is well pal…….
Try this, just repeat after yourself ‘ignore the trolls, ignore the trolls’ works for me sometimes, however at other times I just snap and lose it
Will somebody please remove this quiza idiot from here? blithering dunderhead…reminds me of the village idiot from Scary Movie…
Jeet
Just pissed my self, thanks
Sorry Cedars…..Just agree that our midfield is utter utter shite and we shouldve signed someone and I will let it go……..
Anyone who has adopted the idea we should play the Kids in Europa is deluded. The ‘holier than thou’ attitude is the very reason we are no longer in the Champions League. It’s silverware, It’s winnable. There is still quality European opposition to test ourselves against, the likes of Ajax, Porto, City and Lisbon. The thing that annoys me the most about this is that all you lot who claim you wont take the Europa seriously will still be sniffing after tickets should we make the final. It’s the same every year we reach the Carling Cup final. After the reaction we received around the country to the Crystal Palace defeat, would you really wanna have to face that again? Playing in the Europa will be a reality check for the complacent players in our team, people like Rooney and Evra need a wakeup call
keegan4england
Sorry pal but I cannot agree to that, so you may not have to let it go for now.
@Danhbk
Well said.
@jeet dn’t know wht ur problem is. I asked a general question n its clear u r not intelligent enough 2 engage in a healthy argument without resorting 2 insults.
@NRD y do u hv 2b so effing angry? If I remember clearly, that name for us was used for the 1st time by a journo, not even by the supporters!
keegan4england
One more thing, if for any reason I offended you back in the summer then I apologize…. You seem like a decent fella….
We may not agree on certain issues but that is part and parcel
Nobody complains when Park Ji Sung scores against wolves at the death last season or being the only person to score against Arsenal. Yet its easy to point for one game. I dont think he should be played as a number 10 but he wasnt that bad.
Quiza
The nick name was actually preferred by the late Sir Matt, he always liked for us to be referred to as the Red Devils
I agree with the comments about not taking the Europa teams lightly, Porto, Ajax, Schalke, Valencia, Atletico Madrid, Twente heck even Stoke etc will all be taking this competition more seriously, and playing near complete youth sides would see us crash out quickly if we come up against them. I do think these injuries has highlighted our lack of squad depth though, call it lack of form or whatever you like but you’d think the rotation of players would have made them all hungry to nail down a spot. Personally think Rooney needs to take a hard look at himself and ask if he’s earning his new contract, I don’t for one second believe that the appeal for the world cup was on his mind. If anything I think he’s done something stupid again and is dreading the press finding out as I think he’s been average at best this season.
“Here comes the football snob in me again but who gives a shit about the Europa League?”
Lots of clubs, lots of fans and lots of players. Football is dead if winning a European trophy isn’t important. In a climate where teams would rather finish 4th than win something, you have to wonder about football’s priorities.
And the Europa League has become a bit naff since they let teams like us in, teams who finish 4th. Big clubs want the financial safety net then piss on the competition that provides the safety net?
I expect these comments from people like Evra, but Ferguson has spoken of the competition with the respect it deserves. It’s not snobbishness you display, but ignorance: the kind of attitude I’ve seen from new Man City/Chelsea supporters or SKY pundits-spoilt, know-nothing brats. We’ve been thoroughly embarrassed in Europe in three of the last four years (twice in the final and on wednesday). Time to teach these players how to play at this level.
@akanemo
I’m not blaming Park for his performance. I’m blaming the fact that he got picked. He’s hardly played all season and then gets picked in United’s most important game of the season…..and as a support man. Beyond belief. He had no match sharpness, looked lost and didnt pose any threat whatsoever. With the likes of Young and more importantly Welbeck able to play in that position, I thought it was a terrible decision as soon as the line ups were revealed. When Welbeck came on, we looked more dangerous than at any point during the match.
@Cedars – all good my friend.
Like I said in another post, every silverware is worth winning, especially for young players who’ve never been with us and who’ve never won anything before. It breeds and sustains a winning mentality. That’s why Sir Alex takes great pains in blooding youngsters in slowly.
@Captian Park
Absolutely spot on. Youngsters are back bone of our club.
@ Quiza Know your history pal, like Cedars said Sir Matt came up with it and to add he came up with it so the opposition will fear us more and it still works to this day. Where are you from? You remind me of a guy I met my first day at uni who said he doesn’t like Man United because its against his beliefs to follow something with devil on it and that I shouldn’t either. I told him promptly where to go.
Fuck me, in the space of 2 days we have one twat who thinks the best thing to respond to an exit out the CL is to laugh at everyone on here. Then another who responds by saying get rid of the devil because it isn’t “nice” and comes up with a made up story to prove his point. Lets rechristen ourselvs the Red Cupcakes, or Red Fruity Pebbles.
“To make you sick, David Silva cost £24m and Juan Mata cost £26m, two players who have been brilliant in the Premier League, yet we wouldn’t splash the cash on a top midfielder. Could we afford to buy one? The answer is we couldn’t afford not to buy one, and our Champions League exit has gone a long way to proving that.”
Could we afford to buy one? Sahin and Ozil are world class talents and better value for money than the two Spanish and they both went for £8m, which is what we spent on Bebe. So, yes, we could afford one.
What of the 18m on Ashley Young? Was a left-winger more of a priority than a CM? No, in my opinion.
“Here comes the football snob in me again but who gives a shit about the Europa League?”
Football exists out of the big teams in the Premier League. Yes, it even extends beyond Barcelona and Madrid and the Champions League, which is great, but the same shit most years. Try it, football’s a joy!
I hope we go out as soon as possible – I have no interest in a competition that is the equivalent of the old schooboy subsidiary cup (or losers cup as it was better known). The Glazers and Fergie have put us in this position with their fleecing of the club and their stubborness over spending on quality they can have Thursday nights to themselves. The foreign scouting network that has brought us Manucho, Diouf, Bebe, Obertan et al should be ripped up but its run by Fergies brother so it wont be
Any by the way the reason the tickets are not in the ACS is that a number of us pointed out to the club yesterday that their Terms and Conditions for Season tickets did not include Europa League and as such were legally unenforceable -
You have totally summed up how I feel Scott.
We didn’t lose the group in this game, truthfully we haven’t performed well enough in the competition this year. Failing to win our games at OT was our downfall. I don’t think we can use the younger players or our injuries as an excuse either. The fact is we should have a squad big enough to cope with injuries and the sad truth at the min is we don’t. I am sick of saying we are severly lacking in midfield, Anderson seemed to have improved at the start of the season and Cleverly had a great start but with both of them injuried Fletcher and Carrick have failed to impress.
However disappointing this is though we need to get beind our team. At the end of the day we have to take the highs with the lows and these bad times will make the good times that bit sweeter.
I think the problem in our team is too many players out of form for so long and not having a good technical midfielder in the holding role. Rio, Evra, Young have been poor. We missed Carrick in the game. We have been scoring just one goal in the league for over four or five games. The games against Villa and Swansea were some of the poorest football matches I have ever seen. We are not creating enough chances. So I say we need to bring at least two quality (not superstars) players in midfield.
The disdain shown by English cubs/media and fans towards the Europa League (with the excpetion of Fulham and Stoke) is sickening. I unequivocally disagree with how some of us are treating it before we have even kicked a ball. We’ve won trophies now in the last 6 seasons lets keep it up. I want us to hold the record of winning trophies in consecutive seasons by an English club, this is a great opportunity to do so and No the Community shield doesn’t count.
I really am shocked at some of the comments here dismissing the Europa cup as a waste of time. I’m just glad back in 1991 the fans with regard to the Cup Winners Cup took it very seriously indeed. It turned out to be a great season and final that is still talked about today.
Unless Wazza gets his fucking act together, I’d happily see him out the exit door myself. He is undoubtedly the most naturally gifted footballer in the league, in my opinion anyway. But he’s a striker and he doesn’t score consistently. Yes he has great patches, but that’s not enough to be honest. We could accomodate him if Chicha was always fit and we had a world class midfield pair. Because he is capable of amazing feats with a football. But he doesn’t fucking score enough to warrant his salary. 180k a week and rising? For what? His hollywood passes? Personally if he doesn’t start hitting the back of the net on a regular basis I’d rather we got rid of him, brought in a cheaper alternative who can score consistently (Falcao would have been nice), I mean look at players like Gomez. Was never highly rated but he’s on fire this season. Wazza is meant to be our talisman, but I can’t remember the last time he grabbed a game by the scruff of the neck and either dug us out of the shit or completely destroyed the opposition. And then onto the midfield. Nothing wrong with our wingers I think. They have room to grow, yes, but a lot of their mistakes come from our reliance on them I think. If Nani loses the ball at the end of a run, instead of having a good midfielder covering for him, we have a bunch of lethargic fuck wits. I’ve tried sticking up for our players, and I’ll always support them while they wear our red, but really, Darron Gibson isn’t a young prodigy anymore, he hasn’t fulfilled his promise, Fletch hasn’t been the same since his virus, Carrick is a good holding midfielder but not world class. Anderson was a fat twat with potential and now is just a fat twat. Cleverley is the only midfielder at the moment who inspires confidence in me. Carrick has picked up his form but sometimes he has an absolute stinker. I don’t know who we should buy because I’m not a fucking expert, nor do I take the fact that I play Football Manager to mean that I know who we should buy. But the scouts surely know who can do a job. I mean, look at how Ozil has blossomed at Real Madrid, he ousted Kaka (granted he was injured but no easy feat) and is now first choice. There’s no doubt he has ability, but he was their for the taking at 13m!!! If he wanted to go to Madrid anyway, fair play, but I would have done all the convincing necessary to persuade him to join us. One thing is certain, this will be a long hard season. Given Vidas injury, I think we need a defender for the short term in January, as cover in case we suffer anymore serious injuries, a couple of world class midfielders would be overdue, and a back up/promising young striker who is of a higher caliber than Kiko. That’s my wishlist, but whatever happens this season, We’ll never die.
Scott – always manage to capture what I am thinking. Great piece
Well said Scott. As for Europa don’t think we can afford to go for it. I don’t want to see us jeopardise our Title fucking about in a random competition we’d rather not be in. Thats not disrespecting Europa its just being realistic. Put it this way I’d rather see our strongest team battle for the Title and FA Cup, at least those games don’t involve flights to Eastern Europe or Scandinavia or wherever. Lets keep our focus on domestic honours this season and blood a mix of experience and youth in Europa. Whats the point in winning that cup if we lose our Crown? Its not like we wanna come back to defend it….
Said it before but imo the best football I’ve seen since winning the league came from Anderson and Cleverley. Against Barcelona, against City, against Arsenal (and a few others) those two lads combined to devastating effect and played brilliant football. We conceded more goals during that time, but we created much much more through the middle, and our wingers and strikers benefited from having an effective central route to goal. I wouldn’t say no to a January signing, but tbh im much more interested in seeing those two back and in the team.
What other midfield of ours this season could have achieved those 3 results (Barca, City, Le’Arse?). Carrick has been his usual solid self but we need a partnership not a single player performing well. People are saying transition, well the midfield pairing of Ando and Tom is the best we’ve seen this season against the very best teams. YES the injuries are maddening, but both players are due back within a month hopefully, and I think our fortunes will return when those two return to the fold. Something tells me Alex won’t be pressured into buying anybody in January tho, so maybe we’re in for another long slog this season? No probs. Didn’t do that bad last year did we?
COME ON UNITED!
@NRD Sir Matt heard it and liked it, he wasn’t the 1st 2 use it. And please enuf with d name calling already. And how come u ddn’t respond 2 my “Shaqiri 4 United” comment?
Not usually one for having a dig at the great man. As most know, I love the man. I would, however, lay some of the blame at Fergie’s door, for Rooney’s lack of goals. Playing Rooney in CM, was a mistake. That doesn’t excuse his God awful miss at Basel. But maybe, it has stunted his scoring instincts? Just a thought. I’m off now, to have a shower! I feel dirty for having a pop at Fergie.
Buying is always on option for midfield considering we haven’t bought anybody in years, but people aren’t realistic when looking at our existing midfield players imo.
Carrick has been brilliant individually, but our best partnership has been Anderson and Cleverely, and things went downhill once they stop playing together. Barca friendly, City Charity Shield, Arsenal and Spurs – show me where we’ve played better creative football this season?
I would’ve thought our managers decision to START them as this seasons first choice would’ve been a big enough HINT to the faithful but clearly not? We didn’t lack spark in the middle this season until that partnership came to an end, and thats a fact whether you like both or not.
So regardless of what happens in the window and despite ill feeling towards the Brazilian those two lads clearly have a brilliant understanding of each others game and together they produced the best football United have played this season. Don’t write them off is all im saying.
Hate it or love it, but based on previous games, our chances of winning anything season is looking gloomier by the day.
Basically, we have been fucking up and it’s come back to bite us in the arse.
I’m hurting OK. So before you lot go off on tirade about supporting United come what may, please give me the latitude to vent my frustrations. Like most of you, generally, I’m an armchair coach. Hell, from my sofa, I’m better that SAF and Jose combined but today, I’m here as a United fan who is hurting. I really long for the days when United played with swagger, when if they came into town, the opposing team parked the bus in front of goal. Gosh,I miss those days.
Here’s what I think is wrong with United.
A. Inconsistency in front of goal
a. Since Rudd left ,we have not had a prolific striker(note I said ,striker, Ronaldo was a winger).Some who consistently could get you 20-25 goals per season. Yes, we had that twat Tevez but fuck him and the horse he rode in on. Wayne goes on sporadic scoring sprees then ,nothing for some time and if no one steps up ,we are screwed
b. Is it just me or have you noticed how United seems to always pass the ball from side to side? There’s no one who can thread quality passes to the strikers on a consistent basis.
c. DeGea should have been bought as an understudy to VDS ,that being said, he still can mature to be a fine keeper but I’m not betting the farm on that.
i’ve noticed over the last 3 or games that a lot of the players look like they just don’t give a shit. mainly rooney, flailing his arms at the ref every time an opponent touches him, so much for a street footballer. at work, when someone constantly complains about how they aren’t getting a fair shake, we call them a virus. their bad attitudes bring everyone around them down. maybe it’s time for SAF to sell that virus to madrid after all.
@ King Eric http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11675/7364276/Harry-questions-Euro-format Reference to ‘arry. Despise him now. I said to you a long time ago I respected him, thats gone down the toilet today. If he played a strong XI he may have had a point but he doesn’t so he can go fuck himself. Spurs aren’t even going to make it through.
Re: Platini, 2 things made me turn on him, make that 3.
1- His disdain towards english football. We may loathe the ingurland national team, but nothing wrong with our domestic league, we have too many foreigners but thats more down to chelskis and l’arses of this world than us.
2- Look at Champions League Final 2008, the look on his face when he handed the trophy to Rio and Giggsy, looked like he’s seen someone spunk on his mums face, contrast that with the following year with Barca and this year just gone (didn’t watch the final when Inter won) grin like he’d been sucked off by Megan Fox.
3- The Bryan Robson tapping up story. That sent me over the edge on him.
Onto happier things, hows your Mrs? Baby must be due fairly shortly? Is he going to be an X-Mas Day baby, if he is he’s going to want twice as many presents!!!
@ Quiza. Your second comment was such a shamble you Shaqiri didn’t deserve a response but as I’m in a good mood what I think about Shaqiri is that
NRD – Hello mate. Cheers for that and fuck off Harry. Yes the little man is due a week tomorrow, Cannot wait. Thats why I just feel apathy towards Footy in general at present. More important things in life. Too fucking greedy and passionless these days. Hope you are well mate.
Think Redknapp has a fair point about the Europa League. Making it a cup containing ‘losers’ from the Champions League has surely been one of the reasons it’s devalued since its UEFA Cup days? Or does it benefit from having some big clubs fall down from the CL?
“His disdain towards english football. We may loathe the ingurland national team, but nothing wrong with our domestic league, we have too many foreigners but thats more down to chelskis and l’arses of this world than us.”
I think one of his problems it that clubs like Man City and Chelsea make a £180m loss in a year and still pay the biggest wages and fees. They’re literally buying success. To me it’s doping – not with drugs but overseas finances.
I’m usually in broad agreement with Scott’s post-match analysis, but not this time, apart from the matter of a world-class central midfielder, where I strongly agree, although I’d put it more that we need an attack-mided playmaker who can score a few. Either way we need some inspiration through the middle/in attack. We need to end the cotinual sideways passing at a slow tempo and find someone who can thread through balls at pace, and find space. But there’s another problem that has beset the team since at least the 6-1, and that’s the lack of forward movement.
At our best in the last five years we get our forward players endless rotating and swapping positions, restlessly worrying defenders and pressurising them. Our opponents would talk in awed tones about how HARD United players WORK. At present only Welbeck, when fit ,comes close to that. Yes, Rooney at his best is all over the pitch (he’s been played in midfield because of injuries to others, so I wouldn’t blame him for everything) but even when there’s movement it’s far too slow and predictable, perhaps because so many players are chopped and changed from week to week, including positional changes, so that split-second certainty about where a team-mate will be has gone (having been so refreshingly evident in pre-season and the first few weeks of the season).
I think it’s wrong and arrogant to dismiss the Europa League and I hope United really go for it, not least because I fear it may be our only chance of silverware. At least we’ll know whether or not we’re still in the FA Cup before we need to think about who to pick for Europe.
I certainly hope our younger players get chances in the Europa as they did in the Carling Cup, but we should pick teams to win. Unfortunately so many players are off form or returning from injury it’s hard to judge what our best team is at present, which is partly the result of injuries but also down to Fergie’s obsession with rotation and never playing the same team twice. He should avoid putting out a totally incoherent line-up where there are significant numbers of players who have not only never played in the chosen formation before but have also seldom played in their allotted position. The Crystal Palce defeat was entirely avoidable, especially as Palace put out a weakened team themselves.
I’m all for flexibility and encouraging an ability to play anywhere on the park, but it’s unfair to keep moving young players around. Phil Jones is great, but he’s now played in at least three positions, each of which he lacks experince in and is still learning his trade. To his credit he never gives up and has scored United’s two most recent goals, both created by his desire to make things happen in the opposition box.
Roy Keane is entitled to say whatever he likes, but blunt speaking shouldn’t be mistaken for wisdom. He blamed the youngsters when it was the older players – his old mates – who really let the side down. He singled out Giggs as United’s best player which was palpably absurd, unless Keane had his eyes closed as Giggsy repeatedly passed straight to a Basel player when under no pressure. But then Keane clearly had his own personal agenda, perhaps the legacy of his bitter departure from Old Trafford. His opinions didn’t seem to me to come from a deep love of United, more from a desire to sock one at Fergie, hence the manager’s tart response, pointing out that Keane has largely failed as a manager so far, a fair point when someone is making a thinly veiled personal attack on your own managerial skills, couched in damaging terms of the young players not being up to it.
I think Fergie has made mistakes this season and is certainly not above criticism, but let’s keep things in perspective. No manager wins all the time , every season, and no-one is error-free, which is why Fergie’s record is so incredible over two and a half decades. It may seem trite to call on supporters to keep faith, but I think he deserves a bit of credit. His record is absolutely incredible, in the most pressurised , most scrutinised sport on earth.
I’m not sure it’s always the way of the club to just bring someone in and hope they solve all our problems. Ronaldo was a superstar for us, yes, but he wasn’t when he first arrived. Same goes for many other who turned out to be massive players for the club as they matured.
But I agree that we do need someone who can make things happen from the middle. Who can open games up by creating chances and getting forward and generally nurture our attacking play with good use of the ball.
Sir Giles!!!
ahjs – yes, Wenger calls it “financial doping”.
Redknapp is right about the Europa League tbh. It’s a joke of a competition. The way to solve the problem is to only let champions in the Champions League while the clubs who finish 2nd, 3rd, 4th go into the Europa League. That would restore integrity to the “Champions” League and make the Europa League a much better competition.
By the way. Sir Alex has come out now and said that the Europa League is a great competiton, so Platini will be happy that he has rectified that.
Giles – I think you’re wrong about Keane. He has made a number of bitter comments since leaving United but on Wednesday night he was simply telling it like it is. I imagine he is genuinely concerned about the attitude in the United camp these days, with great professionals like him and the Neville brothers not around to keep our young starlets’ feet on the ground.
19 year old Phil Jones bought his first Aston Martin last month, while 21 year old Tom Cleverley (he of 6 senior appearances for United) is soon to release his “TC23″ clothing line. http://www.tomcleverley23.com/collection/
These are young men already being compared to Duncan Edwards and Paul Scholes respectively, when in truth, as Keane would no doubt tell them, they have achieved nothing in the game.
Perhaps this is why Keane took aim at the young guns, just as he did in 2005. Whether they were to blame or not for Wednesday’s debacle, I’m glad Keane took the opportunity to give them the proverbial rocket up their arses. Somehow I can’t imagine “@rioferdy5″ and “Wazza” doing the same.
I wouldn’t go the wall over it but I do disagree Fred.
Keane was bullying players in 2005, such as Ronaldo and Fletcher, in the name of leadership. Fergie was right to get rid of him then, as a corrosive influence. AS soon as he’d left, the younger players flourished, with encouragement from the likes of Gary Nev and Scholsey, neither oif whom shrank from telling home truths when needed. To point the finger at Jones is especially unfair, after all he is being moved around from match to match and yet he’s been one of our better players , scoring both of our last two goals.
There’s nothing particularly sinister about Jones and Cleverley taking advantage of commercial opportunites, which young players have done since the 1950s at least. Whenever either of them have been on the pitch for United they have both given their all, and neither has let the club down. I seem to remember Keane going out on the piss from time to time when he was much older than either of them, as well as wilfully getting sent off in complete disregard of the team, showing a lack of professionalism that he later came to regret. I see no sign of Jones or Cleverely ( or Smalling or De Gea) behaving like that. Nor has any one of them stormed out of a team before a major tournament. Over cheese sandwiches.
Don’t get me wrong: Roy is undoubtedly among United’s greatest players, but he’s a complex man, full of anger and a desire for revenge (‘Take that you c**t!’). His words on Wednesday were not chosen for the benefit of Manchester United but in order to big up his own reputation as an inspirational leader who ‘tells it like it is’, forgetting how poor United were in Europe in his days after 1999 until after he’d gone when young players were free from his inhibiting effect. It seems from what players at Sunderland and Ipswich have said, Keane was the same there, all stick and no carrot. And look how that turned out. Kicks up the arse are best done when people deserve them.
I have to disagree about Keane’s motives on Wednesday night. I don’t believe he had any sinister agenda. I agree that he (and Van Nistelrooy) needed to go in 2005 for the reasons you stated. I fear we have now gone too much the other way though, and could soon become like Arsenal – lots of talented young players, but no genuine leaders on the pitch and an absence of the winning mentality that we have had in previous years.
Giles – Top , top posts as ever mate.
Fred – Oh god. I am a bit disappointed to learn Cleverley is bringing out a fucking clothing range. Like you say, as much as I rate Tom, and I really do he hasnt achieved owt yet. This smacks of Beckham nonsense. Fucking clothing ranges. Didnt think he was like that to be honest pal.
Giles – “over cheese sandwiches”. Ha ha.
@ STR
The overriding feeling for me though, and one that is sadly so repetitive and dull, is we would not be in this position if we had brought in the quality central midfielder we’ve been crying out for. The cost of missing out on Champions League football from this point on is reportedly worth £20m. To make you sick, David Silva cost £24m and Juan Mata cost £26m, two players who have been brilliant in the Premier League, yet we wouldn’t splash the cash on a top midfielder. Could we afford to buy one? The answer is we couldn’t afford not to buy one, and our Champions League exit has gone a long way to proving that.
It isn’t so much the transfer fee that apparently held us back but the obsession with keeping the wage bill down. That’s why the likes of John O’Shea and Wes Brown were sold last summer and why Rio Ferdinand will probably be allowed to leave this summer. The best players want the best wages and whilst I love seeing us bring players like De Gea, Jones, Smalling, Cleverley, Welbeck and the Da Silvas in to the first team, that doesn’t mean I don’t want someone top class in the centre of the park, someone who has dozens of Champions League games under their belt, who has played in finals and World Cups. If we can break the bank for Rooney, who’s hardly set the world alight since forcing the club to pay him a small fortune on a weekly basis, then why aren’t we doing the same for a top player in arguably the most important position?
Totally agree mate.
We need to take stock and that’s the manager, board and the glazers. If United claim to be an elite club (which they are), then along with the promising youth we have we need to buy top quality footballers. And pay them what they are worth. Listen, the commercial revenue and “brand” awareness generated by CR7 when he was with us immense. Look at the Beckham effect when he went to Real Madrid.
All I’m saying along with a lot of fans is that for United
the board have to realise that their commercial success is based upon the success of the team.
SAF has to get rid of dead wood like Gibson, Kiko, Owen etc.
Then he must deal with the coaching staff – is Mickey Phelan really a brilliant tactical, innovative genius who has fresh ideas and is able to put a strategy together for players to comprehend and execute on the field? No he’s not, and how the medical department deal with player treatments and recover.
To me it’s funny. We get to the point where skysports are about to break the news and for whatever reason(money) talks with Sniedjer break down. Here we are 3 months later 20 million down and lumped in with stoke and poznan and half a team. The red faced red army. It’s silly. Hopefully it will be a lesson learned by the Glazers because it’s hit them where it hurts now. Spend it to make it. Jan deals are a must.
Wakey my man, where r u? What’s ur take on our CL exit?
In response to a few posts and comments.
I once asked a Scottish manager how he kept all his players motivated and keen and he said “by getting rid of players that weren’t moanin about not playing. Any player that isn’t knocking on my door and asking to play more should be sold as they lack ambition”.
I might be wrong but I would guess the senario above is not as common as it used to be with Sir Alex. His legendary status and reputation (more often misrepresented) combined with large salaries has got to have had a dampening effect. It seems to me that too many players at United are happy with their slot. I guess what I’m trying to say is that I agree with those on here who feel Fergie has let this squad go a little stale. There is validity in questioning whether there enough pressure on the first team and are the youngsters being held back by a group of players who are ….. add your own words?
I tend to agree that its time to shake the tree and I’m confident Sir Alex will do just that. Deadwood for new growth and all that.
So here is my FM bit. Owen, Diouf, Park, Macheda, Gibson, Berbatov (pains me to say it but his talent should be on display somewhere else and not hidden away at Old Trafford) should be sold to the highest bidder and if money is STILL needed in order to buy, then I’d consider selling one of our midfielders – Park, Carrick or Anderson. If pushed would say Carrick (been a very good player for us but I don’t think he provides an adequate defence or a significant threat and the fact that he has some resale value). Like many, I still feel with Anderson that there is a hell of a player trying to get out of that fat suit. How long do you wait though? I would keep Fletcher because I think he understands Manchester United and because I’m Scottish
I agree with the comments that say other than Vidic and Rooney, there’s no leaders in the side (personally I think Rooney’s better led). I miss the midfield hard bastards with a swagger and ability to back it up. Have they had their day? Fergie used to love and thrive on managing a certain type of character – the talented, cocky, self believing types (Morrison?). His brilliant man management would see them shine. Even back in his Aberdeen side that conquered the Old Firm and defeated Real Madrid to win A European Trophy no less, he had them. For me United should have more than Rooneys inflated ego in the team but the problem is you need the energy of a young man to control them.
My wish list for Christmas and the Summer. A new right back (or tell Valencia that’s his position), an experienced attacking/goalscoring midfielder, a fit Hargeaves type and a Larsson type striker.
I do think Sir Alex will bring in 2 or 3 players in January and bed them in for next season but if he doesn’t, it surely has to mean game time for the young boys (Morrison, Fryers, Pogba, Keane).
I can do trophyless seasons because I’ve had many of them before and because I’ve been spoilt for so many.
Hoping UNITED and the Roses discover their mojo in the new year.
Dont need much imo. Rooney, evra and Rio; step up. Get a quality CM, Modric, De Rossi, Essien kind of player and It will come good.
Haven’t read all the comments, but to me, one thing worse than being dumped down into the Europa League would be failing to win it. Or at least do very well. So this competition is beneath us? Will we still be saying that if we get knocked out early?
For that reason, I think we should take this just as seriously as we would the CL. But if we do turn this competition over to the youngsters, we should let them go all the way. Don’t let the youngsters get as far as the semi-final then bring in the big boys for the “serious” matches. That’s just wrong.
wellread
It is a pleasure to read your well-constructed and fairly-presented comment.
Thank you sir, for taking the time and caring enough to submit your views in this manner.
I do not fully agree with the gist of your expressed opinion.
Firstly, it seems that the tree has already had it’s first shake, and out fell Brown, O’Shea and Hargreaves. Add them to the already over-ripe Scholes, Neville (and Giggs?) who had already fallen from the tree unaided; and that’s 5 out. The next part of Sir Alex’ revitalization process was to grant opportunities to the various unproven players who needed to step up, that they may self-weed themselves out of the picture. Diouf, Macheda and Gibson (lucky to still be here) seem not to have forced any upgrade in their status, and are teetering on the edge of an exit. Jones, Smalling and Hernandez have more than fulfilled SAF’s hopes. The twins and Anderson enigmatically fluctuate between brilliant and detrimental, so the jury is befuddled. Some of these 6 players will thrive and remain, others will soon be lopped off.
Berbatov, Owen, Giggs and Park do not come into the tree-trimming equation. It was always likely that all 4 would play a limited role. A critical role though, because many games require specific tactical deployment, and these 4 men have the ability and more importantly the experience to complete allocated functions adequately. Also always likely, was that not all 4 would play a big role. In fact, the smaller the better. This meant that in all likelihood, post-season analysis would indicate that one or more of them could have been released. That’s part of the overheads attracted when running a multi-pronged assault at the top trophy’s in football. As an analogy one might consider an unused goalkeeper at the World Cup a luxury, yet actually he’s a player they cannot go without.
I don’t expect Sir Alex to change his plans, nor should he. He may well bring in players in January or July, but these will not be panic or knee-jerk acquisitions. We have already identified and initiated any potential signings. The injury to Vidic of course presents a problem. We were not caught unawares, however, as we know that Centre-Halves get injured. The pressure added to our limited pool of reserve right backs is the issue that concerns most of us. Attending to this deficit with a left-field purchase seems probable. The best laid plans of mice and men require reworking when the bus breaks down on the way to the game. It’s how we respond as a club to the pot-holes en route that separates us from the also-rans.
It’s been a while since I last posted and while I don’t see the point in slating anyone now, I have to say something.
I have faith. Yes, it’s weird coming after this. but we must not lose our way.
Lose Games But Do Not Lose The United Way
http://unitedbanter.blogspot.com/2011/12/lose-games-but-do-not-lose-united-way.html
Hard work/team work combined with players always looking for the ball and attacking flair. Where has it gone? I’ve felt for some years now, that some of our players aren’t up to it, but good tactics, hard work and a little bit of luck has kept us on top. I don’t know what fergies thinking right now, but I hope he demands more of his players. It looks like their all jaded by salaries and playing for manchester united. We’ve missed a Keane type of player for a long time. We need Evra, Rooney, Ferdinand etc. at the top of their game now.
King Eric – i’m not your son…i have the right to my opinion as well
@jeet – the attitude that we have the god given right to be among the best…well i got news for you – we don’t, and we’re not…there’s no shame in playing /winning the EL – it sure as hell means more that some shitty FA Cup…it’s an international tournament…
and “shit, we’re with stoke in some shitty competition and basel and napoli are among elite”…that does not mean that teams in the EL are shit, nor that teams in the CL are creme de la creme…
remember when porto won europa league ? well, the next year they won the CL as well – does that mean that the CL is a shitty competition because porto, the team that played europa league the previous year, won it ? valencia won the EL plus they were twice in the final of the CL – that does not mean a thing –
we could still save our season with europa league trophy if we get just a little bit serious….that kinda attitude – You must accept the reality and say ” we’re not that good anymore”…sure, we should have progressed but that doesn’t change the fact that the quality of our team has declined during the years…it’s nothing catastrophic, nothing that 1 or 2 players quality players can’t solve but it’s a realistic fact
play gibson more least he shoots.
Though he was a useless flap of skin but proved me wrong in a big game v bayern 3inside 3 minutes.
He still may be shite but see how he plays with a few starts under his belt.
Attack attack attack attack attack
CROoney – Yes you do have your opinion but I find it a bit rich slagging an Ingerlish team and its country off when you live in fucking Croatia which is fucking ripe with match fixing by the look of things.
Oh and in “England” son doesnt necessarily mean blood son. Its a term lad.
When a person starts “I’m entitled to an opinion as well” you know that has had to switch from the actual discussion to some moral strawman. Anyone can comment, just press ‘submit’
There’s no un-submit or edit function, perhaps that’s more pertinent here.
King Eric – lol, i know it’s a term, but i don’t like it…
well, at least in croatia we don’t have gangs attacking and robbing citizens and causing havoc in the country… we don’t have footballers on dope , we don’t have footballers cheating their pregnants wifes with whores, we don’t have footballers having affairs with their brother’s wifes, we don’t have footballers having affairs with their teammates’ wifes, we don’t have fans wishing one of their national team players’ child to get cancer etc…
oh, and best of all, in croatia , we don’t take people different colour in chains from their homes and drag them to our country to be our slaves and start a nation on it..lol you’re the one to talk about “fucking croatia”…
now, back to that “match fixing”….not dinamo – lyon ?you’re not that stupid, are you ?
you wanna talk about match fixing ? how about mat le tissier…or you wanna talk about 1999 , Charlton Athletic….or maybe 1997 West Ham , or Crystal Palace vs Wimbledon that same year…yeah, there is no corruption in England.
smartalex – no, it’s a polite way to say “fuck you”