The Daily Mail reports on a row between David Gill and a fan.
Off The Post has a ticket for the United vs West Ham to give away.
The Times says Rooney needs to improve his big game goal ratio.
Rossobianchi looks at the own goal issue.
The Big Time blog writes with Glazer specs. Not good.
The Daily Mail FINALLY labels Steven Gerrard as a diver!
The Mirror criticises Liverpool fans for their Heysel related banner.
The Guardian has an exclusive interview with Sven following his time at Notts County.
Win a funny football chants book on RoM.
Man Utd News 24/7
The big time article is compeletely bollocks, this cunts are even not worth a defend.
Agreed Red Sam. He says the debt is a small price to pay? Well personally, I feel that the restrictions of being a PLC, is a small price to pay for not carrying this debt.
Also, Gill said the same thing to the supporters recently: How many titles have we won in the last 3 years. How insulting is that? So we should just bask in our glory and shut our mouths? Newflash, supporting United isn’t all about glory hunting.
As far as United not selling any player to ease the debt, well Ronaldo’s money hasn’t been completely reinvested into the team has it? I know we bought Valencia, Owen and Smalling, but we were supposed to have a tranfer budget for these transfers whether we sold Ronaldo or not.
Pretty bad to banter about Heysel.
I think its time the cult figures at united took the Green and Gold campaign to the next level. Scott for the sake of our club CHANGE THE RoM THEME to g&g. also the likes of MUST make extra efforts and bring the top figures to support this innitiative, imagine the sight of sir bobby , cantona, keano, sparky , bruce…. In green and gold.
Defending the Glazers is insane. The club is haemorrhaging money not because we’re unprofitable, but because of the Glazer debt. United could be making money for itself, we could be in a situation where the club is its own sugar daddy and has deep pockets of its own legitimately earned cash. But we’re losing money hand over fist and have gained, what? Nothing. The new owners have given us nothing and cost us tens of millions of pounds.
Thanks to the debt United are now in a situation where, if the unthinkable happens and we stop winning everything, or at least qualifying for everything, we could be ruined. I mean we’re at the very edge of being able to afford to manage the debt as it stands and we’re the most profitable football club in the world. If we stop earning that sort of money for whatever reason then that great cancerous debt is going to kill us. Not to mention the fact that the debt is hampering our ability to stay at the top by impeding our spending power.
What I hate the most about the whole deal is no matter what happens, no matter how quickly we get rid of the Glazers, they will have made out like bandits. They are in the process of robbing our club and when the time comes that they leave Old Trafford they will be hated by all and have more money in their pockets from their time here than any of us will see in a lifetime. Makes me sick.
The Times article implies that Rooney is not a big game player. And in my humble opinion, that is a bunch of BS. The man is double marked and he tracks back, and he creates.
That’s how they treat their only hope of glory in South Africa. Sad.
I’ll defend them, but I can only defend them if I have an audience with an inkling of intelligence and if proved wrong, totally or partially could actually admit to the fact instead of the usual anti america, i love che guavarra ramblings.
Just consider this, Glazers have bought something. If United fail they lose money, stripping the team of its assets means they lose money and taking money out of the club does not mean that. If they take out money, more than what is needed to pay off debts, which is what has been stated, what do you think they do with that money. Where does it go. Do they bank it, if they do GOOD then when a crisis comes around should there be a crisis they have money to fall back on, money to give to Sir Alex. Do they invest in other projects, GOOD those other projects create a winnings that can help United (Glazers). Do you all honestly think they spend that type of money on extra houses for themselves and sports cars, get real. You cant spend the likes of 120 million pounds on those type of items. Alot of people say well what about the Green Bay Packers (or the Fudge Packers as they are affectionately known) look how the Glazers have wrecked them. It is very difficult to compare american sports with the free for all european sports. They are governed by wages restrictions, they lot for players and player transfers which is common place here cannot happen as freely in America. Green Bay is an old team with history most of which is away back in the past, a bit like City or even Blackburn, Bolton etc. So if they do win a superbowl its much harder to carry on and win again and again. If an American team wins a major trophy, their players argue for higher wages and its noted they are champions and through players “unions” (to make it easier to understand involving unrestricted free agency, restricted free agency, tribuneral etc) they get wage increases. This can mean a team cant afford to keep them or another member of that team due to the wage restrictions, thus breaking up the team. The reason why Green Bay fail now is because they no longer have a star quarter back, they are few and far between and if any team is going to win they have one. By finnishing bottom they get to trade first in the draw for new players entering the league system from college, hopefully a new quarter back. Its a very complicated way of doing things that bring business skills into the world of sport.
I’ll stop there and see what you have to say.
I would have prefered someone coming in without needing to borrow large sums as anyone with a house knows, the interest repayments are the ball breakers. But saying that, these people the Glazers arent going to lose interest, because their interest doesnt lie in the football and they rightly steer clear of that, they are interested in the business side. Abromovichs yuri Zhirkov and Shevchenko hasnt really worked out and Im glad our owners dont take those decisions, Id hate Landon Donovan and Brad Fiedel at OT.
Go on your turn now. And keep it clean, discuss don’t abuse. Anyone who just abuses is a grade A City fan.
Off topic
but does anyone think Tom Heaton has any chance of making it here ? I have got mixed reaction regarding him but i don’t think he stands a chance since foster bottled it for the young keappers.
@RED SAM
While there are some issue in the article, for example their interest figures are wrong as the refinancing hasn’t really reduced the amount being paid as 2009 it was £41mill and 2008 £45mill and the bonds pay out £44mill.
However at its core much of that post is perfectly valid and shouldn’t be dismissed. People might hate the Glazers and people might be unable to understand the complexity of modern business finance BUT that doesn’t mean you should be an extremist and ignore anything which doesn’t fit in with MUST’s exaggerated stance. Have an open mind and listen to what MUST have to say but listen to the other side of the story and you will end up with a balanced viewpoint. You may very well still want the Glazers out with this viewpoint but atleast you won’t be acting like the Crazy guy walking around with a sandwich board declaring the “End is Nigh”.
@Costas
“Newflash, supporting United isn’t all about glory hunting.”
First of all lets be honest here, as football fans we are all ‘glory hunters’ to some degree. No matter which club a football fan supports if their team isn’t winning every game we aren’t happy and every loss can seem like the end of the world. And if we had our way we would probably bankrupt most of our clubs to bring short term success by spending big on players (Just look at the players people were demanding on here during the summer, most had combined transfer fees alone of well over 100mill BEFORE their wages and signing on fees.
And I think his point on titles may be more that to get these titles requires constant investment which if the situation was as dire as is made out wouldn’t be happening. You can do it for one season maybe (Like Pompey) but to keep it up and keep challenging and winning titles requires a either a sugar daddy or a good business plan.
“As far as United not selling any player to ease the debt, well Ronaldo’s money hasn’t been completely reinvested into the team has it?”
It hasn’t all but once again its not like a large chunk of the Ronaldo money wasn’t attempted to be spent
The Budgeted amount for transfers is £20mill a season (that’s not the max that can be spent as further funds are available) So Valencias 17mill and Obertans 3mill uses up that budget. So from Ronaldo we have spent
Smalling 10-14mill
Diouf UnDisc but will be atleast 2mill
On top of that we have confirmed bids for
Benzema – 35mill
Costa – 7mill (Raising to 14mill)
Dodo – 5-7mill (Which went quite due to the uproar at the time over Brazilian youngsters but who looks like he may very well join still as we paid for first option)
The deals didn’t go through but its not like the money wasn’t attempted to be spent. We also have varying stories coming out of Bayern which at the very least saw us enquire about Ribery and maybe even put an offer in. Who also knows the other players we expressed an official interest in but we don’t yet know about
@Doghouse
“They are in the process of robbing our club”
I’m going to repeat what Gill said to the Fan in Birmingham “‘Why are they leeches?”
What money have the taken out of the club that wasn’t taken out by the PLC or for that matter would be taken out by the Red Knights?
This whole thing really is starting to annoy me because people are losing all sense of perspective with the issue and they pick up on one person making a claim like they are ‘leeches’ and don’t stop to put it in context.
“Thanks to the debt United are now in a situation where, if the unthinkable happens and we stop winning everything, or at least qualifying for everything, we could be ruined”
As a PLC we were largely in the same situation. We are a club that’s setup to challenge for the top which means our budgets are also setup for that. If we miss out on a top 4 finish then its an issue no matter the ownership. Infact you could argue we are better placed now for that than we were as a plc, we have a much larger turnover from the ‘off field’ activities than we did before and have more cash in the bank to see us through a difficult season or two.
Wats the odds the daily mirror is the next paper banned in liverpoo. LUHG
@ got in a united shirt
before anything that name needs an explanation and i hope it got nothing to do with neville.
Secondly defending those cunts is PROHIBITED in this blog leave alone trying to educate on the shit thats american football. Who gives a damn if green bay packers dont have a decent centreback anyway ?
Lastly my american friend, we aint dealing with “IF” here coz they bottled it the first day they took control of the club.
No united legends would support the anti-glazer campain in public, I am afraid.. SAF would go mad.. He think it has a bad influence on his squad and so on.
red sam
Foster is one keeper, heaton is another, mate.. I will be a happy man if I never see Foster in a United-shirt again though..
@GoatinaUnitedShirtWantSomeofThat
You mean the Tampa Bay Buccs not Green Bay Packers
Ronaldo is an angel compared to this idiot Steven Gerrard:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVb2gbMtN3I
@ RED SAM… Heaton won’t make it, he didn’t even get in the Championship side 1st team when he was on loan…
I heard a report diouf cost 4 million. The boss mite be happy we’ve no match this weekend but im certainly not.
Sprite
mate you mean no united legend can support the campaign ? So they are not entitled to express their view if it’s against the club owners ?
The likes of sir bobby were here long before the glazers knew how to have an erection. so to come forward and claim saf would be mad if they supported the G2 is groundless. Besides the legends have got nothing to lose.
they all have very much respect for SAF.. Keano are saying many controversial things and would be my bet if anyone were to support our fans.. On the inside they all hate the glazers, even Gill..
Of course it depends if it is as a front man or just a small statement in a paper, Red Sam..
Willierednut
me also. Like i said it before i was hopping for a united game esp tommorow, so as to have a better excuse to skip valentine
now i will have to face it 
@Wakey
Smalling for 10-14 million mate? 7-8 million was the fee that was announced at the time. As far as the rest go, I believe something when I see it. Think about the Ljajic deal and how that collpased. I have always wondered about the Benzema enquiry. Why was Michael Owen our back up plan? With 35 million, we could surely find someone better?
“but to keep it up and keep challenging and winning titles requires a either a sugar daddy or a good business plan.”
That has been my arguement all along. That we had great success with our business plan as a PLC and in these times of economic crisis, we would have had a chanced to put some distance betwen ourselves and the likes of Chelsea and Livepool who depend on a sugar daddy.
My problem with Gill’s comment(and it is repeated in the article that Scott linked) is this: Yes, our success on the field is a major factor in our club having the global appeal it has. But, a huge chunk of United’s following has been there through the hard times. United fans are in love with what the club stands for more than the trophies we win. They should anyway. I know I wouldn’t mind if we stopped winning trophies. Nothing lasts forever.
Gill believes that our success is down to the Glazers investing in the squad every season? I think that’s taking some credit away from Sir Alex. A lot of money was invested into the club from 2001 to 2005(Ruud,Veron,Rio,Saha,Rooney,Heinze,Smith and Ronaldo among the players joining us), but the end result was one league title in 4 seasons. So, it’s not about the Glazers as much as it is about Sir Alex finally finding the correct formula.
Sprite am not interensted in just a “statement in a paper”. What we need is someone to spearhead this takeover not just people behind the scenes. We fans can’t do it alone therefore, we need people who truely are commited to this club those that defended the red jersey now to defend the red religion.
@ costas
nice post mate. compeletely spot on
red sam
at the end of the day the “the red knights” bid is 99% of the reason the Glazer would eventually leave, if they were to leave in the near future..
they have proven that they are only in it for the money, or do you need more proof? the only way to fight them is ca$h.
I really like the atmosphere at OT atm though, and think we fans should keep showing what we think of the Glazers to motivate potetial buyers.
i believe sir alex about having a transfer kitty he has no reason to lie and could keep quiet,city and real seriously fucked up the transfer market in the summer i can see were’s there’s no value. 60mill for ribery whos 28 and injury prone is a joke,all those top names were way over valued after the ronaldo transfer.
@ RED SAM.
The name GoatinaUnitedShirt is my tag, I often add little bits to it to like “crapping on my lawn”, “taking the piss”, “….” you get the picture. “WantSomeofThat” was left over from yesterday regarding a post by someone who went out on a rant, no full stops plenty of venom and anger and I just wanted what something of what he was on being a friday night and all. I didn’t get the connection with Neville, sorry, I would be the last to blast Gary Neville (or his brother for that matter) I am a No1 fan. For me as I am too young to remember the Busby Babes, Gary Neville is my Duncan Edwards so there is no ill feeling there.
Why is it PROHIBITED to discuss the Glazers and to have a differing opinion particularly if it doesn’t agree with the so called masses. There has never been a vote on the issue, there realistically could never be a vote on the issue, so the support that MUST has cannot really be gauged. There maybe 50% of all United fans who want the Glazers out, there could be 80%, we don’t know but surely a discussion should be made available. 100% of all that is Glazer cant be wrong as 100% of all of MUST cant be right, why can’t we find some common ground and discuss issues. I’m not defending the Glazers, because quite frankly I’ve never met them, never will, don’t know them and they don’t care much no doubt to meet and know me. However what I do care about is United, deeply and it effects every part of my mood. United Kids Wife In that order isn’t too far from the truth. I don’t like partisan rule, I like open and free discussion without predujice and persicution. United is great because, even though theres the minority that think Manchester United is only for people from Manchester, it has opened the door to the outside, embraced cultures without abusing that culture that has made it great. You wouldn’t get chants of Argentina Argentina in Tottenham for instance. If when all is said and done and its proved MUST was right and United fall because of the Glazers will the fans turn on each other. The refusal to buy United products, refusal to buy match tickets, season tickets etc will only speed up that possibility and it would be the fans causing the down fall not the owners no matter who they are.
Also Red Sam, I’m not an American, have never been there. I would like to go one day I guess, things you should see and all that. I don’t have any ill feelings towards the Americans and I honestly don’t see why anyone has, but no doubt you’ll enlighten me.
All I want is open discussion and the chance to put views across, these views are presented as counter arguments to yours, but that doesn’t mean they disprove your views, it means if they are countered it gives you a stronger case. Hence the asking of no silly abuse or criticisms that you rightly stuck to, being the gentleman you are.
Afternoon. God I am bored. No United in FA Cup. Getting sick of people saying “well its a good thing as we can rest”. Is it fuck good. Its shit. We should be in the FA Cup still and not beaten by those cunt’s. Anyway pretty chuffed for Pompey to be honest. Glad the Chav’s are through as it means more games and they can prevent Citeh from a trophy although Stoke could well do that today.
Kudos to the Mirror for printing an article about the murdering scum. Gerrard articles about him diving and now this . Whatever next? Are the media finally waking up? Some belting comments by MissBluenose on there putting the vermin rightly in their place.
Red Sam – I don’t particularly like the Glazers, not at all but you can’t say things like 2defending them on this site is prohibited”. What the fuck mate? So everyone should all just jump on the “glazer’s out” bandwagon with absolutely fuck all knowledge. As I say I ain’t defending them but at least I don’t come on just regurgitating shite from the red tops. How many of you on here have moaned over the last 3 years about the Glazers? Truthfully. It seems a lot crawled out the woodwork post Leeds FA Cup 3rd round.
I appears to me that if you have a “balanced viewpoint” you are seen as being a cunt and a Glazer fanboy.
@ King Eric 15.59. There has been an increase of anti-Glazers since the leads game or so it may appear. I think there are a lot of fans who haven’t liked the glazers and want him out for an awful long time mainly due to the constant increases in ticket prices and the infamous ACS. Many of them just didn’t know what to do about it. I mean we as supporters can’t even get everyone inside Old Trafford singing unless its a “big game” or a “special occasion.” It’s always been there but now with the Green and Gold campaign people are starting to say something. You will get some who jump on the bandwagon but thats inevitable. Everytime I’ve been to a game since glazers took over their ownership has always been mentioned and frowned upon during conversations with the people I go with and randoms. Then again I’ve only been coming on this site since Sky pulled the plug on uwsonline at the end of last season so you have to take my word for it!
@King Eric.
Well if its any consolation to you I’m not of that opinion. For me, knowledge is the most important thing, not only is it useful but makes you feel more of a part of that thing thats being discused. I feel alot of the support for MUST is the exact same type of support that is common all around the world, a need to belong to a group and concensus with a common goal. That certainly isn’t a balanced approach AND funnily enough (Im not laughing) always leads to missfortune after a big dose of mayhem.
United will never die, the Glazers cannot will that and of course they wont. United is too big to go down, it means too much to Manchester politically, it raises too much revenue, gives too much to public wellbeing when times are hard. There will be an absolute flood of investors and suiters should all go to the dogs. The Glazers may take out x ammount of money but they’ll also put x ammount of money back in when its needed. Alot of people could do alot worse than read the article on the Big Time Blog. Try and read it with subjective glasses on, we’re not in a bad way, we will win the league, we will be top 4 of the champions league and if were beaten by Milan, devastating as it will be, jesus we are talking about Milan. The Leeds exit wasn’t down to the Glazers but to a few under performers, what we should be saying is that was the first time we exited from the FA Cup in the 1st round under Sir Alex NOT The Glazers are ruinning us weve turned into Barnsley. Its sometimes good to be knocked out so early as a great record can be observed rather than be a forgotten acchievement thats taken for granted. I know for a fact, United wont get knocked out of the cup in the 1st round (1st round for us) for another 10 years.
I said some time back and i repeat it, the chat about the Glazers gets more boring and divides the fans so we are better not talking about it. They are in power so they can do whatever they like. My only concern is whether it is affecting the transfer budget.There are points that support it as well as go against it. This has been discussed many times before and getting boring now.best thing is, lets wait till the summer and we will get the answer, no point speculating what the truth maybe.
AIG
Mate, while our concern may only be the transfer budget, think about the match going fans who have to shell out so much money season after season for tickets!
I am not a huge supporter of anything that can bring the club’s success to the brink but I can see LUHG’s point. All I have to say is, we don’t need to worry about losing our club as long as Fergie is there. Once/if he goes, then no holds barred.
As far as Im concerned and Im sure its the same for many others as well, when a fan is confronted with another fan that brings up the Glazers its best just to nod and smile, agree with them and deep down hope they go away. When I think about United I think about the match, the singing, the atmosphere, the beer NOT the continuous whining about something I have no legal power to change, don’t have the knowledge or ability to change it if I could. I try and enjoy the possitives rather than cap in hand trying to drum up support for a pointless motion which only brings you down. A MUST supporter is like an ugly bird, you dont say anything to their face but once theyve given you their number/clap trap you go back to your beer and enjoy all thats United. Untill the next one . …….. bore.
Imagine though if MUST bought out the Glazers though, sod the financial turmoil. I’d be worried about poor Fergie having to have egos like Rubery, Kaka and Benzema in the dressing room, players he may not even want, I certainly dont.
I think to be fair, most people can make up their own mind on the glazers, dont think they need to read the papers to know there not good for the club. LUHG
@Anon
Hi mate.
i know that but the thing is we cant do anything for that.As i said the Glazers will do things as they want. I have not seen many fans here complaining about the ticket prices. Guess they dont have much problem with it.The transfer budget can directly affect the success on the field and hence is the most important thing.The other things like ticket prices, debt repayment are solely in Glazers hands so we cant do anything much and they will affect the long term future of the club, the transfer budget can affect the immediate future of the club.
@Anon
You mention what the fans have to shell out to go to a match. Read the The Big Time Blog (link at top). that is the price of going to a football match nowadays, its no good arguing that a Nintendo Wii shouldn’t cost such a such or a pint of milk such and such. 15 years ago English teams were competing in most cases amongst themselves and didnt stand a chance against the Europeans but to be top of the pile investment takes place and you have to pay for that. Youve also got to put it in perspective, wages and benefit have increased at a far higher percentage than match day tickets.
As for you comment about when Fergie goes, I have to ask the question who will win the league then assuming its not Manchester United. That team wont have a Fergie but they got to the top. When its time for Manchester United and Fergie to part there will be a clamber for the best manager to take over and there isnt a manager in the world who wouldnt leave there job to take this one. That includes Anchelotti, Manchini, Guardiola etc. Why would they leave, because they have a board room that keeps its nose out of the footballing side, a solid foundation, the best fans, the greatest history. There is not a manager who has a dream of fullfilling his footballing ethos who couldn’t build on those foundations – so that manager will come whoever it may be.
@AIG Alex is God
Hi mate, do you believe Fergie when he says there isn’t value for money or do youbelieve there is a lack of cash.
For the first time in ages Ive looked at whos available in the world of football and said nope nothing i want, so i believe Sir Alex. The so called big names all moved on except those who play for Barca and they beleive their at the best club anyways. Its easy finding players to improve your squad when your the Liverpools or Tottenhams or Citys of this world but when your at the top or bleeding close, there isnt much to chose from. Even now i havent got a clue who would be a great signing in the summer and i just dont have the time and knowledge about promising talents of the future like Macheda, Diouf, Smalling and how to find them like Sir Alex did.
I agree,
we need discussion on the Glazier topic,
not ranting.
Off the top of my head, yes they are Bastards imo
BUT…
If we had a choice between being debt free as a PLC and debt free as a Privately Owned Club – the preference is to be Privately Owned.
So
in my humble opinion, its a question of at what cost have we made this transition? is the mountain of debt we’ve been burdened with worth it?
thats what needs to be discussed.
…
Why is Gill shut down and/or ignored when he consistantly claims that our debt is 360 million? WHO HAS PROOF OF THIS 700 MILLION DEBT? if the argument against Gill is soooo strong, who on here can prove we are in 700 million debt? Am I missing something? even in that article about the Brum Student, the article was full of speculation as opposed to a blow by blow of what was actually SAID. If the conversation was 2 minutes or so why was Gill only quoted in 2 odd sentances? WORD FOR WORD WHAT EXACTLY WAS HIS REPONSE ?? Perhaps there are more papers to sell if his arguement isn’t fully communicated – that article could have stated word for word what he said instead of paraphasing. But again, if MUST are so sure the debt is 700 MILLION wheres the proof In PLAIN ENGLISH? If the whole campaign is built around 700 million surely someone should be able to break it down into a couple paragraphs if not for the benefit of their own campaigns success??? How are they convincing supporters to Join MUST without being able to prove GILL IS LYING ABOUT THE 360 MILLION??? Nothing would fuck me off more than finding out this 700 million figure is nothing more than scaremongering. I just want the truth, does that make me sympathetic to the Glaziers – NO – it just makes me sympathetic to common sense.
…
SO WHERE DID THE 700 MILLION FIGURE COME FROM?
I really would love to know,
for me, finding out who is telling the truth about the amount of debt is the best place to start. So is it Gill with 360m or is it MUST with 700m ?
They both cant be right.
In other news, the Daily FAIL are today reporting that the 20 million deal for Vidic is eminent, and go as far as saying Vidic is selling his house. If its true he wants to go then fuck it, let him go. We paid 7, he’s done a good job while he was here, we’ll sell him for 13 profit. Not exactly Bad for a 28 year old. I’ll always support Alec in his decision to let unhappy players leave with minimum fuss rather then pay them to stay, and I also have faith he’ll find an adequate replacement, he always does. We need fresh up our defence as its the oldest part of our team – Wes Brown, Rio, obviously Neville… and Namanja is nearly 29. The good news is we have EVRA who is outstanding, and we need to keep faith in Evans, the Twins, Smalling, etc, and I still expect Alec to buy an estabished new defender in the summer. So the future isn’t exactly Grim if Vidic leaves. OF COURSE THIS IS ASSUMING THE STORY IS TRUE – BUT I DO GET THE FEELING VIDIC IS ON THE WAY OUT. His Wife isn’t exactly a big fan of our Great British weather, is she?
@GoatinaUnitedShirtWantSomeofThat
I have my doubt both ways. Firstly in the summer SAF couldnt get Benzema, ok, But wasnt there anyone better than Owen for that price available. hard to believe that.SAF has said there is no value for money, cant disagree with that. However things arent going to change dramatically in the near future with Real,Madrid and Chelsea looking to sign players too and SAF has paid over the top money for players before so why not now?
The other side is if SAF really has got less funds he can walk out any time.
As i said in the summer the picture will become totally clear
Just asking out of curiosity, why does your user name always have ‘goatinaunitedshirt’ in it.
Glazers To Suck Out a Further Half a Billion From Man Utd, Or 70p in Every Old Trafford Pound
Posted by Tom Dunmore on 1/22/10 • Categorized as Politics and Economics
We’re sorry that it has been all Manchester United debt all the time this week, but it’s been a key topic we’ve addressed here for years, and it’s both sad and shocking to see every last concern about the club’s future under the ownership of the Glazers realised as their refinancing effort has been put under the microscope.
What has been difficult for those of us with no training in the deliberately obscure arts of high finance wizardry is to understand in plain language what the Glazers’ latest bond issue means for Man Utd, both in explaining the state of the club’s finances (which have never before under the Glazers had to be so openly explained in the fine print of the bond issue’s prospectus) and in what the future holds now.
The best source has been the Financial Times, and one post on the Alphaville blog brilliantly dissects the situation and puts the numbers into language we can all understand, and which might make United fans throw up in their throats.
To put it plainly: the equivalent of 70% of all matchday income is going to pay the interest on the debt from the Glazers’ takeover, to go out as dividends to the Glazers (!) and to be spent on “management fees and expenses” to the Glazers, which will total over half a billion pounds at the minimum (at current profit levels) by 2017.
So even if the club continues to run an operating profit for the next seven years — which will be dependent on continuing successful performance at the highest level — the club will likely be saddled with the same amount of debt by 2017 and the Glazers will have sucked out half a billion pounds from the club. Even if the club somehow makes a lot more money than expected, half of that will go to the Glazers as well. Oh, and if the club spirals downward and operating profit no longer covers these costs, the bond issue allows the Glazers to sell off assets including Old Trafford to pay down their own debt.
Read the whole thing for the full explanation, but the crux of the matter is as follows:
The small print of Red Football Ltd’s bond prospectus shows that the Glazers have structured the issue to allow them to take at least £20m of dividends out of the club every year. An additional, so far unnoticed, clause allows a further £25m to be paid out in dividends at any time. Add these payments to the £70m already known about, the Carrington deal and “management fees” and at least £220m of the club’s cash will flow directly to the Glazers between 2010 to 2017.
With interest on the bonds and the extra cost of leasing our training ground back, the total that will be sucked out of the club between now and 2017 will exceed half a billion pounds, to add to the huge cost already imposed by the Glazers.
Let’s go over that again. The small print of the bond issue means that the Glazers get to suck out 50% of Consolidated Net Income from the club every year; if profits hold steady, that’d be £23m a year until 2017.
In fact, this bond issue is deliberately structured in such a way, that (assuming they can hold profits where they are) this is the minimum sum they can take each year. If there is any rise in profits from better TV deals or higher prices for supporters, half the extra money can be paid out in dividends.
Adding management fees, expenses and the interest on the bonds, every year 79% of the operating profits of the club will be taken out.
Or perhaps we should turn it around the other way and look at it from the fans’ point of view because this outflow is no less than 70% of all United’s matchday revenues. 70 pence from every pound spent by supporters on match tickets, food and drink, programmes, even car parking, and 70 pence from every pound spent on corporate boxes and executive facilities will go straight out of the door in dividends, fees and interest.
79% of the operating profits taken out. Or what amounts to 70% of matchday revenue, the money fans are directly spending at Old Trafford.
And the kicker?
By 2017, despite having pumped more than half a billion pounds out of Manchester United, the club will still be saddled with the £500m of debts it has today.
Many supporters, commentators and people in the wider football world have been astonished by the revelations concerning the Glazers ownership of Manchester United that have come to light in the last week.
This paper demonstrates that the pillaging of the club over the last four years by the owners is set to continue and indeed accelerate in the years to come. Nobody can be in any doubt; not the fans, the Football Association, the Premier League, UEFA, the government or indeed the manager or players that what is being allowed to happen is nothing less than a violent assault on one of Britain’s best known sporting institutions. There can no longer be any excuses by the football authorities to not immediately and urgently intervene (through rule changes if necessary) to prevent people, who have no interest in football beyond their own greed, from acting in this way.
http://pitchinvasion.net/blog/2010/01/22/glazers-to-suck-out-a-further-half-a-billion-from-man-utd-or-70p-in-every-old-trafford-pound/
Can I ask where the article is condemning United “fans” for chanting about wanting Glazer dead?
If Liverpool fans were to chant about Munich, 10 articles would be here in a week.
Total hypocrisy it seems.
Glazer security forces crack down on dissenters:
“On the 6th Feb 2010 I was attending the match with my son (11yrs) and was using season tickets belonging to my grandparents.
During the second half of the match I was approached by a steward who told me in an aggressive manner to “sit down and stop singing anti-glazer songs”.
I did agree to sit down, although I questioned “why?” as I was exercising my right to freedom of speech.
Not long after this minor incident I was approached yet again by a different steward (wearing orange coat) who told me to follow him along with my son down to the concourse. It was here that he explained I had verbally abused the first steward that approached me and that my version of events was needed.
Once there both my son and I were forced to stand against a wall and felt immediately intimidated as we were surrounded by stewards. I denied any form of abuse towards any of the stewards, yet felt as though I could have been talking in a different language as no one wanted to listen to either my son or I.
I was then asked to produce my tickets for them to check. I obliged as I had nothing to hide.
My grandfather’s ticket was then confiscated and we were told in no uncertain terms were not welcome back and to leave the premises. We left the ground immediately.
I am writing to let you know how infuriated I feel regarding this matter.I have been coming to Old Trafford for 30yrs and my son has been coming for the past 5. I feel totally let down considering the amount of money I have paid into Old Trafford.
Manchester United are a huge part of my life and I have followed them overseas on countless occasions.
I would like my grandfather’s ticket to be returned so that they can watch the remaining games of the season.
I am NO thug and neither is my son”
http://www.imusa.org/newsarticle.php?id=250
No doubt Paul Parker, Paul H, Wakey & co will tell us how wonderful it was of the stewards to kick these dangerous hardcore extremists out of Old Trafford.
SteRDLK, how dare you compare Malcolm Glazer to the Munich victims?
That is disgusting.
@Paul Parker
I also get the sense that Vidic is on his way out. But it shouldn’t be this easy for a player to leave United. I can’t imagine that he is our first player who has had a problem with the weather in England. It would be a huge mistake to let Vidic go at a point when Rio is 31-32 and his overall fitness is still an issue. Logic says that we should make the transition from Rio-Vidic to Evans-Vidic over the next 2 years. Not build our entire defence from the beginning.
@AIG alex is god.
My tag is GoatinaUnitedShirt – the add ons that I sometimes put at the end are to describe the days feelings. Goat in a United Shirt is me, I am a goat, stubborn, truculent, the typical trates of a goat. Tell me the skys blue I’ll argue its red, tell me JFK was a saint and I’ll tell you Nixon gave him that title, tell me to hate the Glazers and I’ll make them out to be just ok. I am a goat, simple as. The United shirt is easy, I wear it under my suit, I wear it in the bath, I wear it ontop of the wife, I wear it to court. Hope that clears it up for you mate.
I think Benzema could have been a useful signing, but at the end of the day he wanted to go to the Galacticos. It is a strange pull I guess to sign for a team that lashes out huge ammounts of money all in one go. I suppose he was aware of the possible success that a team with so many superstars would bring and what that can do for his image. Its not a decision I would make as I prefer family atmosphere, history, team play rather than “must be better than Barca at all costs”, history (allbeit based around domination of lesser teams and showing off) and individual ability and cut throat, back stabbing lifestyle. I suppose to a lesser extent the same reasons why Essien went to Chelsea and Mikel and why Santa Cruz went to City instead of Spurs.
But not all big money signings pay off, Ronaldo wasnt a 30 million case nor was Vidic, nor Evra. The price tag to me is an indication of how wrong we were not to spot the talent sooner rather than an indication of the level of his talent and a must have accessory.
@Costas
Don’t worry mate if Vidic does go there is no point keeping him if life isnt what he wants. I suppose we run the risk of all foreign players wanting to leave after a time to try something new. For a true Mancunian theres only one club to play for so why would you want to try somewhere else, thats only natural but for a forreigner they are naturally torn between allegiances. The age issue for the defence is not such a worry but at the same time we dont want the same problem at the back that we had with the Beckham, Keane, Scholes and Giggs issue. That being all the players at comparable age all likely to stop playing together at the same time if there playing days together are left to run. Thats why Beckham was shipped, the Keane, and as for the other two well theyre just top drawer. There is always a risk of Vidic leaving, because he is forreign, and lesser a risk about Brown and Ferdinand so start the ball rolling with him rather than have it forced upon us when we dont want it to happen. We have adequate cover in Brown and Evans, Oshea can fill in and there is also Cathcart and de Laet. Im not worrying. A nice return on a player, an excellent player and some money. United wont suffer.
anyone watching the Ireland France rugby match.? Ireland’s playing like shyt!
@GoatinaUnitedShirtWantSomeofThat
Thanks mate. You have explained the meaning of your user name very well.
Agree, not all the big name signings pay off but even signing talented players will be a problem now.Barca, Madrid and Chelsea also will show an intrest.So we may have to pay over the top price for players who have talent but are not the finished product.Take the smalling case. Arsenal were intrested too and it was said he was worth 7 million. Now it is said we signed him for 10-14 million having to pay extra money to see off Arsenal. Imagine Madrid or Barcelona coming in for the same player and we can be sure we will come out 2nd best in a bidding war.
Also a player who wants to blossom and improve every time will join United and not real or Chelsea or City.Take Valencias example. he rejected Madrid to join us, knowing joining Real would affect his progress while he can improve under SAF’s guidance at united
@Fred
I would like to think he wasnt trying to compair the Glazers to the Munich victims but rather put his point across that death isnt a laughing matter and the finality of it shouldnt be wished on anyone no matter what your opinion is of them. I think he tried to put the point across that from YOUR perspective (assuming your siding with the singing – appologies if your not) that wishing the death of your enemy is similar to Liverpool celebrating the death of their enemy. Completely and utterly tasteless and worthy in my opinion of a third world brain (not a derisery term of a person from the third world and his brain but a level of development of that persons brain).
also @Fred.
I hope that story isnt true about the fan and his child because that is wrong. You should never put a child in that type of situation. I certainly hope this situation gets investigated, Call in the police as as far as I am aware a steward is just that, a steward, not the police. They are there for safety not for administering of punishment or prosecution, thats for security. I think a crack down of tasteless songs is a good thing and the father should not be singing such a thing with a kid in tow, that can constitute child abuse and that is why a steward may have asked for calm and singled him out. What happened next is just shocking.
@GoatinaUnitedShirtWantSomeofThat
Well, we are always going to find two players to put at the heart of the defence. However it’s very difficult to find two world class defenders who will develop an understanding like that. I didn’t have any delusions that the Rio-Vidic partnership had 5 more seasons in it. And we reached the point where playing just one of the two made our defence more secure. So after the Rome final, I thought it was time to start using Evans and Vidic more. Now, if Vidic leaves, you wonder how much Rio and Evans have in them as a pair. And to be honest Evans and Brown haven’t clicked well together. Could Smalling be the key in all this? I hope so.
As far as Vidic’s alleged reasons for wanting to leave, what can I say. I understand that living in a foreign country can lead to all sorts of problems, but it’s rarely enough reason to leave a club. Mind you, this kind of rumors are often usen in order to bump their client’s salary. But it doesn’t look like United have any intention to do that.
*often used by agents* I meant
@AIG alex is god
Thats the name of the game mate, all part of the fun and excitement. I’d be worried if we bought a handful of players nobody else wanted. The price is an indication of his value (to others), not how good he’ll turn out. As for the if Barca was interested or even Madrid. It will actually be harder for them to sign players now as new players will see there is little chance in breaking into the squad with such talent available to them. Its all swings and roundabouts.
For what its worth I AM a match going fan. Every home game and a fair few aways.
GoatinaUnitedShirt, you don’t even know what they were singing. It could have been the fairly innocuous “We want Glazer out.”
@Fred
No mate you are right I don’t know what they were singing, I jumped to conclusions. I appologise and hope the mess gets sorted out.
@King Eric
For what its worth, its worth alot mate Id give both my legs to get to watch as many matches as you do, thank god its all seating knowadays.
nowadays
@GoatinaUnitedShirtWantSomeofThat
Agree mate. We will sign some and miss out on some players.As i said the summer will give us all the answers including the one that is gaining momentum about Vidic’s future.
Paul Parker – Regarding defenders there are reports again that we are still tracking Simon Kjaer.
How fucking long are the bitters gonna get away with such slow piss poor awful displays yet still get a result? Stoke can do this. They are fucking woeful. They looked much better under Leslie.
SteRDLK – Oh come on pal. Comparing songs about Glazers death cannot be compared to the victims of Munich. A bit sick that.
aig – Hi mate. OK then aside from Benzema just WHO was worth buying, striker wise that was available and willing to join United?
PS Re the Chavs’ Do not be fooled into thinking that the Russian mafia are gonna be spending big. Tell me. Who was the last BIG NAME signing and how much was he? Zhirkov?
aig – Bit contradictory mate your post at 18.33. In one breath you say that Fergie may be lieing concerning available money yet you the say that we paid 10-12 MILLION for Smalling who is a rookie really in the Jan window. Not having a go mate just saying is all.
@King Eric
Hi.
Who was worth buying?. Well i have said Dzeko many times. Yes he said he wanted to play for Milan but they couldnt afford him and he wouldnt have had much problem in joining us because it would have been a step up from Wolfsburg.There surely must have been options. Chamakh was available for a nominal fee,pretty decent striker. I cant believe that SAF didnt have any other name on the list when it came to signing strikers if we couldnt get Benzema. Surely there must have been a few more names
Fred Said:
No doubt Paul Parker, Paul H, Wakey & co will tell us how wonderful it was of the stewards to kick these dangerous hardcore extremists out of Old Trafford.
_____________
C’mon son, Fuck Off, what have I said to make you or anybody else think I would support the stewards for kicking out those supporters. Don’t be a Twat, all I asked for was PROOF that our debt was 700 million. So answer that and pull your skirt down, alright?
….
I read your post stating 70% is being taken from Matchday income, very interesting, not what I asked for, but interesting none the less. But for an unbiased supporter such as myself, it raises far more questions then it answers, for instance, now I know 70p of every pound is going to the Glaziers, I’d like to now know where the other 30p goes. BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, FOR THAT 70P TO MEAN ANYTHING TO ME IM GONNA NEED TO KNOW WHAT PERCENTAGE OF MATCHDAY INCOME WAS TAKEN OUT UNDER A PLC FOR THE SAME PURPOSES. without that information to compare the 70p to, those details you put up are neither here nor there are they? And if you think me asking these questions makes me Pro-Glazier, you need a break from the internet to get some fresh air mate.
….
Simply put, I don’t wanna read ANTI-GLAZIER rhetoric just like I don’t wanna read PRO-GLAZIER rhetoric. I just want the facts, go back and read my first post. If everybody is screaming blue murder about 700 million debt then for FUCK SAKE can somebody please tell me where this figure comes from, im not taking anybodies word for it. CERTAINLY NOT RED KNIGHTS FROM LONDON. to be honest at the moment, GILL saying 360 million is a far more reliable source then…. well, nobody really… which is my point, who has proof of a 700 million debt because at the moment it sounds unfounded. So less bollocks and more facts please Fred, suggesting im Pro-Glazier is sad on your part considering im just asking for information. Sort it out.
aig – Just a quick one as second half starting. Really don’t think Dzeko would be the answer. Great finisher but fuck all pace. What would happen and how would you feel if we spent 30 million and he flopped? I tend to trust Fergie’s judgement, its usually bang on.
off topic – I really wish Capello would shut his cake hole. Telling Fergie to make sure Rooney is fresh for the summer! Get fucked, who pays his wages pal?
Wakey – you can paper over cracks and defend th glazers buisness model with all sorts of reasons when the glazers buisness model is so flawed its has flawd has the twin towers. but the fact remians
- the cup scheme was a total disgrace to match going fans.
- their disregard and their behavior to the clubs staff in general trying threaten to sack staff who go against the glazers behavior which is justifyed.
- how they dont even let united legends watch games which has been a tradition and a thankyou from the club now thats been stopped
- trying to silence the fans green and gold flags when it was what uniteds origonal colors were and they know the fans are right
- they continue to hike ticket prices
- the debt never gets payed off they are paying interest by using the clubs profits and many other sources, which should be used to strengthen the squad and expand old trafford
- their sand castle model is goign to fail, for the leaches to expect the club to keep up the level of success by taken the clubs profits when the squad has been weakened when football goes in cycles.
the fact remians football is give and take and the fact remains they have taken more than given, they want to have their cake and eat it 2 and in football that is not possible.
Chamakh ? Oh come on mate. 50 goals in 7 years.
@King Eric
I am saying the picture is not clear and there are theories that support the fact that SAF has money and also theories that say he hasn’t enough money to spend. Just stating them. The smalling transfer was unexpected and came out of the blue surprising all of us including me who thought that he didnt have money. But it was Arsenal we were competing with and not Chelsea or Madrid.
Many things as i have said in my above post say he dosent have enough money.I am not saying he DOSENT have money,i am saying he dosent have ENOUGH money and certainly not all the Ronaldo money
All i mean is there are things that support and deny both possibilities on money being available.The summer will give us the answers to those questions.
Costas Said,February 13th, 2010 @18:05
@Paul Parker
I also get the sense that Vidic is on his way out. But it shouldn’t be this easy for a player to leave United. I can’t imagine that he is our first player who has had a problem with the weather in England. It would be a huge mistake to let Vidic go at a point when Rio is 31-32 and his overall fitness is still an issue. Logic says that we should make the transition from Rio-Vidic to Evans-Vidic over the next 2 years. Not build our entire defence from the beginning.
_____________
Yeah, I agree, but only in an ideal world mate.
we’ve got players like Evra bleeding his heart for United, while Vidic/his agent aren’t exactly shooting down all speculation. Can you imagine Evra being this quiet? Maybe its all hype but my gut feeling is Vidic wants some sun and fame in Spain. IF HE IS ON HIS WAY OUT personally I don’t think we should be trying to stop him any more then we have already been – Alec saying “I couldnt tell you” regarding his injury doesn’t bode well at all. If he does want OUT having him around isn’t going to help us at all, and we can’t be held ransom but any player. I hope im wrong and I hope he really does have a mystery illness Alec still can’t tell us anything about. But to be honest I think his heads been turned, and once that happens your better off cashing in and replacing. Vidic is class, but like so many of our players, he became class WITH UNITED. If we get anything near 20 million for him or more, I trust Alec will find a great replacement. After all, VIdic was a great find lest we forget, we’ll find somebody else – if he wants to go. BTW, City are having a tough time seeing off Stoke, wouldn’t be surprised if they nicked an equalizer. Ha they just did !!!!!
@King Eric
I have seen Dzeko over the last 8-10 months. he is much quicker than people think. Not as quick as Rooney, Nani or valencia but he has got good pace.His finishing is deadly and is a good physical presence up front to partner Rooney. Wolfsburg are not demanding 30 million for him. he is available for 22-25 million. Not bad for a 23 year old(to be 24 next month).
Chamakh hasnt scored many goals but has been good for Bordeaux in the last 2-3 seasons and gets involved in a lot of attacking play for them. Would have been available for 5-6 million.
Fergie’s judgement. Well who can argue with that. He does get it right most of the times although the Berbatov and Owen signings may go down as one of his not so good signings. Diouf may be a gem though.
aig alex is god – I totaly agree and in the summer we will find out if fergie will strengten the CF position which is desperatly short of fire power. not many positions need buying but if united get a striker the right striker that fits into uniteds way of playing united will be unstoppable.
King Eric Said,February 13th, 2010 @19:12
Paul Parker – Regarding defenders there are reports again that we are still tracking Simon Kjaer.
How fucking long are the bitters gonna get away with such slow piss poor awful displays yet still get a result? Stoke can do this. They are fucking woeful. They looked much better under Leslie.
_________
Haha, agreed, see my last post mate, I was JUST about to say they look good for an equalizer too and BANG they scored. City were better off under Hughes to be honest, this other fella isn’t really bringing anything new is he? Thats what happens when you purchase a team full of mercenaries – the managers neck is always on the line – it won’t be too long before City Players are welcoming another new manager, claiming he will be the difference… pathetic really.
…
Not sure who Kjaer is, I’ve only heard about Dodo really, but I’ll have a look. can’t say it enough, Alec and his team are so consistent with their scouting and transfers I look forward to Vidic’s replacement whoever it is. Of course, thats only if Vidic does go anywhere. Time will tell. I’d like to see Smalling thrown in at the deep end, just to see how he does at centre half.
rtnk
The problem is we do have players who can make it at United and cover up in most areas.Anderson can do well and if he develops as expected when he was brought he can become a CAM that we need to replce Scholes. nani is doing well and if he continues we wont miss the wing aspect of Ronaldos play. Evans is surely going to become a top class centre back and rafael can replace Neville.The striker department is the only one where we need someone.Diouf may do it but with Berba and Owen not having done as well as expected and Welbeck and macheda still needing some time we do need someone
Man City seriously are a joke. Richest club in the world and cant even fill their stadium.48,000 is the capacity and the attendance today is 28,019.Possibly their recent shite style of play has turned the supporters off.
Go Stoke!
@Paul Parker
I see what you mean mate. I am a bit old school and I am not too fond of how footballers work these days. You either pay them what they want, or they start to develop all kinds of strange tendencies. They don’t like the weather, they want to play for their boyhood club, they feel that Liverpool is the club for them(in fairness Heinze was right. He and Benithez were made for each other). Now, they even lose the plot after they get dropped for a home game against Hull and go AWOL for days! I don’t want us to give in to ransom, but what can you do? A nasty habit is beginning to develop and who’s to say tomorrow it won’t be Rooney or Nani in Vidic’s place?
I don’t know what’s the status of Vidic’s injury. There is a very possible scenario that our medical team have fucked up, like they tend to do. However, if we are going to sell him, 20 million is nothing. Not when Lescott cost as much.
@Costas
A fee for Smalling was never actually announced. What we do know is that Arsenal had a last minute offer turned down at 12mill and that Arsenal claim we paid 2million more than they were willing to and the papers all reporting a 10-14mill fee. Now the upfront fee could very well be in the 8mill range with the rest being conditional but the conditions need to be taken into account as you have to assume they will be met.
The Ljajic deal collpase wasn’t really finacial issue, it was a work permit issue. The only finacial consieration to it is why pay 12million for a player who it will take 12-18months in the best case to get his WP.
I would assume with Owen it was a case of Benzema was first and only choice as the rest had contracts that were allowing their clubs to hold buyers to a ransom (I mean Barca/Real had offers for £45million turned down for villa and Auguero is also in the £45mill range) and Owen was seen as a stop gap to give Welbeck and Macheda (and Diouf) time to mature OR for someone else to become available.
“distance betwen ourselves and the likes of Chelsea and Livepool who depend on a sugar daddy”
Liverpool hardly have a Sugar Daddy. And our profits as a PLC were LESS than the profits we make now AFTER servicing the debt so we would have struggled to compete on the PLC’s income.
“Gill believes that our success is down to the Glazers investing in the squad every season”
The article doesn’t give context to his comment. However what needs to be remembered is that alot of the comments towards the Glazers has focused on how the Glazers aren’t giving the club and SAF the required support and I’m sure its a reference to that. The club is a unit and no individual part guarentees success. It needs the players to perform, the Manager to manage the players right, the coaches to get the best out of them, the scouts to find the right players to bring in, the board to make the right off field decisions and the owners to provide a solid business to support it. One part fails and it all comes down. I don’t think David Gill is someone who would take any credit from SAF and the Players for the parts that in the last few years they have done almost perfectly
“I know I wouldn’t mind if we stopped winning trophies”
Sorry but I just don’t believe you. I suspect that if we hadn’t won anything for the last 3 years you would be here moaning and demanding new players and changes. You and pretty much everyone else would still be supports of the club but you wouldn’t be happy.
Its like MUST, they have complained about the various sale proposals in the past, they complained about the becoming a PLC and would almost certainly start complaining about the Red Knights once they realised they are in it to make a profit and MUST have little power to infulence things.
Fellas, I found a link for the Gill conversation.
…
To be perfectly honest I understand the ANGER of the supporters asking the questions, but jesus fucking christ ASK A QUESTION AND SHUT THE FUCK UP WILL YOU? ONE MOUTH TWO EARS REMEMBER???? Rule number one when conducting an interview, if you listen to an interview and the INTERVIEWER is talking far far more then the person being QUESTIONED then its a piss poor interview. We’ve all seen our players interviewed and they can’t get a word in edgeways because some mug is far too interested in their own voice to allow answers to be given. Thats what this was like. BUT like I said, I understand the supporters frustration but for the love of God tone it down a bit aye? Be responsible enough to conduct a HARD interview without shouting and talking over Gill.
…
Anyway, listen to the audio for yourself and you’ll see what I mean or maybe not, maybe you’d froth at the mouth too? GILL CAN BE STRAPED INTO A GUILLOTINE AND RUTHLESSLY QUESTIONED WITHOUT THE INTERVIEWER SO MUCH AS RAISING HIS VOICE. SOMEBODY NEEDS TO PASS OUT A COPY OF FROST V NIXON JESUS. I HOPE THE NEXT PERSON TO INTERVIEW HIM TAKES A FUCKING BREATH AND COMPOSES THEMSELVES FIRST.
…
The worst part is, if GILL REALLY IS LYING he’ll hope that everybody who questions him is as emotional as this guy. The Guy was being so aggressive that Gill had every right to refuse to answer. But he didn’t he actually tried to get a few words in edgeways. Seriously, somebody with the composure of FROST needs to be asking the questions next time, this interview was a missed opportunity imo.
…
Facts people, never mind rhetoric or passion, JUST STICK TO THE FACTS PEOPLE ARE NOT STUPID, more often then not in the cold light of day FACTS stir emotions more than a RANT will. So just give the facts to curious humble supporters like myself, don’t try and shout us down and label us a Glazier Lover because we’re not as QUICK TO PRAISE RED KNIGHTS as others seem to be…. this so called interview was just a RANT to be honest and its a shame really. Still definitely worth a listen if you haven’t heard it. I really want GILL TO BE GRILLED but this is not it.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/audio/2010/feb/12/manchester-united-david-gill
BTW, Well done STOKE !!!!
@Anon
Ticket price rises aren’t great and I think the ACS was PR mistake BUT the problem is as the PLC the prices were way too cheap. Our main rivals were charging alot less and while the London arguement could be brought up for Chelsea and Arsenal (Although the London Tax doesn’t account for all the difference both then and now)it couldn’t for Liverpool. Even now our ticket prices are still cheaper than our rivals. Matchday is where most clubs make the majority of their money and unless you have another form of funding to offset it then rises as inevitable when they are below the going rate. If we look at Spain for example the likes of Barca and Real can keep Ticket prices lower due to 3 reasons
1) The ‘Fan Ownership’ Scheme that gives them a vote of the president brings in £22million which goes towards giving the ‘Fan Owners’ discounted tickets
2) Barca and Real can sell their own TV rights. They get amounts that United can only dream of
3) The presidental elections every 5 years requires the candiates to pay to run and then has to guarentee hundreds of millions in investment to support the club
Its a catch 22 situation do we want to be able to keep our top players and buy more top players or do we want cheap tickets. Even if we had no interest payments or any alternative payments such as dividends we would struggle to do both.
@Paul Parker
What we can be sure of is that the figure isn’t 700mill. The debt has been being serviced so the figure has not risen from the initial amount borrowed. They seem to get the 700mill from the purchase price + the interest paid. I’m more inclined personally to believe Gill who in his position and the fact he was the man given the job to sell the bond will know the figures (and wouldn’t have been allowed to lie in the bond briefings)
re:Vidic
I think it depends on Vidic himself. If he wants to leave Fergie will cash in at that amount as with Rio, Evans, Brown and Smalling theres a decent choice for CB. Also the Dodo deals still on the table who United hired Jaap Stam just to go and scout him and the reports were supposedly very good (By all accounts last March we were very close to signing him till the uproar about English clubs picking up Young Brazlian talent and instead we signed a first option deal according to both his club and his agent)
@Fred
MUST have been claiming all along they have been taking 70p from every £1 so I wouldn’t put too much faith in that goto figure.
And the problem with treating anything in the bond broucher as fact is that it has to layout the worst case. So just because theres provisions to do something doesn’t mean its something which is preferable to do. If it makes business sense then yes they may take those dividends, for example the 70mill made sense to take as reduces the PIK interest by 9million a year and prevents the higher rate of interest. Thats 9mill a season that can pay off more of the PIK loans or could be used to earn more money to help pay the clubs debt when it needs paid (Based on the initial statements the idea is that when either all or some of the ‘loans’ against the club it will be loaned from the Glazer Family with the money put aside from other sources). Now if they can take more dividends and make more out of it than leaving it in the club then they may do as it makes long term sense BUT they aren’t going to take a short term profit at the expense of the much higher profits to come. Especially when they continually state they are in it for the long haul whenever a buyer shows intrest or the fans start to try and push them out.
@Fred
First of all the Steward was right to tell him to sit down. Health and Saftey rules prevent standing in football stadiums. If you remember a few seasons back we had part of the staduim closed off for a few games for our fans refusing repeatedly to sit down.
I find it a little hard to believe that he was marched out for singing Anti Glazer songs, otherwise a fair amount of crowd would have been. The only way I see this happening is if his chants were of the more extream kind and were inappropriate and offensive. And that throws doubt on the rest of his story. If the chants were acceptable chants and he was thrown out due to this then its wrong but the problem is its his word only and the rest of those chanting poke holes in his story
@Costas
Players these days are the ones who ones who have the power due to things like the Bosman. Clubs can hold onto players on principle but that usually sees them being the ones who lose out. Look at Villa with Barry who lost out on £15mill + Finnan to get only £12mill the season after
aig – 28, 000. Pathetic. Boos at full time. Stoke will do them at the Britannia.
aig alex is god – someone called me obssesed that I am talking out of my ass that united need a striker, but for me there is nothing wrong in what I am saying that we are light upfront its actually seeing the one weakness in the team, because defence and the midfield are ok. this summer I expect the striker situation sorted, but its a shame united did not strengthen the CF position in the summer. Because if united did I truly believe we would be miles infront in the title race atleast a good 10 pts clear.
I just listened to it again. if your given two minutes to Grill Gill that really isn’t how you do it. Is anybody any wiser as to the financial situation? If so help me out because im not. Gill said the Glaziers have invested 270 Million of their own money, and he says the debt at the club is 360 Million.
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Somebody needs to focus on these 2 claims Gill keeps making and confirm if they are true or not, for instance, he said near the end of this interview that the debt of the Red Football Joint Venture was 500 Million, so is the 270 Million the Glaziers have put into the club deducted from that to make 330 Million United Debt or what? Plus Gill said that the PIK is not Uniteds debt, that needs clariying with people asking the right probing questions.
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Bottom line, if Glazier IS bullshiting he needs to be put on the spot with the really difficult questions which he is forced to answer. Give him the space/rope to hang himself. This interview raises more questions then it answers. Hopefully the Green and Gold Campaign keeps the pressure on him so he will be forced to give a REAL INTERVIEW were the REAL ISSUES will be raised properly, because ranting at Gill in an interview is letting him off the hook in my opinion. He needs to be Cornered and forced to tell us the truth. I look forward to seeing that. I want answers not heresay.
@Wakey
One thing about the players. How come Real never had that type of problem? Because the Spanish weather is better? Or because they pay them what they want? I will say it again. I don’t want us giving in to ransom, but if we can’t figure out a way to make these players happy, this thing will only get worse. I didn’t know that detail about Smalling. That’s a lot of money for him.
As far as me moaning and complaining…Well, I wish I was around this place during our dark period of 2003-2006. Since my word isn’t good enough, that would have proved you wrong. But all you can do is look how I reacted after the defeats to Fulham and Liverpool in ROM articles from last March.
You said that our profit as a PLC would have been less. Here’s my question though. How much does our profit depend on our success now and how much did it depend when we were a PLC? Because if the plan to service the debt is to keep winning titles, it’s a very risky one. It’s not guaranteed. Also, take into account that during the PLC era, ticket prices weren’t as high as they are now.
@king eric
yes. Read it on the bbc.Stoke have to be the favourites at the britannia. The number of injuries they were having during the game was ridiculous and yet city couldnt get the result
@rtnk
yes. You have had a lot of disagreements with other fans here. I agree that we need someone. If we had someone whether we would have been 10 points clear i dont know because defensive injuries have been a problem too this season.As i said yesterday SAF wanted to give Berbatov one more season to see if he could do better than last year.If that dosent happen i do expect someone to come in or Diouf to get more playing time
@Paul Parker
Thanks mate for the download, I wanted to hear what the fuss was about and what exactly was said. It reminded me of a gathering of Ricks mates in the young ones, fascists!The interviewer, if you can call him that certainly has the expertese for McDonalds.
If Stoke do them in at the Britannia, I can’t wait to see Mancini come at OT and tear the banner down.
aig alex is god – maybe some dont want to open their eyes and see the truth. But it frustrates me we are playing rooney upfront on his own in the big games when I still dont think it works against strong defensive teams, yes it works fine against sides like arsenal who cant defend.
Paul Parker – the numbers dont add up, how can united be in 360 million pounds of debt when the club cost 800 million when bought, add the fact they put 270 million of their so called own money which is the bullshit icing on the bullshit cake. So how is the debt this much did the leaches some how payed off a giant chunk of the debt is it also partly the reason why the club is not buying big.
@ Fred
You quoted an article stating that Glazers will suck out almost 500m from United’s operating profits till 2017. Thats the year the bonds worth 500m mature and we have to pay back the principal amount no? So it hardly goes into their pocket, but clears off the dept. So stating that the level of debt remains the same is being biased.
My first reaction to the huge debt was ‘Oh Lord, we’re fucked’ like anybody else. But after reading up, I have come to a conclusion that its not as bad as MUST and a lot of others are making it sound. Yes the debt on the club was uncalled for. But the benefits it brings with us being a private owned rather than being a PLC is something that both David Gill and Fergie must have agreed was a price we had to pay. Fergie had stated the problems with the transfer activity with us being a PLC. Yes a lot of our operating profits go to service the debts and what at the moment may look like Glazers sucking out the club’s money is actually meaning that we will effectively be debt free by 2017. Why did David Gill push the new UEFA rule to be implemented from 2012 that Clubs spending more than they earn will not be allowed to compete in the Champions league. He knew that United’s income generated through sponsorship deals, contracts, merchandises etc is the largest in the world and although it will be difficult for us to operate under the new rule, it would be almost impossible for the likes of City, Chelsea, Real etc to break event their account books.
Oh and I am not Pro Glazer! Needed to state that before someone branded me that.
@Prakash
Don’t be coming on here with anything intelligent to say mate they don’t like it. These anti Glazerites quote portions of stories, don’t tell the whole truth and only mention things that bolster their predjudices against the Glazers. If the Glazers were called Glaznovski they would be hailed as saviours and gods 700 million debt or no 700 million debt. Its anti american feeling at Manchester this week.
GoatinaUnitedShirt – Glad you appreciated the Interview, as I thought the article failed to tell us how pointless the questions being posed were. much ado about nowt – and agreed, the interviewer was no Frost was he? maybe next time we’ll get real answers to real questions.
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Rooney is King – I know the numbers don’t add up mate, thats my fucking point! Im amazed nobody has pinned Gill down and asked him straight forward, no-nonsense questions. Listen, im not supporting anything but the truth and nothing but. Everything else is Bollocks mate, and that goes for the Glaziers AND those Red Knights. My point was, perhaps if Gill was given time to ANSWER he could have explained what all these numbers mean and how they add up. What we need is somebody to simply ask – WHAT WAS THE ORIGINAL DEBT, how much have the Glaziers invested with their own money, how much has been reduced through re-financing and other means, and finally WHAT IS THE TOTAL AMOUNT OUTSTANDING TODAY. Jesus, its not fucking rocket science. If the Interviewer concentrated on that, instead of shouting and being insulting and generally a touch too emotional, perhaps we would all be wiser to whats going on. 700 Million my arse, thats my current hunch, if it turns out that figure is incorrect after all we’d have to look into who is actually taking MUST for idiots, perhaps its the Charitable Red Knights waiting in the wings to “rescue” us once we help destroy our own Club? Eitherway, lets hope the next interview Gill has is truely revealing as opposed to wasted. We’ll soon find out. IMO, rather then a Milian walk out, Gill should be pressured into conducting an interview with MUST, personally I’d pay money to see that because SOMEBODY IS TALKING BOLLOCKS, they both can’t be right can they? We’re either 330 in debt which means we ARE paying off our debts, or we are in 700 Million in debt and facing an ABYSS. I’d love to find out WHO is lying… time will tell.
@ GoatinaUnitedShirtWantSomeofThat
I mentioned these because I find some of the fan activity around to be real fanatic and lacking of proper reasoning. It might be useful, or maybe not. But I would rather our fans sing about the club and players more than on the Glazers. I am indeed of the opinion that a debt free situation is whats the best for all of us, but the Glazers havent been bad IMO. I am not from England and hence would not be entitled to comment on the rising ticket prices. A takeover from MUST or IMUSA will make no difference in my opinion and it will be highly unlikely. United are valued at around 1.3 billion and debts of 700m /370m whoever you like to believe which amounts to almost 1.6-2 billion required for the takeover to be successful and for us to be debt free, to be honest, I dont see it happening.
@Wakey,
Im no Corporate Fianance expert but I do have a basic understanding of law, and for United to have recently sold those Bonds, an assessment of our Fianances for viability purposes must have been disclosed FIRST. Thats why im constantly asking for clarification on these figures because the facts ARE out there, they must be, otherwise what legal protection would Bond purchasers have had before buying ? Like you said, United would’ve been required to disclose relevent information regarding the Clubs finances before the Bond were sold, if only to remove their own liability should the Bond buyers have a problem. So Gill has the numbers.
_________________________
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Im not Pro-Glazier at ALL, but if people are still screaming 700 Million debt DESPITE Gill repeatedly and openly saying otherwise, it leaves the movement open to allegations of scare-mongering which is unnecessary because the Glaziers are already VERY unpopular. Why take it to the extreme? People just want facts, not rhetoric. The 700 Million theory is more and more sounding like a ghost story. Thats not me supporting Glazier, thats me refusing to be a MUG. If people are saying 700 Million im not gonna just accept that im gonna look into it as best I can, and now that the Bonds have been issued we know that the real figures are out there. United isn’t ENRON, the figures relased in relation to the Bonds would have been accurate. Gill said the debt is 360 Million. He also said the Debt of Red Football Joint venture was 500 Million, and he also said that 270 Million was invested by the Glaziers into the Club, now surely somebody can confirm all of that and make sure it all adds up and makes sense? Am I asking too much ? I mean, People want to organise fucking up our Milan Away game, before we even have consensus on the most BASIC of facts? I don’t understand that, it seems like we’re striking out into darkness. Whats even worse, People are advocating we collaborate with outsiders to DESTROY our own club from the inside so London Red Knights can save the day? All that without the basic facts? C’mon, that doesn’t sound right.
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All I want are FACTS. Not Rafa FACTS that are actually opinion mixed with hatred and jealously, but real facts. THEN AND ONLY THEN can we all make our own minds up. To be honest, im amazed that the so-called Anti-Glazier movement is screaming blue murder and suggesting cooperating with a hostile take over campaign without anybody being 100% sure what our current financial situation is. Crazy. I consider myself Anti-Glazier but im not supporting Red Knights, im holding my opinion until Gill is properly questioned and his statements can be ascertained. Otherwise its the Blind leading the Blind, something I refuse to do. 700 Million Debt ? PROVE IT THEN, because Gill keeps saying its at least half that, and he would be liable for putting out information he knew to be incorrect. The sale of those bonds constitutes legal “consideration” on the part of the buyers so, if Gill is saying its 300 odd but its really 700 odd and rising, he really would be in a legal world of shit. Its slightly far fetched that he would constantly state 300 odd Million if it was more than double that. 700 Million is starting to sound like Scare-mongering, and I really hope it isn’t because the Green and Gold campaign might be effected, and its turning out to be one of the greatest modern football supporter campaigns I can think of… but we’ll see…..
Catch you later Gentlemen.
Before I go, I just want to state again, wearing my United Shirt, hand on the Bible, Quran and whatever else is required – I AM NOT IN FAVOUR OF THE GLAZIERS, I NEVER WAS FROM THE BEGINNING. I RESENT OUR CLUB BEING IN DEBT. However, in debt we indeed are, so before I advocate jumping out of the Glazier Pan into the Red Knight Fire like MUST suggest, I’d first like to know some basic facts, and im not alone – the Majority of fans just want to know whats going on FIRST. So I sincerely look forward to having our financial situation laid out once and for all, maybe that will happen in the Summer once we’ve hopefully retained our Crown? Time will tell…
Scott, well done for allowing an article that you clearly don’t agree with as a ROM reads link. The fact that it was balanced, factual and quite persuasive, makes it all the more laudable.
I was in a good discussion at the office with a fellow ST holder about the Glazer situation and the campaign, yesterday. He, like me, is a reasonable bloke (no, I am really!) but unlike me, is now leaning towards getting his green and yellow paraphenalia. I asked him to explain to me what his main concerns were and they were:
1. Increase in his ST (North Stand T2) price of around 25% in last few years
2. Automatic cup ticket scheme (he struggles to make midweek games often – due to work)
He didn’t mention the debt, but he did say that he was impressed with the following:
1. Hands off for all footballing matters
2. Not glory / publicity seekers
3. The success coinciding with (notice I didn’t say due to) their tenure
He also said that he was disgusted and embarrassed by some of the behaviour he has seen recently at OT – like I said, he’s a reasonable bloke.
Anyway, I asked how he would feel if the club were to cancel the cup ticket scheme and freeze ticket prices next season. He reckoned that would make him feel quite happy with life and he could get back to giving his undivided attention to supporting the team and the club.
So my question to some of the more fervent anti-Glazer (not the death brigade ‘cos I don’t care one jot what you think) what would it take for you to take a step back from the campaign?
Paul Parker – you have basically hit the nail right on the head, the debt is the gigantic problem what is the debt amount, because I was so pissed off with that idiot united fan questioning gill who was so brain washed who was propably the one wanting fergie out stupid idiot that fan was. before the refinancing the debt was over 700 million. But what is the current debt since the refinancing. Here are my questions if I was going up to gill here they are
- david Gill when the glazers took over it cost them over 800 million? you said the glazers put 270 million of their own personal money meaning they borrowed over 500 million is that correct? have they put in more money to pay off the debt?
- the reports over this season say the club is in well over 700 million pounds of debt before the refinancing is that correct?
- when the club was refinanced you have said the club is in 360 million so can you tell me how much of the debt was payed off? or was it payed off at all?
- loads have said the club was in well over 700 million pounds of debt? How can the club go from 700 million to 360 million of debt to me it makes no sence, can you break it down how the debt was payed off? and with who’s money? the glazers personal wealth? the clubs profits? who?
- so since the refinancing has the structure of the clubs finances in better shape than before?
- can you tell everyone what is the current interest rate
this is a funny story shitty try to get vidic didnt vidic’s wife want to leave manchester what sence would it make going to an infurior club and team.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/manchester_city/article7026425.ece
rtnk – It is not funny mate, it is a joke. So they think by buying the Judas and Vida they can “replace Manchester United as the top club”. I find all this shite from the media fucking offensive. We have just won 3 titles on the trot and appeared in 2 consecutive European Finals. We are one point off the top, in great form, knocked the cunt’s out the league cup and through the last 16 of Europe. THEY HAVE NOT WON A TROPHY FOR 34 YEARS!!!!!!!
How on earth are they anywhere near United? Sick to the teeth of this saying “The balance of power is shifting”. Is it fuck. When will the idiots realise City are fucking woeful who up to press have been very lucky. Getting by with shite perfomances. Mancini the smug bastard with his shit negative football will be their downfall. Just because he is suave and is Italian the bitters think he is god. I am convinced the Sheiks have paid everyone in the media to NEVER be negative about Citeh. Everytime I hear summat they are praising the cunts.
@aig alex is god
Dzeko’s valuation is pretty high and in the summer lacked much top level expertise. He is probably a ‘safer’ bet now than he was back then.
With Chamakh Bordeuax were asking for a hefty fee considering he only had a year left which is why Arsenal and West Ham both pulled out of deals. And when you look at whose been in for him its not a massive ringing endorsement neither do his stats
@Paul Parker
The PIK’s are the Glazers duty to service and everyones knows this. Most of the ‘Anti Glazer’ people here acknowledge that as well.
As for the debt, no you don’t take the 270mill of the 509mill. The Glazers paid £741million in total. £509mill from the banks and £232mill from the Glazers. The other 40mill is probably the fees for restructuring the club.
As for £360m debt perhaps someone else can educate me a bit on this but it might actually be covered by ‘goodwill’. Basically the value of United isn’t the purchase price but the value of the assets. So while the Glazers may have paid 740mill the real value is only the value of the assets. So in the accounts you effectively write off the difference and in an article I read Gill said this is over 30mill a season. Now based on 30mill a season that brings us to the £360m figure, so my question is can/is the goodwill used to pay off the difference between the purchase price and value of the asset? I don’t have any real world experience of goodwill myself so if anyone knows It would be interesting to hear.
Either that or as the assets of the club clearly aren’t valued at anything close to £509mill perhaps only £360mill is actually secured against the club itself
@King Eric
Come on mate, don’t be delusional. The balance of power has swang. Tevez’s weight tips the scales in their favor now.
King Eric – isnt it true we will lose 6 pts if pompey go bust. I said it was funny because like if shitty signing vidic can replace united has top dogs after their performence today. and like shitty can buy vidic when if or when he does go its either spain or italy. I agree there I am sick of everyone saying shitty are taken over united have they seen the table and like mancini can dethrone united he is not only overated but an average manager too, he is a poor mans mourinho.
United are like rocky despite how many times they are written off they dont stop and they always win in the end. Rocky 1 and 2 reminded me so much of united they are written off but despite how many punches and batterings the media and pundits give united they can take the hits, if united win the league this season that is exactly what united are rocky they dont stop they always win.
@Costas
I’m not sure its true that Real don’t have such problems. There are things that go in their favour though from the weather to the better pay/tax situation. Also the simple fact of the matter for most players from Mainland Europe Real is seen as a bigger club
And its not that I don’t take your word but just that I believe you are viewing it with rose tainted glasses. Its like all the Pompey fans now saying they would swap their FA Cup Win for long term survival but they were behind the spending at the time to get success and if their clubs position becomes stable again will probally find themselves pushing for success once again in a few years. Its the problem with Sports Fans, we hate our teams losing and want them to win titles and become impatient if the team underperforms in our eyes.We won’t stop supporting them when they do underperform but we will all voice our displeasure and state what we think should be done.
As for the profit. Less of our profit now is reliant on the on field success, there has been alot of areas where the Glazers have been able to eek out more money than the PLC would because PLC’s play it safe on decsions where as the way to make money is to be more agressive and take some calculated risks. The profits have obviously been helped by the better tv deals and the ticket price increase which would have come in under the PLC too (Although the ticket price rises may have been less agressive under the PLC but would have also hindered our ability to spend) you are probally looking at tens of millions profit that the PLC wouldn’t have even considered.
@RTNK
We can be any type of Rocky, apart from Rocky 5. That’s the only movie I didn’t like, lol. So depressing.
Costas – ha nice one mate. Barry looks to have put some timber on as well. Must be the glass of wine with the pre match pasta that Mancini says his teams favour. They must be fucking pissed when they go on the pitch!
@rooney the new king
“isnt it true we will lose 6 pts if pompey go bust”
Where did you get that crazy idea? The general rule is that if a team can’t put out a team for whatever reason the opponent is awarded a 3-0 win. So unless the EPL has some strange rules in place for going out of business then thats what will happen.
Anyway they won’t dissaper anyway, they will be put into administration with a 10 point penalty
Costas – rocky 5 was bad, the final one was awesome. but ROCKY 1 and 2 when he was in his prime and written off thats what united are like.
Wakey – the fact remains there are tons of unanswered questions that need clearing up because many said the shit the media has come out with is making the club unstable, some even saying its propaganda from the medi and MUST, well if thats the case why dont the club come out make a massive statement on the current financial situation because the longer they remain silent the more these storys will come out. Or the reason why they are staying silent is because the storys are propably true.
@Wakey
Call me a cynic, but I feel that footballers today base their career decisions only on their wages. Can’t say that I blame them, since their careers run into their mid to late 30s and they might not have a job after that. That’s why I don’t believe excuses like Ronaldo’s or Vidic’s. One of the reasons Real are attractive for footballers, is the tax situation as you mentioned. That’s why I mentioned them. That was just a rant of mine on the Vidic sitauation(if it exists). Not much we can do about that. We could bump Vidic’s wages and Real might still offer more. It’s just extremely annoying. And if we do reach that point, I hope we sell him to anyone but Real.
I won’t lie that I haven’t enjoyed our success in recent seasons. But I have been around for a while, and I know that football works in cycles. And others who followed United in the 80s, like King Eric and GHTT, know it a lot better than me. I want to to be prepared for the time when we will hit our bad patch again. It’s the younger fans(those who started following us in the last 4-5 years) that I am worried about.
As far as the profit goes, I won’t push it, because I don’t have the facts. I think it’s Paul Parker(not the player, lol) who said that David Gill should conduct an interview about this and settle the score. It’s not about convincing MUST. That probably won’t happen. But it will be a good opportunity to convince those who are conflicted and try to limit down any devisive tendencies.
Wakey – someone said because pompey wont play anymore if they go bust they will lose the pts. I dont know if its true but its been said we will lose the 6pts, well all the teams that have played and taken pts off pompey will lose the pts can someone clear this up is this all true.
@King Eric
Glass of wine? That explains the ridiculous goal celebrations by Tevez and Adebayor. Or their decision to wear the Team Bridge shirts!
Anyone else seen this..
http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/sport/727979/RONALDO-HINTS-AT-UNITED-RETURN-80m-star-refuses-to-rule-out-sensational-return-to-Old-Trafford.html
“He added: “I will not say I am not happy here at Real Madrid.
“I am really happy and everyone knows this is my club but, of course, I miss Manchester United, the boss, the players, because I left family there.
“I want to fulfil my contract here but, in the future, only God knows.”
…where have we heard this before I wonder?
@RTNK
Agreed. I also enjoyed Rocky 6 immensely. I like us being undedogs, but sometimes I want us to be a machine like Rocky was in 3 and 4.
Costas – there is a big problem now with spain, any player who now moves to spain the tax’s will effect players so they will be paying the same in england. it is old contracts like with ronaldo messi etc that will not be effected. The massive problem united having is 3 things.
- the climate is better and the city is
- the trophys the faciest have won is better than what we have
- they offer more money while at united they try and give reasonable wages
About Portsmouth guys. I don’t know what the rules in England state, but I can think one of two scearios. If they stop competing in the Premier League and we lose our 6 points against them, Chelsea won’t play them next month. Which means that we will go 4 points behind Chelsea, but with a game in hand.
Costas – whats that saying in balboa it aint over until its over the media forget that write united off and right in the balls right square in the balls. I love rocky 4 sometimes I wish I was ivan drago we already have ivan in vida well he is not quiet the ivan drago has he was last year
@RTNK
Of the 3 reasons you mentioned, I think footballers take into consideration only the last one. Now, of course they would reject a club like City due to their non existant history, but when it comes down to us and Real or Barca, that’s the difference. But things might change if the tax situation becomes the same as in England.
Jim – I would not read anything into this he wont return, he done his time with united he will play his 6 years at madrid and I would not be suprised if he decided to retire from football in cantona style retire in his early 30s.
@RTNK
Yeah, that was the theme of the last one. I hope we live up to it this season. We also have our own Drago in Rooney this season. Whatever he hits, he destroys!
Ronnie has to find new catchphrases, lol.
Costas – the tax’s will now change in spain what I have been reading and hearing, the spanish goverment was furious with madrids spending in the summer especially the ronaldo transfer, and the money players making and they want to bring to an end the loop holes the fascest are using to give players more money and with the wages they are on the spanish goverment want to do what is been done in the UK.
@Jim
I have said it all along that I wouldn’t rule him coming back. He never seemed fully convinced where he wanted to be, it was like his head was saying “United is the place for you” while his heart was saying ‘Reals your dream move’. His heart won the battle but the thing with dreams is its often better to let them remain a dream as its rarely going to live up to the dream and it can even turn into a nightmare. Theres also the old Grass is greener and you don’t know what youve got till its gone situations that can come into play and do seem to have done so for Ronaldo at Real.
Costas – oh yes soctt hasa got to dub rooney the new ivan drago he is a machine. I might change my username to rooney the new machine na he is the new king
@rooney the new king
The tax that Foreign players will be paying is still less than the current tax rate in the uk and certainly less than the 50% rate thats coming in.
Also the tax the clubs pay is also less which means that they can give the players more of the transfer deal
Wakey – he wont return. I have always said this with players and in general never go back move on, ronaldo coming back is a very bad idea for united and ronaldo himself. he had a good 6 years at united, he had a good run now I think he wants to really get stuck in with life in spain, yes he said these comments but he will not be returning I bet my soul he will not be playing at united again.
butt what I have been heaing more tax’s in spain will be payed closer to the rates in england
“who said that David Gill should conduct an interview about this and settle the score. It’s not about convincing MUST.”
The problem is it is about convincing MUST and the Red Tops because if he can’t persuade them then he can’t persuade the rest of the fans who can’t or won’t comprehend what he says without being told so by MUST or the Red Tops (Mind you the Red Tops wouldn’t report it if they were convinced because thats not a story that will sell papers and I’m not sure MUST would even be willing to listen while they can keep fighting to make themselves feel important)
After all Gill did an interview and he was labeled a liar and MUST are still pushing the “No Transfer Budget and 700mill in debt” line and people are latching onto that. Also to go into the kind of details to actually explain it not only would go over most fans heads BUT i’m not sure how open about the accounts we really want him to be. Its bad enough that he has now officially announced that 100mill can be spent in the summer let alone if the other teams know the ins and outs. We may as well be a PLC again
Ronaldo will probably play in Spain until he is 30. And at that time, it’s anyone’s guess what kind of player he will be. He won’t be as explosive as he is now, so maybe Italy will be a better option for him. At least he is still respectful of us.
@rooney the new king
The rates closer than it was as Foreign Players were using a loophole that got them a reduced tax rate but the standard rate is still less than the UK’s is atm and the UK’s is due to rise by a further 10% when you are making the kind of money Footballers make
Wakey – no but he needs to answer questions before the refinancing how can the debt be from 700 million and since the refinancing its 360 million you dont come out with a statement like that without backing it up. Also no club answers how much money is there to spend that is given away your hand ts just like poker, but the statement the club is now in 360 million when he also said the glazers have put in 270 million of their personal wealth, do you see how that makes completly and utterly no sence and the numbers dont add up. if the debt is 360 million someone has payed off a big chunk of the debt if before refinancing the debt stood at over 700 million.
Wakey
I know it might be costly mate. But on one hand you have numbers and figures and on the other hand you have mostly secrecy. It’s not that MUST or the tabloids are brainwashing United fans. It’s just that there is no response from Gill ot the Glazers and they might perceive that as guilty silence.
I haven’t read the interview you mention. I don’t think that he has to go into detail about the debts or the assets. He could just explain with figures how our current regime works better than when we were a PLC.
PS 100 million? If only. Smalling just took up 10-14 of them!
Wakey – the goverment have a cheek to raise another 10% after the scandels come out of how they have been using tax payers money to pay for their personal wealth before the scandel which is worser than nixon.
When a politions husband was using tax payers money to pay for PORN we know how bad a shape the houses of parliment is in at the moment. And they are also screwing the big clubs from getting the best players, money will always play a part add the fact the size of clubs madrid and barca are its hard for united to compete.
Costas – exactly dont they want to defend their credibility because how can they sit there n silence and let everyone write horror statements on the current financial situation of united. If I was owning a football club the size of united and I was been seen has some satan bastard running the club into the ground I would want to address the situation in detail
@rooney the new king
The debt has NEVER been 700mill though. Thats the Newspaper figure of the Bank Loan + Interest we have paid.
And the amount the Glazer invested doesn’t come into it. We all knew that they put in the money from the off as the club cost them £741mill to buy yet they only borrowed £509mill secured against united.
The money that Gill says the Glazers invested is 120mill from the PIK loans that they are responsible for rather than the club and the rest is Money that they could release at the time.
And the debt can still be £509mill while also being £360mill. Obviously the bonds are worth £509mill + Interest just as the loans before were. You often can’t repay borrowing before set repayment dates without a financial penalty (If you have a mortgage go check your agreement, you will have a set payment for a year and there is probally an early payment provision that allows a certain amount to be paid off above the agreed amount each year BUT it will also state that if you pay off more than this agreed extra you will face extra charges) So you could have provisions in the accounts (Perhaps through the goodwill payments on the books) that are basically reducing the debt but its just sitting there waiting to be used to pay it off
wat a boring day ,damn f.a cup, RTNK,costas, hows it going?
arsene wenger – hey hows it going, yea its been a boring day for us red devils and gooners. Yea been ok I cant be assed to go out anywhere walked teh dg for a phew hours and just been online for a while commenting on ROM.
Wakey – thanks for the info if thats true, but I still say gill cant just come out with a comment the debt is 360 million without looking into context of the debt overall. But my problem is why is the media using the old dead weight debt before the refinancing. I am very dissapointed with david conner of the sport financial colminst of the guardian how he is written scandelist storys of the clubs finances, without looking into the current refiancing.
Hey arsene wenger. Everything’s good. I kind of missed the FA cup today. Well, at least Tuesday is close. I am going to head off. Night everyone.
yeah i went out for a couple drinks RTNK but today was just long like a sunday ,seemslike ashley cole done his best to deflect attention off JT
costas have a good one
arent manchester uniteds finances public? RTNK, wakey , i thought they would disclose them at the end of each tax year or financial year
arsene wenger – well they do the problem is now united have refianced and there is now a completly different financial structure of the club. And the massive problem is the media are setting a different story and the problem is the club is not coming out and making a statement what is the debt exactly now, is it larger smaller what is it. So the finances that came out in january are different now since united refinanced their financial steucture debt etc.
i see RTNK ,basically football has been screwed by greed, chairmen,and players as well especially since the bosman ruling, i cant even imagine how far these debts would have gone if a credit crunch didnt appear
i read arsenals finances, i didnt understand a word, but it did say something like we have a shedload of cash in the clubs account, but i feel that because the way footballs going they dont want to spend just leave it there incase they cant raise the yearly debt payments if football goes tits up, in uniteds a friend who works in the city in risk tried to break it down to me and most worryin was the fact the bond issues payments didnt go directly to uniteds parent company but to a glazer company then to the united parent company, just sounded a bit strange, like on paper it would seem they put the money into united
arsene wenger – its bad richard scumdamore is scum he says fans ownership cant work because the stakes are that high, he is scared if united fans took over the club he could be questioned. can you imagine most clubs owned by the fans I wonder how he would cope. I have always said this this the current fit and proper test is a complete joke. debt is the road to ruin and how the FA premier league have delt with takeovers is nothing short of a complete car crash its a joke
also the glazers cant even afford to maintain united so what do they have to offer is any better than a fans ownership, many down it but give it time long term fans ownership will be better for the game in general
fan ownership would be good, i also feel that footballers wages need to drop, its become a joke, i know tax is high but givin contracts worth 25 mill to only one player who can up and leave is a disaster, its a 30 man squad game and every club should have the same wage budget, how they split it up amongst their players is their business, ticket prices are a joke and if they dont fix this problem soon all clubs are in the shit, we will end up watching barnet vs dagneham in the F.A cup final
arsene wenger – football in general it has become a joke the financial side I will still say how the FA and premier league have allowed parasites come in use finacial loop holes to cheat the finacial game to make has much profit has possible, look at the diabolical befavior craft have done with ppls jobs with cadburys. it is a complete joke how our own goverment have allowed parasites to take iconic figures of our country and totaly infest them with debt that cant be managed if success is not continued.
RNTK the government are all on the payroll, this is the problem, the rich get rich because they stick together and help each other, the government work for the rich man wherever he may come from, me and you mate were just here to get taxed
the f.a are just a branch of government, they sell a product, they want rich investment in the game so they welcome red rom, abou diaby down the road from you , so far so good with those but they never bought the clubs and they will leave at some point with the clubs owing them money, and you lot got it the worst because they actually allowed your club to be bought by the ones without money
arsene wenger – exactly and what makes me laugh is scumdamore says the fans could not own the club because the stakes are to high, so the glazers can afford the club and united are better off with these parasites but the fans owning united would make united worse off. He is a complete joke, like you say the FA the premier league teh goverment are friends with PPL like the glazers so I dont think they care what happens to united because all they care about is getting their pay check. I will say this its about time the entire structure of the british game was changed. Half these ppl are not fit to run football clubs. the FA and the premier league are not fit to run our game so what hope have any of us got, the horrible thing is in the money driven game united have got the worse deal.
the biggest fuck up is the screening process, deciding if a candidate would be suitable to take over a football club, the portsmouth saga is a joke, the manchester united saga is a joke as well, the amount of money manchester united turns over is huge which is why these broke yanks wanted in, they are wealthy men but obviously not cash rich, even the banks should have known better but then again thats why they give credit cards to anyone because they want the payments to fail so they can dig their claws in
arsene wenger – I was watching inside the twin towers and the people who decided we will replace the towers with some hideoes freedom tower which sums up the people who are in charge of anything, they dont listen what the people have to say what they want. It is the same with football we have no voice. I completly agree thats why they are called parasites
parasites – An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.
and one who habitually takes advantage of the generosity of others without making any useful return, meaning they take more than give.
many say it cant work, but you take a fans ownrship all the profits will go to the club, add the fact many wealthy people can come into the football club bring their ideas and they put their money towards the club. Red knights are basically set up with many wealthy buisness men who support united who will help finance the club and you add the money united make every year. What many people fail to realise is united are in a unique position they dont need any rich person to run the club because of the money the club makes, thats why united can be owned by the fans because the club makes so much money and thats why the parasites wont let go of the club.
you would only need 50 fans to put in 15 million pound each,man utd would find them easily and that would be 750 mill, then get the average united supporters to raise 250 million , that would be a billion pound , i think it could be done, then run as club within its means, i guarantee there would be 50 very very wealthy people worldwide that would put 15 mill in without blinking
parasites= football agents as well!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1250906/Ronaldo–I-miss-United-maybe-I-return-Old-Trafford.html
I Know its daily fail,but it’s still nice to read this article.Heh
@arsene wenger
They are but not in the depth that they were as a PLC. And the problem is that the clubs structure means that there are atleast 3 sets of accounts made public at different times which the media and MUST like to pick parts out of and use them out of context. The structure adds complexity but helps with things like tax and also limits liability (Its like the way that when you are making a movie the production company will create a seperate company for each film that way if the film gets into trouble the production company itself its liable and doesn’t go down with it. And if the Production company gets into trouble it doesn’t take the movie down and allows the movie studio to ensure the production completes and they can release it)
@rooney the new king
“richard scumdamore is scum he says fans ownership cant work because the stakes are that high, he is scared if united fans took over the club he could be questioned”
Except he is right, I think most people who are supporting a Fan ownership are not looking at it realstically. I ask you this question “What would you do about ticket prices?”. Certainly the Match Going Fans would want the prices reduced but what does that do to the profits? With the situation in Britian our profits rely a fair bit on matchday revenues (Certainly more so than say in Spain where Real and Barca get ridicious amounts in their TV deals as they sell indvivual rights) so a reduction in matchday revenues would be a problem. And do we really want a situation where Fans can ultimatly sack the Manager and the Board OR are we going to have a situation like in Spain where all the Fan owners do is elect a ‘president’ who for 5 years can do what they like. By the end of each term in Spain the clubs in question are almost always on the edge of the cliff having been mismanaged significantly by the president who has spent more than the club earned.
Even the ‘Red Knights’ who to get MUST and the fans on their side were talking about Fan ownership have shifted their stance. Harris is now saying “While a buy-out envisaged by Harris would not achieve the dream of a supporter-owned club, his backers plan to model their approach to the fans on that of Randy Lerner at Villa”. If you know the Lerner buyout what he did was buy it with a Loan from another company of his so in reality the only difference to the Glazers is that the loan isn’t to either Banks or Bond Holders but to another company in the owners portfolio. As such these Red Knights will have to be and will be taking significant money out of the club.
“also the glazers cant even afford to maintain united so what do they have to offer is any better than a fans ownership”
Where have you worked out that they can’t afford to maintain United? And where are the Fans getting the money to maintain the club, there is seriously no way for Fans to raise enough to buy the club out in full
@arsene wenger
“its a 30 man squad game and every club should have the same wage budget,”
A wage cap would effectivly see all of us watching the equvilent of “barnet vs dagneham” week in week out. It would be impossible to enforce it worldwide and without it being worldwide it would make it impossible for English clubs to attract and keep players when rivals from abroad can pay significantly more. And lets be honest to keep a wage limit thats low enough that all the clubs in the EPL can afford its going to be really low. If theres a limit it has to be percentage of revenue rather than a set amount so our teams in Europe have an ability to remain compeative.
“you would only need 50 fans to put in 15 million pound each,man utd would find them easily and that would be 750 mill, then get the average united supporters to raise 250 million , that would be a billion pound , i think it could be done, then run as club within its means, i guarantee there would be 50 very very wealthy people worldwide that would put 15 mill in without blinking”
Even if you could get it for 1billion (The Red Knights Reckon atm it would take 1.5billion) you will NEVER raise 250mill from the fans. If you take Barca, Real, Valencia, Bilboa and Green Bay packers you have a total fan base that VASTLY outnumbers Uniteds but whose total membership is under 1million members. So as you can see its a gigantic ask. On the Red Knights at their valuation of 1.5billion plus then the need to pay off the Bonds early which will cost in excess of 500million unless they are willing to keep paying teh 45million a season that the Fans are so upset about under the Glazers. All in all these 50 Red Knights would need to spend over 43mill each to buy the club and pay off the bonds (Or 33million if they leave the bonds) and based on that amount and the name of one of the Red Knights (Fred Done, multimillionaire who owns BetFred. And I say it again multimillionaire not billionaire) tells us that they will demand a return. Infact the latest from Keith Harris confirms this as he has stated it won’t be Fan ownership but a buy out like we saw at Villa. Also it seems like they can’t afford that high price either as again on the latest Daily Mail article he is urging Fans to boycott season tickets “But fans must also show they can hurt the Glazers by boycotting seasonticket sales in the summer. It remains to be seen how many will, and if they do, whether others will replace them.” so they clearly want the prices driven down to make it more viable and increase their profits
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1250883/Keith-Harris-Were-ready-buy-Manchester-United-Glazers.html#ixzz0fX8kDRVZ
@ Wakey
When you buy a business you pay off the debts or bonds as part of the price you pay. So if someone did buy us they wouldnt have to find extra for the debts. Thats how Ken Bates got Chelsea way back when for just a £1 because the rest of the money paid off the debts. No one would pay 1.5 billion and be lumbered with a further 500 to 750 million debt, they would pay the debt and the Glazers would get whats left, for example: Glazers want 1.5 billion for Utd and the debt is 750 million then the Glazers would pocket 750 million from the sale and the rest would clear the debt. Its simple business that mate!!
@Gee
Not actually true. The purchase price of a company is the amount to acquire the ‘Shares’ and its not automatic that debt is paid off out of that purchase price. The ‘Shareholder’ may choose to sell up at a reduced rate taking debt into account BUT there’s no legal obligation to do so. Bates acquired Chelsea for £1 simply because the value of the club was close to being worthless so it was a case of selling up to someone who could clear the debts or the club would have gone bankrupt and the shares would have been worthless.
Just look at City, neither Shinawatra or the Abu Dhabi United Group paid off the debts as part of their takeovers. Neither did Roman with Chelsea.
Infact with United the ‘Red Knights’ COULDN’T just pay off the bonds. They would have to buy the bonds back and it would have to be made worthwhile for them to sell them back to the club so would be something arranged in the months following the takeover with funds additional to the purchase price.
Trying to clear up a few simple misgivings —
@ Paul parker, Wakey, others
Its not a question of “700+” or “360″. They are both right depending on your point of view.
its quite simple really — the debt on the club’s books is around 500 mn after the bond issue. If you include the PIK-debt which is around 216 mn after the latest figures, then it becomes the “GROSS DEBT of 716 m” which MUST and IMUSA are talking about.
Now if you believe that the PIK debt is not the club’s responsibility (which is not at the face of it…but in reality it is, as all these provisions of taking dividends and payments out of the club are to enable the Glazers to pay out the PIK debt when it matures), the actual “GROSS DEBT in the club’s books is 500 mn pounds.. The cash in the bank at this point in time at United is close to 140 mn pounds as outlined in the bond-document. So the net debt as it were , ie Gross debt minus Cash and cash equivalents = Net debt
is around (500-140)= 360 mn pounds
So as you see both figures are accurate in themselves.
NOTE OF CAUTION: I deal in facts and that is what I have been trying to do for the past month ever since the debt related discussions became prevalent on this forum, those following my posts for the past month in the various topics will appreciate that and hence I lay down a few more facts for you to think about.
1) Gill’s stated position that we are 360 mn in debt is factually correct but logically incorrect. this is because the bond documents also clearly state that once the bond issue goes through, around a 100 mn is going to be transferred to the Glazers, leaving 47 mn in the club’s accounts: A STATED FACT, not a possibility — it will happen. That does not mean MUSt’s figure of 716 is also correct — both sides are exaggerating their figures to try to put the other under pressure,
HOWEVER Logically MUST’s position is closer to the truth because the Glazers in the future can load it on to the club’s books (That is NOT to say they WILL — all I am saying its a possibility as legally it is their property)
A major reason I am saying this is that they must be depending on the United profits to repay the PIK debt —- which pays 14.25% annually as there ios almost no other investment avenue in the world at the moment which offers similar returns for the same risk profile ( I made this argument earlier also, because otherwise, our bonds would never have been sold at 8-9% — why would anyone buy the bonds at 9% interest when they could SAFELY invest elsewhere and earn > 20% (AFTER TAX mind you as income is taxed around the world, so that post tax it is >14.25%), believe me there arent such opportunities anywhere or the banks of this world wouldn’t be in doldrums!)
2) Goodwill is not cash….it cannot be used to pay-off the bonds at maturity. Goodwill wrtten-off every year can lead to tax-shield on the amortization part, which will be around 10-12 million a year but that is only possible in case of sufficient taxable profits. HOWVER it is not an inflow—just a saving in outflow which would already have been factored in at the initial valuation models.
3) “profits of PLC were lower than the after debt-service profits now — I dont have any evidence of this fact yet, but that is not a good enough justification: How about we would have increased the ticket prices and merchandising practices of the club even while being a PLC —- then we could have higher profits without the excessive debt-burden??
(though I accept there are other benefits of being privately owned as well, but the question as well put by Paul Parker, is that is it worth so much risk and debt just to cover for that ??) because the profits could well have been higher under PLC with greater marketing and advertising effort and higher prices as they are now…..
@ Wakey
With regards to the Chelski and Shitty takeovers they have both since cleared the debt and the amount paid for both clubs was far below the actual value of both mate, and take into account that both clubs had a debt of about 50 to 70 million or something along those lines, not the fucking mamouth amount we owe. Utd is a privately owned company and therefore has no shares to purchase, you pay an asking price the owner sets. As I previously stated nobody would pay 1.5 billion for something that has half that value in debt hanging over its head. Therefore the asking price would be relative to the debt and the bonds being bought back and would not be added on top. Unless the person who purchase’s it is a complete tool, they would not pay that sum and take the debt, but I do concede the Glazers could put that asking price on the club if they wanted to mate and it would then be up to the buyer to negotiate that price down.