Sir Alex Ferguson would be the first to admit that he doesn’t have enough European Cup wins to his name to match the quality of the teams he has produced in almost 26 years at Manchester United. Whilst his early years were hampered by the ridiculous three foreigners rule, meaning that only three from Eric Cantona, Peter Schmeichel, Roy Keane, Andrei Kanchelskis and Dennis Irwin could play for us, the wins in 1999 and 2008 don’t accurately represent the greatness of the teams Ferguson has created.
We have been painfully close on a number of occasions and in recent years have been unfortunate enough to have to compete against one of the best club teams in the history of the game, Pep Guardiola’s Barcelona. Going back, we lost out to eventual winners, Borussia Dortmund in the semi-finals in 97, we lost to eventual winners, Real Madrid, in the quarters in 2000, we lost to eventual winners, Bayern Munich, in the quarters in 2001, we were knocked out by Bayer Leverkusen on away goals in the semis the following season, we lost to eventual winners, Porto, in 2004 after Paul Scholes’ clearly onside goal was disallowed, and in 2007 we lost to eventual winners, AC Milan, in the semi-finals, after they rested their players ahead of the game because they weren’t in the title race, whilst we fought back from 2-0 down to beat Everton 4-2 a few days earlier as we were in the thick of a title battle.
In 1999, we had more than our fair share of luck, but we also had a fantastic team. Giggs, Scholes, Keane and Beckham, all at their peak, is surely the best midfield ever seen. Andy Cole and Dwight Yorke were the highest scoring partnership in all of Europe that season. Schmeichel, Neville, Stam, Johnsen and Irwin were as solid as a rock at the back. It was an incredible side. We didn’t have a great ‘squad’ then, not many teams did, but we had two top class strikers in Ole Gunnar Solskjaer and Teddy Sheringham eager for the opportunity to shine. To have two strikers capable of scoring European Cup winning goals in injury time sitting on your bench is fairly handy.
That 1998-1999 season was ridiculous though. No English team has ever managed such a feat and it’s hard to imagine a team that would be capable of repeating it. Whilst of course there had to be some tactical nouse behind it, with Steve McClaren’s England tenure unfairly tainting his reputation, we won those three trophies in 1999 because we had bloody brilliant players, who had incredible self-belief, who played as a team, and who were winners. Going 2-0 down at Juve in the European Cup semi-final wasn’t part of the game plan but they overcame that hurdle through sheer desire to win and top class ability. Going down to ten men and conceding a last minute penalty wasn’t how Ferguson envisaged the FA Cup semi-final replay against Arsenal, but when Giggs picked up the ball at the half-way line, his skill and drive allowed him to take on the league’s best defence and rifle the ball in to the roof of the net.
I don’t want to claim that we were tactically unaware that season but I would say we were fairly naive. The players were just so good that it seemed to be a case of just go out there and win. This was a mentality that worked well in the league, us winning the title three years on the trot, but it wasn’t sophisticated enough for Europe. Being the better team with better players suddenly wasn’t the be all and end all for European success.
We had to wait until 2008 to win the European Cup again, not because we weren’t one of Europe’s best sides before then, but because we weren’t tactically astute enough to compete. There will always be the odd team that goes on a flukey run or who doesn’t have a title race to compete in so are better rested for their European games, but for the most part, the Champions League determines who are the better sides in Europe. We were amongst the best, we had some brilliant players, but we looked out of our depth when playing some sides.
Carlos Queiroz’s return to United was pivotal to our success in 2008. We finally had a team that was comparable to the one that won the Treble but Queiroz employed tactics that allowed us to seriously compete in Europe. The semi-finals against Barcelona showed this at it’s best, particularly the game at Old Trafford. Their players saw so much of the ball but we kept them out of our penalty area. They passed from left to right but they just couldn’t get past our defence. I’m sure I can speak on behalf of all of Old Trafford that night when I say it became incredibly nerve-wracking the closer we got to full-time, knowing that a Barcelona goal would almost certainly ensure we wouldn’t progress to the final, but the players seemed happy to invite on Barca’s pressure, absorbing their attacks and nullifying them. 0-0 at the Nou Camp, 1-0 at Old Trafford, and United were one game away from winning the trophy again.
In his book, Neville reflected on how Queiroz prepared the players for that successful 2008 semi-final against Barcelona.
Carlos was obsessive, we’d never seen such attention to detail. We rehearsed time and again, sometimes walking through the tactics slowly with the ball in our hands. But the instructions were simple. Ronaldo up front tying them up. Carlos Tevez dropping on to Yaya Toure every time he got the ball. Let their centre halves have it. They couldn’t hurt us.
Whilst there was no shame in losing to Barcelona in the 2009 and 2011 finals, I’ll always wonder what we might have produced if it had been Queiroz sitting on the bench next to Ferguson and not Mike Phelan.
However much the manager may try to fight it, he is a sentimental bugger and sometimes he could do with someone who has a clearer view of the players and their capabilities. Don’t forget, Ferguson had John O’Shea ready to come on for the last minute of extra time in Moscow, only before Queiroz sensibly pointed out we would be better off bringing on someone who could take a penalty instead. O’Shea returned to the bench, Anderson came on and scored in the shoot out.
I’m not trying to suggest that Ferguson doesn’t know what he’s doing, that would be ridiculous, but his strengths are more to do with his man-management and ability to create a winning mentality amongst his players. There have been countless times when we’ve grumbled upon learning the team for a big game, only to concede at full-time the manager got it spot on. The grumbles seem to be getting louder though and at the moment, there isn’t much room for rolling our eyes and laughing at how Ferguson got it right yet again. It’s easy to sit here with hindsight and criticise what went wrong, but the mistakes seem fairly obvious.
We lost to Everton, our home game against Fulham was much closer than it should have been, we got away with it at Southampton thanks to the individual brilliance of Scholes and Van Persie, we got away with it against at Liverpool thanks to spectacular good luck, then finally we got found out against Spurs.
The second half performance on Saturday was some of the best football I’ve seen from United for ages. They played with real determination and desire, they were accurate in their passing, they created loads of chances and thanks to two efforts coming back off the woodwork, just ran out of time to make up for that first half performance.
Before looking at Ferguson’s part in the defeat, it’s important to note that the players have to take a lot of the responsibility for that defeat. Whilst substitutions helped change the game, every single one of those players on the pitch upped their game in the second half and Spurs barely got a touch. After being bossed in the first half, we enjoyed 82% possession in the second half. If they had played like that for the first 45 minutes we wouldn’t have faced that uphill battle in the second half. It’s also important to note that Ferguson made the right changes at half-time which could have secured us at least a point, if the performance was anything to go by, but the manager is not blameless in the defeat.
Ryan Giggs played 90 minutes against Liverpool and had a really poor game. With the likes of Tom Cleverley and Anderson on the bench, you have to wonder why Giggs not only got to start but why he wasn’t hauled off. Ferguson likes to play our homegrown players in the big games and I’d be lying if I didn’t enjoy a certain amount of sentimentality, but it crosses a line when it becomes costly. It should have cost us at Anfield and it did cost us against Spurs.
Ferguson rightly brought on Rooney for the second half and that changed everything. It wasn’t just the urgency in our play, as well as the added quality, but the impact was measurable. Six minutes after coming on he assisted Nani for our first goal. Ferguson saw what the problem was and he fixed it but we ran out of time. But why wasn’t Rooney on from the start?
I’m not going to pretend to know everything that goes on behind the scenes at United and who can really say what the impact of Mike Phelan is, but I saw his appointment in 2008 as a temporary move until we found a world class number two to replace Queiroz. Queiroz has a wealth of experience at an International level and of European club football, and is credited with discovering the “Golden Generation” for Portugal (including Luís Figo, Rui Costa, Fernando Couto, João Pinto, Jorge Costa and Vítor Baía, who went on to become the six most-capped players ever for the senior Portugal national football team). I’m not trying to be disrespectful of Phelan, I’m sure he must contribute something, but surely now is the time for Ferguson to get someone who will tell him straight, rather than a ‘yes man’ like it’s easy to imagine Phelan is. “Giggs? Starting again? No. Repeating the Carroll/Howard farce with De Gea and Lindegaard? No. Seriously competing for the league title and Champions League with that midfield? No. ” It’s not just Europe where you have to be so tactically astute these days either. The amount of Premier League teams that just set themselves up to defend and you have to find a way through them. Likewise, when playing against the stronger teams, you need a formation that can hold out the opposition whilst still allowing you to get that all important goal. Ferguson got this spectacularly wrong in one of our season defining games last season when we lost to Manchester City in the last few weeks before they lifted the title. We were absolutely toothless, were totally overrun, and it’s hard to argue the best team won the league last season. Yes, we threw it away, but when the two sides met each other in the league, Roberto Mancini got it right both times. Who knows what would have happened at Old Trafford if we hadn’t gone down to ten men in the first half (it wouldn’t have been 1-6 though, that’s for sure!) but the fact we kept pouring forward, not shutting up shop at 1-3, was ridiculous. The manager commented on this after the game, but during the 90 minutes he wasn’t on the touchline barking these instructions. If we’d got a point in either of these games we’d have won the league.
Phelan’s CV shows him as assistant to Gary Megson at Norwich, Blackpool and Stockport County. That’s it. Whatever raw talent he may have as a coach, who knows, it’s baffling really that he’s held this position for four years now. United have had undoubted success in that time and I’m sure Phelan is entitled to some credit for that, but we’re up against it this season and it surely couldn’t do any harm to bring someone more suitable in to give Ferguson support. That’s not to say that Phelan doesn’t have a place at our club but surely now, as Fergie approaches the end of his time at United, we should be looking at someone a bit more serious for such an important job at the club.
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Phelan is capable of putting out the cones at training – Thats it.
Meulensteen looks shifty and the rest look like they would fit in the Collyhurst working men`s club.
Ferguson has surrounded himself with “Yes Men”
That is why nobody said we NEED to make a tactical change against Everton last year when winning by a couple of goals.
The buck stops at the top. Nobody to criticize or contradict is exactly how SAF likes it.
If you do, you are gone Staam. Keano, Beckham,Van Nistelrooy.
spot on
Great article and some food for thought. Even the ‘easy’ games are becoming more and more difficult to win as modest clubs have very good training and coaching set-ups which have made them difficult to beat. That’s where you need motivtaed top quality players and no doubt about it an astute man on the sidelines. It’s difficult to see contribution Phelan makes but some of the team selection is bewildering at times and personally I despaired when I saw the team we put out at Etihad last year.
I also think that given the quality of the players we have we should play better football – too often our passing, control and understanding between players is not as good as it should be and that can only be a direct result of the coaching received.
100% true – yes men culture at the top – these guys are gone when Fergie goes – to quote Jimmy McNulty “they wont tell him when his shit stinks” because he is their bread and butter.
If Fergie truly believes what he said yesterday then we are in more trouble than we thought
“Anderson is a difficult one to leave out but I don’t think there’s been anything wrong with the form of Scholes or Carrick, which makes it difficult to involve other players when there’s always a desire to play with two wide players.”
People say we lost the league on goal difference – yes we did but in what other season did we have so many shocking results and perfromances across the range of competitions? We did not threaten in any of the cups (and were dumped out early in all 4 we entered) – we have spent a 100m on new players since May 2011 but only one is a guaranteed first choice (RvP).
The Everton game and the failure to reinforce the midfield at 4-2 despite numerous warnings as you say was criminal – truly criminal -
Interesting read. I was surprised that Quiroz wasn’t brought back after he lost the Portuguese Natl team post. He was a big help with Ronaldo and probably would have sorted Nani out. Bigger loss than many appreciate. Also think he was responsible for some brave ideas about formations in europe. Current list of coaches seem a bit to static for me, not willing to rock the boat. Still, hindsight is 20/20 innit.
It’s official… Man Utd have announced with great pleasure for a limited time only(1 SEASON) And the forthcoming fixtures the imminent return of Peter Schmickle, Gary Nevile, Silvester,Japp Stam,Denis Erwin,Roy Kean,Bryan Robson, Paul Ince,Mark Hughes, Van Nistolroy,Air Bobby Chilton, Denis Law, Lou Macari, Paddy Crerand and last but not least making a special appearance back from the dead George Best!!! Such is the desperation at the club where the manager was quoted as saying “No value in the market!”
Very well said. For me it’s not just about the tactics. From what I’ve heard, Fergie’s assistants handle a fair amount of the day to day training sessions. Which is natural since he can’t do it all at the age of 70. And if that’s the case, whoever has been in charge of the team’s training in recent seasons hasn’t done a good job. Our side lack organization in certain aspects (defending in general, attacking and defending set pieces and who the hell takes a penalty when Rooney is missing among others…)
Unfortunately, I can’t see anyone else taking Phelan’s job until Fergie retires. He seems hell bent on sticking with him. Maybe because he believes that a new assistant with new ideas would bring upon a transitional period. Something that Fergie doesn’t want since he wants to retire on top pretty soon.
The culprit for the rise in mediocracy over the last few years is not Phelan,easy option to scapegoat him.Nor is he responsible for team selection,tactics substituions or prepping the team or selecting players to be brought into the club.He is basically a trainer no more no less.I dont knowif he has an imput into the analysis of the results or not but if he and others have then they are failing badly by not forcefully pointing out how badly we are lacking in certain areas.
Most sensible peice of writing I have read for a while, you got it spot on.
Queiroz was a bigger loss to the club than C. Ronaldo himself! Since then, United have regressed to the same old BORING tactics and selections. Sure, we may not have the best squad in Europe or even in the league, but it’s our tactics that have left me scratching my head at times.
Still, Queiroz is also a person with “bigger eyes than stomach”, because it was him who decided he wanted to leave United, and time and time again we have seen that he is a very limited first-team manager. Sir Alex and Queiroz were a match made in heaven, it’s too bad nobody wants to be an Indian and everybody wants to be a chief.
However, I would welcome Queiroz back. In my opinion, guys like Cleverly, Anderson, Young would benefit from Queiroz and be able to better express themselves and find their places in the team, perhaps even Bebe!
agreed.
Absolutely spot on, Scot.
Neville wrote in his book about Queiros and that Barcelona game saying he used sit-up mats to mark the positions he wanted the players to occupy:
‘Carlos was obsessive, we’d never seen such attention to detail. We rehearsed time and again, sometimes walking through the tactics slowly with the ball in our hands. But the instructions were simple. Ronaldo up front tying them up. Carlos Tevez dropping on to Yaya Toure every time he got the ball. Let their centre halves have it. They couldn’t hurt us.’
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1279039-man-uniteds-decline-how-united-have-regressed-tactically-since-queiroz
interesting read also
as much as i hate to say it but i think there is a plan in place for mourinho to replace SAF
“Going back, we lost out to eventual winners, Bayer Leverkusen in the semi-finals in 97″
That was Borussia Dortmund. I can’t remember how many goal line clearances Jürgen Kohler had, but the look of a frustrated Eric Cantona will haunt me forever.
Great article scott and you have hit the nail on the head
Fergie is the manager and they are the coaches…what conclusion am i drawing other than the most obvious ones…every ex player says that fergie doesnt take the training sessions anymore and he is the best man manager…..he is not a tactician….as far as i know coaches always prepares dossiers of the opposition and its presented to the manager and of course the manger has the final say but the coaches take training everyday, surely to come out to a football match without an appointed penalty taker and always corner takers don’t seem to beat the first man we always seem disjointed and unable to string two passes together with too much quality in the team really there must be something needing sorting withing the coaching staff. Our way of keeping possession our movement into space and our formation…all are so erratic and unimaginative, very, very shocking
Like you said how do you explain a 4-2 lead at home with a little less than a few minutes to finish a coach doesn’t come off and tell players to see off the match or bring on one defensive player to deal with the threat that was quite obvious on that day vs everton.
How one expect a midfild 4 of giggs nani scholes and carrick to keep up with the pace of bale lennon, sandro and dembele, nani and giggs in the same line up was as shocking as ever firstly both doesn’t offer anything defensively secondly they are both wasteful in possession and one wonder who was going to defend unless carrick has two lungs to cover the whole of MF cause quite frankly scholes does not have the legs anymore to run up and down for 90mnts
STR took a while to compose himself to write this post. I’m sure if he had written this in the aftermath of the defeat to Spurs, it would have been way more damning of SAF.
“We lost to Everton, our home game against Fulham was much closer than it should have been, we got away with it at Southampton thanks to the individual brilliance of Scholes and Van Persie, we got away with it against at Liverpool thanks to spectacular good luck, then finally we got found out against Spurs.”
That pretty much says it all, and has been something a number of supporters here have been banging on for a while yet. We may have been getting results, and have had some games where we’ve managed to get our slick passing moves going. It is criminal however, to not have noticed that we’re always getting overrun in midfield. So to try and get away with it again against a top side like Tottenham (mind you, they should’ve been playing Champions League football if not for incredible luck for the rent boys) is ridiculous to say the least.
No one is bigger than the club. Not even SAF himself. It won’t be much longer before SAF steps down. And as STR has rightly pointed out that till then, our best bet would be to bring in a tactically aware assistant manager to sort things out in training.
I feel for Phelan. He seems to have become the convenient scapegoat for a lot of our fans but who amongst us really knows what level of input he has or is expected to have by Sir Alex? Phelan made the right tactical calls when he changed things around against Hanover in pre-season for example. He clearly isn’t clueless.
Ultimately if we’re going to take issue with the side and its set up then we have to take issue with Sir Alex. He has been managing for decades and has managed to adapt to the game over that time with various assistants Archie Knox, Brian Kidd, McClaren etc. Sir Alex brought in Quieroz cos he thought he had something to learn off of him and clearly he no longer feels that way. I’m not necessarily saying I think he’s right just that pin the tail on Phelan isn’t fair to my eyes.
The article is on point. I remember asking during the Everton why fergie didnt take off Nani and bring on someone more defensively responsible and we paid the price. Anderson and Cleverley play well together. Carrick could sit behind them in the mould of Busquets at Barca and Kagawa play on the left of rvp and rooney as he did in the 2nd half against spurs. We’re much better that way against the bigger teams .We dont lack players. We lack tactical nous. Phelan doesnt make the cut.
I’m struggling to post any decent comment to this article.
Finally, this is brought up by str.
Solksjaer anyone?
#Rumours
in the second half and took off rooney, cisse pulled one back and hit the crossbar, at the end winning it uncomfortably! [Rumours has it]
Phelan took charge of man utd vs newcastle game a fortnight ago in league cup a match in which kids enjoyed themselves until fergie returned
Rory.
I have been led to believe that it is Guardiola not Mourinho.When Sir Alec admitted meeting Guardiola in New York he did not say where he met him,that would very informative to me and would let me know if I am being fed horseshit.or not.
Don’t think no-one is blaming Phelan, but I’m sure we all wonder about his tactical nouse and ideas at times, seems a bit too much of yes man for my liking but I’m sure he offers something to Sir Alex and the team but he’s definitely no Queiroz, that is for sure.
Proverb – what are you blabbling about now? Rooney wasn’t assigned for 90mins soon after injuries and when you do have a,back line of just one appearance,between them, YES, you’re bound to look vulnerable.
Nice article even though im not 100% agree with that. BTW,
U should take another shot to another “culprit” in our backroom staff (YES, im talking about our “Mighty Psyho” Rob Swire)
Yes you would question his tactical nous as he’s just a little old bald headed cunt, what knowledge of the game must he have.
@parryheid
Ya true, maybe its just Mourinho looking, trying to pave/force a way into OT!! Interesting read below regarding Pep:
http://www.goal.com/en-india/news/2292/editorials/2012/09/30/3409317/analysis-pep-guardiolas-bid-to-succeed-sir-alex-ferguson?source=breakingnews
Don’t get me wrong, I am not calling for SAF’s head! just got side tracked…
Yip, well basically Scott, we’re losing the plot fella. We’re simply shit!
While it may a truth about that, our biggest hole wasnt/isnt tactical IMO. But down to our ridiculous amount of injuries. Tell me another club who lost their 3 CB (as well as had 12 injuries last season) but still able to compete in domestic league?
There must be something wrong with our training system or our medical system…
We don’t need Quiroz…BRING GARY NEVILLE HOME!!!!!
Was honestly sickening to see Gaz Neville sitting with Hodgson at Old Trafford the other day. WTF?
ji sung, Gary Neville’s still part of the England fold I believe.
We have heard it all before of course. That United are on the slide. That Sir Alex has lost the plot. That it’s the end of an era. On each occasion SAF and the Reds have bounced back to confound the critics and naysayers. But one is left wondering if, this time, the writing really is on the wall, as United’s squad and prospects seem thinner than at any time since Djemba Djemba, Kleberson, and Bellion graced the Theatre of Dreams. These worries are prompted not just by the defeats to Everton and Spurs but by any number of issues which, cumulatively, throw growing doubt on the team’s ability to compete at the highest level. These issues include the continuing reliance on players who have seen better days; the club’s transfer policy; the number of injuries to key players; erratic team selections; and dubious tactics.
While applauding the contribution that the likes of Scholes, Giggs, Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra, etc have made to the team over the years, the continuing heavy reliance on these players is distinctly worrying. Attempts have been made to plan for the succession in central defensive areas with the acquisition of Smalling and Jones, and it is United’s misfortune that these players have suffered so badly from injuries over recent months. But the weaknesses in central midfield are obvious to all, and must be obvious to the hierarchy at Old Trafford, too. This makes it all the more puzzling that nothing has been done to address the issue. All of which brings us to the next point: the club’s transfer policy.
While United have been linked with the likes of Sneijder, Ozil, Hazard, Moura, Modric, Dembele, etc, the only midfield signing has been Kagawa – not the sort of player, many might feel, United need as a priority (if at all). This begs the question as to whether United were really serious in their pursuit of the above-named players, and if they were, why none of them arrived. Were their clubs not offered enough? Were the players not tempted by the thought of playing at Old Trafford (and if not, why not?). Were other clubs’ offers more attractive? Or were the rumours just that: speculation designed to appease restless fans? The signing of Robin van Persie was hailed as a coup by the club and by many fans, but is he the type of player United really need? He breeches their stated transfer policy on age, has a poor injury record, has had just one outstanding season in an Arsenal jersey, cost a great deal of money for a club that always looks for ‘value in the market’, and his arrival could stunt the development of younger players such as Welbeck and Hernandez. Is he the final desperate throw of the dice for a manager who knows his time at Old Trafford is at last drawing to a close? RvP’s injury record also brings us to the next issue in the OT catalogue of worries.
Statistics produced for last season at http://www.physioroom.com showed that Manchester United were by far and away the most injury-prone team in the Premiership, with more players lost for longer periods than any other team in the division. No doubt the powers that be at Old Trafford would put this down simply to bad luck. While it is true that certain injuries were unfortunate – such as that to Nemanja Vidic in the Champions League – many others seem to have been self-inflicted. The numbers of injuries picked up in training is a worrying trait, and the pattern seems to be repeating itself this season. Add to this the further injury to Vidic, largely as a result of being rushed back into first team action too soon, and doubts begin to emerge about the competence of the training, fitness and medical staff. Owen Hargreaves raised these questions on his departure from Old Trafford last year, and his claims were dismissed at the time as ingratitude and sour grapes. But perhaps there was more than a grain of truth to them.
Then there is the issue of team selection. There have been numerous occasions, towards the end of the last season and at the beginning of this, when team sheets have raised eyebrows amongst Old Trafford regulars. The timid team selection at Manchester City springs to mind for one. But the side put out by Sir Alex against Spurs at Old Trafford at the end of September this season surely takes the biscuit. To put an ageing Giggs and Scholes up against the likes of Dembele and Bale was simply asking for trouble, and Spurs duly obliged. By the time some semblance of order had been restored, with Rooney replacing an ineffectual Giggs at half time, the damage had already been done. Yes, Cleverley and Anderson had played in midweek, but surely youngsters who have nothing else to do but train and play football can manage two games in a week.
And then there is the goalkeeping position. After a somewhat shaky start last season David de Gea established himself as one of the better goalkeepers in the top division. Given the cultural and language differences, and the fact that he had to play so often behind a constantly changing back four, he adapted remarkably well to life in the Premiership, especially for someone so young. This season he started by saving United from a severe beating at Everton yet lost his place because of one error that lead to a goal in the win at home to Fulham. Goalkeepers, arguably more than players any other position, need the support and confidence of their manager. De Gea has been ill-served in this regard by SAF.
The game against Spurs also highlighted another matter that has puzzled United fans and football commentators alike – United’s team tactics. To play a lone striker at home is simply not the United way. It hands the initiative to the opposition and disrespects the attacking traditions associated with this great club. It may be needed at times in difficult Premiership away games or in European competition, but not at Old Trafford against a team with a suspect defence and a poor record on the road. Partnering Nani with Rafael on the right flank doesn’t appear to make a lot of sense, either, as neither is particularly strong defensively. While SAF is one of the game’s great motivators he is no tactician, and the men around him seem to lack the tactical nous to compensate for the great man’s shortcomings in this part of the game.
To summarise then, what I am arguing here is that Manchester United appear to be on the slide. They finished last season poorly and have not played well so far this season, either, even in some of the games they have won (at Southampton and Liverpool, for example). They are far too heavily reliant on ageing stars who are past their best; have failed to strengthen the squad in key areas and appear to lack a coherent transfer strategy; are far too injury-prone as a squad; suffer from erratic team selections in key games; and lack the tactical nous of some of their main rivals.
Looming over all of this, of course, is the toxic shadow of the Glazers. Despite Sir Alex’s protestations to the contrary, there can be little doubt that the massive debts loaded on to the club to fund its purchase have severely impacted on United’s ability to compete for the best players. The only big-name signing since the arrival of Dimitar Berbatov in 2008 has been Robin van Persie, and I have questioned whether this was really the signing they needed above.
Things may improve, of course. The manager and team have turned it round in the past, and who is to say that they won’t do it this time around, too. But there appear to be structural weaknesses at Old Trafford that are not susceptible to short term fixes, and unless these are addressed United fans may have to prepare themselves for a lengthy barren period ahead.
Maybe putting the entire blame on Phelan isn’t fair. There’s also Rene. And at the end of the day, Fergie makes the decisions. That’s why for me, he’s the one that should have acted on this sooner. For the last 4 years, parts of his staff (training or medical) haven’t done their job properly, yet no changes have been made.
@TheCANTONA
Or both.
Sam my comment isn’t overly influenced by the one game that fergie took off rooney only..
We have seen numerous games where he took off our best performing player, one example is the tottenham game he took kags off and from that ponit we started looking fragile in attack, I mean he was the one who looked like creating something evertime he had the ball for gods sake, but again fergie god it all wrong .
While agreeing with you that rooney had just returned from injury and 90mnts would of been too much.
And that’s meant to be a rumour not a babble
Bring back bring back bring back my Queirouz to me…
Ohwowo bring back bring back my Queirouz to me hahahaha
The annoying thing for me is that it has all become so obvious I mean it is very clear to see for everyone what our faults are and what are strengths are and it headed become easy for them to expose our weaknesses and nullify our strengthens with ease and the management look as helpless as us fans
No change of systems just change of personnel based on individual performance and nothing else
Don’t tell me GNev developed all he “sense” in the vacuum of outer space. Think some are selling the club a bit short.
Questions questions. Who is responsible for tactical analysis of upcoming games?
By the way, there were rummors that we were going to bring in someone for a year or two. What ever happened to that?
@bred ye I know that ffs! But still……
This is barely regression, fergie has dragged this club on even when it should be crumbling, people will start seeing real regression when he packs it in, something your favorite “mourinho” won’t stay long enough to toughen out. Yes he makes blunders but For a man that’s won countless of trophies to have his tactical knowledge questioned is beyond baffling. If queiroz is so brilliant, why has he failed continiously to guide any top level club to success or fail at guiding his own national team? The brilliant maestro and legendary queiroz.
@Samuel
Quieroz is a good coach. He’s not a good manager. I wouldn’t say he knows more than Sir Alex because he doesn’t. But does he compliment him better than Mike Phelan? Is he a better coach than Mike Phelan? Without a doubt for me.
Costas
I agree with you. Like I have said in the other day, just refresh the managerial team (which include Rene & Phelan) to bring in more fresher tactic.
Our tactical seems too obvious nowadays, I can tell you.
1. Giggsy will play important match (i.e: Liverpool, Spuds).
2. Kagawa will not play in full time and will be replaced by Welbz.
3. Hernandez to play in injury times.
4. Our team rely heavily on Scholesy and Carrick, while we have Cleverley and Anderson.
Great read.I agree 100%
Costas – none of us know how good phelan is, we don’t know how much of his input are evident in the squad. We don’t know if queiroz was a yes man or not or is any better than phelan, we’re all outsiders on this issue, no matter how much impression we give of knowing about what goes on, underestimating his abilities as a coach doesn’t sit right.
Excellent post, although I felt you seemed to put more emphasis on getting rid of Mike Phelan than making suggestions on who could replace him?
Also Ferguson seems to be surrounding himself with English coaches, rather than the foreigners like Quieroz; but if you were to suggest someone – who would it be?
The team relies on scholes because players have simply not showed reliability which fergie feels he would get out of his trusted marksmen. I agree that anderson and clev should get prominent roles but can they string 50 games together without cracking, can they take over the mantle/responsibility?.
Exactly my thoughts scott. I have been saying this for quite a long time that phelan is not doing a great job. 2nd coach should be someone who challenges the wrong decision taken by the manager but Phelan is a yes man. Even during the matches I have never seen phelan talking to players, he is just sitting in dug out and smiling. Not united quality honestly.
Great Article
I agree with samuel in that we don’t know what goes on behind closed doors but to me it seems that everytime we play we look a little disjointed and we lack a bit of understanding and cohesion. The understanding and cohesion comes from the training ground and the coaching so if it isn’t there on the pitch then somebody isn’t doing their job as well as they could be and that’s why the finger is pointing at Phelan for not being up to the job and Fergie for leaving him to it.
I don’t believe Queiroz is our saviour.The man was around when we had a similar crisis post beckham.It doesn’t have to be Queiroz,it can be someone else.There are many Young Coaches out there who can be of great use to us…
ash – How can quality be defined by what gesture a coach makes on the sidelines. He “smiles” and therefore, he’s not good enough. like i’ve said, none have any insight as to how good queiroz was, yes we had success but how do we know other coaches didn’t contribute, how do we know queiroz was this emperor fergie took his hat off for?. If’s and But’s.
I’m glad I don’t get my footballing insight from “bleacher report” or “goal.com”, some plonkers disguised as football writers/pundits roam about.
Samuel
” I agree that anderson and clev should get prominent roles but can they string 50 games together without cracking, can they take over the mantle/responsibility?.”
We can only know that if we give them proper chance. I have said it many times that this should be the season where clev plays 40 games atleast. He needs it. We need to look at the future. Playing giggs and scholes is not helping anyone. Clev is 23 so he is no longer a kid. He has to play now.
“Finally, this is brought up by str.”
I thought everyone else was talking about this after the 2009 Champions League final. We were 2-0 down with time left and Phelan was slumped on his seat like a tired stoner: no ideas, a beaten man and a beaten team.
Isn’t it in Scholes’ biography where he talks about the preparation they did for Barcelona in 2008, under Quieroz? It was intense, detailed, and it worked.
Tactics matter. Ferguson said Zidane isn’t the kind of player that hurts you and, well, number 10s like Zidane, Maradona, Iniesta, Pirlo, Laudrup and Scholes etc are, imho, the kind of players that dictate games and hurt teams most of all. Ronaldo is remembered during those 2003 encounters with Real but after Ferguson’s comments it was Zidane who stood head and shoulders above everyone else over the two legs and set up most things. Ferguson is a master of the British style of football and management, but if he could bounce off someone as like Queiroz (who just doesn’t have the ability to successfuly manage teams, which is okay: it’s a hard task) I think we’d be in a much stronger position. We should have won another European Cup after 2008; we were certainly better than the winners in 2010 and 2012.
Bob charlton – I look at united as a unit and I agree that we lack cohesion and other things you’ve listed, we should be looking at every member to rectify that. Manager, coaches and more importantly, the players who perhaps are not carrying instructions to detail or are not stepping up their game. It’s a collective issue, I personally wouldn’t point finger solely at phelan who is just a part and not the entire full running machine.
Honestly scott after having thought about this for a while, your clutching at straws fella. As if its phelans fault the team are not performing?! Ah let’s just blame Phelan and talk shit. As if we have any of the slitest clue how much he brings to the team. Only the club, players, saf etc know what he does. So its very poor coming from you to say how shite Phelan is and single the man out. Its the players that need to take the blame not Phelan. In my opinion we’re just simply not a world class side anymore! We’re simply average and have seen the team put in many an average performance over the last couple years or so. We’ve got no defense, suspect fullbacks, a clueless, weak midfield, injured wingers and defenders, a goalkeeping disaster of a situation etc. Our centre forwards and strikers are world class though but that means a little though to be fair when the. Rest of your team is a shambles. We need a beast of a defender in january, some1 like a Vertongen. The lad was unreal against us on saturday, someone who is young, quick and strong, + everything we can to break the bank for Gareth Bale imo. Our wingers are just so unreliable at the minute. Yes I love AV7 and obviously he’s an exception but he’s injured quite often and it doesn’t do the team any favors! + we need cover for Rafael as well. Shits gone pear and to be honest I’m shitting myself for tonight game against Cluj. If we can’t beat them then I somply don’t know what to say anymore. Come on United! Sort it out. Its depressing watching MUFC and its been this way for quite some time now. FFS. So frustrating
Honestly scott after having thought about this for a while, your clutching at straws fella. As if its phelans fault the team are not performing?! Ah let’s just blame Phelan and talk shit. As if we have any of the slitest clue how much he brings to the team. Only the club, players, saf etc know what he does. So its very poor coming from you to say how shite Phelan is and single the man out. Its the players that need to take the blame not Phelan. In my opinion we’re just simply not a world class side anymore! We’re simply average and have seen the team put in many an average performance over the last couple years or so. We’ve got no defense, suspect fullbacks, a clueless, weak midfield, injured wingers and defenders, a goalkeeping disaster of a situation etc. Our centre forwards and strikers are world class though but that means a little though to be fair when the. Rest of your team is a shambles. We need a beast of a defender in january, some1 like a Vertongen. The lad was unreal against us on saturday, someone who is young, quick and strong, + everything we can to break the bank for Gareth Bale imo. Our wingers are just so unreliable at the minute. Yes I love AV7 and obviously he’s an exception but he’s injured quite often and it doesn’t do the team any favors! + we need cover for Rafael as well. Shits gone pear and to be honest I’m shitting myself for tonight game against Cluj. If we can’t beat them then I somply don’t know what to say anymore. Come on United! Sort it out. Its depressing watching MUFC and its been this way for quite some time now. FFS. So frustrating
Good debate and a subject that has been mentioned for years here and there.
RVP and Rooney will play today! Learn the others game. Together with the rest can strike fear in all they play!!!
COME ON UNITED!!!!!!!
Its really been something rumbling around in the comments here for years. It usually gets shut down because of the loyalty fans feel towards Sir Alex and his coaches by extension. I remember the season after queiroz left and though we still had many of our finer players at the time in the form of Ronaldo, tevez, etc, there was an almost instant change in the way we played football. It was less fluid, more direct, and far more dependent on the traditional wing play as opposed to the ‘organized chaos’ we had going earlier. Also our defence in fact continued to improve, becoming almost impenetrable for as long as Vidic and Rio were together. I feel the success that continued despite quieroz’s departure masked how we were playing a tactically inferior brand of football. and who could argue against the results? We really have been blessed in the quality of players we have had. I feel now that the age of Scholes, Giggs and Ferdinand is beginning to show and the injuries at the back are mounting that we have been exposed. We dont defend as a team, the high energy game is missing, the passing is labored, and we have failed to adopt the short quick passing game that would suit our more technical players. Not to mention i remember how engaged Sir Alex was with Carlos as opposed to Rene and Mike.
It is very difficult to imagine Quieroz returning as an assistant though. He has now stepped up to managing and he wont want to step down again. It would also depend on how successful the Iranian national team is. Am sure if he wanted to return the period after his stint as Portuguese national coach would have been the time. And agree Sir Alex wouldn’t want to work with an entirely new coach at this point. Just hope he is able to get the most out of his current team of coaches and players. The second half last week showed its not all doom and gloom. I suppose it will get decided one way or another this year. We cant carry on like this, we have some money heading in from our commercial deals, and this is the year that our new look midfield either make it or we look to rebuild (again.)
Brilliant article. I agree with it 100%. It’s something that does go unnoticed.
Querioz changed things for the better at Old Trafford. During his tenure we were playing some of the best football we’ve played under SAF.
Fergie seems to have a blindspot to certain things.
I think people are taking this article wrong. The blame isn’t directed at Phelan. He’s by all means a good coach, but it takes that little bit extra to be a no2. He’s good, but just not good enough. We need that extra lil bit of tactical nous when SAF makes that rare tactical mistake. It’s as Scott says, he’s a ‘yes man’
It’s the coaches that take the training sessions and have all the day-to-day pitchside dealings with the players. i’ve heard players hit out at Carlos’ training activities but it bought results.
Lets all just blame phelan…..
Haha #phelanOUT
OHHHH NO. We are NOT blaming Phelan for this one. No matter what he or any other assistant coach who has EVER been at United under Fergie does, there is still a more powerful man above him who can overrule EVERYTHING he says and basically is the final authority on everything football related that goes on at this club……. SIR ALEX FERGUSON.
Mike Phelan not up to scratch
SAMUEL:
“I’m glad I don’t get my footballing insight from “bleacher report” or “goal.com”, some plonkers disguised as football writers/pundits roam about.”
To be fair to the bleacher report article, lol, it certainly makes some sense regarding our more technically gifted players such as anderson, nani, (berbatov(i am a big fan btw), obertan), chico etc, i feel queiroz could have progressed these players more than Phelan as now they have either been sold or fallen by the way side. Whether or not that is his fault or not, who am I to say but certainly our direction in terms of team selection, formation and tactics and individual player roles seem to be anybodys guess at the moment. Obviously something is not right. I just hope we get these issues sorted asap.
COME ON UNITED!!
And I bet next week up will be a new story innit!?
What next?? Tony Strudwick, the fitness and aconditioning coach….
The point i’m making here is that Mike Phelan is not responsible for our less tactical play or for Scholes and Giggs playing more than they should or for underestimating the opposition on numerous occasions in Europe. Sir Alex Ferguson is. He’s the head coach of the club. Anything he says is final. Yesterday he STILL said that the reason why Anderson is not getting game time is because thee is nothing wrong with the form of the midfielders he is putting out currently. That wasn’t something planted in his head by Mike Phelan. That is something he said himself.
@Samuel
Of course we can’t know exactly what goes on at Carrington with each assistant every day, but I think you can make a valid estimation over the course of a couple of years. Comparing United 04-08 to United 08-12, I believe there are significant differences. Both in organization and the way we defend. As for being a yes man, I doubt CQ was some kind of rebellious figure, but I am certain he expressed his ideas more often than Phelan. Like the situation that Scott mentioned from the Ch.League final.
Haha was being sarcastic there..
We don’t know who’s responsible for this dreadful performances
Maybe the players, if they decided to step up their game in the second half after the introduction of rooney only which imo wasn’t all pivotal should take the blame aswell not only giggsy
All of that is nothing to do with Phelan. Unless he’s introduced a rule that they all wear super tight shorts whilst training
The problem with SAF is that he’s 70.He’s washed up and modern football has defeated him.Simple.Its nature.He has to step down before we turn to liverpool.He’s doing a lot of thing Benitez was criticised for.
The worst assistant may be SAF chose to keep by his side, not that reliable when things turn sour, and only SAF’s “hair-dryer” give the lads the kick required at times, Phelan is more suited to be the kit-man than assistant manager.
STR, good read. My thanks.
What has been confusing to me, and my boys, is why, oh why, does SAF play a 4-5-1 at home leaving Rooney, Chicha and Wellbeck on the bench. This has become a trend at home that leaves us really puzzled at what the tactical intent of the match is supposed to be. Away from home in a tourney where you want to get a result away, I can see taking a more disciplined, cautious approach but to do the same at home smacks of a lack of ingenuity and/or confidence in the team to play that formation.
As soon as Rooney came in the other day and took a more forward role, things really opened up. A defense knows that it is easier to man-mark that one striker and keep an eye on a trailing player rather than having to man-mark two attackers. Seems obvious from this side of the pond……
As for his assistants, they have to be partly to blame for all of the reasons stated by many of the posters. As a youth soccer coach, you do not always see what is going on across the whole pitch which is why it is so important to have an assistant that will tell you that ” you got it all wrong” and you listen and react accordingly. Phelan and company do not bring that aura of confidence like Carlos always did.
Hoping for a result today at Cluj.
That ’99 team wasn’t tactically naive. they were so fucking good that Fergie realized that others should have to try to figure out how to deal with us, not the other way around. And he was right.
The gaping hole in our side isn’t Queroz (though I was happy to have him and happy to have him back. In fact, the gaping hole is one of the less popular United players of the last 10 years: Owen Hargreaves. HE was the engine room player Fergie bought to outwork, out fight and out run opponents in the middle. Sadly, his body couldn’t keep up with his style of play.
Remember, the boy is still only 31. Had he been the feature player Fergie anticipated for the last 3-4 years, we wouldn’t be talking about the absence of a Manchester United midfielder with the Robbo / Keano style of commitment.
SB
The form of TWO central mids with a combined pace and energy of Carrick and Scholes is nothing, compared to a central link up of Clevs, Ando and Kagawa. Scholes will always put United in position to score goals when United is camped in the other team’s half. But in open play against good teams, the team suffers. Even Carrick is more forward than usual. When Scholes sprays a ball to the right, he charges into the box…oh shit, where’s the cover for the counter?! Why is Carrick closer to the box than the halfway line! We’ll see how United look today in terms of midfield mobility and shape. It’ll be interesting and fun.
The form of TWO central mids with a combined pace and energy of Carrick and Scholes is nothing, compared to a central link up of Clevs, Ando and Kagawa. Scholes will always put United in position to score goals when United is camped in the other team’s half. But in open play against good teams, the team suffers. Even Carrick is more forward than usual. When Scholes sprays a ball to the right, he charges into the box…oh shit, where’s the cover for the counter?! Why is Carrick closer to the box than the halfway line! We’ll see how United look today in terms of midfield mobility and shape. It’ll be interesting and fun.
Great read, thanks.
@ ji sung
And you’re not being reactionary at all, saying we need, specifically, Gareth Bale and ‘someone like Vertonghen’, after both thiae exact players played well and scored against us on Sat…
Hows “the boy” gettin on now?! lol
hi guys, iv had something on my mind for a while regarding tactics. ferguson’s argument for his treatment of Berbatov was that tactically he was moving towards an emphasis on speed. Fair enough but how does having a 1st team midfield selection comprised of scholes+carrick sometimes giggs illustrate an emphasis on speed???
if our wings are having a bad day and rooney isn’t playing we dont even have the ability to launch a centrally orientated counter attack. scholes and carrick have their attributes, but playing two deep lying midfielders presents a huge problem as both of them do not posses the ability to beat a man regularly and carry the ball up often enough to bring players like kagawa and rvp into the game. this is precisely why rooney made such a massive impact in the 2nd half of the tottenham game. suddenly we had a way to get the ball to the box with speed, drive and immaculate passing.
it just seems to me like if fergies emphasis is on speed then he is neglecting the heart of the team. because between scholes, carrick and giggs there is none.
Hi all.Nice read STR
@ kanchelskis – its a fact that ever since Ronaldo left, we’ve been on the slide ever since. Its clear to me we need a player that can make the difference for us when we need it most. Bale is that type of player imo and the type of player we’re lacking and that’s a fact! We lacking a young, quality, strong, quick centee back! And that’s a fact mate! We can’t rely on jones(who I think is an average footballer) and smalling who are 2 sicknotes. Just as we can’t rely on Ashley Young and Valencia. Its actually stupid blaming Phelan imo and there’s no point in doing so…
End of
@ Rory: “The boy” is getting on very poorly, which is exactly why he’s a bigger “what if?” in my eyes than Querioz.
The “lol” is why I acknowledged he’s one of the least popular players of the last 10 years. But had he been able to keep up with the pace he set in ’08, there would be a lot more songs about him than just the one about curly hair.
SB
First, ℓ̊ must give kudos to Scot for this write up. Finally you saw something Bad in SAF and you pointed it out, kudos.
Everything wrong with our Medical and training is SAF, he is grown too old to do the , we all have old men in our family somewhere and who can honestly a 70 year old can effectively manage a club of United’s size? Who?.
ℓ̊ wrote somewhere on this blog that in SAF United have a big monster that can’t be conquered easily but ℓ̊ was called names and insulted but the facts don’t lie no matter how hard we try to cover them.
Tactically we are very poor its almost unbelievable, subs wise we are more than poor, taking Kags off for Welbeck sounds like the thinking of a ten year old and doing that while leaving Hernandez on the bench is just plain stupid.
Starting Giggs at Anfield in that trnsion charged atmosphere is up there with the greatest managerial error of all time, closely followed by Starting Giggs and Carrick against Sandro, Dembele and Dempsey, ℓ̊ was shocked beyond words.
Take a look at Arsenal bringing in Steve Bould to toughen the defence at Arsenal up and retiring Pat Rice that si what changes and Evolution is all about….. Building modern day Training and medical facilities without good hands to use them is plain ridiculous and sorrounding urself with ‘yes men’ and firing or alienating anyone against you e.g Keano is wrong and not the way forward and all this things couple with some inherent stubborness has made our darling United what it is today. Fergie is a dictator , one that doesn’t like being queried and challenged and for this ℓ̊ am scared.
Our problem is even deep rooted than ℓ̊ thought when ℓ̊ heard Fergie say he doesn’t know our first choice goalkeeper or first choice strike pairing, and also his comment on Ando is baffling.
But like Scot said, ℓ̊ don’t think it will change until Fergie leaves Man United am afraid….. It is well
Arsenal has suddenly become so well organised that comes as a surprise they were the weakest teams in the league last season
I think the problem defensively is that we are only dependent in certain players being fit to maintain defensive effectiveness since we don’t defend as a team
So we need individuals to come and make a difference aka carrick in midfield, vida and ferdy in for selection.
When they are out the whole team suffers defensively and it becomes evident why is it we are shipping in alot of goals because there is no discernible plan for defending as a team. That also is mikeyyy phelans incompetence?
Where’s Bebe? Does any1 have a clue what the story is with that guy? He went on pre season tour, scoreda last minute equaliser or whatever and nobody’s heard of him since? He hasn’t featured for the 21′s once this seaosn as well. #wheresBEBE
Oh and on the subject of Bebe, who was the man that told Fergie to sign him?????? Oh ye it was Carlos Quieroz wasn’t it? Yes it was! Just something to think about b4 you all jump on the bandwaggon…
@ji sung
Not denying we’re not as good as we have been in recent history, but to point to the wings and CB as areas we need to strengthen I find odd.
Smalling has looked quality when he’s got a run of games, which he surely will when he’s available again.
An on-form Bale is no better than an on-form Nani or Valencia. Once Nani’s cleared his head and Young is back we’ll be fine in that dept.
For me, the hole in our team is achingly obvious. So much so, I don’t even think I need to identify it.
Lexxy
I don’t think str pointing on SAF in this article. He is comparing Fergie assistants (Queiroz and Phelan) and United achievements on champions league.
Fergie needs balance in making decisions, he got it from Queiroz but not from Phelan.
BS….. Who chooses the assistants! Me?
Speaking of last season and us losing the title at everton, may i ask what about the blackburn game when rooney went clubbing and the other players were were shuffled out of position save for the goal keeper. imagine rafael played in midfield and my post blasting fergie were blocked by scott. now the cockerel has come home to roost and the same issues that got me banned briefly from posting r being allowed led by scott himself. we need ole as number 2
Bebe since getting caught stealing andos heartattack macdonalds lunch was locked in the kitchen See now ando and rooney are getting thinner
Such miracle could be managed by keeping bebe in the kitchen
I wish some bloggers here would stop the vitriol against bebe, he showed in pre season how far alongg he’s come. fergie should send him on for nani and allow us to see among those two who has regressed
Darren Fletcher return to Scotland squad
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/mobile/scotland/19797111
I would say fletcher has to play infront of the back four instead of carrick with two of anderson,kagawa,cleverley, rooney in front, scholes would be on the bench and carrick would be shipped to west ham. Im not saying he’s a bad player but he’s not good enough for united, he just doesn’t move.
The tackling and dynamism against liverpool and totenham was a disgrace! I havn’t seen such a limp display in a long time. They dont seem up for it all, whiles carrick and scholes are in there our defence will get raped, and not just against the top 4, Teams like everton, newcastle, liverpool, totenham even a fulham can piss pass our midfield.
Its got to be sorted or were in for another shit season
Cool down mate. Even if Fergie who choosed his assistant, it is not the point that str want to put in this article. This is rather to suggest to bring someone more suitable in to give Ferguson support, rather than to put the blame on Fergie. Fergie is more on leaderships, charisma and motivator, and he still needs someone to help him make decission on tactical. Of course he made all decission, that’s why he is the boss! But he needs input from his coaches.
And you came here to bash Fergie by referring to this article. Cool down mate.
Are YOU serious @sheppertoni?
Carrick’s the only DM who manages to keep fit more often that not, besides he’s the only experienced DM who’s able to do a job whenever is picked, fletcher is good but as of now we don’t know if he can return to his best self or if his illness will drag him back again
So keeping carrick is the most sensible thing we can do now, its not like he’s the one causing all the things mentioned here
All we need to reach the top european level is a world class centre mid, but for some reason Fergie wont have it.
Scholes was only effective second half against spurs because they sat off of him. First half he capitulated under pressure, to the extent where he sat in the back four to desperately try and find space. Both Scholes and Carrick were way too deep, not moving forwards which completely isolated Kagawa and RvP. Its time to move forwards.
Who gets most injury time? Why are Man Utd’s losses GOOD for their title hopes? Martin Tyler has the answers… http://bit.ly/PUgHYh
Things need perspective as said by STR.Our lack of a Queiroz-esque assistant is hurting the team.This is why fans are getting exasperated and they dont sing at Old Trafford.Its in all United blogs and other forums about our poor support.Reds are almost coming to punches yet we support one team.It aint funny folks when our own support starts arguing amongst themselves coz one is loud and others are telling them to shut up.I wish i could make it to Old Trafford and support United live.
spot on
Personally, I don’t like passing judgment on things that others are doing which I can’t do, and of which I have no first hand experience/viewing of what they’re doing. It’s speculation, and speculation is nothing but a waste of time.
Looking forward to the team’s performance later. By the way, has no one noticed a pattern in which when we do well at the weekend, we then do badly in midweek, and vice versa?
Carlos Queiroz was brilliant as a number two but don’t forget that he was aided by a world class squad (Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez, Hargreaves, Scholes, Rio, Vidic, Brown, etc) where most of the players were in their prime. It would be interesting to see if he can have the same impact on the current team as he did on the 07/08 team.
Bishopville Red @ 13:34: “The gaping hole in our side isn’t Queroz (though I was happy to have him and happy to have him back. In fact, the gaping hole is one of the less popular United players of the last 10 years: Owen Hargreaves. HE was the engine room player Fergie bought to outwork, out fight and out run opponents in the middle. Sadly, his body couldn’t keep up with his style of play.”
I agree AND you could also add that DarrenFletcherinho’s illness compounded the loss of Hargreaves.
However, I think that the problem is much deeper which becomes obvious when comparing the 2008 team with the current one:
Edwin BETTER than DDG/Lindegaard
RedNev BETTER than TheLittleTiger
2008Evra BETTER than 2012Evra
2008Vidic BETTER than 2012Vidic
2008Rio BETTER than 2012Rio
2008Scholes BETTER than 2012Scholes
2008Giggs BETTER than 2012Giggs
CR7 BETTER than AV7/Nani – Ashley Young (don’t make me laugh !)
MIchael Carrick/TheWayneBoy are probably about equal in their 2008/2012 versions
While RVP/KagawaBunga are possibly BETTER than Carlitos.
SO, when you look at playing personnel, there’s a HUGE ADVANTAGE to the 2008 squad over the current one.
BUT I think that the better comparison might be 2008/2014 which seems to be the time when the transition from the 2008 squad will be just about complete. In the meantime, it’s just churlish to lay blame at the feet of Meulesteen or Phelan. Players win matches and, right now, UTD’s squad just isn’t as good as it was in 2008. THAT seems obvious to me.
The CL final in 2011 was a tactical disaster, and last seasons European campaign was just dreadful. This article is spot on. Sentimental figure? Absolutely. Like Scott says, in years gone by, we have just been that much better than everyone else. Now when cracks are starting to show in the team it doesn’t work anymore. Yet because of all the incredible success, this subject is very much taboo among united fans. It’s almost as if past performance is the only factor that determines future success. You know what, times change. The yes-man aspect of Phelan’s role is unfortunate. Even the greatest of men need a wall to bounce off ideas, it keeps things fresh. Of course, we don’t know what goes happens on the training ground, but we sure as hell see what happens on the pitch at match-days.
Spot on CL 2011 final – wrong selection, lifeline at half time and nothing done, given up at 70 mins
I think we are missing the point .We are relying on scholes (38)and giggs (40) still . Why? Fergie goes not trust cleverly and ando. The midfield is the only area that fergie has not improved the last 4 years. It’s unacceptable. Look at spurs, arsenal, Newcastle. They have all bought decent midfielders without breaking the bank .
In 2008, the back five was impenetrable. It wasn’t Gaz who dominated at right back, it was Wes Brown who had a career year. Vida and Rio were the best central defensive pair in the world and Evra was one of the best in the world going up and down the left all while defending.
The attacking trio of Ronaldo, Tevez and Rooney combined work rate, skill, pace and selflessness perfectly. The midfield had bite, energy and control.
thats been the problem he never did replace carlos….i like mickey phelan but what does he bring as a number 2? not much really…i like rene aswell but i would like to see scholes and giggs retire at the end of the season and take up coaching roles, also wish nev was there swell
also the manager saying that he is willing to play scholes a 38 year old in front of ando doesnt really help much although i rate scholsey even at this age ando is the future not scholes, he needs the constant games so we can see if he really is good enough otherwise ship him on..but sayin that about scholes and that him and carrick havent done any wrong this year..hes obviously not been paying attention to any of our games then has he….i say get fletch in there with ando and see how they do, even put valencia in there and nani on the right, jesus do sumthin other than what ur coin….
hopefully get a win 2nite and a good win but i would take a 1 nil with a great performance…a few good performances is what we need, especially with sat comin at st james park or the sports direct whatever the fuck u wana call it…but most importantly 3 frikin points
Been saying this for a while. Fergie needs to go out and appoint a few STRONG backroom staff. The kind of men that will tell Fergie when he is WRONG. Like his consistently laughable team selection. More to the point we need somebody with a tactical brain. Pep had Villanova. We need somebody because Fergie tactically as a manager is awful. Always has been thats been the major reason behind our lack of success in Europe in the last 20 years.
We all remember the fans’ criticism of Queiroz during his first spell at the club in 2002/3. Turning us from an all-out attacking side into the patient, retaining possession beast we became. There is no doubt CQ played a massive role in our success in 07/08, but he was at the club from 2004 onwards, during our barren spell. While I am fairly sure Mick isn’t a great tactician, we haven’t been starved of success in recent years, and the only real complaint is that we often play very unattractive football. Arsenal play some wonderful stuff, but it isn’t very effective when the chips are down.
Scott, this is so in line with my thoughts that it is scary!!
Would have taken a transition period any time given a new assistant manager and increased playing time for the talents.
@ Denton Davey:
“KagawaBunga” – don´t know if you should take the cred for that nickname, but it is hilarious!
@proverb yeah im serious, I dont think he does do a job mate, he’s to static and he cant tackle. i would much rather see energy and movement. He only plays all the time because the others are injured, like you said. I’m hoping fletcher gets back to his best and push carrick out.
@sheppertonni
Lets not pretend that Fletcher was ever really a brilliant player.
He had ONE good season and that was it.
Fletcher is another example of sentimentality and favouritism by SAF.
I wish Fletcher well, but you put him in against Yaya Toure and he will look ridiculous. When it comes down to big important games against true quality midfielders, Darren Fletcher, even at his “best” is not your man. Trust me.
Ha ha ha! I’m saving this thread! The same negative bullshit that pops up every fucking year from everyone and then people eat humble pie!
Fucking mugs!
@Alex YOUR the mug!
Nobody here is saying United will do bad, or wishing it. Simply saying that our side hasn’t CONVINCED as it did since Queiroz’s departure – that’s not to say we haven’t won since. The tactics, the fluency and the manner in which we have won games just hasn’t been to the best of our ability or rich history.
Yes, we won against Fulham, but we were still LACKING a certain je ne sais quoi!
And really, if you disagree, then you might as well be watching United’s games with your eyes closed!
Actually, all these beating around the bush must stop before it’s TOO LATE ( it’s already late ). Utd’s management is outdated, no top Club plays with out-and-and out wingers anymore. Utd is doing this for years now but we had strong central midfielders like Keane to hold it. Now, CM is weak to the core and we try to rely on two 100-year old genii. SAF has probably lost the touch with modern football. Kagawa is not a winger, not a CM. He’s a creator with soft touches. At D’mund he was successful because there are top midfielders there and a strong center fwd. Do Utd have all these to support Kagawa? No. I am not sure why SAF thinks he IS UTD. His time had come and preditably, gone. He has lost the capacity to buy the right player ( not for money but by choice ). Spending ( some say wasting ) about 50m pds in summer of 2011 to buy Young, Jones and De Gea was apalling. Where are they now? What did we win that season? We needed good defenders. Vertonghen, Van d Weil, Cahill all went for peanuts compared to our purchases. So, SAF., please take your bow and let the Club move on, don’t let Utd become a Liverpool. Jose may still be available.
spot on article couldnt agree more!!
The only thing wrong with it is we lost to Dortmund in 97 not Leverkusen again!
Awesome piece Scott.. Best article I have read in ages..!!!!!!!!!
Mediocrity.. You hit the matter on the nail.. Spot On..
At present, the only person in our squad who can hold his own is Scholes against quality opposition..
Look at the way he controlled the tempo in the Second half against Spurs..
Also, if Keano had been on the pitch for the Cluj game, he would have torn into Evra for not sticking close to the right winger for the cross that lead to the goal..
Screw the tactics and gameplan… as it is, the players dont have a leader.. No GoTo guy who has this “Give the Ball to Me and I will do the Rest” look on his face..
We all know how Ronaldo would ask for the ball and then run at the opposition.. That killer instinct is what we lack now..
Nani wants to be that player but his shooting is crap and he loses the ball far too often to be called World Class.. Selling him for 25 mill seems a good piece of busines.
Sadly Cleverely is not the answer to Scholes.. And Anderson ????? is just a talented trequartista wasted as a defensive midfield…
And Hernandez is a confidence player.. at present the look on his face is very very bad.. he knows he is not the starting striker and he is panicking at the crucial moments..
A midfield orchestrator to replace Scholes (M’Vila), a defensive stalwart(Subotic, Hummels, Sakho), A Destroyer (Tiote), A Direct Threat(Neymar ?????)
Ji Sung – Did you read anything from the article? Can you show me where I said “how shite” Phelan is? Can you explain why you think I singled him out?
Our team isn’t as good as it has been so we need an experienced world class #2 to help us out. Phelan’s experience mean it’s impossible for him to have the experience we require. That is just fact, not opinion.
Scott. You have just singled out exactly why we are not the same Utd of old.
URGENTLEY:::: we need a full blast number 2 and he has to be someone who has got the nowhow of today’s modern game.
People ask who will be the one ? Sincerley I don’t know coz I don’t know who is available !
All I can say is that if we don’t improve drastically our pattern and style of our game, we are in trouble this season.
@shinja ninja. yeah i know he’s not in the top bracket mode but i wouldnt go as far to say he’d look ridiculous against yo yo. end of the day he’s the best we’ve got in that role.
All this hype about toure, he’s not that good, it’s just his size and speed that sets him apart.