Fans react to takeover – May 12th 2005
Glazer takes control of United – May 13th 2005
What will be the Glazer effect – May 13th 2005
Glazer gets 98% of United shares – June 28th 2005
Q&A: What next in Glazer takeover – June 28th 2005
Glazers escape after fan protests – June 30th 2005
Glazer makes promise to Ferguson – July 1st 2005
Fans not won over by Glazers’ vow – July 1st 2005
Gloom remains as Glazer speaks out – July 2nd 2005
Glazer sums ‘fail to add up’ – July 8th 2005
Fans’ Glazer protest ‘peaceful’ – Augusth 10th 2005
Glazers play down European defeat – December 8th 2005
Man Utd News 24/7
so the fans were right in not trusting the glazers even then. shame david gill gave in after rejecting their first offer. Things could have been so, so different.whatever it is lets hope things get sorted out in the near future before they fuck us up totally
The financial and business regulation that allowed this kind of takeover of sports clubs should have been outlawed long before Glazers knew about United. You’d think that Government, FA and Premier League were there to protect clubs from vultures, obviously not.
Why cant we have a model like Barcelona? It is working perfectly well for them.
United fans are in a catch-22 position. The only way to get rid of the Glazers is to hit them where it hurts, but what would consequences of that be for our beloved club?
LUHG
2005 – the year when our club was debt-free.
Barcelona currently in debt of about £400m and also looking to borrow to up grade the new camp thats another 250m and what every they pay Cesc if they get him will be more debt. So i would look some where else to model your club on.
to hit them where it hurts, someone needs to grab a hold of Avram’s hairy balls and stick United pins in it.
The US Government will not let their prized billionaires go bust. They will just pump a few billion quid of the world’s money and that would be the end of that.
@Xyth
Barca’s system works simply because the country is setup to support clubs like Barca and Real. For it to work for us we would need the government and local council to put full support behind supporting the club and for them to put pressure on Local and National banks to lend the club Interest free loans (Which they would then write off without it being paid back).
On top of that it would then require fans to put in atleast 20mill ontop of tickets a season, anyone running to be president to put down tens of millions thats non-refundable just to run and then for these people to be able to guarantee hundreds of millions of loans from outside parties.
These things are never going to happen in the UK
Nice work Scott.
Thanks again, great links and reference points.
Now before anyone starts, I am as simple a lad as you can get, but I wont be mugged or made a fool of.
I can talk/type with anyone, I am a real happy lad. I want to learn and take all peoples points on board thats just how I think. I love Manchester United, I travel 500 odd miles sometimes bye Flybe, sometimes on the hoof( hitch hiking) because finances for me are limited.I have explained why on previous threads, why I dont follow Celtic or Rangers or Inverness Caley or Ross County.
Now being the bastard that I am lol, and a avid reader other than a talker, who havers shite without thinking through the consequences lol.
Some quotes for lads/ lasses that endorses the point, to get the thieves out, purely extracted from Scotts links with errors in my language, Zero scrolled and posted. Its not my way I like originality and humour and too the point.
In no particular order, I hope the moderator does not object.
“Normally I could’nt give a monkeys about your team, but this guy has got me seriously worried about the future of the English game. I know my team have benefited from the arrival of Abramovich, but the Glazer is a different breed.
Your club wont be his personal play thing, it will be his cash Cow. He could bleed you dry and leave you in a worse state than Leeds.
Makelele Scores a screamer.
From a Gooner- This take over shows football is more about, money than passion. Make it difficult for Mr Glazer.
Puerto rock.
The Glazer were accompanied on a tour of Old Trafford by chief executive David Gill and commercial director Andy Anson, who had been ousted and then reinstated to the United board by Malcolm Glazer.
The takeover is based on a massive level of debt- the club is no longer in control of its finances, the banks are.
“They will just milk the club all they can, hike up the ticket prices and possibly try to negotiate a new TV contract or some other drastic course of action.
United legend Sir Bobby Charlton, did not speak to the media and his support of the new US regime could prove significant.
Director of the Birmingham buisiness school, Jonathan Mitchie has questioned the viability of the pledge.
“The Glazers take over is a huge financial risk” said Michie.
Reclaim your club.
I recognise some lads dont like reading, I do, its the way to learn.
Reclaim your club, stop the beating of the chests, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
I do so enjoy a trip down memory lane. I remember the small number of eejits with their ‘United not for sale’ banners on display outside OT, as if they believed that they actually owned the club, or had some say in matters concerning it’s destiny. Deluded or what?
It was around this time that I parted with my United stock holding, having realised that it was all over bar the silly banners and tiny LUHG stickers – by now de riguer for lamp posts, traffic lights and phone boxes in the Manchester area.
I remember cringing with utter embarrassment at the way our new owners had to escape, bundled into the back of blacked out people carriers, as the rabid crowd, still chanting “United, United, not for Sale’, apparently still not understanding the simple concept of trading shares in a Plc.
Ah, nostalgia.
Perhaps most of all though, I remember the 3 premier league crowns, 2 Champions League Finals, World Club Champion status and numerous other Silverware in the period since. All alongside our Manager’s unswerving public support for his employers.
I wonder Scott, what headlines you will reminding us of in another 5 years time? the False dawn of the red knights? The upgraded lamp post stickers, now enjoying high profile on the billboards on the way into our City? The coming and going of the green and gold apparell?
Garden gnomes anyone?
scott this was a fantastic write up
how time has changed but the glazers have just got worse and fucking worse
off topic but i was just wondering what people think about berbatov ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
only messing , the glazer talk is making me angry
GHTT – don’t start the Berba topic please!!!!!!!!!!!
I am left wondering does Paul, have a right hand! lmao
Off to the pub, lmao
Memories.
Paul H – United have been successful the last 5 years despite the Glazers, not because of them. If you’re memory stretches a little further you’ll realise we haven’t done too badly the last 20 years before this bastards came in…Has your income increased by one third since they came
in to match the rise in season ticket prices? Mine hasn’t, so guess what, I’m
glad of the green and gold campaign, at least the whole world can see
we’ve got fans who care about the club…
I hate the Glazers. I hate them for the situation they have put our club in. I hate them for dividing fans that are supposed to be ‘United’. I hate them for making the football at Old Trafford in recent times nothing more than a sideshow.
Now it’s about debt. It’s about protests. It’s about worrying will Manchester United continue to challenge for trophies, or will Manchester United even exist in twenty or thirty years considering the financial death trap they have lured us into. I fucking hate it and I fucking hate them.
But this whole situation leaves me completely disillusioned. I will admit, call me a twat call me ignorant, but I will admit I try ignore it as much as possible. Although it’s absolutely impossible. United We Stand, this site, any newspaper, now the fucking BBC, it’s everywhere. I try ignore it because, although I’m wrong, I believe as a supporter my interest should go no higher than the manager. Leave the rest to the suits. But at Manchester United, we have been put in a situation where the fans need to get involved. Fair play to those who have, those who’ve got off their arse and tried to do something about it, but it’s not me. I go to OT to support the team, watch the football, enjoy myself, and I apologise, but I will not let the Glazers or my fellow supporters stop me from doing so.
I’m not intelligent enough to comprehend the extent of the mess United are in. I’m not into figures, percentages, accounts, bond documents etc, but it is clear the situation is a hell of a lot worse than just worrying. The Glazers must go, but they will need to be replaced. The Red Knights certainly weren’t the answer. If the Glazers were to leave right now, it causes more questions than answers, that’s for sure.
As for the protesters and campaigners, as much as i admire what they’re trying to do, I am not Green and Gold. I am Red, White and Black. I’ve never worn a G&G scarf, nor shall I ever. I’ve nothing against anybody who does, but it’s just me. I will never boycott Old Trafford due to the Glazers ownership. I will continue to plod along, trying to ignore the very thing that is absolutely tearing my club apart from the inside. That is a fault of mine, I don’t know if I will change, I doubt it.
It’s all just fucking horrible. The thing is, the Glazers are going nowhere. Of that I’m certain. I believe all we can do is hope.
——————
Off topic…@RedScot
Cheers for the comment on the site mate, fantastic. We’re doing a World Cup preview for Friday morning and are collecting a few lines from friends and readers, basically their hopes for the World Cup, their favourites to win, best player, one to watch etc etc…we were wondering if you would be interested in giving us literally just three or four lines about all that?
@Scott the Red
I’m asking you the same question as above mate ha
@Paul H
Just think if the world were populated only by gutless Quisling mummy’s boys like you. We’d all just sit like goons waiting to be shafted by whichever dead-eyed, money-grubbing, scum-sucking Shylock came by. A situation you, apparently, feel entirely comfortable with.
Like some unsightly reoccurrence of herpes you appear with every Glazer-related post to offer up more of your piss-weak rationalisations for the Gimps unconscionable sabotage of our great club. A common theme of your comments seems to be a sneering air of superiority about United’s historically more typical and sadly now priced-out fans. Perhaps you’d prefer it if all United’s fans were all cardigan-sporting accountant types from the leafy glades of south Manchester, who holiday in Umbria and what have you?
Never mind that. What fucks me off most about your pointless, boring, stilted, smug interjections is how – a la David Gill – you purport to be offering the voice of the sane majority.
Here’s news for you Paul – you don’t!
Unless you only ever talk to similar Quisling no-mark lawyer/accountant/golf club bore types on your occasional visits to Old Trafford you won’t have failed to notice that around 90% of the ground – after the bond issue now awakened to the full horror of the Glazer’s catastrophic ownership – don’t see it your way!
Let me put it to you simply. In any other ownership structure – fan-owned (best but impossible), Sugar Daddy owned (bad but tolerable), Red Knight style ownership (difficult but most likely alternative and could be made to work) – United would have more money to spend on the i) team ii) fans iii) wider community. That is ALL this green and gold business ultimately amounts to – the honest desire to dream of a more fiscally responsible and morally desirable character for our football club. Were the world entirely composed of passive apologists like you imagine the kind of inequity that would develop.
One final thought – what do you think someone like Bobby Charlton REALLY thinks about what’s going on with United? Answer that question honestly and then make your mind up about which side you’d like to be on.
While I was doing some research on something completely different, I found this article yesterday:-
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2004/jan/29/sport.comment1
Remember those days?
@ The Promised Land – MUST is to blame for everything that you are angry about. Blame them.
@dan, I’m extremely sorry to learn of your recurrent genital problems – do you you hold the Glazers responsible for that too? I’ve read your post several times now but you’re really not making much sense my inquislingtive friend. Try being more direct. LUHG, I get that part, but the rest of your little outburst, I’m struggling with. I’ll pay over a billion dollars for a club and then ‘sabotage’ it? That would be the behaviour of a loony.
@rai, not wishing to be flippent, but try asking for a pay rise maybe? It’s not just your ST (and apparently Dan’s STIs) that are increasing well beyond the rate of wage inflation you know. But do I see you launching a GnG style campaign outside your local petrol station, council or supermarket? No, its much easier to jump on the anti-Glazer bandwagon.
Let’s face it, you’ll all be a lot happier once you get your minds back on the football. Let the Glazers and David Gill worry about the finances. If you still want something to get really angry about, just wait and see what Uncle David and Uncle Nick have got in store for us over the next few years. Now there is something actually worth revolting over….and mark my words, they will.
Now I know my views aren’t always the most popular on this increasingly single-issue blog, but as long as I have the time and inclination, I’ll continue to provide some much needed sanity and the odd Gnome related joke as the campaign gradually winds down.
@ Paul H
You and your condescending self can just go take a jump my friend…..I’ve just about had it with your way of treating everyone like no-nothing fools.
Even Wakey tries to put a balanced argument and tries to defend the current situation, but he has toned down the level of his ‘superiority complex’ a lot since the initial days and I now even enjoy discussions with him.
But you my friend are just incorrigible….What gives you the authority to say such things with so much surety…..lets hear about your educational qualifications in the finance and economics domain, or even your work experience in handling financial matters, especially leveraged buyouts…..
At least Wakey tries to back up his arguments with facts and figures, whereas you just keep on spouting shit after shit comment belittling everyone with absolutely no logic to support your point of view except your know-it-all aura….
You talk about our success in the Glazer era, why as if we had won nothing at all in the 15 years before that and would have continued to win nothing if they hadn’t bought us over.
And I still hope for the best and United just may pull through the precarious situation and avoid all the risks and worst -case scenarios that seem so probable right now, but that would not mean that everything is hunky-dory right now……..so dont come back with your “I told you so”
Lord, How snobbish can a person get……..?
@Red Devil
I think Dan summed it up perfectly mate. Snobs usually disappear if you just ignore them.
@Red Devil & Dan
cracking posts both of them. the sucess has nothing to do with the glazers. the only good thing they have done is not interfered in SAF’s work. Dont think they have the balls to do that but still.
@AIG
Hi mate. Plus, they had no reason to interfere in his work. It would be like trying to teach Jenna Jameson how to do a porn scene.
@Costas
Hi mate.
lol. nice one. No one messes around with the boss.:D
@ Costas and AIG
Morning mates….appreciate it….
Lol @ Jenna Jameson…hahaha….the porn industry is in serious need of some fresh blood it seems ….no major superstars come out after her…
@AIG
Exactly. By the way, I bet you are excited for tomorrow. I hope you are ready to stay up late almost every night for the next month! South Africa is in the same timezone as Greece, so I am lucky in that respect. But in 2014 I will probably miss out on most of the games.
@Red Devil
That’ the sad truth. Or they could convince JJ to return to the industry. From what I’ve seen she still has what it takes.
I meant to say that yours Dan’s posts were the best things to read while waking up.
@Costas
i am excited like anything. Sure you are too. i am ready to stay up and watch the games. i will miss some games becasue they coincide with my work time. the first match from saturday is at 5 PM IST and i am working till 7 PM. however i am looking forward to the late night games at 12AM here. i do have a small television on my desk in the office, so if i am lucky and dont have to go out for meetings i may be able to catch even those matches. for the last 1 month i have been sleeping for 8-9 hours in the night as opposed to 4-5 hours during the footballing season.
@ Costas
You lucky &^%$……We’ll have to slug it out late nights for all the games man and then waking up to go to work is gonna be such a pain…..
A JJ comeback…I’m all up for it….
As for the above post…yeah, dan had also captured most of the sentiments……..I’m not for blind opposition to the Glazers….but i’ve done my research and if you’ve been following my posts, I think the way it stands its very dodgy…..we might come through it unscathed, but the damage in terms of limited transfer funds is already being done…. Even though Sir Alex supports them, its because of his Scottish roots and he doesn’t wanna pay over the odds for any player….otherwise, the market for top talent has always been inflated….where was the value when Juventus bought Buffon for something like 40 mn pounds !! 40 mn for a goalkeeper….so its not only the real madrids and Chelseas and manchester city’s inflating it now……top talent has always come at a premium, a premium which we now seem unwilling to pay…..
@AIG
Ha, so basically in the last month you have overslept in preparation for the World Cup! I want to be excited. This will be the 5th World Cup that I will follow, plus I fell in love with football during the 1994 WC, so it has a special place in my heart. On the other hand, I am more of a United than a football fan nowdays, so it’s a bit less interesting watching other teams in action. But it’s still the World Cup…
@Costas
yes mate. it was all planned. i am a die hard football fan too so i am looking forward to 11th June from a long time. I watch all the leagues and the international tournaments.me and my friends are planning to go to the screening of a lot of the late night weekend games. it will be an exciting one month
@Red Devil
I agree that we already feeling the effects of the Glazer situation in our transfer activity. The market is inflated. But one could say that it was inflated back in 2001 when Zidane moved to Real and we brought in Ruud and Seba. It’s not about spending money just for the sake of it. I feel that the squad hasn’t been renewed in the rhythm it has in the past. I said it recenlty that maybe we are taking a risk with someone like Carrick or Berbatov, hoping that they will turn things around. Would we have done that in the past? And I am all for bringing up youngsters from the academy, but it’s not the only youth that we’ve utilised. We’ve also gone out and tried to buy the most promising youngsters outside OT.
@AIG
Watching games together is the best way to go about it sometimes. We will probably do that over here for the Greece games. Plenty of kebab and pizza to go around. D
I noticed that you have something like a 8-9 hour difference with Brazil? So in 2014, you will have a similar problem with European fans.
@Costas
yeah. it is great fun. lots of cold drinks and snacks
The problem for 2014 world cup is that the games will be in early morning at 5 or 6 AM here. need to find some solution to watch the games
I think its really bad that everybody was against Sky taking over Utd even tho they would have paid for us and wouldnt have plunged us into debt but they let the Glazers walk in and saddle us with a crippling debt and that is perfectly fine!! its disgusting!! Now I’m aware that the Sky deal was blocked because of monopolys and all that business but still why block a company that would have clearly been able to fund a move for Utd and not put any debt on the club, yet allow a ‘so called’ business man to take over and destroy the financial dominance which Utd had, by borrowing more money than small countrys enjoy, and wrecking a perfectly good business to purchase us!!
The goverment really need to create a law to forbid this, I for one believe this is the road that us fans need to take, forget demo’s in and outside OT, they arent working, we need to fucking demo outside No.10 and let the goverment see the dismay!!
The Promised Land – Absolutely blinding post fella. My thoughts EXACTLY.
@ Costas AIG Red Devil
Leave my girl Jenna out of this lads lol.
@Dan
“Unless you only ever talk to similar Quisling no-mark lawyer/accountant/golf club bore types on your occasional visits to Old Trafford you won’t have failed to notice that around 90% of the ground – after the bond issue now awakened to the full horror of the Glazer’s catastrophic ownership – don’t see it your way!”
The problem is Gill is right when he says its a Vocal Minority who actually have any idea what they are protetesting. Most wear their Scarfs because its in the In thing and at best because they read a headline that made things sound awful. Even with the bond issue most are focusing on the senstationlist headlines about it such as the Old Trafford sale rather than reading the Bond document and realising where this was mentioned and realise its not the “Glazers will Sell OT” that MUST are pushing but a risk assesment laying out the worst case, as worst case that even if it isn’t in black and white is present for EVERY club that owns their ground. And the bond document itself is only a worst case situation, you don’t set up the financial situation so that if things get a little worse you have no room to manoure as that’sjust idiotic. You make sure that you can adjust your plans when needed so while there is the ability for them to take x amount out of the club (About 160mill based on a normal years profit) it doesn’t mean they will. Infact as we have seen rather than take the 70mill they could take immediately they passed on it at this time. So MUST can’t and shouldn’t be telling people that these are facts, its opinions (and all their previous facts relating to what they will take out have proven to have been complete and utterly wrong).
“In any other ownership structure – fan-owned (best but impossible), Sugar Daddy owned (bad but tolerable), Red Knight style ownership (difficult but most likely alternative and could be made to work) – United would have more money to spend on the i) team ii) fans iii) wider community”
You know most of what you typed there is bullshit right?
Lets start with the Red Knight Style ownership. How are do you expect a group of upto 40 people where the richest of these people has a worth of £220mill and most of whom are being asked for a stake thats either well over 50% of their worth or even more than their worth to have more money to spend on the club? Now the group themselves are capable fo raising £700mill to buy the club and will have to keep the bonds and the interest payments that go with them. So they each have to find a spare £20mill and based on their worths will require a return, especially as most are going to have to borrow the money in some way. They then need a further £300mill to reach what they believe is the value of the club, they wanted the fans to raise over £200mill of that and in return they would have given a golden share to MUST (A share worth around 25% that is only activated in certain situations, in this case when the club was sold on. At all other times the holder has NO say) with the rest being made up with further loans.
So they would have still been paying the £45mill each year, then the payments to each of them to cover the costs they incured to get their 20mill stake and then pay a further loan of around 100mill. Ofc this loan would almost certainly be higher as the fans have NO WAY to raise £200mill as that’s £1250 from each of the MUST members and its one thing to signup to something Free its another to be able to find a spare £1250. The Red Knights in 2017 would have then had to put enough money away to pay off the Bonds, unless ofc they were just going to refinance them again which leads you to wonder “How are they better”. There seems to be no way that they could increase the available money to spend, if anything they would reduce it.
With the other two sure there could be more money available BUT at what cost. I have already mentioned on this thread what it requires in the form of borrowing money to fund a top fan owned club. And even then as mentioned by others they rack up massive debts to remain competitive and for the elected person in charge to fulfil the promises they used to buy the fans votes. And we wouldn’t be bailed out by the government and council like in other countries and pressure wouldn’t be put on Banks to give us free money.
And with a Sugar Daddy debts still being racked up, in the shortterm its debt that can be ignored as they use the club as a play thing but what happens later when the business is so far in debt and the business plan so screwed up that if that person ever cuts their ties they are screwed. Look at Chelsea, Roman now has 700mill worth of preferential shares that pay out a guaranteed dividend no matter the profit (profit which they don’t have any of, although he does seem to be trying to make it a more viable business now) BUT he is also owed over 700mill for the loan he has given them. The same thing happens at Villa but with smaller figures
@Red Devil
Pauls H’s comment are usually great but its very easy to get wound up and condenscending with people talking about these issues because they actually have NO idea about the situation. They are just regurgitating what MUST tells them and not questioning their interpritations.
Then when the likes of myself, Paul H, Dave Mack and a few others try and bring some balance to MUST’s figures and claims and we just get attacked and insulted and even told we are on the Glazers payroll (You even have done this to me)
And you are querying Paul H’s right to comment by asking for his ‘background’ but why does that matter for people considered to be in the ‘pro glazer’ camp but not for the ‘Anti Glazer’ camp. Anti Glazer people can spout whatever they like and are then used by others as people talking sense. Look at Rai’s comment here where he says “United have been successful the last 5 years despite the Glazers” what basis has he got for saying this? He has no real basis for it but its accepted as being ok. If I raise anything I have people like redscot dismissing anything unless I can post private information from the Glazers (Which even if I was a Glazer employee I wouldn’t have access to) to back it up, this is despite being able to provide evidence to back claims up
“where was the value when Juventus bought Buffon for something like 40 mn pounds !! 40 mn for a goalkeeper”
I would say Juve got plenty of value out of Buffons fee. You wouldn’t pay £40mill now for him but back then it was a smart move. There are some players you break the bank on for example Rooney as they may not be worth the fee right then but they are future superstars. I still think for that kind of player SAF would break the bank again. We are just going through a patch though where its not current superstars or absolute future superstars that are at superstar fees but fairly ordinary players. Chelsea do seem to be acting more like a business and with UEFA laws and the EPL squad laws hopefully things will settle down a bit.
I also don’t agree they have hindered transfers. There is an awful lot of cash on the clubs accounts, where as there was rarely that much in the PLC’s accounts which actually will make it easier to buy players and do so a bit cheaper as we could pay upfront rather than the standard conditional and installment based payments that happen in Football. Yes a chunk of that’s Ronaldos money but even taking that into account we have more than we used to in the bank.
Also someone raised the issue that Fergie and the issue with John Magnier and JP McManus. Their 99 questions they put to United as part of their war againstt Fergie were about transfer dealings and specifically Agent fees. A club will generally pay an Agent a fee of 10% of the transfer fee but under the PLC this wasn’t happening. We paid £2.3mill to buy Howard and then paid the Agent 700k which is 30% of the fee. This was happening on almost every transfer and it explained why we used to be near the top in agent fees paid each, under the Glazers these fees have fallen so in the rankings we are much lower than we were. Rooney, Rio and Berba were all around the same level but while under the Glazers the Agent fee would have been around 3million compared to the 9mill each for Rio and Rooney. That soon starts to add up.
So with more cash in the club than before and less being spent on agents we are in better situation for buying than before the Glazers. And for all the critism they have got for purchases its not like we haven’t been buying players, a lot of money over the 5 years has been spent on players (Berba, Nani, Anderson, Hargreaves, Carrick, Valencia alone is over 110mill alone and there are other players to add into that too) And while we have sold players also apart from Ronaldo we haven’t received massive fees so spending hasn’t fallen and I’m not sure even net spend has
@Gee
And you know that Sky had the cash available to purchase the club how? I don’t have the full information on the offer but I doubt they were using a spare 600mill they had to buy the club. Debt is always involved somewhere along the line
Just to add. According to Palermo’s president we have put a bid in for Simon Kjaer. So have our fucking neighbours.
@The Promised land. Thanks for comments, yes I will, do I will work on that tonight.
And as I have said often! to the point of being a Arse licker, your site is fantastic and as me in stitches with laughter.
King Eric – Your source?
@wakey
If it wasn’t for your posts I wouldn’t understand a single thing. Keep em coming mate.
I don’t just read yours and take them as Gospel I try to keep an open mind but I must say yours make the most sense, don’t always remember but genrally enjoy reading your posts.
Regarding being attacked Take no notice you’re allowed to give your 2 peneth like everybody else on here but certain people Do get far too arsey.
@King Eric
Who is Simon Kjaer I’m not familier with him. Should presume he’s good if SAF Is Interested. He’ll come to Utd so long as Money isn’t his sole purpose in life. Fu**in Shitty.
@willierednut
http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2010/06/10/1968833/manchester-united-manchester-city-go-to-war-as-palermo
With the latest from Vidic’s agent saying that he may leave after the WC (Apparently Vidic will decided after the WC) it would make sense
So Vidic decides he wants to leave and we just accept it then? Don’t know what his agent is smoking, but Vidic is under contract until 2012.
So, his agent says a few months ago, he wasn’t going anywhere, now he’s back – tracking. These agents, should be seen and not heard, as me old granny used to say.
And what happend with the Dodo transfer? thats gone very quiet.
@james21
Kjaer is a 21 Year old Danish International CB who plays for Palermo. I have only seen him in glimpses as I don’t get to watch much Italian football but he looks good. We have been being linked with him for the last 18months or so and those who have seen him more seem to think he is a perfect Rio replacement.
There are still rumours that a deal for Dodo has already been done so if with Evans, Smalling, Dodo and Kjaer it would give a good core of CB’s for when Rio retires and when Vidic inevitably does leave (if he doesn’t go this season he will in future imho)
“I don’t just read yours and take them as Gospel I try to keep an open mind”
Exactly what everyone should do. If everyone did that then this whole discussion would be so much better, we would still have people on one side or the other as there are arguments that can be made for both but Anti Glazer side would be less extreame and we could all have a good debate on it
@Costas
Its possible the agent is just trying to get a better deal on a new contract. However this Summer would be when he can force a transfer if he wishes. If we wait till 2012 he leaves for nothing, Next season he could just buy his contract out I believe and both of these things aren’t great otherwise we have to basically fund his replacement from other money rather than using some or all his transfer fee
“And what happend with the Dodo transfer? thats gone very quiet.”
Rumours are still that its a done deal, its just a case of when we bring him over simerlar to the situation we had with the Twins
An appeal to everyone to go through this one carefully…for a MORE BALANCED view as some people like to put it…..
@ Wakey
1) So only you guys can get wound up and call other people names and we cant (this is for your accusations) Doesn’t feel so nice when someone attacks you for sayig what you believe in….Besides Paul H can defend himself I think…you dont need to stand up for him.
2) As for qualifications and experience, they are relevant and important because otherwise it just a case of one ignorant’s word versus another ignorant’s word……(although you can call it a balanced argument if you like)
3) 9 mn in agents fees for Rooney and Rio…wow …whats your basis for those figures…you’d have us believe that David Gill and the entire staff, most of which were retained by the way were all fools of the highest order to pay those kind of sums on agent fees
4) While comparing the glazers costs vs Plc costs, you conveniently ignored the Interest costs of 50 mn plus as well as the huge swap losses and hedging losses as well as fees of investment banks on those, as well as the bond issue costs which run into millions….like your figures above..they too also add up over a period of time …dont they?
5) The Glazers are entited to dividends, WHAT, so they can take both interest and dividend out of the club….wow you have got your concept of capital structure seriously mixed up……..debt is substitute for the equity and vice versa….so if your debt costs go up, your equity costs must go down or vice versa…..if you are paying both at the same levels after replacing debt with equity in the capital structure, you’re not a very smart guy by any stretch of financial expertise
Besides the Glazers are conveniently taking money out of the club in the form of management fees, low interest loans and what not….they’re just not calling it dividend…
6) Also…in a plc dividends are not mandatory, they can be delayed in case of hard times or even done away with entirely as long as there is capital appreciation…..but in case of interest it has to be paid irrespective of whether you make profits or not and there are other transaction costs involved in it such as bond trustees, trusteeship fees, registrars fees every year (which also get conveniently ignored in your analysis maybe because you do not know about those?) What about if United dont do too well on the pitch for the next few years…what if we dont qualify for the champions league…..thats straight 50 mn off the books…..we will go into MASSIVE losses with no funds available for any capex?
But despite that the INTEREST WILL STILL HAVE TO BE PAID…..not mandatory in a plc or a fan-owned structure…….
7) If we go through a sustained period of failure on the pitch say 3-4 years, the club will be on the verge of bankruptcy……..how do you account for the increased risks in an over-leveraged business……..Well I guess not many of you have thought of that because you have not been involved and managing a leveraged buyout, have you?
I mean, would you rather have bought Berbatov( or for that matter Valencia) for 50 mn pounds, because the depreciation written down over 5 years would have bought more tax relief?
I mean you are making tax-relief sound like manna from heaven…..the cash outflow is already incurred at the beggining to get any sort of tax-relief, and the time value of the later savings from the relief only deteriorates into the future…..would you rather have 50 mn now or 50 mn five years from hence!?
I dont have any personal issues with anyone on here, I neither support the glazers nor antagonize them…I am just here to give my take based on my professional expertise…….. I am not suggesting that Glazers are all bad and Lord willing all might turn out well, but the risks they have placed on the club with the over-leveraged model and the current state of affairs of their own finances….i am not convinced….Remember the Glazers, if they have to cut their losses and sell, they will prefer to sell United and not the Tampa bay bucs…..they do have to live their remaining lives in america now dont they?
@Wakey
Or we could extend his contract for a couple of years. It’s not certain that he has 3-4 great seasons left in him, but he will be immense the next two, so he is a player we can’t afford to lose imo. I am not a fan of delaying contract negotiations with him and Rooney until the WC is over.
An addendum to point 6 above….. The capital appreciation in United has been fantastic, they bought it for just 750 odd million and they are getting offers to sell it for about 1 bn, 1.2 bn, 1.5 bn if reports are to be belived…..In fact they’re own sources say they put down a bid of 1.5 bn from Arab Investors…..thats quite a handsome return isn’t it….
the equity they put in around 125 mn, ( initially roughly assuming PIKs at 100 and bank debt at 550 mn) if they accept 1.2 bn, now and leave the club as it is with the bonds being Uniteds liability, they can repay the PIK’s at 225 mn and their rate of return on equity would be 67% compounded annually (approx…and that is after excluding the interim cash flows in tthe form of fees, loans etc which they have taken out of the club in terms of time value)
@wakey
Thanx mate. I googled him and appears that alot of teams are monitoring him. Real Madrid are interested but normally they let Utd nurture them make them world class then relieve us of their services, oh the life of a feeder club.
Thanks for defending my honour Wakey, while I’ve been out all day reinforcing my new reputation by terrorising innocent swimmers on jet skis. Ok, I didn’t do that really, but I did terrorise my daughter when we fell off attempting an ill-advised manouvre about 1/2 a mile off shore. I doubt she’ll ever want to go into the sea again. Maybe it was karma for my last post last night, which apparently didn’t go down too well with some people. Who knows? Maybe I should be a little more restrained in future….
Anyway, I digress. Saw a local here in Barbados wearing a United shirt, so naturally I wanted to compliment him on his excellent choice. When I got closer, I noticed a green and gold (and black) hat. I thought, wow, the campaign has gone global. Maybe it’s got legs after all. The chap then told me he knew nothing about the cause, but he was from Jamaica. Didn’t have a clue about our owners either, just enjoyed following the team. Was he a glory hunter, or was he just enjoying United in a non-political, just-about-the-footy way? I think the latter and maybe we could all learn a thing or two from him.
Red Devil, you suggested that I am light on facts in posts, but I honestly don’t feel need to add any more to the numbers put forward by Wakey, on a regular basis in an attempt to bring people up to speed. Rest assured that I study and digest the available numbers and independent analysis enough to know that things, whilst not perfect, are a long way from the disaster and doom that others put forward (usually regurgitated by sensationalist media and people with an anti-Glazer agenda)
I’d like nothing more than for us all to take a leaf out of my Jamaican friend’s book and get back to focussing purely on the football. Can’t see it happening any time soon though.
@ Paul H
No disrespect intended…..but are you suggesting that we just ignore the problem and hope it passes us by….
I’d like nothing more mate than for all this to be sorted so we can focus on United winning football matches…But by burying your head in the sand and hoping the sandstorm doesn’t hit you, not a very smart thing to do now is it…?
And I dont see neither you, nor Wakey coming up with any counter-logic to the points above…If this is to be a healthy discussion, you must also learn to respect the opinion of others and accept the logic presented above if you cannot refute it.
Did everyone get that Paul H is in Barbados? Yes that’s right – he’s in BARBADOS. Just in case anyone had missed it.
Don’t thank me Paul, I just thought I’d help clarify this fact to the uneducated, “deluded…eejits” you refer to. Although why you feel the need to tell the world this fact quite so much I have yet to fathom.
And thanks in advance for the career advice Pauly – despite the country still being in the tail end of a recession, despite the debts, despite the cuts, despite the redundancies I’m off today to “ask for a payrise”! I can’t believe it’s something that myself and Rai hadn’t thought about sooner!
Anyway I’m sounding as a bitter as… eeerrr… a bitter and am worried if I don’t shake it off I’ll be made to sit in the blue corner at work – which is not pleasant.
Enjoy Barbados Paul H – I look forward to viewing your holiday snaps on your return
I have to admit I think Paul H makes good points but have to say that last post by Charltons Comb Over was comedy gold.
@ King Eric
Hi mate….good morning….
Which post of Paul H are you referring to ….which point do you think is good ?
I’m all for discussion, but both sides must accept the logic of the other side mate and must modify their stance depending on the superior logic…..
@Red Devil
Hi mate. Isn’t it funny how some people want us to focus on football instead of the owners, yet they only come at ROM when a Glazer thread is put up?
@ Costas
lmao…..hahahahahahahahaha
You had me in stitches at that one my friend……good lord…..
Wishy you a Happy World Cup !!
and a successful one (in case you are long on betting!)
@Red Devil
Thanks! Likewise. I don’t bet though. I tried it once for some Uefa cup games and lost all 4 of them. Betting on Liverpool only to see them lose to Celtic at Anfield can discourage you from betting ever again!
King Eric’s no mug, he stays on good terms with both sides of the argument lol.
Costas – I don’t know about Paul H, but i remember seeing Wakey’s posts on other subjects, at the start of the season. I do see your point though, it’s like the Berba debate, were people seem to come out of the woodwork.
@Red Devil
You do realise some of us have lives right? If we don’t respond to something immediately it doesn’t mean we can’t respond to points just we haven’t got round to responding yet.
As you will know while it takes a minute to throw a throw away couple of line comments that many of the anti glazers people resort to, posting a thoughtout detailed reply takes a fair bit longer.
When I get a spare 30 mins or so when I can take your points on board fully and respond I will do so.
@Charlton’s Comb-over
Its not as daft as it sounds to ask for a payrise. Many business owners are using the economy as a way to scare their employees and to push them into working more hours without extra pay and to not even get a rise in line with inflation.
All this while they are increasing the prices they charge for their products/services (Admittedly some of the rise is due to suppliers upping prices)
Its obviously not the case for all business’s, some are struggling but don’t just take it as a given.
@Costas
Don’t you start with that. Paul H posts on plenty of football related posts and doesn’t deserve being accused of this. Just as I don’t when I keep getting told I don’t post on other subjects when I do (I will give you that responding to these does reduce the time I have to post on Football matters mind you)
“Or we could extend his contract for a couple of years”
He however has to want to extend his contract, of it seems he doesn’t then United have to cash in.
From the way Vidic’s agent was talking It sounds like United tried to discuss a new contract but he asked to be given the world cup and a couple weeks after it to think about what he wants. I do suspect its a negotiating tactic mind you as its a major change in tone
willirednut – Too right fella!!!
Red Devil – I aren’t taking any sides just saying I actually like Paul’s style of post, rather amusing if not a touch condescending. I agree with the fact he says the g and g is becoming stale and most people sporting it don’t know its meaning. Also the fact we are becoming a laughing stock over our “Norwich scarves”.
Yeah and likewise there are a few people who only come when its a Glazer thread to lay the boot in. Isaidso being one of them although he did used to post more often.
@willierednut
People respond on issue that draw them in and they have fairly strong opinions on. You don’t post on something that you don’t really have an opinion of either way. Which is why some people will post on certain subjects more than others
And personally if I’m going to take time be it 1 minute or 30minutes to put a post together then it has to be something that adds to the discussion. I’m not going to post something if 20 people before me have posted the same thing before me, its a waste of my time, a waste of those reading it and when it comes to comments is close to spammy. The way things are on the Glazer issue I can add a lot to the discussion
@willirednut
Yeah, it wasn’t directed at Wakey in any way. I have seen him in plenty of non Glazer topics.
@Wakey
It’s not an accusation. It’s a response to a comment and an observation I’ve made from my time on this blog. Anyone is free to come here whenever they want. Just don’t say that you would like to see us talk about football more often when you are usually absent when we do. (You not as in you personally).
On the Vidic subject, my belief is that you can keep almost any player happy. I’ve followed United for 15 years and I find it hard to believe that Nemanja Vidic is our first foreigner who’s wife has trouble living in Manchester. And I haven’t seen any player leave us for that reason. The problem is that by stalling these talks until the World Cup is over(and with the additional concern of other big clubs coming after him), Vidic will hope to get the best deal possible from us. That’s why I believe that we should have held form talks with them long before the World Cup approached.
*firm talks*
@Costas
Alot of players though don’t like discussing contracts mid season and the clubs are often wary as well so as not to cause on field disruption. If its a fairly simple negotiation it gets sorted during the season (So people like Giggs, Neville, Scholes who will pretty much sign anything in front of them or people like Nani where United hold pretty much all the cards) but when the player holds a lot of the cards and his agent is hence going to fight for the best deal possible I don’t think its in anyone’s interest to distract them with contract negotiations.
And then you get a major tournament year and there isn’t enough time to get things sorted before they start focusing on that.
Just look at Chelsea, they were in the middle of discussing deals with a number of their players but terminated them due to the run in. This has seen them left with little choice but to wait till after the World Cup or as we have seen with Ballack and Cole to cut them loose without discussing it further
@Wakey
I realise that, but why not discuss things over January or February when Vidic was out of action anyway? There’s always time in my opinion. In the examples that I mentioned above(Ferdinand, Beckham and Giggs), the negotiations took place all throughout the season.
Charlton’s-comb-over, thanks v much for blowing my cover. I was trying to be discrete. Now the Gnomes will be coming for me. It’s only a small island y’know.
Seriously, sometimes a poster’s location is relevant to the post. The other night for example, when I was searching for the docu-drama-romantic-comedy made by Panorama. I might have got ‘try BBC 1 you numpty’. The conversation with the dude with the green and gold hat on wouldn’t have come across the same if you thought I was in Sale. The post on my attempts to explain to some guys in our New York office about the hatred of their countrymen (not all of them) amongst some United supporters and bizarrely their (our) own country, needed to be placed in setting in order to land the message.
I do enjoy following Scott’s blog from wherever I am and the views of his regular contributors and accolytes. Sometimes people put thought provoking stuff on here, sometimes it’s useful info that perhaps you might not otherwise have found out about. Sometimes people type utter shite. Occasionally you come across some deeply unpleasant bigotry, or worse. Sometimes you have to scroll though the sycophants (you know who you are) before you get to any real debate. But it’s usually there. It’s great and you’ll struggle to find it elsewhere in the web. Try disagreeing or criticising Phil McNulty on his blog and see what happens!
Like several posters no doubt, I travel often and 99% of the time the location has no bearing on the post. I’ve made contributions from some interesting places and other times, less so. The beauty of carrying an iPhone means ROM can also provide a break from boredom in long, meetings, train journeys, flight delays, kids parties etc etc
In fact sometimes it could be counter productive to give away. Such as the time I spotted Bryan Glazer, walking unescorted in my local town centre. Imagine what some slightly unstable (not that there are any on here) or unhinged blog reader could have done with that. Doesn’t bear thinking about. Similarly, but for different reasons, it’s probably not fair of me to give the game up next time SAF is sat a few seats up from me on the 1535 Virgin service out of Euston.
In the interests of balance, Next time I’m holed up in a Premier Inn in some depressing part of England, I’ll make a point of including it in the post.
Right, must dash, because I need to make breakfast and there’s an angry gnome wading across the pool towards me in this unnamed, former British colony, secret location. Looks like means business!
Looking forward to seeing Mexico’s no.14 in action later too…
Cheers for now.
@ King Eric
Cheers mate…..I know your stance, you usually try to see both sides of the argument and thats fair enough. Even for me, as a professional I have a duty to look at all the sides, the merits, the demerits, the risks and only then take a decision, thats what i have been trained to do….I would love the chance to work on the corporate finance team of the club at some point in the future…am just searching on where to post my resume!
The major exception I have with some of the above posts is the unusually condescending and snobbish nature of the comments without being backed up by relevant expertise or experience, although I must agree they are funny in a quirky sort of way…..but i think people can be funny without being curt…
@ Wakey
I do understand that you and others do have a life…..So do I, which is why I had to be away from the blog for a few weeks in between……and you are also right in that we all have our areas of expertise or interest where we feel we can add something relevant to the discussion. I do await your comments and I look forward to improving your understanding of the situation so that we can find more common ground and the situation can evolve…..
@Red Devil
Been snowed under with work and all the football to watch so haven’t had time to go through all your points yet. Will try and get through them one by one.
Anyway on the Agent Fees. The 30% fees were included in all the shareholders finacial records. This led McManus and Magnier to raise concerns about it in the AGM and included it in their infamous 99 questions letter to the board where they listed around 13 transfers (in and out) where united paid agents a fee equal to 30% of the transfer fee which included Rio, Rooney, Howard, Veron, Stam,Bellion, Kleberson, Carroll, Ronaldo, Blanc, Taibi, Forlan & Greening. They hinted but didn’t specify that there were others that raised concern too about the size of agent fee.
Another thing they complained about was Rio being on full pay while serving his 6 month ban.
The club refused to answer the 99 questions but did say the fees were fair and were required to push the transfers through during difficult negotiations. M & M only really brought it up due to their war with Fergie, infact they focused largely on transfers where Fergies sons agency was involved and had ignored the fees for many years.
I suspect the higher fees were somewhat unavoidable due to the PLC rather than it being poor management. Everyone knew our targets as soon as we made an approach due to the nature of a PLC so the extra fees no doubt were to help push the transfers through quickly before another team could step in as we were starting to see Chelsea do in the last couple of years of the plc.
It was however a massive amount of out of the ordinary spending that for Rooney, Rio, Veron and Ronaldo alone equals an extra 20mill than normal so that is a benifit of the glazers over the plc