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The Press On Glazers In 2005

Fans react to takeover – May 12th 2005

Glazer takes control of United – May 13th 2005

What will be the Glazer effect – May 13th 2005

Glazer gets 98% of United shares – June 28th 2005

Q&A: What next in Glazer takeover – June 28th 2005

Glazers escape after fan protests – June 30th 2005

Glazer makes promise to Ferguson – July 1st 2005

Fans not won over by Glazers’ vow – July 1st 2005

Gloom remains as Glazer speaks out – July 2nd 2005

Glazer sums ‘fail to add up’ – July 8th 2005

Fans’ Glazer protest ‘peaceful’ – Augusth 10th 2005

Glazers play down European defeat – December 8th 2005



About Scott

Scott is the editor of Red Matters - 50 Years of Supporting Manchester United and an author of Play Like Fergie's Boys and Not Nineteen Forever. He writes for ESPN, The Metro and Bleacher Report. Follow @R_o_M on Twitter.

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78 Comments

  1. Wakey says:

    “And what happend with the Dodo transfer? thats gone very quiet.”

    Rumours are still that its a done deal, its just a case of when we bring him over simerlar to the situation we had with the Twins

  2. Red Devil says:

    An appeal to everyone to go through this one carefully…for a MORE BALANCED view as some people like to put it…..

    @ Wakey

    1) So only you guys can get wound up and call other people names and we cant (this is for your accusations) Doesn’t feel so nice when someone attacks you for sayig what you believe in….Besides Paul H can defend himself I think…you dont need to stand up for him.

    2) As for qualifications and experience, they are relevant and important because otherwise it just a case of one ignorant’s word versus another ignorant’s word……(although you can call it a balanced argument if you like)

    3) 9 mn in agents fees for Rooney and Rio…wow …whats your basis for those figures…you’d have us believe that David Gill and the entire staff, most of which were retained by the way were all fools of the highest order to pay those kind of sums on agent fees

    4) While comparing the glazers costs vs Plc costs, you conveniently ignored the Interest costs of 50 mn plus as well as the huge swap losses and hedging losses as well as fees of investment banks on those, as well as the bond issue costs which run into millions….like your figures above..they too also add up over a period of time …dont they?

    5) The Glazers are entited to dividends, WHAT, so they can take both interest and dividend out of the club….wow you have got your concept of capital structure seriously mixed up……..debt is substitute for the equity and vice versa….so if your debt costs go up, your equity costs must go down or vice versa…..if you are paying both at the same levels after replacing debt with equity in the capital structure, you’re not a very smart guy by any stretch of financial expertise

    Besides the Glazers are conveniently taking money out of the club in the form of management fees, low interest loans and what not….they’re just not calling it dividend…

    6) Also…in a plc dividends are not mandatory, they can be delayed in case of hard times or even done away with entirely as long as there is capital appreciation…..but in case of interest it has to be paid irrespective of whether you make profits or not and there are other transaction costs involved in it such as bond trustees, trusteeship fees, registrars fees every year (which also get conveniently ignored in your analysis maybe because you do not know about those?) What about if United dont do too well on the pitch for the next few years…what if we dont qualify for the champions league…..thats straight 50 mn off the books…..we will go into MASSIVE losses with no funds available for any capex?
    But despite that the INTEREST WILL STILL HAVE TO BE PAID…..not mandatory in a plc or a fan-owned structure…….

    7) If we go through a sustained period of failure on the pitch say 3-4 years, the club will be on the verge of bankruptcy……..how do you account for the increased risks in an over-leveraged business……..Well I guess not many of you have thought of that because you have not been involved and managing a leveraged buyout, have you?

    8) And Tax shield is just a relief, non-cash items are just a temporary source of cash conservation……of which the cash has already been paid as a down payment….
    I mean, would you rather have bought Berbatov( or for that matter Valencia) for 50 mn pounds, because the depreciation written down over 5 years would have bought more tax relief?
    I mean you are making tax-relief sound like manna from heaven…..the cash outflow is already incurred at the beggining to get any sort of tax-relief, and the time value of the later savings from the relief only deteriorates into the future…..would you rather have 50 mn now or 50 mn five years from hence!?

    I dont have any personal issues with anyone on here, I neither support the glazers nor antagonize them…I am just here to give my take based on my professional expertise…….. I am not suggesting that Glazers are all bad and Lord willing all might turn out well, but the risks they have placed on the club with the over-leveraged model and the current state of affairs of their own finances….i am not convinced….Remember the Glazers, if they have to cut their losses and sell, they will prefer to sell United and not the Tampa bay bucs…..they do have to live their remaining lives in america now dont they?

  3. Costas says:

    @Wakey

    Or we could extend his contract for a couple of years. It’s not certain that he has 3-4 great seasons left in him, but he will be immense the next two, so he is a player we can’t afford to lose imo. I am not a fan of delaying contract negotiations with him and Rooney until the WC is over.

  4. Red Devil says:

    An addendum to point 6 above….. The capital appreciation in United has been fantastic, they bought it for just 750 odd million and they are getting offers to sell it for about 1 bn, 1.2 bn, 1.5 bn if reports are to be belived…..In fact they’re own sources say they put down a bid of 1.5 bn from Arab Investors…..thats quite a handsome return isn’t it….

    the equity they put in around 125 mn, ( initially roughly assuming PIKs at 100 and bank debt at 550 mn) if they accept 1.2 bn, now and leave the club as it is with the bonds being Uniteds liability, they can repay the PIK’s at 225 mn and their rate of return on equity would be 67% compounded annually (approx…and that is after excluding the interim cash flows in tthe form of fees, loans etc which they have taken out of the club in terms of time value)

  5. james21 says:

    @wakey
    Thanx mate. I googled him and appears that alot of teams are monitoring him. Real Madrid are interested but normally they let Utd nurture them make them world class then relieve us of their services, oh the life of a feeder club.

  6. Paul H says:

    Thanks for defending my honour Wakey, while I’ve been out all day reinforcing my new reputation by terrorising innocent swimmers on jet skis. Ok, I didn’t do that really, but I did terrorise my daughter when we fell off attempting an ill-advised manouvre about 1/2 a mile off shore. I doubt she’ll ever want to go into the sea again. Maybe it was karma for my last post last night, which apparently didn’t go down too well with some people. Who knows? Maybe I should be a little more restrained in future….

    Anyway, I digress. Saw a local here in Barbados wearing a United shirt, so naturally I wanted to compliment him on his excellent choice. When I got closer, I noticed a green and gold (and black) hat. I thought, wow, the campaign has gone global. Maybe it’s got legs after all. The chap then told me he knew nothing about the cause, but he was from Jamaica. Didn’t have a clue about our owners either, just enjoyed following the team. Was he a glory hunter, or was he just enjoying United in a non-political, just-about-the-footy way? I think the latter and maybe we could all learn a thing or two from him.

    Red Devil, you suggested that I am light on facts in posts, but I honestly don’t feel need to add any more to the numbers put forward by Wakey, on a regular basis in an attempt to bring people up to speed. Rest assured that I study and digest the available numbers and independent analysis enough to know that things, whilst not perfect, are a long way from the disaster and doom that others put forward (usually regurgitated by sensationalist media and people with an anti-Glazer agenda)

    I’d like nothing more than for us all to take a leaf out of my Jamaican friend’s book and get back to focussing purely on the football. Can’t see it happening any time soon though.

  7. Red Devil says:

    @ Paul H

    No disrespect intended…..but are you suggesting that we just ignore the problem and hope it passes us by….

    I’d like nothing more mate than for all this to be sorted so we can focus on United winning football matches…But by burying your head in the sand and hoping the sandstorm doesn’t hit you, not a very smart thing to do now is it…?

    And I dont see neither you, nor Wakey coming up with any counter-logic to the points above…If this is to be a healthy discussion, you must also learn to respect the opinion of others and accept the logic presented above if you cannot refute it.

  8. Charlton's Comb-over says:

    Did everyone get that Paul H is in Barbados? Yes that’s right – he’s in BARBADOS. Just in case anyone had missed it.

    Don’t thank me Paul, I just thought I’d help clarify this fact to the uneducated, “deluded…eejits” you refer to. Although why you feel the need to tell the world this fact quite so much I have yet to fathom.

    And thanks in advance for the career advice Pauly – despite the country still being in the tail end of a recession, despite the debts, despite the cuts, despite the redundancies I’m off today to “ask for a payrise”! I can’t believe it’s something that myself and Rai hadn’t thought about sooner!

    Anyway I’m sounding as a bitter as… eeerrr… a bitter and am worried if I don’t shake it off I’ll be made to sit in the blue corner at work – which is not pleasant.

    Enjoy Barbados Paul H – I look forward to viewing your holiday snaps on your return ;-)

  9. King Eric says:

    I have to admit I think Paul H makes good points but have to say that last post by Charltons Comb Over was comedy gold.

  10. Red Devil says:

    @ King Eric

    Hi mate….good morning….
    Which post of Paul H are you referring to ….which point do you think is good ?

    I’m all for discussion, but both sides must accept the logic of the other side mate and must modify their stance depending on the superior logic…..

  11. Costas says:

    @Red Devil

    Hi mate. Isn’t it funny how some people want us to focus on football instead of the owners, yet they only come at ROM when a Glazer thread is put up? :D

  12. Red Devil says:

    @ Costas

    lmao…..hahahahahahahahaha

    You had me in stitches at that one my friend……good lord…..

    Wishy you a Happy World Cup !! :D
    and a successful one (in case you are long on betting!)

  13. Costas says:

    @Red Devil

    Thanks! Likewise. I don’t bet though. I tried it once for some Uefa cup games and lost all 4 of them. Betting on Liverpool only to see them lose to Celtic at Anfield can discourage you from betting ever again!

  14. willierednut says:

    King Eric’s no mug, he stays on good terms with both sides of the argument lol.

  15. willierednut says:

    Costas – I don’t know about Paul H, but i remember seeing Wakey’s posts on other subjects, at the start of the season. I do see your point though, it’s like the Berba debate, were people seem to come out of the woodwork.

  16. Wakey says:

    @Red Devil

    You do realise some of us have lives right? If we don’t respond to something immediately it doesn’t mean we can’t respond to points just we haven’t got round to responding yet.

    As you will know while it takes a minute to throw a throw away couple of line comments that many of the anti glazers people resort to, posting a thoughtout detailed reply takes a fair bit longer.

    When I get a spare 30 mins or so when I can take your points on board fully and respond I will do so.

  17. Wakey says:

    @Charlton’s Comb-over

    Its not as daft as it sounds to ask for a payrise. Many business owners are using the economy as a way to scare their employees and to push them into working more hours without extra pay and to not even get a rise in line with inflation.

    All this while they are increasing the prices they charge for their products/services (Admittedly some of the rise is due to suppliers upping prices)

    Its obviously not the case for all business’s, some are struggling but don’t just take it as a given.

  18. Wakey says:

    @Costas

    Don’t you start with that. Paul H posts on plenty of football related posts and doesn’t deserve being accused of this. Just as I don’t when I keep getting told I don’t post on other subjects when I do (I will give you that responding to these does reduce the time I have to post on Football matters mind you)

    “Or we could extend his contract for a couple of years”

    He however has to want to extend his contract, of it seems he doesn’t then United have to cash in.

    From the way Vidic’s agent was talking It sounds like United tried to discuss a new contract but he asked to be given the world cup and a couple weeks after it to think about what he wants. I do suspect its a negotiating tactic mind you as its a major change in tone

  19. King Eric says:

    willirednut – Too right fella!!!

    Red Devil – I aren’t taking any sides just saying I actually like Paul’s style of post, rather amusing if not a touch condescending. I agree with the fact he says the g and g is becoming stale and most people sporting it don’t know its meaning. Also the fact we are becoming a laughing stock over our “Norwich scarves”.

  20. King Eric says:

    Yeah and likewise there are a few people who only come when its a Glazer thread to lay the boot in. Isaidso being one of them although he did used to post more often.

  21. Wakey says:

    @willierednut

    People respond on issue that draw them in and they have fairly strong opinions on. You don’t post on something that you don’t really have an opinion of either way. Which is why some people will post on certain subjects more than others

    And personally if I’m going to take time be it 1 minute or 30minutes to put a post together then it has to be something that adds to the discussion. I’m not going to post something if 20 people before me have posted the same thing before me, its a waste of my time, a waste of those reading it and when it comes to comments is close to spammy. The way things are on the Glazer issue I can add a lot to the discussion

  22. Costas says:

    @willirednut

    Yeah, it wasn’t directed at Wakey in any way. I have seen him in plenty of non Glazer topics.

    @Wakey

    It’s not an accusation. It’s a response to a comment and an observation I’ve made from my time on this blog. Anyone is free to come here whenever they want. Just don’t say that you would like to see us talk about football more often when you are usually absent when we do. (You not as in you personally).

    On the Vidic subject, my belief is that you can keep almost any player happy. I’ve followed United for 15 years and I find it hard to believe that Nemanja Vidic is our first foreigner who’s wife has trouble living in Manchester. And I haven’t seen any player leave us for that reason. The problem is that by stalling these talks until the World Cup is over(and with the additional concern of other big clubs coming after him), Vidic will hope to get the best deal possible from us. That’s why I believe that we should have held form talks with them long before the World Cup approached.

  23. Costas says:

    *firm talks*

  24. Wakey says:

    @Costas

    Alot of players though don’t like discussing contracts mid season and the clubs are often wary as well so as not to cause on field disruption. If its a fairly simple negotiation it gets sorted during the season (So people like Giggs, Neville, Scholes who will pretty much sign anything in front of them or people like Nani where United hold pretty much all the cards) but when the player holds a lot of the cards and his agent is hence going to fight for the best deal possible I don’t think its in anyone’s interest to distract them with contract negotiations.

    And then you get a major tournament year and there isn’t enough time to get things sorted before they start focusing on that.

    Just look at Chelsea, they were in the middle of discussing deals with a number of their players but terminated them due to the run in. This has seen them left with little choice but to wait till after the World Cup or as we have seen with Ballack and Cole to cut them loose without discussing it further

  25. Costas says:

    @Wakey

    I realise that, but why not discuss things over January or February when Vidic was out of action anyway? There’s always time in my opinion. In the examples that I mentioned above(Ferdinand, Beckham and Giggs), the negotiations took place all throughout the season.

  26. Paul H says:

    Charlton’s-comb-over, thanks v much for blowing my cover. I was trying to be discrete. Now the Gnomes will be coming for me. It’s only a small island y’know.

    Seriously, sometimes a poster’s location is relevant to the post. The other night for example, when I was searching for the docu-drama-romantic-comedy made by Panorama. I might have got ‘try BBC 1 you numpty’. The conversation with the dude with the green and gold hat on wouldn’t have come across the same if you thought I was in Sale. The post on my attempts to explain to some guys in our New York office about the hatred of their countrymen (not all of them) amongst some United supporters and bizarrely their (our) own country, needed to be placed in setting in order to land the message.

    I do enjoy following Scott’s blog from wherever I am and the views of his regular contributors and accolytes. Sometimes people put thought provoking stuff on here, sometimes it’s useful info that perhaps you might not otherwise have found out about. Sometimes people type utter shite. Occasionally you come across some deeply unpleasant bigotry, or worse. Sometimes you have to scroll though the sycophants (you know who you are) before you get to any real debate. But it’s usually there. It’s great and you’ll struggle to find it elsewhere in the web. Try disagreeing or criticising Phil McNulty on his blog and see what happens!

    Like several posters no doubt, I travel often and 99% of the time the location has no bearing on the post. I’ve made contributions from some interesting places and other times, less so. The beauty of carrying an iPhone means ROM can also provide a break from boredom in long, meetings, train journeys, flight delays, kids parties etc etc

    In fact sometimes it could be counter productive to give away. Such as the time I spotted Bryan Glazer, walking unescorted in my local town centre. Imagine what some slightly unstable (not that there are any on here) or unhinged blog reader could have done with that. Doesn’t bear thinking about. Similarly, but for different reasons, it’s probably not fair of me to give the game up next time SAF is sat a few seats up from me on the 1535 Virgin service out of Euston.

    In the interests of balance, Next time I’m holed up in a Premier Inn in some depressing part of England, I’ll make a point of including it in the post.

    Right, must dash, because I need to make breakfast and there’s an angry gnome wading across the pool towards me in this unnamed, former British colony, secret location. Looks like means business!

    Looking forward to seeing Mexico’s no.14 in action later too…

    Cheers for now.

  27. Red Devil says:

    @ King Eric

    Cheers mate…..I know your stance, you usually try to see both sides of the argument and thats fair enough. Even for me, as a professional I have a duty to look at all the sides, the merits, the demerits, the risks and only then take a decision, thats what i have been trained to do….I would love the chance to work on the corporate finance team of the club at some point in the future…am just searching on where to post my resume! :P

    The major exception I have with some of the above posts is the unusually condescending and snobbish nature of the comments without being backed up by relevant expertise or experience, although I must agree they are funny in a quirky sort of way…..but i think people can be funny without being curt…

    @ Wakey

    I do understand that you and others do have a life…..So do I, which is why I had to be away from the blog for a few weeks in between……and you are also right in that we all have our areas of expertise or interest where we feel we can add something relevant to the discussion. I do await your comments and I look forward to improving your understanding of the situation so that we can find more common ground and the situation can evolve…..

  28. Wakey says:

    @Red Devil

    Been snowed under with work and all the football to watch so haven’t had time to go through all your points yet. Will try and get through them one by one.

    Anyway on the Agent Fees. The 30% fees were included in all the shareholders finacial records. This led McManus and Magnier to raise concerns about it in the AGM and included it in their infamous 99 questions letter to the board where they listed around 13 transfers (in and out) where united paid agents a fee equal to 30% of the transfer fee which included Rio, Rooney, Howard, Veron, Stam,Bellion, Kleberson, Carroll, Ronaldo, Blanc, Taibi, Forlan & Greening. They hinted but didn’t specify that there were others that raised concern too about the size of agent fee.

    Another thing they complained about was Rio being on full pay while serving his 6 month ban.

    The club refused to answer the 99 questions but did say the fees were fair and were required to push the transfers through during difficult negotiations. M & M only really brought it up due to their war with Fergie, infact they focused largely on transfers where Fergies sons agency was involved and had ignored the fees for many years.

    I suspect the higher fees were somewhat unavoidable due to the PLC rather than it being poor management. Everyone knew our targets as soon as we made an approach due to the nature of a PLC so the extra fees no doubt were to help push the transfers through quickly before another team could step in as we were starting to see Chelsea do in the last couple of years of the plc.

    It was however a massive amount of out of the ordinary spending that for Rooney, Rio, Veron and Ronaldo alone equals an extra 20mill than normal so that is a benifit of the glazers over the plc

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