There are bad days, and there are really bad days. Yesterday was one of those days for United and United supporters, with the embarrassment of embarrassments at Old Trafford.
Losing to City is one thing, but losing 6-1 to City, at home no less, and losing to City in the manner that it all unfolded, makes it even harder to swallow. But while scorelines and football stats are what people tend to pay the most attention to, when you can look deeper and see how different a result could have been were it not for a couple of key moments, that’s what can drive the stake through even more.
As bad as it all ended, no one could have guessed it would from how it started. Manchester United started positively, dominating possession over the first 20 minutes and looking the more likely side to break the deadlock.
However, United were also the better side throughout the first half in the Community Shield in August, and United ended up down 2-0 at halftime before roaring back for a 3-2 win. And as was the case at Wembley, United were not only unable to translate early superiority into a lead, they fell behind. Jonny Evans made the schoolboy mistake of turning his attention to the ball and away from Mario Balotelli, who was afforded time and space to fire a shot that Evans’ lunge of desperation couldn’t keep from beating David de Gea.
That’s how it would remain until the whistle blew to end the first half, but at that point, United were still very much in the game. We’ve seen many times over the years how adept United are at overturning deficits, so the deficit was far from insurmountable, especially at home.
However, what any optimism didn’t account for was the potential of going down to ten men before there was time to get settled in after the restart. Evans got caught watching the ball instead of Balotelli again, allowing him to get by him with De Gea all by his lonesome. And as he was the last man, trying to prevent Balotelli from advancing without as much as a half-attempt to play the ball fully merited the decision that Mark Clattenburg made after the Italian went tumbling to the ground just as he reached the penalty area.
Still, there was still reason for optimism, because we’ve seen United do some great things even with a numbers disadvantage. Unfortunately, City were out for blood, and understandably so, so instead of seeing what good things can happen when you‘re trying to make a comeback down a man, we got to see the opposite end of the spectrum, to put it mildly.
It was game, set, match when Balotelli and Sergio Aguero made it 3-0, but as you‘d have expected, United continued to fight, and Darren Fletcher pulled one back with less than ten minutes to go. But as admirable as not giving up is, it only served to play into the hands of a team who had a real point to prove. And so, as the final minutes ticked down, disappointment turned into horror as City added a fourth, then a fifth, and finally a sixth.
City were a team on a mission, and they executed that mission very well yesterday, much to the chagrin of anyone who was in red. Possession for the game was nearly even, with City holding a slight edge at 51%, but United’s failure to turn their early dominance in that area into a goal proved to be costly, especially after Evans saw red.
But it’s far too early for anyone to say that the win means that the balance of power is shifting or that United’s hopes for a 20th title are done and dusted. Here come the clichés, sure, but they’re all true.
It’s a marathon, not a sprint, and if titles were won in October and not in May, then United would have far fewer titles, wouldn’t they? Fair play to City for their win, and they have every reason to celebrate, but there are more than two dozen matches left in the season, and as we’ve seen over the years, there are many more twists and turns to come.
Whatever side you’re on, derby wins mean bragging rights for several months, but it could end up being that a match against QPR or Swansea will have more of an impact on the outcome of the title race than this one, and that‘s something that would apply irrespective of yesterday‘s result.
In the end, the result, as bad as it is to look at, could amount to nothing more than a really bad day at the office if United have the right response. When you suffer embarrassment, you can either hang your hand and let it break you, or you can regroup, rise up, and come back better and stronger for it.
Roberto Mancini expects the latter, and more importantly, so does Fergie, who said in his post-match comments:
“We’ll come back. By January we’ll be okay. We usually get the show on the road in the second half of the season and that will have to be the case.”
“We’ve played all the teams around us and they have all to play each other so the second half of the season is important to us now.
“We will react, no question about that. It’s a perfect result for us to react to because there is a lot of embarrassment in the dressing room and that will make an impact.”
United’s penchant for never giving up may have proven detrimental yesterday, but that never-say-die attitude has seen the club overcome adversity, potentially crushing defeats, and being written off by the masses too many times to count. Should we expect anything less this time? I think not.
For more in-depth match analysis and statistics from many leagues and competitions around the world, check out WhoScored.com.
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Not as embarrassing as what the Irish people are about to do on Thursday!!!
With regards to the defence – Rio looked both lost and past-it yesterday; Patrice Evra is out-of-position far too often for a veteran.
Blaming Jonny Evans seems to the rage today but – let’s get real ? – UTD were only one goal behind when he was sent off and in the 53rd minute there was a glorious opportunity for Ashley Young to draw UTD level.
Things went pear-shaped thereafter when SAF continued with an attack-first policy with ten men – that was tragic when Balotelli scored the second and they got the third but the situation only became farcical after they got the fourth, fifth, and sixth after the 89th minute.
very disappointing. it was a real bad day for us.
We will come good, United will never die.
Guys we have to admit.times change.there was agric revolution,imdustrial now its technological.same applies in football.its now an era of money.we cnt deny that our transfer policy over the last years has left a lot to be desired,bebe,obertan etc.look at the teams using money how strong they are getting,psg,chelsea,shitty,madrid etc.glazers should sell us to qatarz then you will understand what i am talking about.
I still think we need to never say die. I’ve seen United win games from 3-0 down before. A team that says die is a team that doesn’t win the treble. That’s the sort of team that downs tools, like so many of our fans did. Fuck it. If we get hammered once every few years then so be it, I’d rather we sometimes took a pasting than stopped playing to the final whistle.
If there wasn’t a downside to never saying die, then everybody would do it. It’s an essential part of the United character that we never quit trying to win. The saddest thing about this result is people admitting that the right thing to do was to curl up into a foetal position at 3-1 and try not to get hurt any more.
Ha, what a coincidence! Having MG around recently has rubbed off on me a bit so I decided to attempt an actual article rather than my usual brand of piss-taking. Want to take a look?
http://www.agentoffergie.com/2011/10/ctrl-alt-delete.html
we really need a world class midfielder imo. We can’t have rooney attacking, creating, defending and chasing back for the whole season can we? Midfielders need to step it up.
We will bonce back at Everton .
Just like after the embarassing 2-1 defeat 3 years ago, it’s up to the players to redeem themselves when it counts: In May. They can do it.
Well if football becomes who can spend the most on rentboys i’ll quit watching but i disagree with Gora,teams like Real and Rentboys have been spending millions for years don’t see them dominating football and untill the sending off Utd were in control of the game
Its been proven over the years money guarantees fuck all and if someone is going to blame the Glaziers please start showing links,because i can’t remember one time when the Glaziers haven’t given Sir Alex the money
Baseball is the one team sport that is really about individuals,year after year the Yankees payroll is the highest this year 203 mill and got bumped 1st round by a team with 1/2 the payroll.Boston had a payroll of 162mill didn’t even make the playoffs.If there’s one sport were money should matter Baseball is it yet year after year the highest spending teams don’t win the World Series,lot more to winning than having money to spend
May I remind some fans of the following facts which occured almost exactly 15 years ago.
United were unbeaten in the league at the start of the 96/97 season and then this happened:
20 Oct – Newcastle – A – LOST 0-5
26 Oct – Southampton – A – LOST 3-6
30 Oct – Fernabache – H – LOST 0-1 (our first ever home defeat in Europe)
2 Nov – Chelsea – H – LOST 1-2
Everyone thought the wheels had well and truly come off during this very dark and dismal period.
OK, none of this included a mauling at home to our neighbours – but all happened when we had 11 men on the pitch!
Shit happens – we get up, dust ourselves down, check Anderson’s passport just see see if it contains the word ‘Brazil’ and move on.
PS – United went on to win the league again that season!
All my Arsenal friends were taking the piss, they felt like it was our turn to feel humiliated.
I actually felt that United gave up in the later stages of the game. I didn’t see any fire or spark from the players, it just felt like they were going through the motions and I can’t think of a single player that seemed to dig deep and really drive for a win (or draw).
I hope that was just me and that you lot saw differently.
We will bounce back and it’s definitely not all over, but I think things need to improve both on the pitch and from the supporters.
Red Simmo
Well said…. That season ended in glory after some bizarre results
I remember 96-97 as well. Lets hope it’s just one bad loss this time! What a lousy way for Fergie to celebrate his decade at the club.
Costas
I remember people calling for the great Dane’s head at the time, saying he’s lost it and gone shit!
How fickle
That 5-0 defeat at Newcastle was strangely just as damaging as yesterday – it put them 5 points ahead of us at the top of the table!
How bizarre
We won the league by 7 points
Will we recover from this result? Not so sure, it’s been on the wall for a while now with poor performances in the last five six games. Not sure what Fergie can do to fix this bar spending a shit load of cash that the Glazers will be reluctant to part with. Sorry for the negativity but when you have to take stick from your other half and her family it’s fucking depressing.
Red Simmo
A case of Deja Vu perhaps? Mind you yesterday was a humiliation, something that the existing 11 City fans around the world will celebrate till their last day
We also have to remember that Newcastle sort of imploded that year with Keegan mysteriously resigning and Dogleash taking over. We won the league with 75 points that season. We will need a bit more this time.
@Cedars
Yeah you are right. Quite simply, players aren’t machines. They’ll have their off days. And when 8-9 players on the pitch are having an off day, you might get results like this. Plus, you need luck too. Has Philipe Albert ever scored a goal like he did that day? And then an unknown Norwegian (Ostenstad I think?) scored a hat trick for Southampton in his debut against us. Just like Balotelli suddenly looked world class yesterday.
@ Gorse Hill
You married a blue???
That makes Evan’s errors almost forgivable my friend
Gorse Hill Red
That is not negativity, its called feeling sick to the bone my friend….. Let it go, they have suffered far worse over the years and Karma can be a bitch
new thread gents.
Costas
What about Berkovic? He was like Pele on the day! hahahaha
Your comment put a smile on my face, thanks for that my friend
“Its been proven over the years money guarantees fuck all ”
But spent wisely money guarantees a lot. It’s natural Mansour City are going to win the league soon, just like other big spenders like Chelsea and Blackburn, and Lazio in Serie A and PSG in France this year. Even Barcelona’s dominance recently is partly because they have had the highst wage bill (unless City have recently eclipsed them, not sure).
You just look at David Silva, a World and European champion and he cost less than English bums like Milner and Andy Carroll and see an example of shrewd business. The kind of signing we should be making but for whatever reason can’t or wont. Our current midfielders simply aren’t sophisticated enough, especially if there’s just two of them. It’s just energy in there but headless chickens aren’t enough, especially if they don’t even look fit.
Good evening my lovely Red Devils around the world,
DogHouse,
cracker of a post and i would agree with every word you put there..
i like the aura of positivity in that post,
thanks..
nothing can stop our love, support and passion for our beloved club and life,
it takes guts to be a red devil and we all stand by this bloody beautiful team, agreed needs improvement, but more than that it needs support and it was sickening to Old traffords lkeaving after 3rd goal..
we are the comeback kings and we will show them why world fears us,
never say die, thats the manchester united way..
Our midfield is too damn weak. I hope Fergie pulls out a magic trick in January and finds one.
we’re man utd, we’ll concede as many as we want
couldn’t help it, saw that somewhere and thought it was quite funny
@ slim
it was quite ironic singing “twenty thousand empty seats” when there was about twenty thousand empty seats
but you are right – you’ve got to smile mate. Even if through gritted teeth and the knowing that you would rather rub your knob on a rusty cheese grater than feel like you do today!
spending wisely isn’t the same as buying rentboys and Silva has become flavour of the month but has improved alot over the last 2 seasons.Utd took a long hard look at him like alot of teams but had a reputation for being lightweight and drifting out of games.
Sometimes fuck all to do with spending wisely,sometimes just about getting lucky.
slim
That was funny!
Right, Reflect on your mistakes, give credit where do, and move on.
In other news:
Vidic confirms International retirement
Javier Hernandez puts pen to his new 5 year contract
Good news for the Monday following bloody sunday. (small caps as we don’t want any confusion)
Regardless how good a motivator Fergie is , you cannot make a cat bark.
Fletcher – Not good enough
Carrick – Not good enough
Gibson – Couldnt even sell him
Cleverley – Good but injury prone
Anderson – Which one ? The good one or the rubbish one ?
Lets face it and lets be honest – Are we just going to talk about the PL or are we serious contenders in the CL anymore ? The fact is, our midfield was shown up against Barca and it is weaker now than it was then. The Glazers still compel me to buy CL tickets whether I want them or not but it is obvious that we are not serious about trying to win it. So long as we have a good enough run to get the money from the latter stages then that is all that matters.
Stop making excuses for what are very average players in our midfield.
Truly world class midfielders were Scholes,Cantona,Keane,Ronaldo – ALL GONE NOW AND LOOK WHAT WE HAVE REPLACED THOSE GREATS WITH ????!!!!!!
@slim, LOL!
There were Sir Alex jokes running around as well similar to Wenger jokes: Cathy wakes SAF and says its 7….SAF wakes and says…shut up woman its only 6!
Thankfully I did not lay me eyes on people saying I’d 6-1 to be a United fan right now.
We’ll hammer them on aggregate at the wastelands…
Anyway don’t know how someone doesn’t figure Utd haven’t spent wisely,Hernandez,Twins,Smalling,Jones,won’t count Young but don’t think 15mill is overspending,just take all the young lads 5 players all quality that won’t even add up to Trannyboys transfer fee.
Utd have issues with midfield no problems anywere else.
@Cyril … loved your blog mate, top stuff!
Oh do piss off you negative whining bitch…. I mean who would post with such a bitchy user name anyway? Shemale perhaps?
wayne
sorry mate i disagree, without turning this into a thread about other players, but that sort of reasoning is flawed. The guy is a talented player and missed a beat when we said no simply because he’s light weight. Well he was on there yesterday with tough guys and made them look school boy. Its time to give talented footballers a chance the way we give them to tough, bulked up guys who think football is all about running around all day
Why do negative cunts always have to precede their most negative statements with the phrases “let’s face it” and “let’s be honest”? As of they’re the only ones who know the truth and have the balls to say it, and the rest of us are lying cowards?
Wayne,had the glazers given fergie money,dont you think we would have bought sneijder or a midfielder of class instead of drafting a 37 year old former winger.i will give you cases where we missed out bcoz of money,essien,robben,sneidjer,silva,nasri,bastien,the list goes on.no doubt e glazerz didnt want 2 incur losses
gotta say disappointed by the stick Danny is getting on the air waves. Guy did nothing wrong- apart from the last goal which he was partly responsible for. Difficult for him and showed fantastic touches at times and tried to make something happen. One of the few players trying to take on his opponent
StatesideAussie
yup, i really hate that. As if they’re saying “its okay, everyone’s gone, lets admit it to ourselves” load of nonsense really
StatesideAussie
Cunts will be cunts, just born that way….Feel sorry for anyone having to parent them though! hahaha
slim i’m not disputing Silva has developed into a top player but there was ??? about him when city signed him,everyone is using Silva as why didn’t Utd buy him 20/20 is always easy after the fact.How many players have City signed and then have discarded,if a team pays 20-30 mill for 20 to 30 players eventually going to get a couple that pan out.At the time definite questions whether Silva would be able to handle the physical nature of the prem and he did have a reputation of being a floater.Also thought he’d been injury prone prior to the City move.
All i’m saying mate,last few threads has been full of why didn’t Utd sign this or that player,it’s easy when a player pans out,like predicting results once the game is over.
Our midfield was torn to shreds – Silva run riot.
As for United, we’ll be back and stronger as a result – once Cleverly returns and the players get that bit between their teeth, we will rise again and come out on top.
Even though I am hurting, we will learn from this and evolve.
Same with Arsenal – it was great we beat them 8-2 but that was an embarassment for them – since then, they’ve gone on a good run.
I hope evans leave soon. I know that people would like for him to be a great united player, but he’s not good enough. He continues to make stupid costly mistakes, and you can’t do that at this level!
wayne
indeed. like i said i don’t want to hijack this thread about other teams players. But i had t make a case about Silva because i distincltively remember the arguments back then, light weigt, will get pushed around, not fit enough, not bulky enough. We can’t think that way anymore, we shouldn’t even be thinking that way in the first place, we have Nani and young in the team and they’re both “light weight”. I disagree with your analysis of the player though. No way was he considered a floater. He was Vital for Valencia and he made David Villa tick and kept a younger Mata out the side. There were little or no question marks about him and he showed it yesterday and throughout last season. Just think its not a good idea discarding intelligent players based on physique
According to Guillem(I know everything about every footballer and football club) Balague, Silva is settled in Manchester. He loves it apparently. Sometimes foreign lads coming over to England don’t settle, and that causes indifferent form. The Red army hoods should pay a visit to Mr Silva’s home.
The only write-up that matters: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/10/23/manchester-united-1-6-manchester-city-tactics/
ZonalMarking.com’s impartial, no-bullshit, hyperbole-free analysis of the game.
Willie – the three slapheads from Florida should have paid a visit to his home in Spain a few years ago with a wheelbarrow full of cash and an MUFC contract.
Evans should leave? Where to?
Pathetic comment
Have to say I’m surprised at the amount of game time Fletcher has had. He’s been playing 90 minutes for both club and country and he has looked fucking knackered. He hasn’t looked the same since coming back after his virus, thought he would be eased into the frame more.
Fred … I’ve been following Zonal Marking for a while now. Don’t always agree with their analysis (though this one seems fair enough) but as you say, they don’t have an axe to grind.
What has happened has happened. We fans should not overreact. Ok evans was at fault for that red card and even for first goal but he is not shit. Agree with scott that smalling is better than evans but that doesnt mean evans should be neglected.He is talented and will learn.
People shout look at the real story.We conceded 3 and I mean 3 goals in last 3 minutes and due to that the scoreline reads 1-6.Those 3 minutes were horrible for us.It was like I was watching england play. Overall we were not that bad.Come on guys we were fighting even with 10 men and were dominating when young had a golden chance.On other day we could have scored that and who knows we would have even won. I Just hope fergie doesn’t press the panic button.I still hope guys like Ando,Jones and smalling get games.3 minutes of pathetic display doesnt determine the true story.
Lets get behind the team and not run away from the situation.Have faith we have the best manager and we are supporting the best club who care about fans.So as Fans its our duty to support and be with our team whatever may be the situation.
BELIEVE
Gora your examples are not accurate you just assume beccause the papers link Utd with a player the team is interested or just because Utd put a bid in the player is automatically going to sign.If you think paying 25mill and 200k a week for Nasri would have been a good signing ok,me personally no fucking way.I have no doubt Utd had the transfer money for WS but the problem was his demands.It’s not just as black and white as Utd making a bid and a player signing.
Everyone seems to forget not every player is a Red and wants to play for Utd,Utd are behind the 8 ball in regards to English taxation and weather before they even start competing against other teams.
Just because Sir Alex doesn’t want to pay 25mill and 200k a week for Nasri how is that the Glaziers fault.?
Glazier bashing starts always after a bad result but as far as i know Glaziers don’t get involved in transfer matters and have always made money available.All i’m saying if accusations are made then give me proof,Sir Alex god knows how many times has said transfer money isn’t a issue but finds the amount being spent on players and wages is fucking mental,Sir Alex is in charge of personel not the Glaziers i’m convinced if he was getting interference would have retired.Sir Alex has come out many times and said the Glaziers are good owners and back him all the time,i want proof to the contray if fans are going to blame the Glaziers because i believe Sir Alex
wayne – what makes you think Sir Alex vetoes expensive signings?
I love your comment ash.
At this juncture please remember the big picture. We have a very young team which is still actually in the gelling phase! Yesterday’s major (Texas sized) ass whupping was painful. But the golden opportunity that exists here must be taken up. In this most emphatic defeat we have to realize the seeds of future victory can be sown. Had we lost 3-1 we may not be as willing to really examine the causes. Now we have no choice.
We had this coming for a while. City had the quality to punish us for a lack of discipline and errors. Before them we had escaped. But we all saw it in previous matches and knew we had problems to address. Now the exuberance of youth has been seasoned with temperance. Offense wins games but defense wins championships !! Going into this game of ALL THE EPL we had CONCEDED THE MOST SHOTS ON GOAL. Quite shocking!! And, a harbinger of what happened yesterday.
In my opinion, our midfield is the biggest problem and the back four pay a hefty price for that. I do think we need at least one more world class player there. We need a natural and consistent leader there. One who can distribute, play defense and control tempo. Minus Cleverly, Ando had exerted valiantly but for him to be at this best he needs a foil. Cleverly’s injury by the craven Kevin Davies (I am definitely NOT a Kevin Davies fan) fully illustrates that we need redundancy in the midfield.Our defense is progressing ( and some regressing). But until our midfield can get it done without Rooney’s help we will not fully realize our ambitions.
The gaffer gets this so standby to see he this plays out.
@Ash
Sorry how much time are we meant to give Evans to learn? He doesn’t fill his centre back partner or fans with confidence. His decision making is poor, he’s often caught hesitating, being out muscled and being caught square on. He’s had his chance and he’s given his all but he’s not good enough for the club. Jones got him out of trouble against Norwich and then got nudged down to the bench for the biggest game of the season.
@CedarsDevil – You are an obnoxious little cunt.
You make what was once a good forum a place for bullying little cyber faggots to act all hard.
You call me a negative cunt and a she male because I post my perfectly valid opinion and my thoughts on getting battered by City.
I think it is high time Scott reigned you in – You are a nasty spiteful snidey little prick who thinks he si the fucking Daddy on this website for some reason – Why dont you just stop with your nasty cunty little put downs – It has turned this blog into a fucking pointless excercise – Only come on here is you say everything is great and I love United and Fergie is perfect and we will never die.
Any team is only as good as its last result and we just got dicked – If you think that is OK then that tells me you obviously enjoy a good dicking aswell.
Conjecture.
I don’t want to watch a team of overpaid rentboys anyway,it be against everything Utd is about,if it just comes to the point of that fuck football because nothing would be left,just a fucking super league of teams with rich owners,rich mans ego league,complete seperation from its working class roots.
Money ruins everything and it is certainly ruining football
I am wondering if Sir Alex has intentions to groom Phil Jones as a “central strongman”.
Where was the sunday last week?
just disappeared.
any news if Pogba is gonna play tomorrow?
LEADERSHIP on the pitch.
More than anything we have lacked a leader on the who is aware of the ebbs and flows and can direct the team.
@Gary
I agree with you evans gets out muscled many times but I have seen him improve this season. Speaking of norwich game I thought evans did a wonderful job against them. Now blaming evans for conceading 6 goals is stupid.And mind you he is 23. Defenders peak at 27-29 age.
I can understand the frustration you have but to write off evans is not correct.
I bloody hate the saying “you’re only as good as your last result” that is absolute bollocks! Obviously this makes Queens Park Rangers world beaters. Who ever started that saying needs fucking shooting if they’re still alive.
Now one thing that I really want from sir alex is a stable team. Whether anyone accept it or not changing our squad for every game has affected our game. I hope Sir alex sorts it.
One more thing that I am bothered is about De gea. I hope he doesnt lose his confidence after this. He is a classy keeper and should concentrate harder.\
Sabada
Thanks mate
LoneStarRed … yes, I was commenting on this yesterday, specifically on how miss Scholes’s ability to control the pace of the game.
Fred conjecture maybe but what is Glazier bashing without proof,i’m just going from what Sir Alex has said about the transfer market.Utd as far as i know have a payroll structure in place most of the ‘top players’ City,Real,Barca sign get 250-300k a week,so it’s not just spending the transfer money.Football is out of control and it’s teams like City that are causing it,Real and Barca are broke trying to stay top,unless a team has a owner with unlimited money or get dodgy deals from banks its a road to ruinination,as far as i know compared to the value of the club the debt is under control.So again if it is the Glaziers show proof or don’t make accusations.Dosen’t matter to me the day Utd become City i’ll quit watching football anyway
StatesideAussie
that’d be interesting. But worried about the lads preference to CB. He never fails to mention it whenever it brought up in an interview or chat with him . Really curious to see how SAF handles the team. We say we’ll bounce back as we have before and all of that but this scenario is slightly different i feel and i’m eager to see what he comes up with in the coming months
@Ash
I can appreciate your support for him and I wish I could have your faith in him but unfortunately I don’t. Football is a ruthless business unfortunately and I just think Jonny Evans would cost us again in the future. Every football is not error free, it’s football mistakes will happen but unfortunately he’s more prone to them to be a top quality centre back for Manchester United in my opinion.
footballer* sorry. Bloody Iphone!
Ash … I doubt SAF will abandon his rotation policy. He’s been using it for years now and there’s a reasonable case to be made that we’ve been the better for it. As for de Gea, he looked pissed yesterday. If he can channel it the right way, that will be good for him.
Fred – To be fair mate, they give Fergie 50 million in the summer to strengthen the squad. We bought Young, Jones and De gea. The manager chose not to sign a CM, we’d all been craving. IMO, that’s on Fergie. I couldn’t tell you why we didn’t up grade the midfield. Only the boss knows why.
wayne – football is definitely going that way. Half of the Premier League already is foreign-owned:
Arsenal – USA
Aston Villa – USA
Blackburn Rovers – India
Chelsea – Russia
Fulham – Egypt
Liverpool – USA
Manchester City – Abu Dhabi
Manchester United – USA
QPR – Malaysia
Sunderland – USA
There are a few foreign owned teams in the Championship too (Birmingham, Derby, Leicester, etc)
wayne – I was just correcting LoneStar Red (“All this juncture…”) when I said “conjecture”.
Yesterday after we got rammed 1 – 6 by bitters,
I went out for drinks,
I know football is all about support, involvement, passion and emotions,
But then I got an SMS from my own brother, who is a diehard Liverpool fan since 15 years,
“Don’t worry, it’s just a game, don’t drink more, come back home soon, we are waiting”
Such small things can bail you out of any situations in life still keeping that love and passion for club and the game,
I m glad, it did brought me back to some sense and control,
Manchester United
@Fred ?
“At this juncture” meaning we are at a stopping place and no the final destination in regards to the season. “As we stop here and take stock of the situation” would have been the more verbose way to say it.
Ohhh, I see. My mistake. Sorry!
I’ll take a vowel please Jeff.
Sandeep … actually, it’s not “just a game”, but in the circumstances, that is a perfectly accpetable lie to tell ourselves!
@Wayne 17:45
All started by Jack Walker and Blackburn. To be fair to Jack Walker he was a lifelong fan of Blackburn and wanted them at the top but he started the ball rolling. Utd had a good pay structure at the time which we had to break to attract the top players. We got Keane from under their noses by breaking our pay structure.
cont.( pressed the wrong button)
The next time we had to do it was when Abramavic showed up. We had to do it to keep Rooney last season.
The shit are finding loopholes in the fair play rules, re naming their stadium for 100 million or whatever it cost. We can maybe hope the fair play rules might just stop their spending power.
@Costas Make no mistake, Balotelli (or “Bibatelli” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erI5dG3_R5E&feature=player_embedded ) can be formidable at times. Yes he is definitely ” a few french fries short of a happy meal” ( not all there mentally) as we say here. But the boy has undeniable football talent. Evans will attest to that.
LoneStarRed … he’s a pork chop short a BBQ. A sandwich short of a picnic. He’s got kangaroos loose in the top paddock.
@Cyrill Good piece. Well done
@StatesideAussie .. I love it!
To all: Do watch the video of Balotelli putting on his bib. It is absolutely hilarious!!!! And we certainly need a good laugh right now.
Bar Evans’ suspension, all our defenders should now be available (I’m assuming Rafael will play at some point tomorrow, he’s been training for 10 days or so I think). So Fergie needs to make a decision in his defence at some point in the next couple of weeks…..rotation is fine, but in defence you need to be settled, especially when you’ve got a rookie GK behind them.
Everton away is a friggin tough game…..I’ve got a feeling that he might revert to his tried and trusted Rio & Vidic partnership, hoping that will tighten us up defensively. Smalling to continue at RB, Evra at LB.
But…once the twins have proved they’re not made of glass- then one of them should take the RB slot and let Smalling develop a partnership with Vidic. I love Rio, and despite what a lot of people here think, I feel he has plenty to offer. He becomes a bit of a scapegoat as well, when tbh, he’s constantly being left exposed by the positional naivety of some of the other defenders. Saying that though, he’s not a week in week out player any more, and we need continuity. Maybe for some big games, particularly in Europe, he can come in for a twin and Smalling can go to RB.
Will Cleverley be involved at Aldershot tomorrow? I really hope He does
StatesideAussie,
yeah mate agree with you on that,
but just to bring back something postive in mind, lies help sometimes
Is ok big bro Ash
@Dan i dont think cleverley is among but pogba is among
Sparkz . I know what you are saying, but logically speaking, you can’t establish “continuity” over a couple of weeks. By definition, it takes a little more time than that
And, frankly, us fans should be the last ones to lecture SAF on continuity. Individually and collectively, we’re as fickle as shit.
Seriously, though, the point of the rotation system is that it offers insurance in a season that is long and busy and is always subject to unexpected absences through injury and suspension. Last season, for example, we often played ugly football but it was good enough to win the PL, and I think it’s fair to say that while few of us were excited by the footy we played on occasion, not many of us lost sleep over issues of “availability” that give other teams nightmares.
I think it’s fair to say there is no perfect system, no perfect solution. A rotation policy has its pros and cons, as does the opposite approach (not sure what to call it). Those pros and cons are basically the opposite of each other.
Stability allows players to bond and become cohesive. I’m convinced that one of the reasons Barcelona play aso well together is that their “core team” do in fact play the bulk of their matches together each season: all their main players play 50+ matches each per year (we have only a few who play over 40). But a stable approach also leaves you vulnerable to changes beyond your control (perhaps Barcelona, playing ina less physical leeague, have been less susceptible to injuries).
Rotation makes the team more “robust” in the face of unavoidable changes but means there is less conhesion in the team.
@Stateside- Lol, I meant he has to make his decision within the next couple of weeks and decide what defence he’s gonna use as his core.
I hear what you’re saying about rotation, and in this League, its a necessity if we want to compete on all fronts (La Liga is a much less intense league, hence Barca are able to give their main players so much game time). Rotate the midfielders and forwards. But the back 4, especially with a rookie GK, has to be a different story IMO.
If you’d asked me this a few seasons ago, I would’ve said it doesn’t matter. If you remember when we kept our record clean sheets (late 2008-early 2009)…..we didn’t really have a settled back 4, which made the feat even more amazing! We were chopping and changing but it didn’t really seem to harm us defensively (maybe coz we generally had a fully firing Fletcher & Carrick in the middle of the park).
Right now though, its anything but, we’re extremely shoddy at the back. Therefore, to me, it makes sense to get some stability.
I strongly approve of Scott’s attempt to rally the troops and bring some perspective and optimism to the forum. But , unusually, I don’t fully agree.
I think there is a real possibility that City will win the league, which could be a catalyst for a genuine sea-change. It’s not that City could ever overtake United in terms of achievements, status, mythology, tradition, global recognition, love-and-hate emotional resonance, because I don’t believe they will. But in the short-to-medium term they could overtake United in terms of silverware and dominance. They will keep spending and spending without limit until they win things. They already have a very strong team, however much we’d like to dismiss it, and Mancini looks as though he’s getting them to play good attractive football. My brother’s a Spurs fan , season-ticket holder, supporter since the mid-50s, and he said he’s seldom seen an away side demolish Spurs as well as City did earlier this season.
Yes things could have gone the other way yesterday, especially after a strong, dominant start (just like at Wembley). But the truth is United’s defending has been poor all season, even in good victories like Arsenal and Chelsea, even against middling opposition like Norwich (and to a lesser extent Stoke). Then our overall form in Europe has been dire, especially in the near-suicidal performance against FC Basle. In almost all these matches the sometimes crazy defending has been rescued by strong attacking, but the longer the season has gone on, the weaker that attacking play has become, leaving the defence even more exposed. At Anfield Fergie put out a team with Jones as a midfield protector, a role he’s never played for United, signalling his recognition that United have become very vulnerable. Jones did OK, and played with guts and spirit, as he always does. So what happenes against City? He’s dropped to the bench.
There’s no settled pattern, no agreed shape for different situations, all is flux.
Yes there are numerous mitigating circumstances for United’s unravelling defence, including endless injuries, meaning the back four is never the same two matches running. But even when it’s possible to have some consistency, Fergie’s gone for some new line-up, perhaps hoping to catch the opposition by surprise. Hence sometimes it’s Jones at right back, sometimes Smalling. Smalling was terrific in midweek at centre half, so , of course, he’s back at right back for City. Where’s the consistency? Yet, with Evra, who’s been inconsistent ever since the 2010 World Cup, gets the nod week after week, leaving that flank exposed ocver and over again. Consistency, yes, at least we always know, and our opponents always know, that’s a definite weak spot.
I am not in favour of scapegoating individuals, including the manager, although I think he has made mistakes. Some failings are individual, notably Evra’s, but far more it’s a structural problem. The endless changes right through the team mean players are having to learn on the job, often in the most testing, high-profile matches. It’s sometimes amazing how well they do that, as with the isolated Welbek at Anfield or Jones pretty well everywhere he plays.
I’m not going to tell Fergie his job, but United really do need to sort out a settled defensive formation, to give the midfield and forwards more of a platform. I couldn’t believe the amount of space given to City yesterday, not just in those catastrophic last three minutes, but all through the match. There’s never any solidity, there’s always a good few gaps for opponents to exploit. It’s no surprise de Gea has had the most shots to save in the Premiership, that’s a sign of how weak we’ve become. Oh for the glory days of Bruce & Pallister, Stam & Johnsen, Rio & Vidic… oh yes, we’ve got the latter pairing already, except they’re never both truly fit. It was clear Vidic wasn’t fit enough for this fixture but more worrying is the strained, ashen ,struggling Rio stumbling through, unsure what to do with the ball when he’s got it, beyond a hopeful punt.
These are long-term, systemis, structural problems, which won’t be solved easily. Yes the United DNA of attacking football will take us a long way, but not when the team lacks a solid foundation.
Finally, I repeat what I said yesterday on another thread. This is a transitional team, which doesn’t mean it’s allowed not to compete at the very top for every trophy going. United always have to be there or thereabouts for everything. But it does mean patience and continuingg support for the players even when they are struggling for form and as they adapt to life without giants like Scholes. I repeat, the fans leaving after United after we’d gone 3-0 down are unforgivable traitors, not fit to admire the badge. If we are to stop City’s humiliating 6-1 from becoming a real lift-off point for future dominance, we’ve all got to get behind whoever Fergie picks, regardless of whether he’s made a mistake.
We have got to stand United. We all know that.
@LADY GAGA : dude you’re a shemale. just accept it. .
fuckin noob.. go over to blue moon it suits you
Sparks … well, I think Giles has just given a perfect (and very passionate) response to me lecture about rotation systems lol, even if it wasn’t his intention to respond to me in particular.
Indeed, can’t argue with a lot of it. Saying that though, I do fully trust Fergie’s judgement, even if I disagree with certain aspects. Purely because of his track record.
We are definitely a team (oops, squad) in transition. Over the last few years, we have totally relied on rotation. We haven’t had a “first 11″, nor even a large core of first-choice players. Even when everyone has been fit and available, over the last few years (certainly since CR left) our core players have been limited to VDS, Vidic, Rio, Evra and Rooney. Perhaps, last year, we could have added Nani to that too. But I always thought it instructive that our “core group” of first-choice players did not include any central midfielder. It would have included Scholes, except his age meant he couldn’t do it week-in, week-out. Same with Giggs. I’m not saying the others were crap. I’m just pointing out that if you knew there was “a match” coming up, and all the players were fit and available and there was no reason to hold anyone out, the only starting names you could write down with any confidence would have been those five, and possibly Nani, none of them a midfielder.
And yet the midfield is the spine of any team.
This year, the situation has gotten worse. One of our core players (VDS) has retired, two others (Rio and Vidic) have been injured (and in Rio’s case, even when he’s not injured, I think he has reached the stage where he can’t play every week anyway), and Evra is out of sorts.
Even a squad that uses rotationas much as ours, still requires some stability. You still need some sort of stable core around which “the others” can be switched in or out. And that seems to be the problem this year — that finally, we have stretched it too far. We no longer have a skeleton that we can dress up in various ways. We just have this sort of jellyfish thing which sticks out a tentacle here or there and can occasionally sting the fuck of the enemy, but doesn’t actually have a backbone.
we will recover no doubt.
In Sir Alex I Believe
@Stateside….I very much agree. There must be a constant here. Out team is young and that means keeping it simple until experience internalizes options to the point that it moves at the speed of thought. A core group has constant responsibilities and the rest can be interchanged. And, we don’t have the luxury like Barca of not being in a very physical league.
@Giles & Stateside, Top posts as per usual.
Stateside, What do you think about adding Tom to that list? I’ve been beating his drums ever since the loss. Now, not for one minute am I saying that all our problems will be solved once he returns. But I am pretty sure that the general credibility of our mid-field and the level of its performance will definitely improve with Tom Cleverley in the lineup than without him. That is not putting a lot of pressure on him. I am not expecting him to run defenses ragged immediately like Scholesy used to in his heyday. But I am expecting him to provide a certain level of solidity to our mid-field that Vidic does to our defense. I am expecting him to improve our general play through the middle, and I certainly think he is well-equipped to do that.
As for the defense, well, I don’t have to say anything that hasn’t already been said by you or Giles or Denton. Sir Alex knows there is a problem, and I hope that he sorts it out by the Everton game. We should see a difference on Saturday. That much is certain.
Great read
LSR defense wins championships.
Willie only SAF knows why! ??? !
I meant solidity in a general sense and not in a defensive sense obviously. I meant that Tom will allow us to get the ball down and pass it to our forwards and wide players more often than we’ve done in the past few weeks. Both Nani and Young, not to mention Rooney as well, have looked ineffective because of the lack of service from the middle. I feel the return of Cleverley will address that problem for now. As for the other gaping problem of lack of defensive solidity, I don’t have any answers to that.
Balaji … I think TC probably is being groomed to become that “constant” in midfield, which we have lacked for some years now. Obviously, a different type of player to keane and others we have had there. And likewise, I reckon Smalling and Jones are pegged to take Rio and Vida’s places in the “core group”. Others, like Pogba, are also ear-marked, no doubt. The trouble is, I don’t think any of them have fully established themselves yet. I think there’s an excellent chance that they will, but it’s too early. Which is why, of course, we’re a team in transition. But the transition is a process, not an event — meaning it takes time.
Just thinking about it … it may even be that our increased usage of a rotational system has in part been a deliberate ploy by Sir Alex to compensate for the fact that, as players like Keane and Scholes left, he couldn’t just replace them — because players of that calibre just aren’t readily available whenever you need them. They really are “once in a generation” players. If you hired Da Vinci as your artist-in-residence, what do when he dies or retires? Obviously, it would be great to find and hire “the next da Vinci”, but that’s not a plan, it’s a lottery. You can’t know when the next da Vinci will come along, and even when he does, you can’t guarantee that you’ll be able to get him. So maybe what you do is invent a totally different business plan — one that doesn’t require a da Vinci — and live off that 9while all the time keeping your eyes open…) Bad analogy, perhaps, but the best I can do
@ Stateside, belaji, LSR, Giles lads great posts loved Reading through the conversation
@Lady G mate you need to chil pal as in your rants I agree with some points but you seem to be on a mission with a few in here! yesterday you was calling for Fergies head which forget the so called clique in here will piss most proper united fans off. I replied yesterday and I don’t mean proper as a ROM wank fest or the continuous spouting believe proper as in understanding what SAF is to us as it’s bit like were in decline were the current champions!
With that I do agree that you should be able to come on here and vent as we were fucking awful and slapped 6-1 by them it doesn’t get any worse! Too many people have knee jerk responses though condemning everything from Evans to Fergie! In reality we are probably three players off challenging Europe and a class midfielder away from our usual Prem dominance!
Given what SAF and the team have done for us in recent times regardless of results and shit performances can we just not support our fucking club no matter what? I’ll be at Akdershot tomorrow bouncing and I’ll tell you what I’m saving this thread and yesterdays fir may as I am predicting we will be fucking right up there as per usual and no need for a postmortem everytime we slip off the tracks! Sometimes a spanking is what you need, yep I have been ruined since yesterday but it will make it all more the sweeter when we price the ABU’s wrong again!
here’s what i saw a scouser say:”I’ve been saying for months that this Manu side is average and Manu fans would come back at me with venom and mirth.I’m not having a go at them,i’m just saying what i can see with my own two eyes.This result was coming for a while.With the strenght of the Man City squad and the strength of the Chelsea squad plus the nouse of AVB,i can see them fighting for the title and Manu fighting it out with Liverpool, Arsenal and Spurs for the other 2 spots.All good things come to an end Manu.20 years of dominance is long enough.I know as a Liverpool supporter when an era is over and this era is over for Manu”
@LoneStarRed
Ha, cheers for the video. No denying that he has talent, but I feel that you can neutralize him by just outsmarting him. It’s not that hard. Like stealing candy from a baby, lol. Among other things, I think we had a serious problem defending against his and Silva’s movement. And as a result, Milner was finding all the room in the world. What a mess.
@T4M
Thanks for stopping by.
You assume our situations are similar…they are not. Just on the surface , the core of your team is old and your transfer market moves are dubious at best and self destructive at worst. Our team problems are borne from youth and inexperience. To sum it up , LFC is in notable decay and we are nascent. Even so we are still challenging for top.
@Stateside- would you not put Carrick in that core group? Obviously not any more, but up until this season, he’s been the constant in the middle of the park- when fit he played. His partners have constantly changed….Scholesy, Fletch, Ando, Giggsy….but he’s been there the whole way.
Lady Gaga
Why so upset babe? I never even addressed you darling
@Costas
Your point really amplifies our lack of midfield control. The only really creative players on City are Adam Johnson (underutilized) , Silva ( who ripped us a new one yesterday) and Aguero (instinctive and deadly). Bibatelli , on his day can be included but he is wildly inconsistent.
The rest are opportunists with no real flair, i.e . Milner and Barry ( FA robots as they have been called here) . So if they are contained and pressed , they are ineffective. (wait, was I talking about our midfield right now…) So for Milner to shine says we did not get it done.
Sparkz … no, I don’t think so. Carrick has obviously been a significant player for us but I don’t think he has been treated as an almost certain starter. The only other one who was close was Park, and that was only in Europe and major domestic games.
@T4M
My reply is to your quoted Scouser.
@Stateside- 52, 49, 43, 44, 44……….how many games he’s played in the last 5 seasons. More than any of our other midfielder mate!
Think of a random game in the last 5 seasons, and chances are he played in them! The fact that he was the only player with the discipline to sit in front of the back 4 (as Hargreaves was crocked) meant that he was always gonna be a near certain starter.
Sparks … right, but that isn’t really what I meant by core players. What I meant is, who are the players that Fergie would always want to play, wouldn’t even consider any alternatives for (unless they were unavailable). We know that Rooney will start, unless he’s injured, suspended or the schedule is congested. Until this year, we knew that VDS would start. We could still say that about Rio and Vidic and Evra — those, rightly or wrongly, have generally been Sir Alex’s first choice players. Nani is close. And, in Europe, Park for sure. But I wouldn’t say that about cariick. It’s not a quality judgment. In fact, I appreciate Carrick a lot more than many on here. But if Carrick, Fletcher, Anderson, Park, Giggs and Cleveley were all fit and available, and we had no other fixtures coming up, can you say for sure that Sir Alex would almost certainly pick Carrick as one of his two in the middle? I’m not asking whether you think he should play or not, I am asking what you think SAF would do — how much would you be prepared to bet that his name would be on the starting team sheet? And if you ask me, I wouldn’t be confident at all about predicting the line-up.
@Stateside- “But if Carrick, Fletcher, Anderson, Park, Giggs and Cleveley were all fit and available, and we had no other fixtures coming up, can you say for sure that Sir Alex would almost certainly pick Carrick as one of his two in the middle? ”
Now? Nope. But for most of the last 5 years? Yes, I have been, and that was shown by Fergie’s team selections for many seasons…Carrick was almost always there.
As I mentioned before, now things have changed.
How many teams are there who go on the attack when they are ten men down?
1 = Manchester United.
if we were to sit back, the fans and ABUs will slate us for being cowards
if we were to attack, we might have a chance to snatch something at least.
Glory Glory MU!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2053048/Sir-Alex-Ferguson-punish-senior-stars-Aldershot-appearance.html?ITO=1490 this is what i meant about the fallout.its here
Bit of a non story IMO. Vidic was always gonna play vs Aldershot, he needs match practice.
If Fergie was really gonna punish the guys from Sunday and make them play vs Aldershot….then why on the Mail’s “probable team”, is Jones the only player from Sunday?
I don’t doubt that he gave them a hairdryer in the dressing room, but that was pretty obvious, no great journalism there!
The most interesting thing about Daily Fail story is the photo: Rooney, Hernandez, Fletcher and Evra all standing there hands on hips. It was at a kick-off, not sure which one.
An ass chewing from the gaffer was a total given . It seems that a lot of the British papers are just as good as the American ones……….for lining a litter box.
Utd will be back.
I don’t understand the continuous negative comments we keep getting about our players and team,
and this isn’t just recent, it happens year in, year out.
The way some carry on, you’d never guess United is the most successful club in England…
an outsider would think we’re Newcastle or dare say pool.
Facts are, we’re strong, very strong and have been for a while,
when complacency seeps in, doesn’t matter how great things are, people need to find something to have a whinge about.
Granted, we got taught a lesson on the weekend, but one thing we do is learn from lessons and bounce back.
my money is still on United for the 20th.
it’s not one win that gets the trophy, SAF knows that.
Interesting story from Gary Pallister about how the boss reacted to our 5-1 defeat by City in 1989:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/8846736/Sir-Alex-Ferguson-will-stay-calm-but-use-pain-of-defeat-to-motivate-Manchester-United-revival-says-Gary-Pallister.html
It’s interesting in the context because a lot of people on here expected massive hair dryers from Sir Alex after yesterday but I wasn’t so sure. I guess he did give the hair dryer this time, but I was actually expecting something more like Pallister describes here.
@stateside
interesting you have never seen Carrick as a regular starter. I think the first three years he was a guaranteed starter for me as he played in every game in which we played full strength. He was instrumental in 2007 and 2008. I thought after last weeks performance in Europe he definately would have started ahead of Ando on Sunday.
@Stateside
the pic of the players hands on hips was the 4th goal as that as that was the most deflating one inside the ground as we had a glimmer of hope after Fletch’s.
Some points which my friend and i noted during the last 5 – 6 matches, starting the one with Stoke.
1. Evra was way too casual with the ball, and lost it too frequently as a result.
2. Our first touch on the ball is rubbish, especially Welbeck. When you have just 2 touches to gain an advantage and attempt a goal, a lousy first touch will always make you look mediocre.
3. Our midfield is creatively dead. Anderson, Fletcher, Carrick are average at best. Young is, well, too young. We need someone to partner Nani who can churn out quality chances to our forwards for 90 minutes of each match.
4. Why isn’t the top scorer of last reason no longer our first pick? What he achieved last reason was not by fluke or luck, but class. Pair berba, chicharito with rooney for the majority of matches. Welbeck and owen can be substitutes.
How ????!!!!
Well said @ 19:11 Giles.
Only Alex knows the motive behind his selections, and with it being this early in the season im sure he’s focussed on the new year. We started this campaign brilliantly, then suffered injuries to Jones, Smalling, Rio, Vidic, Welbeck and Cleverly, which staggered our progress. Recently we’ve been playing more belaboured, but we’re still not far off recapturing that early form. As you alluded, securing the platform first is vital.
Anand … how can you say Young is too Young? He is 26. How old does he need to be? He is a month older than TonyV and quite a bit older than Nani. Perhaps you mean to say he is immature? It’s not an opinion I agree with, but it makes more sense than saying he is too young.
I wouldn’t care about all of those stats tbh, this ain’t basketball to begin with. But if it will provide any consolation for this defeat then so be it. We’ll always get behind our lads no matter where we are or how worse defeat may come by. They’ll bounce back, and so are we. Roll on the next match, I say. GGMU.