I had a heated discussion with one of my mates last week after he was fuming over Sir Alex Ferguson’s decision to play a weakened side against Besiktas. Not known for my Fergie bashing, it was fairly obvious which side of the fence I was going to stand.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not for one second claiming the manager always gets it right and never fucks up, because of course we all know that he does.
However, as I’ve got older, and been proved wrong time and again, I try to remain as positive as I can over the manager’s decisions, even when at times they seem bonkers.
The examples of this are far-reaching, ranging from what appears to be the clinically insane (like selling Mark Hughes, Paul Ince and Andrei Kanchelskis and replacing them with a bunch of unproven kids whilst still suffering the loss of Eric Cantona during his ban) to the fairly baffling (starting Giggs and Fletcher in the centre of our midfield against Chelsea – I know that wouldn’t be odd now, but just a year ago, it certainly was!)
For me, there’s only so many times you can be made to look an idiot before you hold your hands up and surrender. The guy knows more and has a better feeling about football than I could learn in several lifetimes, there’s no shame in that, so let him get on with it.
Of course we can grumble at team selections, of course we can write off players, of course we can pinpoint who we need to sign, because that’s what fans do. But the manager would have to do something far more mental than playing a team of youngsters to bring about my doubt.
Would we be in a better situation now had we played a stronger team against Besiktas? Definitely. We’d probably have confirmed our place on top of the group, our impressive European record would still be in tact, and the youngsters could be given their opportunity against Wolfsburg in a meaningless match. For the club, right now, that would have been the better option. If Ferguson was Chelsea’s manager, the latest stop gap before the next replacement came in, then we would be right to think he’s barmy. Fortunately, we’ve got a manager thinking about the future.
The effect of the youngsters playing in that game can’t be scientifically measured, but I’d argue it will have had an impact on them.
Belief
They went on to that field knowing that the better option would be the play a stronger side but that the manager had the faith in them that they could do it. Can you measure what that feeling would do to a teenage lad whose grown up dreaming of playing for United? The manager of Manchester United believes in you and your ability. Wow.
Experience
Playing in the Reserves week in week out doesn’t come close to replicating the tempo and atmosphere of a European Cup night. Besiktas wanted to claim the best result in their club’s history and fought hard for it. As if Macheda or Gibson will play against that sort of mentality in Wigan Reserves! The only way you’ll ever be ready for the big games is if you play in them. Fabregas took the piss out of Fletcher in their 1-0 victory over us at Old Trafford in 2006. But who was man of the match when we battered them 4-0 at Old Trafford the following season? Or wiped the floor with them at the Emirates the season after? It is rare for inexperienced players to get it right first time but you need to stick with the belief they will get it right one day, thanks to the experience gained from playing.
Pain
I can’t imagine it felt great for those youngsters as they trudged off to the dressing room last week, knowing they had just blown United’s easy qualification and a long-standing record. It was probably a feeling they want to avoid for a very long time and will serve as a permanent reminder to what can happen if you don’t perform as well as you should. A 20-year-old Ryan Giggs and 19-year-old Nicky Butt probably didn’t feel too clever when walking off the field following that 4-0 spanking by Barcelona either, but it didn’t do them any harm. Tasting the pain of defeat does young and ambitious players no harm, in fact, it probably does more good than tasting victory. You can’t get complacent at this club, every game you should be aspiring to win, and every defeat should serve as the greatest incentive to improve.
Still, the manager reacted angrily to criticism the day after the Besiktas defeat, and rightly so.
“Someone wrote, ‘There’s no future for these players, there’s no tomorrow for them’. What an idiot,” he blasted. “I couldn’t believe that. I played six players — two 18-year-olds, a 19-year-old, a 20-year-old, a 21-year-old and a 22-year-old — in a European game and you say there’s no future for them. It’s unbelievable. When Beckham, Butt, Scholes and all those lads made their debuts as a group, they were 22 years of age, three years ahead of these players.”
Alan Hansen famously claimed that you’ll never win anything with kids and our lads proved him wrong. But he wasn’t claiming those kids will never grow in to players who are good enough. It is bizarre to look at a teenager and claim he will never be good enough for United. When Cantona was 18-years-old, he was playing in France’s second tier on loan for Martigues (who finished two points away from relegation). Who the fuck is some journalist to say whether an 18-year-old is good enough or not?
If we compare Welbeck and Macheda to the impact of Fergie’s famous fledglings it might give us a clearer picture.
Danny Welbeck, 19-years old, 19 first team appearances, 2nd season. (Beckham 11, Butt 2, Scholes 0)
Federico Macheda, 18-years-old, 10 first team appearances, 2nd season. (Beckham 1, Butt 1, Scholes 0)
They were nobodies when they were Welbeck and Macheda’s age. They weren’t scoring goals which massively influenced the title staying in Manchester like Kiko did. They weren’t playing in every game in a competition that we went on to win, like our youngsters were in the League Cup last season. They certainly weren’t playing in European Cup games for us! But it didn’t stop them go on to be great players. The fact that our youngsters are already doing these things doesn’t set in stone their futures at United, but they certainly can’t be written off because they lose 1-0 in the Champions League group stages!
The emergence of players like Wayne Rooney, Cristiano Ronaldo and Cesc Fabregas means the pressure on young players in higher than ever. Suddenly all players are expected to cut the mustard when they’re in their teens, and if not, they’ll never make the grade.
Which brings me full circle to my belief in the manager, who saw something in Darren Fletcher that the majority of the fans didn’t, and the press certainly didn’t. It’s incredible when players break on to the scene as kids, but they are the anomalies, not the players who bloom in their 20’s.
Ahead of our League Cup quarter-final against Spurs, Ferguson revealed who would be playing. “It will be the same players who played on Wednesday [against Besiktas], despite the criticism they got.”
I’m sure the manager was happier than anyone, apart from the player himself, when Darron Gibson put us 1-0 up following a period of pressure from Spurs. Not relieved, because he had faith in these young players, but happy. Content.
It would have been nice if De Laet, Macheda, Obertan or Welbeck grabbed our second, but I was more than happy to see another expert strike from Gibson. Let’s not forget this is a lad who was playing for Ireland against France a couple of weeks ago in their crucial World Cup qualifier and who scored our winning goal on the final day of last season. Will he one day be a first team regular? He’s just turned 22-years-old, who knows, but we certainly shouldn’t claim he definitely won’t make it.
So back to the question being posed by this article, was Ferguson wrong to play the kids in Europe? If we are to be short-sighted and one-dimensional, then yes. We want to finish top of the group and that has been made more difficult by our failure to get a result against Besiktas. However, the long-term effects of Ferguson’s decision could be unimaginably important to the development of these players and the future of our club. And maybe we started to see the beginning of that in our 2-0 victory over a full-strength Spurs side, who will probably finish in the top four this season. Maybe.
Fergie is never wrong.
the big thing is that the gaffer sees his players in trainin every day, he knows if they look tired or have a bad attitude in trainin (nani?) or just don’t look up to it (tosic?). Therefore his opinion is the most informed added to the fact he’s forgotten more about football than we could hope to learn means that u just trust his judgement 99% of the time. I liked the point about scholes et al not breakin into the team till they were 22, the other point i think lots of fans forget is that when these lads did make it, it was ok for them to be in the best players in the country, now they have to be in the best players in the world, such is the strength of the league now and the clubs ambitions in europe. which means less time to develop and settle into the team and more pressure
putting so much emphasis on our youth is one of the reasons i love united. and in no way do i already expect them to be the best players in the world like ronaldo or even rooney (when he first burst on to the scene, my dad pointed him out to me and said he’s going to be one of the best players in the world in a few years). but just because they are not of that level yet, as fergie loves to keep saying- in no way are they the finished article!
off topic- luis fabiano says he admires fergie- http://goal.com/en-gb/news/2558/news/2009/12/03/1663666/luis-fabiano-i-really-admire-manchester-united-manager-sir
i wouldn’t mind having him at all! that man is deadly!
I always wonder why we are searching players outside the prem league..Lennon is one of the outstanding winger and i always fancied of him playing for United..Any possibility though?
@stretford972
exactly, mate!
everyone is entitled to voice their opinion on here, but at the end of the day, who knows more about united than fergie and his staff? the man has built new dynasties over and over again, he obviously knows more about winning football teams and players than anyone in history.
after ronaldo donned the no. 7 shirt and only got 6 and 9 goals his first two years (in 90!! overall appearances for the club at that point) i thought fergie had gone bonkers for showing him so much faith.
a pile of trophies, personal honors, and 80mil later, and fergie is proved to be a genius yet again.
@jellybean
i like fabiano, it would be fun to see a brazilian striker with united, but i think fergie wouldn’t pay over the odds for a player 29 years old, and he will cost much money to sign.
aig alex is god
thanks mate. i’m concerned what is going to happen to tosic. i think tosic is talented and has a future at the club. maybe if he is in his early 20’s we might give him a go. mate the thing i don’t understand is how it can be leaked to the press so openly and in the manner the situation was conducted. it’s so weird seeing fergie drop a young talent like this. it will be interesting to what he has to say in his press conference tomorrow. it’s so sad knowing a promising talent was in dreamland after hearing he will join united and play for the biggest club in the world then this happens it’s so sad.:-(
the man u thing that should not be said my long winded reason for that has just been approved and If you dont really dont know the full real reason why not to call you Manchester United man u. its on http://therepublikofmancunia.com/ron-i-dont-want-to-play-against-friends-at-united and I think Everyone should read it
ghtt- i guess i should just be happy that my friends don’t say “manure”. but yeah, even one or two of my friends who support utd keep saying “man u”, despite my many efforts to correct them! respect to ron, i almost like him a little more now that he’s gone (his crying used to annoy the living crap out of me while he was here). but honestly, ron has absolutely NO reason to ever bad mouth utd or fergie. it was here that he became the best player of the year, and it was here that he made his name. he owes as much to us as we do to him.
rooninho- yeah, i know fergie’d never get him. he’d say we already have 3 strikers and kiko, but one can only hope
ok, so realistically, since it looks like we’re not adding anyone in january, do you all think we can win the league? i think we can, but it mainly depends on 3 things.
a) our consistency- cept for a few blips, we’ve been pretty consistent this season, so i think we can carry on an unbeaten run for a while.
b) chelsea’s form- once their players leave for the ACON, it’s possible for them to lose points. but they are only playing mid-table teams…but it’s still possible for them to lose points, like they did at wigan. and losing to the Rovers yest, even if it was only in the cc.
c) rooney’s form- if he’s injured, or goes through bad form, it’s going to be patchy for us…..
this year, i would prefer to win the league over the CL. 4 on the trot!!! but if it doesn’t happen, it’s ok…we’ll probably win it next year.
i can see saf wouldn’t do wenger. the difference between them is saf will put senior player to guide his youngster. while wenger love to show his genius with almost all kids in his team. there is no harm to play citeh with 3-4 young players.
Great read scott.
Another important thing to remember is the power of a loss. United have been built on the winning mentality, so when the team loses, it is ingrained that that is a feeling that no one at the club wants to experience again. They then go forward and fight to win again.
The reason I bring this up, is because, it doesn’t seem to be the same at other clubs. Arsenal, for one, always seem to lose the plot after a loss. Its almost like they expect to win every game, and don’t work on the issues that caused them to lose.
These players will repay the manager for their confidence in them and will also be better players for the loss in Europe.
@@aig alex is god
I do agree with you. Talking about talent and macheda being 18 and will keep improve then what happen to ljajic is really disgraceful. It makes me concern of what is going to happen to this club with so much debt. 700M. I dont know what will happen. This is really devastating.
@ Aig Alex is god & Hargreaves curly hair………Mike Phelan is taking the press conference tomorrow! Looks like we wont be getting any straight answers any time soon. I feel sick to my stomach about the way we handled this whole situation with the young boy! We have class & morals not like the red scouse part of Liverpool, I would never expect this from us, as things like this can ruin a kids career…what is happening to my beloved club??
I feel like I need the truth from the club, anything else is rubbish!!!
Rewind – Lets not get ahead of ourselves! None of us has a single clue what’s gone on behind closed doors…so lets stop all this “sick to the stomach” and “it’s a disgrace” nonsense we’re hearing from some posts on here. You’re reacting just like the press want you to react. Lets keep the hysterionics for another day!
mikekelly12 – Spot on pal. Just said the same on another post. Fucking hell you would think they were Ljijacs parents the way peple are going on. Drama queens. Also just because Fergie didn’t want to spend ten million on an unknown who he considers no better than players we already have all of a sudden the debt crops up again. Once again it will be FUCK ALL to do with money.
King Eric – Your right pal…..the only reason people are mentioning the debt is because Partizan have seen there arse because they’re missing out on £10million for a teenager. They’re the ones who leaked the story and they’re the ones who said it’s because of money…..now tell me this, does anyone really believe that Partizan would have any idea about our financial situation, or more to the point, that anyone at United would discuss our finances with another club?! Exactly. Now lets stop all this bullshit finance propeganda and wait to hear why SAF has decided not to spend £10m on a teenager….maybe he wants to earmark that money elsewher in January? Just a thought?!
KE — I haven’t gone through all of the posts so forgive me if this has already been thrown out there, but do you think Cleverly’s form might have changed SAF’s mind? We have what appears to be an excellent young creative talent who is scoring goals for fun from midfield already on the books, so lets just save the cash and promote him, instead of trumping on what could be a potential 10 mil gamble on someone who might not adapt to life in England…
Saying that of course, it would suck if Ljaic is as good as the hype and he gets signed by some other cunts (like pool…)
boys, seriously, if ur 10millions worth of 17 year old, u gotta be doin somethin in a big league, i’m talkin at least portugal, russia, holland even scotland. Not serbia, when u last see a serbian team in the champs league? Shit, u even see scottish teams in the champs league. And its 10 MILLION POUNDS. When we got obertan lookin good already and the boss not fancyin tosic who was the star of the same league. Don’t get how people are surprised
I still rate Macheda way way higher than Welbeck
As do I, Marq
Drew – Yes I do think that mate. Along with the exciting performances of Obertan and Gibsons development. Not to mention the likes of Morrison, Eikrem, James etc
Scott – great article! One that totally encapsulates the spirit of who United are and what the club (and the fans) should stand for .. solidarity, and a single-bloody-mindedness to excel via a mixture of homegrown talent and acquiring quality players.
Side note – I would also like to gather all this positive vibe going around this particular thread atm to draw the attention of all Utd fans to an oft-spoken topic .. Ben Foster.
Yes, while this post was about the future of Utd’s youth players (and Foster isnt exactly young at the age of 26), the general consensus that I am able catch from all Utd fans here are that…in UTd we trust..and in Fergie we trust!
I would be the first to say that Foster hasnt exactly grabbed his chances this season to show us what he is really capable of (and oh how many chances there were..>.<). However, I would also lay the blame partially on us fans as well.
I somehow get the sinking feeling that whenever Foster steps onto the field, there is always this negative vibe that every Utd fan is just WAITING for him to make a mistake. I believe this sentiment is true not just from the fans in the stadium, but fans WORLDWIDE. And ladies and gents, this is the kind of vibe that doesnt do him any favours nor gives him the confidence that he needs to perform.
Professional footballers arent machines..they are human beings with emotions and feelings as well.
I guess what i intended to say in my rather long winded post is that..Scott in this post speaks of the relevance of Belief, Experience and Pain. All elements of which Foster has definately been exposed to the past few games. Which goes to say, they could either break him or make him into THE goalie that we all desire him to be.
The underlying question is..how can we as fans contribute to Foster's development?! Surely not by spewing the kind of negative thoughts that has been circling around the Internet (and im sure..around the stadium when he plays??).
And at the end of the day..despite Foster's BLunders (and there have been quite a few).. Fergie STILL believes in him..why cant we as well?!
ps..sincere apologies if this is off-topic. Just had to get this out of my chest. Been bugging me for quite some time now =)
King Eric& mike kelly
If Fergie did not want to spend 10 million on an UNKNOWN 17 year old then why did we pose with him and do the nonsense question answer session. All of us were saying how we are looking forward to seeing him and now that he is not coming we say he is some unknown 18 year old.i am sure we(the scouts) did not do all this after seeing him for just 1 game,we must have monitored over a period of time
Whatever has happened behind closed doors i dont give a damn about that. it was a different story if we had just told partizan we have the first option rather than calling him to train,doing a q&A session and posing with the club badge.The club has not handled this issue properly. if we feel 10 million was too much then why did we agree then? you dont expect 17 year old dubbed ’serbian kaka’ to make big progress in a year when he plays for Partizan and not united.kiko hasnt made great progress since march last year, neither has welbeck but we are ready to wait since they are young.
One question to both of you
Put yourself in his place and tell me honestly how you would have felt?
AIG — once again….completely agree with you mate.
I am not questioning Sir Alex or the club’s intentions.
I am more concerned that it makes us look like a disgrace in the public eye.And frankly, personally it makes me really sick to have that thing done to a 17 year old.
As a parent of a young child, I would feel quite devastated if my child’s dreams are taken away from him so cruelly after being talked up for the best part of a year.
I am sure GHTT here has grand dreams for his girl Emily, as I do for my child and as do all other parents for their children. For the young ones out there I am quite sure that you all have fantastic dreams for yourselves. Think about it, how would you feel if it was just snatched away from under your nose. It’s not a very nice feeling i can assure you.
And being the kind of man Sir Alex is, so fiercely protective of his players and youngsters especially ( See his rant after the press criticised the kids after the Benfica game!), I cannot help but think there is something shady involved and that he would do something like that to a kid. I am sure that this has been done beyond his back or against his wishes.
Just a few weeks back, Sir Alex is quoted on ManUtd.com saying he is looking forward to the kids arrival, THINK for a moment here— can his development have been deteriorated so dramatically in the space of three weeks so as to cancel the deal altogether!!
I am Man united through and through and Red till I die, and will still support the club despite this mess, but I cant for the love of God accept that this step taken by the club is right.
We all felt so miserable when we lost at Anfield….Hell we feel the world is at an end after any match we lose…just think this young boy dreaming of walking out at Old trafford with 75000 people chanting his name….A lot of us had already started taking his name here on THIS BLOG……just look at some of the posts made by the people in the last month here…Now all of a sudden he is a no good mercenary/professional…
Come on—-this is not what Man Utd is about. we are much more than that. This kind of behaviour is more beffiting of Scouse scum or the “small club” from manchester…
Just my thoughts…..apologies if they are considered irrelevant/inappropriate.
Cheers!
I do agree with aig alex is god and RedDevil. The debt is another problem we are concern. Without so much debt of course fans will be concern. The boy will be devastated and maybe we could have a bad impact on his career.
AIG – Read rooninho’s post on the Ljijac thread. We know fuck all about it. What is the point of making assumptions and why is everyone so gutted for a player they don’t know from Adam (no pun intended). It is football, it is a big business.
kel – Are you serious? We could have an impact on his career? Who fucking cares? If he is big enough and good enough he will survive.
Sorry to join this so late but I just wanted to say what a great post that was, Scott, well argued and backed up. I am always delighted when the kids get a chance and it was brilliant to see them dump Spurs out of the Lge Cup, although in many ways the Besiktas performance was better, apart from the finishing. I completely support the use of youngsters in this way in big matches, for all the reasons Scott gives, such as getting big match experience, including learning from defeat as well as victory. But there are times when Fergie gets it wrong, such as in the FA Cup Semi Final against Everton last season at Wembley, a match I went to. I completely supported the selection of so many kids then but I did think that with, say, just one more experienced head we would have done it, as we deserved to on the balance of play and chances. It was brilliant experience for the youngsters and some visibly got stronger through the match, such as Wellbeck, who I rate very highly, incidentally. They were very unlucky to lose on penalties (where ‘older heads’ like Berba made a hash of things!) The other thing I would like to see more of is the kids getting more time as subs, in ones and twos, depending on the state of the game and importance of the fixture. It’s tough sometimes when Fergie puts out an almost complete team of youths and fringe players because they have sometimes never played together before, so not only do they have to figure each other’s moves, they have to try to assert themselves as individuals. I’d like to see the likes of Macheda and Welbeck slotting into the strongest first team from time to time, to give them a real platform, which is more the way it was done in the Year of ‘92 generation. I also hope Gibson gets more chances, but I have a horrible suspicion the crowd will get on his back every time he’s not on top form or fails to score with a 30-yarder. It’ll be like Fletcher all over again if we’re not careful. He’s got great potential as a powerful, driving presence in mid-field.
On Lajajic it looks as if the whole thing has been badly mis-handled. Seeing what Mike Phelan had to say in the press conference today he came across very badly. One can see why he was regarded as an unreliable witness in the notorious FA case against Evra after the Chelsea fracas ( still a travesty of justice). Today Phelan seemed uncertain about the facts and ducking responsibility and ended up looking evasive. Knowing he was the public face of the club he should have got himself properly briefed beforehand. These are elementary PR considerations, and when someone’s heart has been potentially broken by a decision it needs far more sensitive handling and clear answers to the inevitable questions. It adds to the impression that the kid has been treated in a very cavalier fashion, which is normally not something I’d accuse United of in relation to youngsters. I feel for the guy who’ll be remembered as the Player United Rejected. I hope the way he’s been treated doesn’t come back to haunt us.
On the dreaded ‘ManU’ question, I would just add that , although I can’t stand it any more than some others here, it did start out quite innocently, before it was taken up by ‘Munich’ baiters. In the ’50s when I first started following United , there used to be ‘Stop Press’ columns , usually on the back page ,in most of the many local evening papers around the country where late breaking news items would be squeezed in at the last minute. If nothing had happened it was left blank.On Saturdays, late football scores would be slotted in there in the ‘Classified Results’ editions (Pink’Uns or Green ‘Uns, depending which city you were in). It was very common to see United abbreviated to ‘ManU’ in those columns, and there was no hostile intent, just space saving and haste. What’s shocking is to hear my wife still sometimes saying ManU all these years 30 years of me correcting her. I’ll hear her on the phone, ‘Oh he’s off to see ManU today…’ ‘It’s not ‘Man U’, I shout, ‘It’s UNITED!’ Does 32 years count for nothing??
R3 – the “problem” with Ben Foster has nothing to do with fan-appreciation (or otherwise); the problem is that he’s an agile shot-stopper but just plain shitty in all other regards – distribution, command-in-the-air, organizing the defence, and so on. His mere presence between the sticks seems to transmit anxiety throughout the whole defence which destabilizes the defence/midfield connection and, consequently, separates the attack from the midfield. He’s a disaster who has flunked his test. Next.
denton – Don’t mince your words mate. amusing post.
@ Denton – Spot on points mate. I agree with you that Foster (in the past few Utd outings) has not managed to convince anyone (myself included) that he is ready for top-flight football…yet =)
However, I am not debating his skills at this moment in time. What i was advocating was that we still continue to have faith in him AND the gaffer (especially the Gaffer) that both will know best whether he makes the cut or not.
And bearing in mind Scott’s post; that we as Utd fans should believe that Foster will learn from the PAIN he’s gone through with his blunders, trusting that this will grant him the EXPERIENCE to perform better in the future when he has more BELIEF in himself =)
As Scott also puts it rather succintly – “The manager of Manchester United believes in you and your ability. Wow.” Can we not do the same?
Cheers!