Red and White Kop: John Smith had told reporters that he believed the trouble to be the fault of ‘Chelsea fans’ – it was nonsense, clutching at straws. There had been fans of other clubs there, there always is in major cup finals, but not in any significant numbers.
The families of the 96 have every right to be fuming and sickened with the South Yorkshire police after their inept behaviour lead to the deaths of so many people. The idea of seeking ‘justice’ for their deaths is one we can all understand. I fucking hate the police regardless and if one of mine had died at Hillsborough I’d be as nutty about getting justice as the families of the 96. By failing to accept responsibility they are denying the families the chance to grieve properly.
Likewise, after Heysel, your club denied any responsibility for the deaths of the 39. John Smith (the chairman) blamed Chelsea fans and said it was nothing to do with Liverpool. This was a front your club kept up for 20 years until you met Juve again. You said sorry and put on a big fuss and their fans turned their backs to you, stuck up their fingers, and whistled. 20 years too late and 20 years of pain for the club, fans and families of those that died.
Without Killing Anyone we won it three times is not mocking the dead (like Munich and Hillsborough songs do), it is confronting your fans and club with something you denied for 20 years, something you blamed on Chelsea.
The very fact that your die-hard fans, the ones who were able to get tickets for Liverpool away at Goodison (so not some jonny-come-latelys from London, but season ticket holders with plenty of loyalty points), were singing “2-0 to the murderers” makes your campaign against me entirely pointless. Your own fans refer to your club as “murderers”.
It was sick for your club to deny Heysel was your fault, it was sick for your fans to mockingly refer to themselves as “murderers” but it is not sick to confront your fans with your past, a past you denied for 20 years. Would Juve fans want attention brought to the behaviour of your fans that day? Given how much attention Liverpool fans have wanted drawn to the South Yorkshire police, I’d argue yes.
—–
The chant isn’t in good taste, certainly, just like so many chants up and down the country, but it shouldn’t be lumped with singing about Hillsborough and Heysel. United players were singing it after we won in Moscow and whilst that was picked up in the press, there was little to no fuss made about it. If they had been singing about Hillsborough though, it would have been a completely different matter, and rightly so.
Whilst I imagine the Liverpool fans who were there that day have a heavy heart about what happened and several of the fans involved were prosecuted, the fact is Liverpool FC’s official stance was it was nothing to do with them, and it took them 20 years to say otherwise. Had they accepted their responsibility, instead of pointing a finger at Chelsea and the stadium, the chant probably never would have been created, but that’s not what happened. You could argue that because Liverpool FC accepted blame four years ago when the clubs met, the song should no longer be sung. But now it is more about our European Cup record, winning our third in 2008, than anything to do with Liverpool or Heysel. I can’t imagine many people who sing it are doing so in reference to the actions of Liverpool fans, rather see it as a song which celebrates how many European Cups we’ve won.
You could also argue that Heysel has nothing to do with us so we have no place to sing about it, but I disagree. Firstly, I think that any footballing tragedy has an effect on football fans. Whilst we don’t know what would have happened if our fans had been at Hillsborough that day, we do know that better performances from United could have meant we were there that day. It’s something you can relate to. When the anniversary took place last year and you saw parents of children who died at Hillsborough, you’d be a monster not to feel any compassion for them. When you’re a football fan, an incident doesn’t have to happen to your club for you to have a reaction to or opinion of it. Secondly, they are our rivals, and football fans sing about their rivals. Liverpool fans sing about Chelsea not having any history, but what’s that got to do with them how many trophies Chelsea have won? Thirdly, Heysel denied us, amongst many other English clubs, the opportunity to play in Europe, after their fans got our clubs banned.
Essentially, the song may not be for you, I’m not trying to force it down your throat or tell you that you should sing it, rather I’m explaining the reason why it is sung by our fans. You may not agree with it and that is fair enough, but this song is not about mocking the dead, it’s remembering what Liverpool FC denied and celebrating our success in Europe.
Man Utd News 24/7
very well said scott..
i read each and every word of that about 4 time each
great right up and so true
i also think that Heysel had something to do with us
the worlds best fooball mind had just taking the managers job at united the season after, spending money to improve his side with 2 great first signings Viv Anderson from Arsenal for £250,000, and Brian McClair from Celtic for £850,000. united we’re second from bottom when sir alex took over In 1987-88, United finished runners-up in the league and finished nine points behind champions Liverpool (who had led by as many as 16 points at one stage). he had started to improve and build a team. good times ahead for united However, United were unable to compete in the 1988-89 UEFA Cup as UEFA voted to continue the ban on English clubs in European competitions for a fourth season because of what liverpool fans did. united had a team that could take on europe with the return of Mark Hughes after his spell abroad at Barcelona and Bayern Munich. At the same time, Ferguson brought in Aberdeen goalkeeper Jim Leighton after Gary Bailey had retired through injury, Chris Turner failed to impress, and Gary Walsh was ruled out of action for long periods of time due to injury after a highly promising start to his career. This team were not allowed in europe becasue of what someone else did.Imagine if united could not sign Messi because chelseas transfair ban. that united team was red hot lead by Brian McClair who scored 24 First Division goals for United in his first season at the club, and was the club’s highest scorer in a single season since George Best some 20 years earlier. Liverpool took this team away from europe and uniteds team grew With Irwin cantona and the rest entering the side that could only play a handful ,3 if m not wrong, of none english players because of what liverpool fans had done
My question was never answered.
How would Matt Busby feel about this chant?
scott
did i get the 3rd point out before you???
me thinks i may
Very well written, Scott. In complete agreement.
Well argued case, Scott. Good post from GHTT too about how the post-Hysel ban affected United.
empireofthekop
warning to real football fans try not click this link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlHMyp_jIyw
It saddens me that some would send him emails with Munich reference which I believe is wrong but it upsets me that Scott’s immaturity fuels this kind of hatred. I really wish the F.A. does something about these kind of chants like they did with racist ones, CCTV should be used and those who chant about Munich, Hillsborough or Heysel should be banned for life.
empireofthekop
before you complain about “without killing anyone” why dont you advise your own fellow supporters to stop singing munich chants? and to stop bringing blow up areoplanes to Old Trafford?
your self pity is ridculous, our “without killing anyone” chants doesnt mock hillsborough it isnt even about that and you know it, your fans killed 39 Juve supporters FACT. yet you never say RIP to them or anything yet when it comes to the 96 your screaming for justice. hillsborough was a terribe accident, as was Heysel, but when someone stands up for the victims of Heysel you claim its an attack on you.
WITHOUT KILLING ANYONE WE’VE WON IT THREE TIMES!***
Empire of the Kop – it’s nothing to do with immaturity. You may think it’s wrong that readers of your website send me abusive e-mails, but you had to know that would be a result of you starting this campaign. You pointed a load of rabid Liverpool supporters in my direction, and now have the nerve to come on my website talking about my immaturity and Sir Matt Busby. Fuck you. It’s easy for you to say you don’t agree with it, but it’s not you that’s getting abusive e-mails on a daily basis, is it? Well done though!
Heysel songs are not comparable to Munich or Hillsborough chants, for the one millionth time. It’s not taking the piss out of or laughing at the innocent people that died, like Hillsborough and Munich chants are. Get that through your head – there’s a whole article above which explains that in very clear detail.
We are right to be proud that we do not have the reputation that Liverpool has throughout the UK and Europe. Our achievements have always been for the right reasons and never tainted by murder and mayhem.
Liverpool is a sullied name and one that leaves the bitter copper taste of blood in the mouth everytime it is spoken.
They may not like it, but it is true.
Slander is only slander if what you say is not true.
Liverpool has blood on its hands and hypocrisy coarsing through its veins.
Liverpool is a land that steals and thieves and murders.
There are no FANS at Liverpool only ACCOMPLICES.
If they padlocked Anfield one Saturday and called it a prison then 95% would be where they deserved to be.
The other 5% could be let out and travel back as free men to their home clubs.
RATS > COCKROACHES> PARASITES >FECAL BACTERIA >LIVERPUDLIANS
Scott you are a lost soul. I will pray for you.
@empireofthe kop
your prayers would be better directed at the dead souls your club has on its conscience.
The KILLING & MURDERERS part refers to The LFC HEYSEL DENIAL SYNDROME. Nothing else.
this is ridiculous
Empire of the Kop – you will pray for me… and then you go and link to my site again so that I can receive dozens more abusive emails calling me a Munich bastard and wishing I die.
Go fuck yourself you hypocritical cunt.
You’ve argued your case well and exposed the inaccuracy and hypocrisy of the Liverpool fans’ complaints, but to say that the “3 times chant” is not disrespectful is frankly delusional.
OK it may not be disrespectful to Liverpool FC the way the Munch chants are to United, but it’s extremely disrespectful to Juventus and the friends and families of those that died. To argue that somehow United are remembering the dead through this chant is very difficult to swallow. Just because Liverpool FC refused to acknowledge their part in the tragedy does not give us carte blanche to sing what we like about 39 dead football fans.
empireofthekop
if you read what was typed you must see how much of a knobjockey you are been
just read the fucking thing
post something on a liverpool blog saying “dont call liverpool f.c. the murders” and then fuck off away from this site
liverpool f.c. fans murdered people
they call each others the murders
selfconfessed murders
but call a guy a ..name, i wont type it, because his site sell t-shirt that says united won 3 champions leagues and there fans hadnt killed anyone during a european game , which liverpool fans are proud of because its justic for 96 people who died in tragidy themselves
I was a little young and naieve then when it happened in 86.
From years of listening to Ueafa i honestly can say that they are bias against Britian. For years i have herd mindless dribble about THis and that which supports it..
I would love to ask a question to the board who decided this ban! Why did you punish a whole nation rather than just punishing the offending club?
Say for example Real Madrid are Playing Ac Milan.. There is crowd Trouble..Peopel die from each sets of support…. Would you punish all Italian & Spanish teams because of this?
Course you wouldnt!….
What also happened in Rome when United played their… The Riot Police were guilty of GBH…I just hate seeing sickening things like this in our sport.
I like a bit of banter.. Bit of a wind up . But when the whistle Blows its time to go home to the wife, Kids & Family…
I enjoy sitting close to the way support and giving them the finger.. Tauntig them.. Shouting Obsenities at them.. Laughing at them when their team is looseing….. When the whistle goes at the end and i see them outside their ground its all over and done!.. Although i do have a beaming smile on my face! The only thing on my mind is to get home to the wife. Kids & Match of the day!….HAHAHa
No wonder platini has still got it in for english clubs. I just realized he had to watch that whole thing go down from the pitch.
I just checked out the site empireofthekop. Lol. What a piece of shit site.
Are LFC hypocritical in their statements and support of John Smith? Yes. However I believe “Without killing anyone we’ve won it 3 times” is still below the belt. Satirical, yes. But Disrespectful and blatantly stupid. And this is from a 30+ years Utd fan.
Fighting fire with fire, regardless if that fire is the slow-burning, under-the-skin type does no-one any good. An eye for an eye? Well, to quote Gandhi on that one : “An eye for an eye and soon the whole world is blind.”
Quite possibly in the top 5 articles ever on this wonderful blog.
empireofthekop get fucked
@twism
“Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.” GHANDI
You want justice for the 96? wat about the justice for the 39, 20yrs they had to wait, no wonder they turned their backs.
I love United but i would never wish more than a defeat on any club. Fair enough u want justice for hillsborough, i hope you get it. Shame your club didnt think about justice for the 39 and their families, without Hillsborough i doubt liverpool would of admitted their mistakes over Heysel, sadly Hillsborough happened so we’ll never truly know if they would…
Hillsborough and Munich chants are disgusting, im a season ticket holder and i have heard munich chants and it makes my heart cold, but no matter how much i hear it i have never, and never will rise to it and respond with a hillsborough chant.
3 TIMES isnt mocking the dead, it sayin that liverpool disrespected them by lieing about it for 20yrs, something our club would never do and something i think Sir Matt Busby would be proud of.
RCWI,I know this is a bit pedantic,but it’s GANDHI.I’m saying it because when I read that word,I read it as a Hindi word that’s indecent,shall we say.
PS:Mahatma Gandhi has said a lot of famous sayings.lol
scott very well said.
and empireofthekop FUCK OFF u CUNT
i have to agree.
one of the very best posts on here without question.
i can honestly say that hillsborough never did, has or ever will bring me any pleasure and agree that losing a game of football is about as bad as it ever shoul get.
but…….
it might be in poor taste and maybe the famalies of those who died might not fully endorse what is sung, but bearing in mind there are scores fans that currently walk the streets of liverpool that WERE there that night and were directly responsible for the murder of the 39, and have never served a days incarceration for their actions, then being reminded of your disgraceful past and hypocritical stance since, by way of song from your biggest and most hated rivals, is a very small price to pay.
empireofthekop maybe someone, somewhere would pity you if you weren’t wallowing in enough of your own in the first place.
Same old scousers playing their favourite role – the victims. Surely the only club capable of causing death to 39 football fans and yet its man utd who are vilified for reminding them about it.
Empireofthekop – do you not think that your time might be better served organizing some sort of annual memorial or raising awareness (or even a few blog posts maybe?) for the victims of heysel instead of getting a silly tit for tat type t-shirt banned and inciting abusive emails. Surely this would show more of a genuine concern for the victims and would enable you to take the moral high ground next time, or is showing united fans up as classless half wits more important to you in a pathetic ‘our fans are better than your fans’ war?
“Without killing anyone”, if only that was the case.
In reality the t-shirts not correct, so it should be taken down under trading standards laws!!!
How do you guys deal with these delusional liverpool people? God i live 3000 miles away and i want to slap the taste out of their mouths. How do you keep from just kicking off in these punks asses on a daily basis? You guys are better men than me.
Empireofthekop>cunt
we’ve won it 3 times,
we’ve won it 3 timeeesss,
WITHOUT KILLING ANYONE
we’ve won it 3 times.
scot- at the end of the day they are all nobs, hillsborough was caused by the scousers fighting their way in, munich was a plane dissaster that killed some of the countries finest players who would have played and won for england. united got munich chants touted at them ever since. i don’t feel compasion to pricks who gave our club shit all them years, leeds liverpool and city fans don’t even no their history about the munich chants.
i no this aint about hillsborough my point is just even if it was they still got no case
We support you Scott.
ManUtdPeople are 100% behind Scott The Red
Tufty, you are a scouse cunt. its no wonder your website is going down the pan.
your an embaressment to all United supporters.
Red-Manc
Insutling somebody for no reason isnt embarrasing at all
SteRDLK – Bit touchy aren’t you? All Tufty ever does when he comes on here is come out with a smug smart arse comment. Which is his website? Patronising cunt.
Stretford End Flags,King Eric.
Scott – this scally is simply using this controversy to ride on your coat-tails pal. He’s just using this hook to drive traffic back and forth to his own piss poor site – don’t give him the fuel.
Keep up the good work.
IRWA!
I’m a lifelong United fannd regular visitor to Old Trafford. I feel ashamed that our fans sing this song and ashamed that our fans defend it.
It’s nothing to do with Munich songs or the actions of any other fans. Singing songs about the tragic loss of life is outrageous and that’s as far as the debate goes.
In what world is what I typed touchy? I made a simple observation
And his website link is Stretford End Flags. Yeah, what a Scouser!!!
The english take hating each other to a new level, but then again without that there’s no USA so….
i had this arguement with some of my dipper friends,they still deny all responsibility.
Onemanunited is behind you too! though we’r not that big yet,lol.
Anyways, Scott ur amazing! I just wonder how can a person have write this!
keep it up!
we can abt anything to our rivals!
excelently written article. I seems quite obvious that the scousers are becomming frustrated with the lack of domestic success and becomming jealous of a far more superior team taking their mantle as best english team. Not that in any way can they lay claim to being the best english team when clubs such as blackburn rovers and leeds united have won league titles more recently that them. They’re clinging onto minor victories such as their momentous day in April which they’re still harping on about. Get over yourselves!
“It is also praising our clean conscience for not having the blood of others on our hands.”
Go tell that to the family of the Palace fan Paul Nixon.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/c/crystal_palace/4313995.stm
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-831686.html
Anyone go to jail for that?
At least 14 people did time for Heysel, who has been held accountable for Hillsborough?
Oh and before you saddle it up and get on your high horse, my team doesn’t play in Red.
I’m ashamed of this chant and the views expressed by this website. Manchester United fans who condone this chant really should know better and are partially responsible for encouraging the sick Munich chants aimed at the club.
Christ, I don’t know much about United sites but I hope this is a pretty hard line one, based on the opinions here.
That said, more or less everyone looks bad here: EmpireoftheKop for trying to stir shite, which he must surely have realised he was doing. He is right about one thing though- that t-shirt shouldn’t be sold.
I don’t care what feeble argument is put up for it, it is disrespectful. What you think about Scousers doesn’t matter, appropriating another club’s tragedy (Juve’s), and by extension any tragedy, for a boast is extremely distasteful.
It is nice to see some fans have came out against the tenuous support of this song and its associated paraphenalia and some of the less tasteful comments on this board.
…and before anyone tries to be smart, I am fully aware of tastelessness on the part of Liverpudlians have openly condemned people for such behaviour (which isn’t always the most popular move, I’m sure a lot of people on here know that the popular move is to say ‘I’ve noticed our fans are better than every other set of fans for the following reasons’).
Well firstly, I’m a game going Liverpool fan… I wont hide that. Secondly, thank you for agreeing about the fight for justice (I know quite a few PROPER game going mancs that feel the same way, even down to the fact that they wont buy the s*n… good lads.. I know many more of your game goers that arent). Third, Heysel was a tragedy that should never have happened and cost the lives of 39 innocent people. But… thats where we end our similar views.
How you can say that that chant isnt mocking the dead is a joke. When did we win anything ‘while killing anyone’?? I’m pretty sure we lost the 85 European cup final 1-0…
And if you actually knew anything about the events surrounding that game then youd know that there was fans from Chelsea, West Ham, Notts Forrest, the ‘NF’… and dare I say some of your lot over there?! Read up, look at the videos and photos and look at the flags, its there to see… Liverpool had hardly fuck all to do with the NF… we were too busy winning trophies and rampaging round europe for that…. something you lot copied from us.
The 2-0 to the murderers chant at the derby was sung by a minority… I know, I was there. And was quickly shouted down by the majority of us with ‘Liverpool, Liverpool’… The same way that the majority of us shout the munich chants down whenever theyre sung by the minority of our tits at your gaff.
But then I could start on going about your place… Going in we get a single police line separating us from you and your lot singing ’96 wasnt enough’, ‘you murdering Hillsborough bastards’, bottles getting lashed over it, in the ground grown women smothering their face, the whole ground chanting murderers, you scouse bastards (always cracks me up that when your best players a scouser) grown fellas blindsiding 15 year old lads outside the ground just cos theyve got a Liverpool shirt on. Ive seen it with my own eyes. Youse singing murderers even when your not playing us. But thats the difference between our fans and your fans…You watch or listen to a Liverpool game, all we sing about is our team… NEVER anything else.. Your fans can be a fucking disgrace
Your players got picked up singing it in Moscow yeah, and yeah the media didnt do fuck all….. But again, you werent even playing us! So why sing it?! Would the media have left it if itd have been crystal palace players??
Which brings me onto the fact that your fans have actually got real blood on their hands, but no one says anything about that because united fans are the best in the league, defo the most well behaved. You still get the most banning orders in the league every season??
Some of your fans dont even like that chant (rightly so) Some of your fans are gobshites. But thats footy, every club has them.
Now im not a norwegian, the same as I hope your not a cockney or asian, and well never, ever, get on as clubs…. but youd be fucking surprised how many die hard, game going mancs ive met and got on with outside of football
But as one of our early 70′s firm said ‘We never really hated the septics, until we realised how much they hated us, then they just got jealous of us’…..