Following the confrontation between David Gill and a fan last week, as well as Gill’s comments about the fans’ “ridiculous” protests, it’s interesting to see what Gill used to think of our fans’ protests and the Glazers’ plan before they became his boss.
MUTV: Can you explain the reason why the Board have terminated discussions with the Glazer family?
David Gill: I think it is down to this simple reason: We have been looking at the proposals the Glazer family made, analysing them with our advisors, and the key aspect of that proposal was the level of debt they were going to use in order to make their offer. We felt as a Board that that level of debt, coupled with their business plan, meant it was an unattractive proposal. We’ve seen many examples of debt in football over the years and the difficulties it causes. We know what that means and we think that is inappropriate for this business. We need to have a sensible structure for the Board to take the club forward.”
MUTV: At this moment in time, do you still expect any kind of bid from the Glazer family?
DG: That is up to them. They will clearly consider their options and review what they should do and no doubt come back to us. But, at the moment, we have terminated those discussions. One of the strengths of Manchester United has been its capital structure built up over many years since 1990 when we first floated on the stock market. We think that structure is appropriate for football business. It’s also important to note that we don’t have an issue with the Glazer family. It is about leverage (using debt to finance an offer).
MUTV: And you are just awaiting the Glazer family’s response?
DG: That is right. We put the announcement out this morning. We have a decent working relationship with them, but the ball is in their court so to speak.
MUTV: What about the support of United’s fans in all this?
DG: We have very vocal fans and one of the key strengths of Manchester United are those fan groups. But they have to understand – and I think most of them do – that the Board has to consider any bona fide proposal for the company. We have done that and the fans have made their views clear. The Board has assessed the proposal with its advisors – having met with the Glazer family and their advisors – to see whether it was in the interests of the company. Some might say we have taken a bit of time about coming up with the response we put out on Monday morning, but we think we have done everything responsibly.
MUTV: Have you been touched by the feeling of support from the fans?
DG: It certainly doesn’t surprise me. That is one of Manchester United’s strengths. I remember clearly back in 1998 when Sky made a bid for us. There was evidence of that in the views of the fans. It is certainly is one of our strengths.
MUTV: What do you see as the next step, because all this cannot have been helpful to the club?
DG: It is disruptive, it would be silly not to recognise that. The statement we put out this morning was quite clear. In due course we would like to work with the Glazer family, Cubic Expression, Shareholders United and our other shareholders to work on a structure that we think will bring the club long-term stability. That must be our aim and is what the Board intends to do.
MUTV: It’s a pertinent point that the football pitch reflects what happens in all of this…
DG: Very much so. Our capital structure, for example, meant that we could move quickly on transfer deadline day to acquire Wayne Rooney. Throughout the 1990s we have used the operating cash flow of the business (i.e. profits each year) to reinvest back in the business, whether that be the physical assets – the training ground or the stadium; or the playing side of it – acquiring players and player contracts. That model is probably envied throughout the football world and is appropriate for us going forward.
In case you thought Gill couldn’t possibly be this hypocritical and that this must be a fabrication, feel free to read through this interview on the club’s official site.
Man Utd News 24/7
Love United hate Gill and Glazers
” We know what that means and we think that is inappropriate for this business.” his words about the debt are fantastic and highly smart and well taught about. but then something changed
something we’ll never really know what happened
but the glazers came the club got into debt and gills wise wise words to the worlld of football became hypocritical
Love United always, we can only speculate but Gill or for that matter cannot openly come out against Glazers keeping in mind the running season, ‘loyalty to employers’ et all
Hope the above volte face is primarily for that and the real Gill comes out soon (hardly likely though)
Another thing which troubles me is what is the alternative or POA exactly if not Glazers, the Red Knights sounds credible, but yet to see their plan clearly, hopefully things would get streamlined with more involvement of fans both rich and poor !
Gill 60% pay rise since 2004, thats what changed….
Completely off-topic…but, Ando and Vida are not in the Milan squad. I would have liked Ando to be in with his energy and strength.
Possible line-up:
VDS
Brown-Evans-Rio-Evra
Nani-Scholes-Carrick-Fletcher-Park
Rooney
Some fascinating battles in the offing – Ronaldinho vs Fletcher, Becks vs Evra, Rooney vs Gattuso and Nesta….cant wait for it.
PS: Yes, David Gill is a liar…sadly, most CEOs are. I guess it’s one of the things that’s required to get to the top…sigh….
What was the point of this story, I didn’t get it. The comments made by Gill were made relevant to the questions asked at the time about the issue back then. They are completely (or for the most part) irrelevant today. The article discusses aa completely different offer and the Glazers offer was again and again restructured so as to be accepted by the board. Gill says as much. Your argument and what was the point, looking forward to part 2.
I did notice the last two parts were ommited from your copy and paste article above were missing. About how it all is disruptive. Similar to now, its very disruptive of MUST and the other organisations and it could be argued that it is them that have led to some of the poor results during December. Remember if all the fans were behind the Glazers then the news papers talk up about the debt wouldn’t have any force behind it, MUST gave the papers that force.
Before you all go off on one, I do not support the Glazers, I support free and fare OPEN dialogue without predjudice and reprisals. Im not one to nod my head and agree with all and sundray who know nothing about finance, balancing books, read a column by someone who says he knows what hes talking about and quote him without knowing if hes telling the truth or what it all means.
As for the stupid interview with Gill, there is a link in another column here on therepublik giving you chance to listen to the full audio. Anyone who thinks that was an interview and Gill put across any point of view to be compared to with above, then quite simply your a dipper of the highest order.
“We’ve seen many examples of debt in football over the years and the difficulties it causes”. The debt at this club is a perfect example now Mr Gill, no? It is not just causing difficulties, it is dividing fans apart and is a threat to the future of this club.
Never Ever Ever Pick Oliver Gill For The First TEam
I Dont Trust Him
my dream line up :
VDS RAFA RIO EVANS EVRA
VALENCIA FLETCH NANI
BERBA OWEN ROONEY
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/audio/2010/feb/12/manchester-united-david-gill
heres the link and if this is comparable to the article good luck at school you bloody need it.
Better to stay away from this topic. A lot of disagreements between United fans. I can see why SAF was not keen to talk on this topic, it is very divisive.Expect a lot of disagreements United fans and pro and anti Glazer posts on this thread
Gill mentions, whos going to own the club then. NO ONE has put up the 1.2 billion pound valuation. Please understand people, Abramovich doesn’t have that type of money, we are too big to buy without incuring debt simple as.
Was it better under Martin Edwards, no everyone whined about him. So he floated United, we had money, no debts but it was impossible to free up money transfers as a shareholders had to be consulted. We could have bought Batistuta if the problems of being a plc weren’t there, we had the money.
I just cant see the alternative, IF MUST have found someone to buy United the ok lets see what happens but untill that time stop being an advertisement for a few business men getting free puplicity without any ability to do what their bosting on about.
Put up or shut up.
@GottaHateTinyTears
Don’t pick Gill for the first team because hes Gills son, you don’t trust him. You are a grade A prick, what do you think hes going to do score a series of deliberate own goals.
Knob end, a school child comment.
Where exactly is he being hypocritical?
Firstly as pointed out when you made a mountain out of a molehill about his ‘Ridiculous Protest’ he was referring not to protests in general BUT the proposed boycott of the first 10 minutes of the Home Tie against AC Milan.
And anyone who does this boycott or even supports it (And yes Scott I mean you) is being ridiculous and is infact doing exactly what these people accuse the Glazers of and damage the club. You don’t do protests that damage the team no matter what. Ofc it seems yourself and MUST are idiots and will keep backing this boycott and will probally also back Keith Harris call to Boycott season tickets as well just to try and drive the price down for the Red Knights (Red Knights who Harris initially told everyone they wanted it to Fan Owned like Barca but now they have Fan support he has gone back on that and now they are talking about copying Villas buyout which is basically just a leveraged buyout but rather than the ‘loans’ being from the Banks its from the Owners other assets. So basically they are looking to make their money back through repayments on the loans as well as dividends).
As for his comments about the debt, his initial comment was in relation to the first bid that the Board as a whole turned down. As Gill tries to explain in in the audio clip the Glazers came back with an improved proposal, one which the board as a whole deemed to be more realistic. You can’t use comments about one proposal and then use it against a new proposal. There was something different in the new proposal that persuaded the board as a whole to change their minds (It wasn’t Gills decision alone so its not the wage that has changed Gills opinion. Infact Gill wouldn’t have even known if the Glazers would have employed him and certainly wouldn’t have known his wage.)
@ GHTT, lol. I hope he is nothing like his father.
GoatinaUnitedShirt
that was a joke get a grip
@aig alex is god.
Im not staying away from this, it is a free forum to discuss the topic and it needs to be discussed. I need to learn more as does everyone on here, I’m not allowing Manchester United to be ruined by biggots.
i realise its no joy having to read some of these comments and no doubt I’ll get abuse, that the idiot thug way, every club has them, but I love United too much to allow a one sided argument to take place and won by people who know Nothing about what they’re talking about, miss quote things that are said, just to destroy United so they can say told you so. Its all very Dipperesk.
@ghtt
i readyou had an operation.How are you now? and what was it for?
Take care and dont try too hard while playing with Emily.
well… is it so crazily unreasonable to assume david gill has changed his views regarding the matter? people change their views over time as they understand things more… (o oh!)
@GottaHateTinyTears
I do appologise mate, heated debate again, alot of passion and reading comments maybe not in their meant context.
@GoatinaUnitedShirt
Hey mate. We have seen creative arguements over this at ROM. The problem for me is that we are going around and around and no one changes their mind anyway. In that respect, I don’t see the need for this topic today. We could look forward to the Milan game and why the likes of Vidic and Anderson aren’t playing. There will be another time to discuss this.
@Tony Starks
ho ho ho ho, you can’t change your mind, whats that. Once youv’e had a thought its etched perminently on your mind and your actions are guided like a stylus on a 45.
Out with the Glazers theyve been on Jerry Springer.
off topic: see United have left Anderson behind for tomorrow nights game? are they forreal? uniteds midfield aint that strong what with giggs out. they are going to play 4-3-3 with fletch carrick and scholes in the midfield, if i remember correctly carrick and scholes has a mare (as did many others) the last time we played AC at the san siro
@Costas
I only replied to the story/article, I thought we had to keep things relative and to the point and that a game day article will follow.
Im only too glad to talk team, has Vidic and Ando been training, they won’t be in the team if they’re injured.?
Can someone put up the travelling party for tomorrow please.
@Satz13
The Red Knights are not Credible as Keith Harris latest interview has shown. Initially he talked about the Red Knights wanting to setup a Fan Ownership like Barca. Now after getting MUST and alot of the fans to buy into the Red Knights with this idea they are now saying it will be a Villa Style buyout. Villa have a loan that equals the costs of buying the club plus paying off some of the debts on their accounts. The Loan comes from one of Lerners companies. This loan has to be paid back and Lerner is also taking dividends from the profits as well. The Red Knights (Who Harris has also stated is mainly London Money Men and a Few Northern Business Owners) are in it for the money.
Also look at what they are saying. They say it will cost 1.5bill in their eyes to get the Glazers to sell. We can assume with costs it will be closer to 1.6bill. They then have to make a decision do they keep the bonds with their £45mill payments a year and which in 2017 the bond debt either needs paid off or refinanced which if they do this makes them no different to the Glazers (Infact will make them worse as there will be 2 sets of debt on the club, the owners loan and bonds) OR do they pay the bonds off?
The bonds are for £509mill and while the resale values fell the bond owners are unlikely to be willing to sell them back for £509mill or under as they are guaranteed £45mill a year until 2017. As such to buy the bonds back is going to be alot higher than £509mill
Now look at the one Red Knight we know for certain, thats Fred Done. Fred Done is NOT a billionaire, he is just a multi millionaire. To buy the club each Red Knight will need to put up £33mill and then with the bonds being paidoff that rises to a minimum of £43mill (but likely a fair bit more). Someone like Fred Done doesn’t have this kind of money to ‘give away’ so he needs a good return.
They are in it for the Money, its why Harris is now asking Season Ticket holders to not renew their season ticket as if that reduces the purchase price they can make even more money (And Harris is no doubt on a bonus based on how much under the Red Knights max amount he gets it).
Change his mind he may have done which as fans we can do at anytime, but this man is entrusted with running the biggest sporting club in the world and he knew the dangers back then and nothing has changed.
Changing your mind or just aligning their values and business model to fit that of his improved contract on the take over.
Face it Gill you are amazing at what you do but you have turned on the fans because it doesnt suit your position with the Galzers who pay your wages!
We are protesting the very same rational as you did in 2004 so for me this is hugely hypocritical.
@GoatinaUnitedshirt
Here is the squad
Travelling Squad: van der Sar, Foster, Kuszczak; Neville, Brown, J Evans, Ferdinand, Fabio, Rafael, Evra; Valencia, Park, Nani, Obertan, Scholes, Fletcher, Carrick, Gibson; Rooney, Berbatov, Owen, Diouf.
I have a feeling that SAF has something up his sleeve…maybe play Rooney as the inside left with any combo of Berba/Owen/Diouf upfront? Otherwise, I would have preferred 4-3-3 with Ando coming in for Scholes…he would have kept Gattusso and Pirlo very, very busy…
I have to say I was always surprised that Mr. Gill (given his thought on the subject above) did not do the honourable thing and resign the day the board accepted the Glazer´s bid. I assume he thought otherwise when he had another look at his salary slip. It sums him up really.
I just can’t understand the animosity towards David Gill. He’s employed by the Glazers and he has to do what they want. If he’s not prepared to do it then he should have resigned. The fact that he’s still at OT tells me that he sees a time when the Glazers will no longer be his boss.
Some time in the future UTD will be under new ownership – the Glazers will have gone and hopefully Harris will have found either an individual or a group of fans with enough money to achieve that. And David Gill will be in a position to take the club further.
Had David Gill resigned earlier then by now UTD would have had a new man at the top. An outsider with no experience of the EPL, or perhaps Cooke from City or Risdale ex Leeds? Either way the club would be in a worse shape than it is now. Consider the fact that following Gill’s resignation Fergie may have gone too.
The future of the club post Glazers is David Gill. He will find the right man to replace Fergie – a man who can continue to give the fans the sort of football they’ve come to expect.
Quite frankly I’m surprised at the level of vindictive comment aimed at David Gill. Those making the comments haven’t really thought through the implications of a UTD without David Gill.
@GoatinaUnitedShirt
Yeah, I know you wanted to respond. Not blaming you for that. I was just echoing AIG’s sentiments about the whole situation. I want us to discuss all United affairs over here, but we could use a break from this particular debate every now and then.
Vidic was injured back in the Leeds game. He was supposed to be back in 10 days, but he hasn’t featured since. Anderson is getting a silent punishment for reacting badly after being left our for the Hull game. They are two vital players for us and it’s a shame to lose them like that on the biggets game of the season.
@doncobaino
It’s funny. Everyone talks about Milan playing with the same players in midfield, but we will line up at the San Siro with the same 3 CMs we did 3 years ago.
Albeit. Fletcher is not the player he was in 2007. That will be the main difference and the reason why I am hopeful we will win the midfield battle.
BrisbaneRed
I would have to agree with you mate, although I have been very dissapointed with Gill and is hyopcritical nature he is still the best man for the job.
He has to be a Glazer rent boy to protect his own interests and he is very good at his job so better to have him in position rather than come cunt like kenyan!
@rubito
Why should he have resigned. He was part of the board who rejected the initial proposal and who then accepted the later proposal. His and the Boards job was to look at the offers and advise the Shareholders on the offers based on whats best for the company. So initially there were major concerns with the proposals, these proposals were adjusted to a point where the concerns were either non-issues or significantly lowered. So the simple fact that the Board accepted it means that Gill and the rest of the Board were happy with long term stability under the Glazers proposal
Well done Scott… This article is a fine example of trash tabloid journalism. The comments made by Gill are taken completely out of context and made to suit your agenda.
@ GoatinaUnitedShirt & Wakey: Thanks for your inputs.
About the game, its disappointing to see Vidic and Ando missing again. Hope Vidic recovers quickly and Ando gets back in favor soon. I think the team might be:
VDS
Wes Rio Evans Evra
Nani Fletcher Carrick Scholes Park
Rooney
@GoatinaUnitedShirt
no problem thanks for the audio link
i was able to do this with it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC5Mz5W_JvU
I think its going to be a cagey game and not too many chances, I cannot see the benefit of Ando in the game.
I reckon we’ll play
VDS, Rafael Evans Ferdinand Evra.
Carrick in just infront of the two centerbacks. Scholes and Fletcher roaming in midfield, Rooney up front on his own with the pace of Park and Valencia out wide. Later in the match when we’ve run them down a bit Nani on for Park and Gibson on for Scholes. Keep having a pop at range, keeping the keeper on his line then swing balls in behind the defence for rooney and a runner.
@Arijc
How is Scott using this for his own Agenda? This is not trash journalism but more actual statements and facts!
Gill never wanted the Glazers to take control with their business model, the model which has led them to refinance us very recentley.
Every issue Gill had with the Glazers has come to fruition? People need to understand, the Galzers are only in it for what they can take out of it, they are business men and that is what business men do!
No matter how much we agree or disagree with the Glazers the simple fact of how much money they have taken out of the club to pay the interest and admin fee’s is ridiculous.
I totally agreee with BrisbaneRed & giggs11gerrard0. Gill didn’t want the takeover!!! And he has never fucked up as Kenyon did with Ronaldinho for example. We really shouldn’t target Gill. He didn’t want the debt, but still he stayed on after the takeover (which really made his life harder with all the debt). For all the critismn we should target the Glazers!
@ Costas
If i remember correctly, Fletcher was probably our best player that day..lol
doncobaino – How does a previous game from 2 years ago have any bearing on United’s team selection. Scholes and Carrick have been excellent recently.
my point exactly costas
united went out and purchased anderson and hargreaves as a result of the beating handed out that night in the san siro. and we dont have either to select. the only plus is the much improved fletcher since then.
It will be one close game i just dont understand why United are making it harder for themselves not including hargreaves.
no harm but gibson shouldnt be on the plane. im not ruling him out for the future but he is NOT ready for AC milan at the san siro.
doncobaino – Hargreaves? He ain’t fit mate. I do agree about Gibson though, don’t fancy seeing him at the San Siro. Gives the ball away too much in recent games.
@giggs11gerrard0
The statements Scott made were real but they are out of context, the statements were made when the Glazers only had 24%, and they came up with a proposal that he and the board din’t like. The final proposal that were excepted bare few similarities with the earlier proposal. So in linking the words said by Gill in 2004 to the poor interview recently they are in retrospect talking about a completely different argument and cannot be played off against one another to prove a persons actions or comments.
I try and give you a similar scenario.
Imagine Im looking to buy a car, a deeler quotes me a price of 20000 pounds, I say to him I’d never pay 20000 pounds for THAT car, he then goes away comes back and says I’ll through in 6 months car insurance and DVD players, I agree and pay the 20000 pounds for the car.
I’ve gone back on what I’ve said but surely shouldn’t be held to ransom over it. I did the best I could and got the right deal. ALA Gill
yea but can scholes play for the full 90 minutes king eric? dont tell me you are happy with this?
i know hargreaves aint fit! i said he was unavailable!
i just think anderson should be on the plane. its about time we beat this lot. four times they have knocked us out and its payback time. i just hope we havent shot ourselves in the foot with leaving anderson behind.
time for berbatov to stand up (i dont think he will start) but the pace milan play with should suit berbatovs game.
im excited about the game but worried!
@SimSima69
In the first leg or the second? I remember him being fantastic in the 3-2 win. I don’t remember the second leg too much. I have blocked it out of my mind.
@doncobaino
There is a problem with Hagreaves, but as I said in another topic, I think it’s time we started using players we have at our disposal. Anderson should have been in the squad in my opinion. For the record, what he did after the Hull game was very stupid, but I think the cold shoulder has gone on long enough.
If we all shit on Gibson and give him crap on here I’ll guarantee (just like we’ve all shat on Berbatov and Nani and Giggs in the past) he’ll score a fekkin screamer and break Milans net.
So here goes, Gibson is a clueless mono exspressioned donkey who if it wasn’t for his Gerrard blasters into row fekkin Z knocking out member of the United faithfull there would be a chorus of boos getting the silly Irish mule of the pitch and swiftly signing up for the dippers down the road as Gerrards eventuel replacement.
3-0 Gibson 72,78, 92min
Gibbo Gibbo Gibbo…..
@doncobaino: Agreed re: Gibson – way too raw for a game like this. Truth is he is not good enough right now, so of course he is not old enough.
@GoatinaUnitedShirt: Agreed with your analysis, except…I would have Valencia coming in for Nani, not the other way round. Valencia has more strength and that would come in very handy after 60 minutes. I am just a little bit apprehensive of Scholes coming up against Gattusso (potential red card)…I havent seen him lately, but every time I did, he was a fuckin monster. Ando might have been able to handle him better.
Any idea about what their starting line-up looks like? Their MF looks realy strong, but I have heard that their full backs are not much to talk of. And anybody seen Nesta recently? Is he as good as Maldini or Baresi at their age? Fuckit…someone should get hold of the receipe for the Italian Secret Potion for Long Lived Defendors and give Neville and Brown a pint.
GoatinaUnitedShirt
I understand what your saying mate absolutelty but their proposal did not change much when they came back in for the buy out and Gill still opposed.
Your scenario does not compare to a good deal in how the Glazers bought the club through a number of loans and PIK’s.
It is like seeing a car that is worth 20000 and wanting to buy it but you have no money to do so, so you go to the banks and borrow the money. You have borrowed so much so that the cars value to you in payments has risen to 35000 of which you cant afford monthly.
@Costas
I heard a rumour (cant tell you where from as I could have imagined it as I have been drunk lately), about Ando going AWOL in Brazil over christmas ALA Robinho. Don’t know if this is true but could have some bearing.
Lads,
The comments made by Gill about the glazers for me is irrelavant. These were made prior to the Glazers taking over.
Alot has happened since then we are a number of years down the line!
When the glazers took over he had a few options
1 – If he was totaly against it he could of resigned
2 – Expressed his concerns and if he received a positive response stay, if not resign.
3 – Lick the Glazers Balls and be kiss ass man!
I honestly beleive it was option2 and he received positive responce! I believe Gill to be a True United man and only wanting to do whats best for the club!
A few things to concider!
1 – Gill being replaced now wouldnt be a good option. He has the interests of the club ar Heart! if he resigned now a Glazer Kiss Arse would be his replacement. I dont want that!.
2 – Do we really want to make Gills Life any more Difficult?. No offence lads! Nows when we want to start concentrating on the Players we are going to Purchase in the Summer! I dont want any Simular Fuck Ups like there was with ROnaldinho… I want Gill and whoever else fully focused on our summer targets!
3 – How successfull have we been in the Glazer Years?…… Id say very!
4 – Have we been able to compete in the Transfer Market since the glazers took over?……… Id say yes!
5 – Do these protests have the potential to effect the Teams Performances on the Pitch?…… This is what fucks me off! It does in my eyes! I dont really care who owns the club as long as we are succesful and they back the team! The glazers for me have done so, We have had good Transfer Funds! We have been successful so what is the problem! I want the support at old trafford to be the 12th man, I want chants for our players and our team not anti hate glazer chants! At some point we are going to drop points in the remainder of this season, and during this match i am sure we didnt have a 12th man as our support was more concerned with Glazer than our team!
I respect peoples views, i have my own and the moment the glazers over step the mark i will whole heartedly join on the band wagon. Until then these protests have a negative effect on my team so im against them!
All i care about is United and them winning, Football is a business just like any other. Its the way the modern game has truned out. Some clubs are run by supporters and some clubs are run by rich fans, Some clubs are run by very rich owners like toys and some are run for profit. Unfortunitaly oursis run by profit but this not nessesarily is a bad thing!……To run a club for profit it has to be succesfull and to do that you have to put money into the team!………
Im sure a few will jump on me for my comments but hay ho!!…
@giggs11gerrard0
They are statements of fact though. Scott like MUST are taking things out of context to push an agenda.
You say that “Gill never wanted the Glazers to take control with their business mode” BUT the BOARD which he was part of ACCEPTED the Glazers offer. They didn’t have to and legally and morally were not entitled to accept it unless they were happy with the proposal and the long term future of the company under it.
The only way you can say that Gill is a hypocrite would have been if the board had continued to reject new proposals and the Glazers had then launched a hostile takeover. If they had done that and Gill and the rest of the board didn’t resign the minute it went through then he would have been a hypocrite BUT that isn’t what happened. The last proposal the Glazers made dealt with the conerns in a way that they were no longer concerns and as such the proposal was accepted and the Board advised the Shareholders to sellup
“the model which has led them to refinance us very recentley.”
Based on the fact that the loans were refinanced a year after being taken out and the fact that looking to refinance loans to get the best deal is good business I think its safe to assume that actually refinacing was always part of the idea. Infact I seem to recall a statement from the Glazers about the 2006 refinancing confirming it was always planned and that more would probally happen in future years. No doubt if it hadn’t been for the Global meltdown it would have been done earlier.
Also look at Liverpool, refinancing the loans has always been in their plan too and have done so a couple of times already. Unlike United though they are a badly run company so they have been forced to refinance and have had to do so at the wrong times and have lost money. We are better managed so we have been able to wait out until a refinancing makes sense
“No matter how much we agree or disagree with the Glazers the simple fact of how much money they have taken out of the club to pay the interest and admin fee’s is ridiculous.”
The Admin Fees work out at £2million a season. The PLC had admin fees accounting for more than that each season. Hey just being listed on the Stock Exchange costs several hundred thousands a year.
@WAKEY
Dont get me wrong mate I may be going off on tangents with emotion to rational thinking.
The refinancing deal was very good for us in terms the best of a bad situation of one which we should not be in. Glad they have done it but still the money generated from the club should not buy it for the Galzers. IMHO
Gill was opposed right the way through and changed knowing there was little to he could do to prevent it happening as the board agreed to the proposal.
I think Gill is excellent at his job and when I take my emotions out of the equation I realise this and better to have him in there although emotionally I can never forget in my eyes him being a sell out.
Also the admin fee’s being take out are a lot more than 2 million, also do you know how much we have paid in intrest for them?
@GoatinaUnitedShirt
Yep, that’s a rumor that was heard a lot at time. And with the trasnfer window still open, it was thought that he was trying to push for a loan deal to a Brazilian club.
agreed costas, im just hopin ando is going through what nani did then comes back a better player.
I think it will be 4-3-3 tomorrow night, with the choice of who to play beside rooney on each wing.
and the decision is also evans or brown, I would go for evans personnally.
@Scoopster
“5 – Do these protests have the potential to effect the Teams Performances on the Pitch?…… This is what fucks me off! It does in my eyes! I dont really care who owns the club as long as we are succesful and they back the team!”
Are you kidding mate? You dont care what happens to the club as long as we are successful? I dont even know how to respond to that mate, I really dont.
This is not about success on the pitch, it is about the long term effect of the club. Leeds fans probably said the same when they were in a semi final of the champions league.
@giggs11gerrard0
Buying a car on credit, like buying a house and a club of Manchester United size is for most unavoidable, so of course the car costs 35000. Maybe not the greatest anology but we must try.
You have to remember that they paid/borrowed 700 million to buy the club. What has to be taken into account is that was what they paid to buy the REST of the shares, they already owned a bucketload. They borrowed against them and a debt of 360-700 million on a club of value 1,3 billion isn’t too bad. I will admit I don’t know the full ins and outs thats why I leave it to people like Gill who the Glazers trust and so do I. If Gill is asked a question and he says the debt is 360 million I believe him, that is the debt accountable to Manchester United, the rest is Glazers debt. And they have various different investments that help with that. I realise money comes out of Uniteds koffers to pay this debt but we have to ask what we get for that money. Owners who do not but in, the same cant be said of Abramovich, Barcelonas chairman, Reals owner, Bayern Munichs owner, Cities owner, the Dippers owner, Milans owner, Inters owner ……. If we find a blockbuster deal that the business men that are the Glazers feel will better their product I have 100% faith we’ll get him, I’m glad we aren’t competing paying 30 million for Adebayour and Lescott and all these glorious tabloid golden boys.
Were in good shape, the debt cant kill us, its a burden but so is the Manchester sun shine, but we can cope, we will win tomorrow night and we’ll win a major trophy this year AGAIN.
@doncobaino
I have heard many fans predict that it might be Brown as right back with Rio and Evans in the center. Haven’t watched Milan in action, but if Ronaldinho plays as a left winger, then I think Brown is the way to go. Rafa did well against Robinho last year, but Ronaldinho is a different prospect.
Goatinaunited shirt,
Indeed the Manchester sunshine is unpredictable mate, just looking out of the office window now to that familiar grey cloud!
I agree with a few of your points mate i really do but I also believe strongly about the debt leaped onto the club for them to buy us is hurrendous.
That said we all know where many of us stand on this issue, massive game tomorrow so i will just talk about that for now!
I think SAF will go 4-5-1
VDS, Rafael, Brown, Evans, Evra, Park, Fletch, Scholes, Carrick, Nani / Valencia, Rooney
No matter who said what and when, the FA, the Premier League and the Ministry for Sport should have made sure that no football club is burdened with debt like this. This is simply a daylight robbery. I don’t think this is possible in any other European country.
As for the Milan game, I hope that I am wrong but it looks like Vidic and Anderson are finished at United. I would not be surprised if Fergie never forgave Vidic for pulling out of the Leeds match. Wouldn’t be surprised if his nerve problem was in his head. Anderson should have thought twice, before boarding that plane to Brazil.
I have seen AC Milan several times this season, and they were not to difficult to score against. Even last Friday’s result against Udinese (3:2) flattered them.
I will be disappointed if we do not get something from this match whoever plays. All we need is to BELIEVE!
LUHG
@giggs11gerrard0
Sorry i used the wrong name in the username!!
Erm 5 … The Glazers reigne hasnt as far as i can see effected the team! All i care about is how our team perform and that they are given enough support financialy to do their job. Until the Glazers get to a point where it effects things then i will have a problem.
Comparing us with leeds is totaly differnt. Leeds didnt have the support we had!
If you compare the Debt the Glazers have and the Resale value of United what do you think the difference would be?
I think Glazers debt = 700. Club has been valued at 1.2 billion…so 500 Million to spare!
Unfortunitaly the glazers are looking to make profit from our club, the majority of this profit i forsee will be when they sell the club! There is no way that they will destroy it which will lower the Sale value that doesnt make sense!
If i was buyign a flat to keep for 10 years to make a profit, there is no way i would do anything to that flat which would lower its value! Same can be said with the glazers!
Darron Gibson is a wonderful talent and if if watching mutv i seen he was in the reserve league against united id be hoping he’d make it to the united squad.
whats going on, my comments are under moderation?
@giggs11gerrard0
Point 5.. My view is that as long as the owners back the team, Financialy & provide a successful teamm then i dont care who owns it!
I can honestly hardly see the Glazers do anything to the club which would effect its resale value!
My view is that the glazers are looking to make a profit on the sale of the club in some years time. Simular to what we would do with a House, We buy for x. During that time house prices inflate when you sell you make a handsome profit! During that time there is no way you would do anything to lower the resale value of the house! I know the glazers situation is slightly differnt but them principles are the same!
Also i see the Glazers supporting the Team Financialy over the past few years, doing very little to effect the team Performances Giving us the chance to Win Competitions….. This protest does nothing positive for the team!.. Thats what im pissed about!
@Gotta hate tiny tears
I totaly agree Gibson is a big tallent who will not be too far away.
What will happen is that Some Fans fail to see potential and just want Top Class Performances Now!
These Same Fans Wanted Rid of Fletcher, Wanted Rid of Nani, Wanted Giggs and Scholes to both retie at the start of last season.
For some reason some of our fans fail to give young players time, Fail to accept that they are still learning and will make mistakes and fail to realise that in 4 years time they will be watching a special player!
We all have the right to be pragmatic, so don’t be too hard on David Gill here. People also need to bear in mind that when he made those comments, he had to be seen to be acting in the best interests of the shareholders. In other words, securing the best terms possible and demonstrating that diligence activities were being followed, even though at that point in time, the club was only ever realistically going to be Glazer’s.
More importantly, he had to be seen by the Glazer family and their advisors, as a man who was not going to roll over.
Look at all merger and acquisition activity and you will see all kinds of posturing taking place. How do you think the attorneys and advisors earn there money?
If it is listed company acquiring another listed company, then the wranglings might be over the % mix of share capital vs cash used to pay the shareholders. In this case, the board felt that the business plan needed a bit more work.
It is not as if he has done a complete 180 on this, he always stressed the willingness to continue working with the Glazers and their good relationship.
The problem remains that we have one of the most emotive groups of people, football supporters (and rightly so) trying to make sense of one of the more complex aspects of business.
As we have seen, it is all too easy to exploit this situation, especially if your name is Keith Harris and you run Seymour Pierce. I mean, don’t renew your season ticket….come on.
I firmly believe that if the club listen to the supporters more closely on issues such as cup ticket schemes and ST increases, whilst trying to be more transparent with business plan, then this will put this whole sage behind us. So over to the PR guys
@Trevor and GHTT: Agreed that Gibson is wonderful and is a genius in the making – by all means play him against Portsmouth or Bolton or Hull in the PL, but not for this game! Its like picking a tough kid off the streets and pitting him against Iron Mike or the Undertaker! That’s all – no one doubts that he has the potential!
I am going to throw it out there but I am mortified when I see Gibson in the team to play?
He is not young anymore and his decision making is awful, i hope he fulfils the talent we are told he has but I dont think we have seen it yet?
trevor
a guy i grew up with who i still see when the grandkids visit there grandparents on a sunday still gets stick for tell us not to get caught up in the hype of 17 year old Ryan Gigga cause he cant pass the ball to a striker. “his final ball is shit” the guy had got some truth behind what he was saying about giggs final ball but isnt it great that sir alex never followed my friends advice
@Costas
I agree mate. We dont need to go round and round this thing. The only thing I think the fans need to understand is that Gill is stuck in between. We can’t expect him to say debt (=> glazers) are bad for the club. He’d lose his job, just like the steward who tried to return a flag did.
Neither can we stand his hypocritical views.
He should have kept his mouth shut, and he made a mistake there. Too bad. I think it can be forgiven! It wasn’t his decision to bring Glazers in, and he’s just stuck in no man’s land.
I see alot of bullshit on here about ‘he said this’ and ‘he said that’ and ‘they did this’ and ‘here’s my analysis’ and so on, it sounds like a bunch of fucking prawn sandwich brigade has invaded the blog!! FACT some daft yank fucking trailer trash twats (no offence to any American fans who post on this site!!) bought Utd with borrowed money and placed the debt on the club, now the club is in danger because of it, so fuck the ‘he said this’ and shit, the fact is the fucking Glazers are bad for the club and bad for business to boot, END FUCKING OF!!
Right now thats out of my system, I agree that SAF will probs go with a 4-5-1, I reckon Scholes, Carrick and Fletch in the centre coz lets be honest Milan dont have any speed and play the slow Itailian game, so Scholes will get time on the ball and can run them all over the show with his passing. Fletch can put Ronaldinho in his pocket and Carrick can clean up the rest. With Nani and Valencia running at players down the wings, and Rooney causing nothing but problems for their old defenders!! A back four of Rio, Evans, Rafael and Evra, I think we should give them a pretty good lesson in modern football!!
now is not the time for gibson, which is why i mentioned him.
costas have to agree YET again! give me something to debate costas, all i ever do is agree with you!
We shouldn’t vent our debt frustration on Gill instead of Glazers. He’s been a supportive chap all along. Everybody makes mistakes, and so did he.
@doncobaino
Lol, must be one of those days I guess! Maybe the Berbatov subject could divide us, but I don’t want to open a can of worms at this moment.
Gee, your first paragraph illustrated my point perfectly. Excellent stuff – right on cue.
Aye its a can of worms alright, but my two cents are Im glad we have his talent in the ranks, i just wished he used it more!
which im sure most people would wish that!
like i said earlier big decisions ahead for tomo
4-3-3 or 4-4-2 (it will be the first one)
who to play on the wings, nani / valencia/ park
who to play at right back/ centre back.
isn’t it about time we beat this lot ????
@trevor
Gibson has to step it up big time mate. He is already 22 and there are many aspects that he can improve on. He has great shot but dosent get stuck in enough and cant pass very well.High time he should do that.Many have written him off but after Fletchers example i have learnt not to write anyone off and Gibson still has 2-3 years in which he can improve.With Anderson unsettled and Scholes reaching the end of his career(performances suggest otherwise), this is the best time for Gibson an anderson to take their chance
@Costas
Hold the Berba topic otherwise you will have to spend the entire day defending him from the Berbalovers, oops berbahaters.
Trying to clear up a few simple misgivings —
@ Paul parker, Wakey, others
Its not a question of “700+” or “360″. They are both right depending on your point of view.
its quite simple really — the debt on the club’s books is around 500 mn after the bond issue. If you include the PIK-debt which is around 216 mn after the latest figures, then it becomes the “GROSS DEBT of 716 m” which MUST and IMUSA are talking about.
Now if you believe that the PIK debt is not the club’s responsibility (which is not at the face of it…but in reality it is, as all these provisions of taking dividends and payments out of the club are to enable the Glazers to pay out the PIK debt when it matures), the actual “GROSS DEBT in the club’s books is 500 mn pounds.. The cash in the bank at this point in time at United is close to 140 mn pounds as outlined in the bond-document. So the net debt as it were , ie Gross debt minus Cash and cash equivalents = Net debt
is around (500-140)= 360 mn pounds
So as you see both figures are accurate in themselves.
NOTE OF CAUTION: I deal in facts and that is what I have been trying to do for the past month ever since the debt related discussions became prevalent on this forum, those following my posts for the past month in the various topics will appreciate that and hence I lay down a few more facts for you to think about.
1) Gill’s stated position that we are 360 mn in debt is factually correct but logically incorrect. this is because the bond documents also clearly state that once the bond issue goes through, around a 100 mn is going to be transferred to the Glazers, leaving 47 mn in the club’s accounts: A STATED FACT, not a possibility — it will happen. That does not mean MUSt’s figure of 716 is also correct — both sides are exaggerating their figures to try to put the other under pressure,
HOWEVER Logically MUST’s position is closer to the truth because the Glazers in the future can load it on to the club’s books (That is NOT to say they WILL — all I am saying its a possibility as legally it is their property)
A major reason I am saying this is that they must be depending on the United profits to repay the PIK debt —- which pays 14.25% annually as there ios almost no other investment avenue in the world at the moment which offers similar returns for the same risk profile ( I made this argument earlier also, because otherwise, our bonds would never have been sold at 8-9% — why would anyone buy the bonds at 9% interest when they could SAFELY invest elsewhere and earn > 20% (AFTER TAX mind you as income is taxed around the world, so that post tax it is >14.25%), believe me there arent such opportunities anywhere or the banks of this world wouldn’t be in doldrums!)
2) Goodwill is not cash….it cannot be used to pay-off the bonds at maturity. Goodwill wrtten-off every year can lead to tax-shield on the amortization part, which will be around 10-12 million a year but that is only possible in case of sufficient taxable profits. HOWVER it is not an inflow—just a saving in outflow which would already have been factored in at the initial valuation models.
3) “profits of PLC were lower than the after debt-service profits now — I dont have any evidence of this fact yet, but that is not a good enough justification: How about we would have increased the ticket prices and merchandising practices of the club even while being a PLC —- then we could have higher profits without the excessive debt-burden??
(though I accept there are other benefits of being privately owned as well, but the question as well put by Paul Parker, is that is it worth so much risk and debt just to cover for that ??) because the profits could well have been higher under PLC with greater marketing and advertising effort and higher prices as they are now…..
You keep talking about “Listing fees” which is a few hundred thousand pounds…..what about the hedging costs and derivative losses on the currency….which was around 35 million last year alone. And with the currencies playing havoc and being so volatile….there could be more such losses in the future…so there are hidden costs to Glazer ownership as well…
Once again I’m not trying to imply that all is bad. Just that there is too much risk of things going wrong in the entire structure….
Yes plc’s need dividends or “red knight’” or whatever, but they are not mandatory….they can be foregone in years when there is little or no profit (say due to failure on the pitch in a season) but interest and debt service is mandatory… or the bond-holders can set in motion a lot many covenants, etc
@ Paul H
Cheers mate, I had to vent my frustration in a typical Mancunian way!!
@aig alex is god
Yes he does have to step it up i totaly agree. But what i also realise is that Stepping it up comes with Games & Experience
The biggest problem for the Likes of Gibson is that they dont get the chance of an Extended run in the first team to be able to mature or quicken the time they take to step it up!
When the likes of Gibson break into the first team for the odd game they become guilty of trying too hard and not playing their Normal game! The same could be said for Nani, Anderson, & the rest of them. They want to get noticed so that they are on the team sheet next week!
@ Paul H
I think that just because some of us can understand financial figures and concepts doesn’t mean we get the right to be deludedly-self-important fans or condescending in anyway to the others on here….
I too do not agree with some of the “murder”, “kill”, “dismember” kind of things that are said here, its not as if the Glazers have murdered or raped someone…. but to just come up here in your “I am a superior human-being tone” frankly doesn’t do you any favours.
If you want people to listen to what you have to say then you have to give them some respect…
Cheers!
bottom line gill has a very good well paying job his cheque comes from the glaziers.if he doesn’t want to be unemployed he has to tow the company line in public regardless of what he really thinks.i’m sick of this whole subject but whats the saying “never judge a man untill you’ve walked a mile in his shoes”
@giggs11gerrard0
“Gill was opposed right the way through and changed knowing there was little to he could do to prevent it happening as the board agreed to the proposal.”
He was part of the board, the board whose job was to advise the shareholders on what was best for United. The early proposals weren’t in United interest so the advised the Shareholders against the deal and kept doing so until the proposal changed enough to make it the clubs long term interest.
Certainly no-one sold out because by approving it they were potentially handing themselves their own P45′s so they had nothing to gain by approving it.
“Glad they have done it but still the money generated from the club should not buy it for the Galzers.”
With any buyout the plan is for the Business to pay for the buyout. I mean which buyout in football do you think was well done, most people will say ‘Villa’ but as I have said a few times they have a debt to one of Lerners companies on the books which needs paid back AND they are paying dividends to him as well. Even chelsea was done this way, although the debt has since been swapped for Preferential shares. Preferential shares are ones which pay out first and pay out a set amount every year rather than changing based on profits.
If they had sold assets or loaned the club money ‘from’ their other business and assets then the return they would be expected would be atleast in line with the interest payments if not more
“Also the admin fee’s being take out are a lot more than 2 million”
No it wasn’t. The amount was 10mill across 5 years of ownership so thats an average of 2million. And yes I know the intrest we paid 2008 – 45mill 2009 – 41mill 2010-17 – 44mill p/a (Thats the cost of the bonds)
“This is not about success on the pitch, it is about the long term effect of the club. Leeds fans probably said the same when they were in a semi final of the champions league.”
Our off field success has a relation to the on field success. No matter what some people want to claim the Debt is being serviced without a problem as we aren’t like Leeds (or Chelsea, City, Liverpool) in that we don’t spend more than comes in despite spending alot on players. Their Business plans are banking on the future ours is based on the present.
@GoatinaUnitedShirt
Yeah see thats another thing people always forgot that the almost 800mill they paid came AFTER they had bought enough shares to have I believe 26% of the shares so they had already invested a significant chunk of their own money.
And the initial proposal that Gill commented on after the Board turned it down was before they bought Magnier and McManus shares. This meant they had alot more shares to buy in the initial proposal and with Magnier and McManus having decided they wanted to get away shares they were able to get them for less than than the initial proposal would have budgeted for. The Glazers weren’t able to release the cash needed from other assets and the PIK’s weren’t an option initially so I think its safe to say that more of the deal was actually leveraged against the club in the initial deal. So there was fewer shares to buy and the PIK’s reduced the amount that was being leveraged against the club so the clubs debts went from being unmanageable to easierly manageable
@Gotta hate tiny tears
While he looks better in the reserves than the first team imho he lacks in too many areas. He has a top class shot but the game largely passes him by and his positioning, tackling, passing and decision making all let him down. He may still pull a Fletcher but he isn’t currently United quality and hasn’t even shown any signs of ever being so. Players like him who ‘lack’ that special talent need to make up for it in effort and detirmination and he has yet to show this.
@Wazza
“just like the steward who tried to return a flag did.”
The Steward didn’t lose his job for handing the Flag back. He lost it because he DIDN’T hand it back, he took it without permission and took it to his car. No matter what his intentions were that is theft and he was rightly sacked
still on the fence .. it hurts.. very occupied at work and all i want to think about is Milan game right now..
@ Trevor
I know what your saying mate but look at how Beckham, Scholes and the Nevilles were brought into the first team. All the youth get treated the same at Utd and you have to take your chance when it comes. Its SAFs tried and tested method and it works. Look at Fletch he is a perfect example, Gibson will get his chance again to shine and he will have to take it and then every game he plays he will have to take his chance and show he is good enough. I think he has the ability without doubt but to suceed at Utd takes more than just ability mate and thats what he has to show SAF.
I reckon he’ll go with – VDS, Brown, Rio, Evans, Evre, Valencia, Scholes, Carrick, Fletcher, Park, Rooney.
off topic guys, but vidic and ando did not travel to milan.
Red Devil, please understand that I’m not being condescending. I am using the ‘emotional’ postings (in this case American trailer trash, yada yada) to illustrate my point.
Perhaps it’s a case of, if you cannot keep your emotions properly in check, then you don’t deserve MY respect…
Whatever. As I’ve said previously, this campaign will run out of steam at some point. We may not be in the ‘eye of the storm’ yet. There may be more publicity, more g&g scarves sold and more stewards sacked before that happens. But ultimately, whether we like it or not, that’s where it’s heading.
And that is not to devalue or disregard the way supporters feel about this. Passions run high and that is part of the reason why United have been the fantastically supported club that it has in the modern era.
So the club need to listen a bit more to the supporters who go actually go to the games on a regular basis and allow an opt-out for cup ticket scheme, freeze the ST prices, or at least make a long term commitment to keeping the increases below inflation. The club should put in place the mechanisms to allow members to have their say and be heard.
And you know what? That would exclude many of the protaganists on this board i’m afraid. If you look back at the match-day threads, some of the most rabid anti-Glazer brigade are actually sat back in front of skysports, myp2p etc. Then they talk about how much they hate the parasites and other unpleasantries.
Now that’s messed up.
(Hope that wasn’t too condescending)
@Paul H
Now that wasn’t too bad…was it mate
See the point is, if there’s one thing common among everyone on here— its the passion and love for United. Now some of us are a bit more pragmatic/mature about it, some are fanatical and so on….
Your point about the club listening to people who go to the matches in a regular basis, although understandable is not a very inclusive one for a number of reasons.
1) All fans cannot get entry to the matches even though they want to and are able to afford it.
2) Many fans cannot afford to go to OT every match.
3) Many fans simply cannot go to every match because they reside in all far-flung parts of the world.
Now that does not mean they are any less fans or have no right to opinion with regard to the club.
You might argue that its the fans who attend the matches “who go actually go to the games on a regular basis” who are the paying fans…..BUT THAT STAND IS WRONG……
Simply because look at the percentage of Match-day income to Total income for the club. Its only a fraction of the total income of the club. The merchandising and advertising revenue is the major chunk and that is what is going to take the club forward as the matchday income is basically maximised. Not only that, it is the least profitable part of the club’s income-statement as the costs-revenue ratio is highest here. The expenses incurred to sign a major deal say with turkish airlines is very low as compared to the cost of sales of a beer or a magazine or the refurbishment of seats at Old trafford in percentage terms.
So we cannot ignore the voices of non-match going people as you are suggesting…
Cheers mate!
And like I said Paul H, cheers mate, I was venting my frustations in a typical MANCUNIAN way!! I guess you didnt get the subtle dig there!! I would have left it at that until I saw the bollocks about ‘MY respect’!!
Ive been going to Utd since 82 when my grandad used to take me to STAND in the Stretty end mate!! when we used to ‘lets go fucking mental’ and ‘lets all have a disco’ and have a great day out win or lose, and we would double up to get in, before the new era of success!! when did you jump on board?? by the sounds of it mid way through the 90′s pal. And Glazer is trailer trash, thats how he made his money buying them FACT!! And to be frank my friend I dont need, require or want the respect of a Prawn sandwich muncher thanks!!
‘UNITED TILL I DIE’
@mikekelly12
I had imagined the exact same lineup.
I know all of these comments are not about the topic of this thread, but it’s always the same people who only seem to comment on debt related/Glazer related topics. It’s good to see that many fans are concerned about the state of our club but there is more to our club than financial issues, and I am only saying this because it is clearly dividing fans. I hate the leeches and want them out of the club like any right minded fan does but right now we should be worrying about Vidic’s and Ando’s mysterious disinclusion from the first team and our clash with AC Milan tomorow.
@jeet
Iron Mike or the Undertaker didnt become Great or Stars overnight! They had to gain experience.
Its difficult at a club liek ours as the time we can afford to give experience o up and coming tallent is limited!
SOmetimes fans have to be patient and accept our policy in youth which has served us so so well.
@Fze123
Manchester United fans always have something to whinge at each other about mate, thats how it is. If its not anti american anti glazer sentiment, its prawn sandwiches and the non singing suits, or its Im from manchester your from dagenham your not a real Manchester United fan if your not from Man-Chestuh. or its I’ve been going to the stretty end since 1984 and you’ve only become a fan since the mid 90′s. To be blatently honest, we have by far the best club, by far the best manager and in my opinion alot of the best players, but US, the fans, were all dispicable bickering biggots who spend all our time shiting on each other trying to claim the spot as No1 original local fan. Manchester United, the club, does not have the best fans and I’m one of them. Shame that, I wish it was different but I suppose thats what success brings, division then fall, but no doubt we’ll find someone to blame it on, Gill, Nani, Berbatov, Glazer, the Maltese United Fans……
I love Manchester United not for the fans but for the club, its history and the enjoyment I get out of seeing them, talking about them and becoming the self proclaimed manager and see how near I am to it all. The so called hard core Salford fan and myself have absolutely nothing in common and never will. So all you forreign fans out there (anyone from outside Salford) just ignore the biggots and tossers and display where your from with Pride we out number them, we’re better than them because we’re inclusive.
@Red Devil – it’s not that the armchair supporters shouldn’t have an opinion, but I am questioning why/how it is often so extreme.
Yes matchday revenues do look smaller when compared to other streams sure, but it is hard earned money spent by supporters, it stems from membership, tickets, catering, parking, programmes, merchandise. It’s these people who have earned the right to have an opinion. And it is their opinion that I will listen to and respect, even if I don’t necessarily always agree.
Other than their sky subs, or the odd replica shirt, the typical armchair fan doesn’t directly fund the club, yet some (including many on this forum) are only too happy to moan about parasites and bang on about regime change. This is frankly hilarious.
@Gee – I have to say that I did wonder what you were going on about. My Mancunian sense of humour obviously isn’t in sync with yours. Still don’t get the trailer trash slur though. The Glazer family are worth billions and are amongst the wealthiest families in America. Anyway. One man’s trailer is another man’s mansion, perhaps? Or should be the other way around? Whatever.
And since you asked, I started attending games in the early 80′s and remember mainly being in K-stand. I did try standing in the scoreboard end, but at age 7 it was kind of difficult to always see what was going on, plus I nearly got squashed a few times during goal celebrations. Moved to the Stretford End around ’95 when I clearly jumped on the bandwagon and got my first season ticket. Glory hunting, prawn sandwich muncher that I am
Ideally, when folks abandon their memberships in protest at the end of this season (believe that when I see it) I’ll move my seats to the South stand – I fancy somewhere around the halfway line….
But I’m not going to get involved in a contest about who the biggest and best supporter is. I’ll leave that to the schoolkids and adults with a comparable mental age. I’ll admit that I’m not as fanatical as I was 10 or 15 years ago, and I haven’t been to any away games for years (unless you count using a friend’s City ST to watch the derby), but then I do have a lot of commitments outside of football and outside the UK.
@ Paul H
BLAH BLAH YADA YADA. Your not a proper fan or a proper Manc if indeed you are a Manc at all. If you were you wouldnt be ranting about armchair supporters. You would know that not everybody can afford to go to OT nowadays or can only manage a few games a season and that is why they can only watch on sky etc.. or that they are not even from this country and cant get to see Utd unless they are on tour, while the rest of us are lucky enough to get the chance to go and watch our beloveded club, it doesnt make them less of a fan than anyone else. Oh and for the record I spend time outside the UK as well with the work I do and guess what I dont come across as a fucking arrogant prick. Jog the fuck on you tit!!
@ GoatinaUnitedshirt
What the fuck are you ranting for you muppet, you have just shown yourself to be exactly what you are stating you hate, fucking clown!!
Anyway to all the proper Utd fans, no matter where you are from, what your race is or your situation, lets get behind the lads for tomorrow night and give Becks something to cry about!!
“And you know what? That would exclude many of the protaganists on this board i’m afraid. If you look back at the match-day threads, some of the most rabid anti-Glazer brigade are actually sat back in front of skysports, myp2p etc. Then they talk about how much they hate the parasites and other unpleasantries”.
Paul H – Nail on the head mate. Bang on.
Gee – Some good points as usual pal. I don’t actually think Paul H was critisising those who don’t attend per se, at least I hope not as I have backed him up. What he meant I believe is that the most rabid fans MOANING ABOUT TICKET PRICES, MERCHANDISE ETC are those that don’t go games.
@king eric, absolutely right, nothing wrong with following the reds from your armchair. And nothing wrong with fitting in the odd few games a season if that’s what your budget or diary allows. I like talking to fellow supporters across the globe – you are no less United supporters than any of us.
As you’ve picked up too, a lot of the angry, anti-Glazer brigade are often found posting during home games which leads me to think that they don’t go and in some cases might have never been to OT.
So that’s fine as I said. But I find it bizarre that these people would hold such strong or extreme views. Anyway, I’m glad at least you got it!
@gee – sorry I can’t take you seriously when you lose it like that. Anyway as you say jog on, which is apt as I’ve just pulled up at the gym. It was going to be an outdoor swim tonight, but as it’s raining here in Manchester, I shall jog on instead as you suggest chap.
“DG: Very much so. Our capital structure, for example, meant that we could move quickly on transfer deadline day to acquire Wayne Rooney. Throughout the 1990s we have used the operating cash flow of the business (i.e. profits each year) to reinvest back in the business, whether that be the physical assets – the training ground or the stadium; or the playing side of it – acquiring players and player contracts. That model is probably envied throughout the football world and is appropriate for us going forward.”
I wish David Gill had not received the bang on the head which he so clearly did after the interview.
Paul H – Cheers mate but your post leads me to think you believe I live across the globe and don’t attend games. I am a season ticket holder and live between York and Leeds. Just wanted to clear that up.
Nice one King Eric, I used “you” when I meant “they”.
I was travelling between York and Leeds myself yesterday on the way back from the coast after dropping my kids with the in laws for half term.
On the way up, I took a detour through Leeds so I could point out fortress Elland Road to them
They were more interested in the travelling funfair that was going on right next to the stadium. Can’t say that I blame them.
It’s a journey I do fairly often and the traffic can be bloody awful, so you must be dedicated to the cause!
In fact I have a lot of time for people who travel from all over the country and across the water to get to the games. I have 10 or 12 miles down the M60 and A34 to cover and get hacked off if it takes me more than 30 mins….
@ Paul H
You seem to think Im foaming at the mouth with rage mate but Im far from it, just because I swear and insult doesnt mean I am losing it and writing that post I was actually laughing at how twatty you come across (no offence intended). I will say its best for us to disagree and leave it at that. I actually laughed at the last paragraph of your last post, it was very witty. Anyway you would do well to avoid the outdoor swimming pools today and I might add the last month mate unless your balls havent dropped yet (no offence intended there either!!) And where the fuck did you find an outdoor swimming pool in Manchester?? I take it its nowhere near Wythenshawe!! otherwise it would just be a marina lol!!
@ King Eric
Yeah some of his points are good mate, no question!! but there is a way to come across and thats what lets him down (Again Paul H no offence)
Paul H – Yeah I have had to put up with stick , even now, from all the Leeds fans. They really are dining out on that win. Walking round with hideously tacky ” ManU 0 Leeds 1 ” t-shirts on. You would not believe how bitter they are. Awful.
Gee – I meant you made good points mate.
Sorry Paul, forgot to add it isn’t usually that bad a journey to be honest, just over an hour. Only problem is the eight o clock kick offs as the M62 for the last few weeks has been down to one lane in part. Get home about 12.45 am so it isn’t too bad.
@Gee – you’re right about that – it’s not in Wythenshawe!! Brilliant.
I’d tell youm but if I published the location on this site, especially as I’m about to walk in there, I’d probably find out what concrete wellies are all about and there is no lifeguard on duty at that time of the night
I thought briefly about making a post on my iphone a few weeks back, when I was 99% certain that I’d seen Bryan Glazer out and about (won’t say where). I thought, right, quick clip, upload to youtube and post the link to ROM.
But then I thought, jeez, if someone turns up to ‘do him’, say RTNK perhaps (no offence to him), that would make me an accessory!
So I went about my business and the phone stayed in my pocket.
@ king Eric
yeah sorry I did get that mate, I just didnt word my response right mate.
@ Paul
I wouldn’t go as far as to say you deserve concrete boots pal! But you should have without doubt posted a clip letting people know where Bryan was, that would have been a public service without doubt!
he know’s which question MUTv going to ask him. he know what he has to say. but y he didn’t gave those question answers what fans want 2 know.
Mutv ask him just like reading a script of a movie or drama. nothing much.
@ Paul H and King Eric
Some good points mate…..You’re right if you say that people who aren’t going to the games complaining most vociferously about ticket prices….that is hilarious I’m afraid
However, as put by myself or Gee above, not everybody is lucky enough to be able to watch our beloved team at Old Trafford for a variety of reasons. It is privilege for a lucky few compared to the millions and millions of fans of our club. And I still think they have the right to complain and protest if they feel that the club is in danger…..
I personally do not prefer the sometimes insane comments made here, but all of us get angry sometimes and say things we dont mean or intend and it has to be taken in that spirit.
Dialogue and discussion is the order of the day, we as fans need to educate ourselves with sides of the argument and try to think independently and objectively without being prejudiced by the comments of the people involved (David Gill, MUST, etc) or the media.
My intelligence tells me that all is not right (though all is not wrong either, I stress to add) but there are definitely danger signs and questions that have been unanswered due to the lack of a logical response….unbridled fanaticism is not the way, but at the same time we must show that we mean business to keep those in charge on their toes so that they know they cannot just fuck around with our club.
Cheers!